The price of HO locomotives / just venting .

[dragonriversteel]

Hello all,

With time comes wisdom...but wisdom can only go so far in this great hobby of ares. While looking through many pages of an on-line hobby shop, I couldn't help but wonder. What is the deal with all the DCC bells whistles and RTR locomotives on the market ?

As long as we pay the price for these over-priced HO marvels, companys will stamp out , the next big release. Along with an even larger price to boot.

At 35 , I must be getting old or cheap or even frugal for that matter. Although most companys are still prodcing DC models, without the bells ,whistle and do-hickies. But for how long ?

I know I know, either jump on board the train ,with the rest of you guys or stay on the depot deck. Geez I can't afford a brand new BLI RSD15 {DC} , not if I don't buy the wife a new ring.

Sorry guys ...just had to vent .

But really , how much is enough for a brand new locomotive with all the do-hickies. Do you folks feel the same way ?

Signed { getting cheaper by the day }

Patrick
Beaufort,SC
Dragon River Steel Corp {DRSC}

[ARTHILL]

There are still $25 steam locos. But for $100 you do get a nicer loco. $200 buys more. I just spent $400 for a brass steamer that I really wanted because it was nicer than $300. and less trhan $500. You do get what you pay for, but as better gets better, each step costs more.

You probably expected this answer, so here it is.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

They'll keep on doing it as we keep buying them. If people quit buying DCC locos and controllers, the price would drop into the basement in a hurry. I just can't see paying $300 for a loco when I can get an analog loco for a third of that.

[FJ and G]

There are O gauge locos for over 1K. Be thankful you are in HO/N (I'm in O and am broke)[:D]

[Paul3]

I swear, this topic comes up every week...

You know, I hate to break it to you, but you usually get what you pay for in this hobby. It's kind of a radical concept, I know, but there it is. You want bells and whistles, you pay for them. You don't want 'em, you can buy something cheaper or nothing at all.

It's not like this hobby hasn't had a "high end" for 100 years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't original Lionel considered the cheaper alternative to old Ives and other ancient manufactuters? And ever since the end of WWII, foriegn brass models have always been more expensive than white metal or plastic American models by several times the price. The brass models were more accurate, were (gasp) ready-to-run, and were much more expensive than their cheaper, more inaccurate American-made kits.

But so what? Nobody forced folks to buy brass back in the 50's and 60's, just like nobody is forcing anyone to buy BLI, Atlas Gold, or Tower 55 for $250-$300 today. There are still many under $100 locos out there of excellent quality, and several models under $60 that are worth having (and that's MSRP).

Worse comes to worse, shop around online or at train shows...bargains can be had.

For example, at the South Shore Model Railway Show in Hingham, MA this March, someone was selling an Atlas Gold B23-7 (that's with sound) brand new for $100 (I kid you not). A friend bought it, and it runs like a top.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

I examined a O scale possibility for a locomotive, 8 cars and caboose as well as some track etc.

I was over 1200 dollars. This for no sound etc.

I have steadily bought BLI engines and a few Atlases over the last couple of years because the price is right for a factory installed DCC and SOund. Not to mention that the steamers pull very well.

I work around the high prices by maintaining a war chest. When an Item is announced, I put in my reservation and start saving a little each week. A year or two later the product is released (Finally) I can purchase it free and clear without too much effort.

It helps to have layway and a good hobby shop with a little bit of discount.

One engine is a Brass Western Maryland Potomac in HO that retails for close to 1200- without sound or DCC. That is way too expensive for me at this time. So I choose to stick with what I can get.

[tstage]

You don't have to pay full price for locomotives. There are bargains out there. You just have to take the time to hunt for them.

And, sometimes, you just have to be patient and wait till the price comes down. That's what happened with my Trix 2-8-2 Mikado. I wasn't about to pay $600 (original list), nor $450 (revised and reduced list) for a nice locomotive. As soon as I saw them in the $230 at Tony's Train Exchange, that's when I started making inquiries. Found one on eBay for $220 and am very happy with it - even the chuff. Now, that may still be a more than some of you want to spend. But, as it has already been said, most of the time you get what you pay for.

