Railfanning, Was I in the wrong?

[mtrails]

As an avid railfan, I am out taking pictures, and nearing ROW's all the time. I am noted in BNSF and MRL entries as being part of the track warrant (Don't take that literally!). I know a couple of BNSF and MRL engineers locally, and ones I haven't met, "know me", which doesn't make railfanning an issue for me. I can just about go anywhere and take pictures within 100 miles and be trusted by the RR. Cops and Security on the other hand, are just doing their job (as stated above). Sometimes I have to deal with those instances of "who are you, what are you doing, why?, etc." but am I in the wrong at anytime? No. Will anything be done to me? No. All things considered, railfanning can be dangerous, not just for the railfan, but for the RR, and respect is given majorily to the RR and should understood by everyone, no matter where they are, public or not, posted signs or not.

In a forum on www.railpictures.net, a guy talks about how he was treated like a terrorist, and was almost arrested, just being present on a station platform with a camera around his neck. To make a long story short, he stood up for is right, and obtained a "Pass" by the governing entitie(s) that allowed him to visit that station, and shoot whatever train he wanted, whenever he wanted. He could just flash his "pass" to any security, or cop, and he couldn't be touched. So, with that, there is that option, but as also stated above, it depends who you're dealing with. Do as you please, if you feel you're not over-stepping boundaries, and if you recieve any flack, deal with it in the appropriate manner.

Jeremy

[nbrodar]

I stand corrected, on point one. However, it should be noted that each railroad has their own policy regarding this, and not all stations are public property. (Example, most SEPTA stations I've been to are marked No Trespassing. And several are privately owned.)

Our policy is stations are private railroad property, and treated as such.

Nick

[dinwitty]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chewie8han

If you were using the walkway bridges, and not just crossing the tracks themselves, you were not in the wrong. The bridges are for pedestrians, and it does not matter if you were taking pictures while you were on them.
Courts have decided that individuals do not have a right to privacy while they are in a public place (a train station is definitely a public place). This carries over to anything in the public. As long as you are not trespassing, you are allowed to take pictures.
What you aren't allowed to do, is then sell your photos, making money off of any individual's image without their concent. This also applies to any copy protected device, machine, etc.

Kevni

you can walk in the middle of a public street, take pictures, and sell it, no probs.
Its public.

[David_Telesha]

BTW, this is so defined, once again, for the 4th year in the row, by Amtrak:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/News_Release_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1093554048391&ssid=180

Photography is allowed from "Public Access Areas such as Stations"...

BTW, the stations they refer to requiring advanced notification are not owned, but served by Amtrak... Like Boston South Station.

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nbrodar

I go through Rail Security training every year. And while I appriate that people like railfanning, keep these things in mind:

First, railway stations ARE private property, just like the right of way.

No... Not just like the right of way...

Its illegal to walk on the right of way because its trespassing.

Its not illegal to go onto a platform unless its posted you must have a ticket - and even then you can purchase one.

Platforms are public areas like parking lots, businesses, etc., RoW's are not.

[nbrodar]

I go through Rail Security training every year. And while I appriate that people like railfanning, keep these things in mind:

First, railway stations ARE private property, just like the right of way.

Second, rail employees are required to report ALL persons on or near the property, no matter how innocent they seem. This is emphasized heavily in areas where there have been incidents of vandalism, and outright sabotage. I don't know your area, but given some recent incidents in mine, if I catch you I WILL ask you to leave and a contact report will be filed.

Third, municipalities are scared to death of having a HAZMAT incident with-in their borders, and act accordingly.

While this may seem harsh, remember, we are in business to safely transport people and materials. Railroads MUST show they are serious about thier security. And unfortunately, that hurts a lot of railfans.

Please, play it safe. Don't go on railroad property, to take your pictures. If you see an employee or other security personel, ask permission. If you are asked to leave, leave with making an incident.

Nick

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zgardner18

You guys have given a lot of good info, so who will sum it all up for all of us so that we may be in the right next time. We are ambassadors for this hobby you know. We should represent it well.

I'm gonna agree 100 percent. Many security people and police officers may not know about model railroaders or railfans. A friendly conversation with these folks might not only turn up some good tidbits (best time to get pics, best places etc) but might actually bring some new folks into the hobby.

It may be a pain, but "checking" in isn't all that bad of an idea. If any of us saw a guy parked, on a public street, in front of our house taking pictures, wouldn't we be a bit nervous? If we approach the guy taking pictures from a public street of our house to see what was up and the guy responded with "hey, its a public street" wouldn't we be upset? On the other hand what if they guy said "I'm an archetiture (sp?) student doing a paper on 60's residential designs, can I take a couple of pics of your house?" Would that make us feel differently?

[fiatfan]

Here's an interesting link on the subject:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Tom

[Anonymous]

No, you're not wrong to take pictures, but you have to remember, this is a post- 9-1-1 world we live in. Security is now top priority with everyone. Granted, I think it gets a little carried away, but you have to understand everyone is one edge these days with everything going on. Even if you were on public property, the railroad could have called the police to question you. Let's face it. This is a new age of security that we live in. I think it's gotten a little carried away, but thats the way it is. Its the same thing as if you were standing on a public street taking pictures of a refinery or any ordinary building. You don't have to be on private property to be questioned about your intentions.

[zgardner18]

You guys have given a lot of good info, so who will sum it all up for all of us so that we may be in the right next time. We are ambassadors for this hobby you know. We should represent it well.

[David_Telesha]

You don't have to, thats the point. Are you going to walk up to that guard and ask him? Good luck.

One person is going to tell you yes, another will tell you no. One will care, one won't. You should've gathered that already. There's no use in asking.

A station is a public area - its open to the public. You're not doing anything illegal.

If somebody in authority takes it upon themselves to bug you, politely enlighten them, and if they ask you to leave, leave. File a letter to the RR asking if this was their policy (and as in 99% of the cases its not) print their response and carry it with you.

If they tell you to leave, leave. Go somewhere else, or come back another day.

The time I had an Amtrak conductor give me a hard time, I informed him Amtrak has a calendar photo contest and pulled out the paper offer to show him - he didn't even look at it.

His attitude changed in a split second.

He apologized twice and got back into his passenger car.

He obviously knew there was a contest. He didn't look at the paper, but took my word for it. He knew that I knew.

Also, the paper blatently says photographers may stand on platforms.

[cwclark]

yeah...know what you mean z...as much as i would dislike it...i'd rather humble myself than get beat over the head with a policeman's night stick and possibly maced or shot.

[Anonymous]

From a (UK) rail worker's point of view...
[look at my posts on keeping safe while railfanning for a start please].

Were you wrong? It would appear not except for 9/11 and paranoia... and... maybe... you note the security guard's accent...what has this got to do with anything.... except (possibly) your attitude or perceived attitude to the man doing the job he is paid to do (how well or otherwise he does it is a different issue).
Put yourself in his position... he shouldn't yell at you... but how many people has he had to deal with on that bridge already today? (Doesn't make him right). You come off the bridge...maybe a bit "fulll" of yourself (maybe not...I wasn't there)...maybe he sees attitude about his accent???
Whether it's really necessary as part of his job he decides to run you through the mill.

As I said, put yourself in his shoes... what if he came into your place of work and you thought he was out of place and then you thought he had attitude?

I'll give you a different example:-

The route from Crewe (England) to Manchester is blocked for massive engineering work -ripping it all out and building new for the most part).

This means that we are both running replacement buses and doing the Possession management work that I do from an area at the back of Crewe station called the "Horse Ramp". The result is a whole bunch of guys running the buses, the bus crews, the people preventing unauthorised parking (people stopping for "just five seconds" have a habit of blocking the buses for an hour...or two), and me or my colleagues mostly sitting on our backsides waiting for the next burst of action.

If they are busy or on a break I keep half an eye open. It isn't unusual for anyone and everyone from old grannies to gorgeous young ladies (and of course everyone including men in between) to either try to park wrong or to wander off into the wrong area looking for a bus instead of following the signs to the waiting room.