With that said, one of my favorite locomotives in my small roster is my Proto 2000 NYC S1 switcher. Beautifully detailed and crawls like no other. I only paid $30 for it at Trainworld - that was over 70% off list. IMHO, it would have been worth the full price for that little switcher but I was able to get a great deal on it.

So, you can spend as little or as much as you want on a locomotive. You just have to be willing to look and sometimes wait for those bargains...

Tom

[Anonymous]

Patrick,
Yes, you are getting old, but aren't we all? Take a good hard look at todays engines vs. the "plain Jane" DC engines out there. It's all in the details. But its tough to compare apples with oranges (Athearn Blue box vs BLI) So lets'
try comparing oranges vs. tangerines. (Hey, they are both Orange!)
As an example: Atlas must be looking for you, because they are soon releasing thier newest series of GP-38's. (I forgot what they are calling them, Engineman series?) Stripped down versions of the Silver Series, with no grabs, no DCC, lighter details (Same drive). for about 60 bucks. But what is it worth for you to upgrade that engine yourself? Buy the details, paint and install them, install a decoder and lighting. Figure your time spent and the aggrevation factor, and suddenly the uplevel models seem cheaper!
Trust me, at 45, grab irons, lift rings, bells and air hoses are getting harder and harder for me to install, and I'll bet this will happen to you too!
Paul C is right! If it is sound & DCC you want, keep your eyes and ears open at train shows. I recently got a lightly used MDC RS3 at a show, with a Soundtraxx DCC decoder in it for 50 bucks! Bargains are out there!
As far as buying the wife a new ring, try this approach. As you are listening to your new sound equipped loco chug about the layout, comment to her how the sound helps your (and hers) ears experience how realistic the model truly is. Then follow it up with something like "Speaking of ears Sweetie, I have something for you!" and hand her a set of nice earrings.
It might work![;)][}:)][:p][:D]

remember, duck is not only a noun, but also a verb! [B)]

[simon1966]

I think that Atlas should be commended for the release of the Trainman line of locos. At just the time P2k has gone thru the roof, Atlas has tried to bring back some sanity.

[XG01X]

I've been very impressed with Athearn's RTR Engines. The roadnames available...wow.
I could be broke fast.
Travis

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dragonriversteel

Sorry guys ...just had to vent .

I see this term a lot in this forum, and others where American posters predominate. For the benefit of an Australian who is unfamiliar with your vernacular, what exactly does it mean?

QUOTE: But really , how much is enough for a brand new locomotive with all the do-hickies. Do you folks feel the same way ?

No. I don't. I'd rather spend a bit more, and get a better locomotive.

Cheers,

Mark.

[river_eagle]

In 1961 Athearn GP7 for example sold for $10, a brass loco was around $200,
a new car was around $2700, a great steak dinner was around $2.
In 2001, the Athearn GP7 retail price was $35, Overland brass could set you back $1500, that new Chevy cost you around $27,000, and the steak went for $20-30.
Loco price increased 350%, the best value, the brass went up 750%, but the car went up 1000%, and that steak went up
1000-2000% over 40 years.

Don't get me started on gas price then vs. now
My point is considering the advances in the last couple of years in the locos, even at $70-100 the price increase for that Athearn is pretty much on par.
As technologhy catches up I think loco prices will level off, and compare the detail levels of modern offerings to those 1960's version.

[Anonymous]

I have to agree that you get what you pay for but I also agree that the price of locos can be steep. I am just restarting in the hobby after 12 years. Just before I stopped 12 years ago, I bought a HO Kato NW2 switcher for $89.99. This was steep at the time as prices were in the $50 range and lower. But as soon as I took it out of the box, I could see the difference. And when I put it on the track, it ran so quiet and smooth compared to any of the engines I had ever bought. I am having it converted to DCC sound and repainted for a new life on the tracks.

I just spent next month's grocery bill on my first ever brass model. I could not resist, it had the roadname and road# for an exact prototype for my railroad. A Brill Gas Electric by W&R Enterprises. It arrived today (see other thread) and it is absolutely beautiful. It has detail that I cannot believe. It runs great (after I fixed shaft from motor to wheels which had come undone during shipping).

We spend so much money on building our layouts, why skimp on the very reason you built the layout? It is like building a gold plated highway and then buying a Yugo to drive on it. I am not a collector but I'll spend the money on occassion for a great engine when I have to.

[lyctus]

Hey Mark, our US cousins, and a few Aussies too, use the term 'vent' to express frustration or pent up anger, and it means, er, well 'to vent' ....to blow off (steam ?), to get something 'off your chest'.
I have a collection of 'affordable' PK2000 and Bachmann locos which didn't break the bank, are beautifully detailed, nice runners and I pop in a decoder and I am happy with that. Spend what you can afford for your hobby interest and you will appreciate what you've got without recriminations.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by dragonriversteel

Sorry guys ...just had to vent .

I see this term a lot in this forum, and others where American posters predominate. For the benefit of an Australian who is unfamiliar with your vernacular, what exactly does it mean?


Cheers,

Mark.

Vent is a nicer way of saying I want to complain about something or get something off my chest. Not anything against you personally, Patrick, but when we 'vent', that's basically what we are doing.

I'm not really going to get into the then vs now thing as today, I think we get so much more bang for the buck. Even without the bells and whistles and dcc, just the better way the locos run and the more accurate details (roofwalks and ladders on frieght cars for example). Okay, I lied, I will get into then vs now. When I first started Buying trains, an Athearn BB box car was $1.98 and an F unit was $20. Those were Retail prices. The last time I bought an Athearn BB box car, the price was around $7, about 15 years after that first one. So what changed in that 15 years? Obviously the price of everything went up but what came in the box? The same kit, basically. The floor snapped on, the doors had to be installed, the brake wheel glued on, and those same gawd awful NMRA X2F couplers. By NMRA standards, the wheels were always out of gauge, the coupler height too low, and the car too lightweight. How about that $20 F unit?? Ran fine out of the box if you didn't mind the rattle and rumble (which I don't particularly mind) of the thing running around the track. Detail was minimal, for $3 or $4 you could buy Walthers Detail kit and end up with a pretty fair looking diesel. Steps could be taken to make it run better but by the time you were done, that $20 loco had become a $50 or $60 one (remotor, details, replace those crappy wheels, etc). A lot of people were (and still are) happy with that $20 F unit right out of the box but it cannot be compared either in quality or detail with what you get now except to say that what you get Now, is that $60 detailed, remotored unit out of the box. Last time I looked, an Athearn Genesis F unit could be had for about $85-$90 (non dcc and sound). What do we get with that Genesis F unit? A highliner shell that when they were available, cost in the neighborhood of $50. Assuming the gears don't split, a Much quieter and smoother running loco. I could go through the same analogy about other versions of locos but I think the point is made.

Let's look at Steam engines.. Honestly, what were our choices if we were steam fans? Bachman (pre-spectrum), Mantua, lifelike (pre p2k), and Brass. Seriously, the best of that lot was the Mantua. You could take them out of the box and just run them and they kept going. I've never purchased a brass steamer that didn't have to be torn apart and rebuilt to make it run right. To me, a Huge steam fan, there's a LOT to be said about today's plastic RTR steamers. And yes, I'm willing to pay the extra $50 or so to get the bells, whistles, chuff, etc.