Probably about once a day someone will wander by with a camera.

There are two kinds:-
Those who don't put on High Visibility ORANGE (track use) jackets and those that do.

Usually those that do will greet anyone who checks them out... we often check with little more than a nod or a "nice day"... and they just briefly check that we don't mind them taking pictures.

Those that don't put on a jacket we will stop and check out. Quite a lot are looking for the bus...sometimes because they photo buses (weird!).

In all the weeks since December just one has kicked off.

This one had no camera in sight, no orange jacket and a pile of attitude. He ignored the first two staff who approached him, shoved past the third and headed toward where I had just parked up with a trail of staff plus his very embarrassed friend.

I'm not large by US cop standards... but I can do a pretty good Incredible Hulk impression. I was also in our version of National Guard (a long time ago).

The guy did not get past me.

We were Fascists, thugs, bullies etc. etc. He couldn't understand why we were victimising him like this.

He didn't get to take any pics, anywhere near us, at all. We put the Transport Police onto him.

The fact is that the guy was far more likely to have just been a massive idiot with a chip on his shoulder.

The equal fact is that if there was a terrorist about he probably glided by looking just as he should, smiling nicely, being polite and fitting in.

No Terrorist wants to attract attention to him/her self... that's the way the French Resistance worked to beat the occcupying Germans. That's the way the IRA worked when planting bombs around the UK.

So what are we supposed to do?

For a start we need to rescue the grannies and nice-young-ladies (and the rest) from going the wrong way. We also need to be seen to be doing. Even when nothing happens people are alerted to the possible risk of terrorists... so if we don't react we get letters to the local paper, Congressmen etc saying that we are sitting on our backsides doing nothing but taking our paychecks.

So we pay that bit more attention. Where five years ago you probably wouldn't have even had a guard you now have a guard. he has a job to do and he has to be seen to be doing it.

What should you do as a Railfan?

First be safe.
Then look out for the guard, seek him out, be nice to him, ask his permission and (even though it may be a pain if he says "no") accept his answer.

Sometimes we say "no" because of who's around but, if the response is right, will take your camera and quietly get the pics as best we can for you.

I don't know whether you were right or wrong BUT i do know that there are ways to discreetly get people on your side. It's surprising how someone can "just have to be somewhere else" if you handle the situation right.

Of course... getting the unsuspecting guard on your side is exactly what the terrorist will do...

I was told ages ago that "just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they are not out to get you"...

Then again... in over 25 years of working on the rail including all the IRA troubles, the present mess and just plain vandals, thieves and druggies... there is always something wrong about the duds. The big problem is that it doesn't always register until after they get up to whatever they are planning....so (increasingly often) we have to check out everyone that little bit more ... and say "NO" that bit more often.

Just a thought... what would have been your reaction if the guy had had an accent from the Bronx or Australia?

PLEASE keep SAFE and enjoy your rail fanning.

[zgardner18]

We should learn from our experiences, and believe you me, I will ask permission the next time because I'm not looking for trouble, only trains. Maybe it's a sense of pride or something: that now asking for permission when once you didn't have to. Humility is a hard trait for some of us.

[Jetrock]

Taking pictures from a public street shouldn't be a problem--taking a picture from private property, like a train platform, can be a problem. Asking permission is a courtesy that can save some hassle later. And yes, a lot of this is post-9/11 thinking, because even five years later a lot of people are on edge, and it's kind of a shame but acting like that sort of thinking doesn't exist won't make it go away. Put it this way, though: a terrorist would almost certainly NOT walk up to the security guard, say hi, and ask permission to photograph.

One bonus to this: sometimes the people working there know tidbits that you might miss! A few years back I was photographing a cannery and asked a security guard if it was okay--he gave me a full rundown of the history of the cannery and its operations!