To those who think that Not buying them will lower the price, Think again. Not buying them will remove them from the market. Manufacturers, regardless of how much they love trains, aren't going to spend money continuing to produce something that doesn't sell. The thing that bothers Me more than anything else is the limited run hot wheels mentality that our hobby seems to have adopted.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here. Buy what you want, pay what you want, or don't. I've become very cheap also (around your age Patrick [;)]) so I've become Very selective about what I buy.

[Anonymous]

Venting is just like a safety valve on a steam engine as it approaches the summit under a great load. It is one thing that keeps everything together. Or BOOM.

I like to use the word Rant, the net is rather full of those. =)

I dont know Austrialian (Spelling) lingo other than what I seen on Crocidile Dundee decades ago.

[emdgp92]

Bargains are out there, if you're prepared to look for them. Not too long ago, I bought an Atlas N scale U25B...for less than half price. Even though it was salvaged when the store was flooded, it runs like new...and is even weathered :p

[BRAKIE]

river_eagle said:
In 1961 Athearn GP7 for example sold for $10, a brass loco was around $200,
==========================================================
Not even close..You could buy the Tenshodo GP7 and GP20 for $21.95 a two truck shay was $39.95...Most brass steam engines was less then $50.00..The Tenshodo F7 A-B set was a whopping $24.95.The SD24 was $22.95.
By 65 you could buy Alco Models,Trains Inc and Hallmark brass diesels for the average price of $34.95..

[fwright]

One way to cope with the price of the hobby is to limit yourself and be disciplined. If we go back to the late '50s/early '60s when Varney, Penn Line, Mantua, Bowser, etc KITS dominated the non-brass market, only an elite few MRs ever expected to have a fleet of over 20 locomotives. Prices are really not all that different relative to the value of the dollar then or now. But because the locomotives are now RTR with many improvements, it is quite practical to have a large roster - if you have the $$.

But how many locomotives are needed to support an operational session on your layout? A 4x8 in HO only supports 3-4 locomotives maximum for even a prolonged session. There's simply no place to realistically store more even if you could use them on additional trains being madeup/broken up.

To help keep the peace with my wife, I've agreed to a limit of 8 locomotives (5 standard, 3 narrow gauge) for my small layout. Have to get rid of one to get another one. And I'm OK with that because as a lone wolf operator, with occasional assistance from kids and maybe someday the wife, there's really no need for more. I just need to be selective with what I buy so that what I do buy actually fits in with my theme, era, and operations. When I see something that suits my railroad better than what I have, I purchase it (provided $$ are available) and sell off the less appropriate power - just like my somewhat imaginary prototype.

I am very grateful to those of you who do have large rosters - you keep availability up for those of us who don't. And I'm very grateful for eBay - it's become a great way to get around the limited run issue, and get a reasonable price for items I no longer want. The only thing I still wish for is the return of kits such as the Roundhouse and Mantua lines, or even a new line of steam kits. Maybe someday....

yours in foggy coastal Oregon where it's always 1900...
Fred W

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

One way to cope with the price of the hobby is to limit yourself and be disciplined. If we go back to the late '50s/early '60s when Varney, Penn Line, Mantua, Bowser, etc KITS dominated the non-brass market, only an elite few MRs ever expected to have a fleet of over 20 locomotives. Prices are really not all that different relative to the value of the dollar then or now. But because the locomotives are now RTR with many improvements, it is quite practical to have a large roster - if you have the $$.

But how many locomotives are needed to support an operational session on your layout? A 4x8 in HO only supports 3-4 locomotives maximum for even a prolonged session. There's simply no place to realistically store more even if you could use them on additional trains being madeup/broken up.

To help keep the peace with my wife, I've agreed to a limit of 8 locomotives (5 standard, 3 narrow gauge) for my small layout. Have to get rid of one to get another one. And I'm OK with that because as a lone wolf operator, with occasional assistance from kids and maybe someday the wife, there's really no need for more. I just need to be selective with what I buy so that what I do buy actually fits in with my theme, era, and operations. When I see something that suits my railroad better than what I have, I purchase it (provided $$ are available) and sell off the less appropriate power - just like my somewhat imaginary prototype.

I am very grateful to those of you who do have large rosters - you keep availability up for those of us who don't. And I'm very grateful for eBay - it's become a great way to get around the limited run issue, and get a reasonable price for items I no longer want. The only thing I still wish for is the return of kits such as the Roundhouse and Mantua lines, or even a new line of steam kits. Maybe someday....

yours in foggy coastal Oregon where it's always 1900...
Fred W

I could not have said any of this better, and I agree with it fully.

Well said, Fred.

[grayfox1119]

It really breaks down to the price of anything we buy today. Do we still pay .05 for a loaf of bread? Or .02 to mail a letter ( Ok out there....STOP laughing, I was born in 1939 and I "do" remember the .02 postage stamp )
Patrick, take it from and older person who has been there, done it. Yes, you ARE getting more frugal, why? Because as you get older, you realize how hard it is to make money and buy all things you want and still pay all the bills. And, you get tired.
So here is what you do......to keep your health in top shape, and to get some free money to buy a real nice loco of your desire, start walking down country roads and picking up soda bottles, beer cans and bottles, etc. and turn them in to the nearest redemption center. In no time you will have earned enough money, and you will be healthier for all that walking....and, you will be keeping America clean !!! LOL

[Anonymous]

"Venting" in the land of origin of English can mean letting air into or out of a room or building. It can also mean something post-gastronomic which might mean you want to do the former... or just let yourself out.

Don't know what you're all worried about... whether it's trainman or BLI by the time we add excise duty, VAT and any other tax they come up with we are paying the same number of £ sterling as you pay $.

then there's petrol... nearly £1 sterling a litre... so just figure out the up front cost of going to a neet or LHS to see if there is something you want to buy there.

...and the traders complain that too many people are buying direct on the net...

isn't life fun? :-)

[emdgp92]

I find it amusing that people remember what things cost years ago....but somehow forget that salaries were a lot less then. Not trying to slam anyone, just something to consider.

[SOU Fan]

When I get out of the house I will look at it this way. I have a birthday and Christams to get the expensive items. Then i'll buy the rest myself myself.[:D]

[Anonymous]

dekruif

Love your quote/ biline...GOT to ask... did that include their F units?

[dragonriversteel]

Thank you all for your insight. I quess if I want to keep going, gonna have to convert to DCC. I have way to much time and money involvled in DC trains and don't really have the knowledge to wirer in all the decoder's in my loco's.

Is there a DCC book { Wiring for dummies } ?

Patrick

[tstage]

Patrick,

There's a good reference book called "DCC Made Easy" by Lionel Strang (Kalmback books). Lionel does a good job of explaining DCC in very understandable terms.

There's also a link on the Tony's Train Exchange web site called 2. DCC For Beginners. Here's the direct link:

http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm

Check down at point 3, Track Wiring Considerations.

Some others like a site called Wiring For DCC - http://www.wiringforDCC.com

Tom

[rolleiman]

Patrick, If you can wire a DC Cab control system, you can install a decoder.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emdgp92

I find it amusing that people remember what things cost years ago....but somehow forget that salaries were a lot less then. Not trying to slam anyone, just something to consider.

What I find amusing is people seem to forget about the abundance of high paying Union jobs back in those days coupled with low rent /house payments and lower cost of living..Car payment wasn't $350.00 a month either.
Of course you never hear that side of the story because those facts doesn't figure in when they try to justify todays high cost of the hobby compared to those days. ..[;)]

[jecorbett]

It's like anything else, if you want premium quality, you have to be willing to pay a premium price. If you don't need all the bells and whistles, buy the low end stuff. I happen to think the enhancements made possible with DCC is well worth the premium price and I am willing to pay for it, although I do shop around to try and get the best price possible. In the end, we all vote with our dollars and the companies will respond to what consumers demand. As long as there is enough interest in low end locos, somebody will produce them.