[cwclark]

the right thing to do is to let someone know what you are up to....If I saw someone taking pictures of places that can get a terrorist the biggest bang for his buck (excuse the pun) like public transportation, you're darn toot'in i'm gonna say something to someone...as long as the right people know what you are up to then there shouldn't be a problem with taking pictures...it's like this..the terrorist are bad apples and bad apples unfortunatly spoil the bunch....I too wish i didn't have to "check - in" every time i do stuff like that, but it's going to stop a lot of undo problems and embarrassment if i just let someone know what i'm doing before taking it upon myself and doing it with out anyone knowing what i'm up to...it's just the sad days we now are faced to live with...chuck

[zgardner18]

So Chuck, should we put our camera away for a while? I really don't want to go check in very time I want to take a picture of a passing train, but on the other hand I am a law abiding citizen who wants to do what is right.

[icmr]

You were right.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[zgardner18]

My pictures were for model making for model railroading not for sale, but I guess no one cares about a hobby if they arn't interested in that hobby. Now that I think of it he told me that the station was private property of the county of Riverside--so does that mean that I can't visit City hall and take pictures either? (I should have used that on him)

[cwclark]

you were not wrong if you were not on railroad property. ..it is a shame, but you must understand that since 9/11 everyone is skidish about anyone taking pictures now-a-days and the guards are trained to stop people from doing as such.... Even where i work, if a truck stops on the side of the road next to the plant where i work, we are to report it...He may be lost to check his map or be making entries in his log book, but the fear and the realization of terrorism (the truck could be loaded with explosives meant to do us harm) does exist and things have to be checked out....next time it may be wise to check with the local authorities before proceding with your camera....nobody knows what you are up to when they see someone standing there taking pictures of public transportation and chances can't be taken anymore when it comes to the dangers our country now faces with the terrorists....chuck

[Anonymous]

If you were using the walkway bridges, and not just crossing the tracks themselves, you were not in the wrong. The bridges are for pedestrians, and it does not matter if you were taking pictures while you were on them.
Courts have decided that individuals do not have a right to privacy while they are in a public place (a train station is definitely a public place). This carries over to anything in the public. As long as you are not trespassing, you are allowed to take pictures.
What you aren't allowed to do, is then sell your photos, making money off of any individual's image without their concent. This also applies to any copy protected device, machine, etc.

Kevni

[zgardner18]

I say no signs and I never wondered off the platforms. I've photographed at lots of stations before and never had a rent-a-cop give me trouble. I explained that and then he asked what other stations have I taken pictures of, and then he wrote them down as I told him. Was this just a case of post 9/11 gitters?

[rrgrassi]

No you were not wrong, unless you were trespassing on railroad property. IF there are no posted signs, then they really have nothing. Do a search for all the news articles about how others endured what you did, only to have the decisions made by officals reversed to allow photography.

[BurlingtonJohn]

Possibly, you may have been wrong. I have noticed that many stations have signs posted that you have to have a ticket to be on the platforms, etc.

Regards,
Burlington John

[zgardner18]

I posted this on Trains forum too so I could get everyone's opinion.

Yesterday, at lunch time I was heading home when I decided to first, get a hamburger at my favorite restaurant: IN-N-OUT Burger and go a block down to the new Corona Station in the City of Corona, just outside of Los Angeles. As I sat on the platform eating my fries, Metrolink stopped on in and was out as fast as it came. Very soon after, the light behind the Commuter train turned green. I then finished up my lunch and crossed the tracks via the high bridge so that I may get that perfect shot of the BNSF freight blaring through. Well, it never came before I decided to vacate the premises when a security guard started yelling at me from the main platform, asking why I was taking pictures. I then crossed back over (via Walkway Bridge) where he called for backup as he took down all my information with 20 questions. I explained that I was only out photographing trains to complete my fix for the hobby that I love. He informed me in his Jamaican Accent that I was trust passing and that I had no permission to take pictures of anything involving trains or this station.

So my question is: was I in the wrong? Should I need to have permission from the City or the county before I place foot anywhere near a station with no intention to board a train but to photograph it instead? Has anyone else had this problem?