DCC is sooooooo boring...

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa
How about those throttles? Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it?

As dacort stated, the models aren't powered and controlled the same way real locomotives are. The problem here is in the decoder not the throttle. To get it to act like a real locomotive the decoder would have to sense the speed of the loco, load, wheel slippage etc. And then simulate the physics of a real locomotive. As others have said, on a selectively compressed model train layout this might NOT be a good thing.

QUOTE: With a sound-equipped engine this would be very satisfying because the prime mover would immediately ramp up to the next rpm level when moving from one notch to the next.

It is my understanding that's not how the prototype works. The prime mover only ramps up if the motors need the extra power the throttle is telling them to use. The throttle has no direct connection to the prime mover.

QUOTE: And what about brakes? How come we don't have any brakes? How simple would it be to assign 2 or 3 function buttons to activate a brake? Cut the throttle and the train keeps right on going unless you hit the brake. How prototypical is that?

A Digitrax Zephyr should be able to do this. I think all but the low end DCC systems can do this.

QUOTE: And how about a CV that would increase or decrease both acceleration and deceleration at the same time so we didn't have to fiddle with both CV3 and 4 whenever we make a change.

That would be less prototypical. There isn't much correlation between acceleration and deceleration in real life.

QUOTE: And I've mentioned here before what I think of the current straight-line velocity curve that is produced by all decoders today when using momentum. It shoudn't be that way. The actual velocity should approach the terminal velocity asymtotically (spelling may be off on that one).

Unless I am misunderstanding the point, I don't think I have any decoders that can't make the velocity curve almost any shape I want.

QUOTE: Even a littlle bit of wheel slip might be simulated for steamers by applying very short bursts of full voltage to the motor.

I would love this! But short bursts of full voltage won't do it, at least not like the prototype. The physics of wheel slippage don't scale down well.

QUOTE: End of rant. That's what I think. I'm wondering where the imagination went with others in this hobby.

I've been amazed at how easily people are impressed with the simple concept of having more than one train on the track at the same time. There are still a bunch of people who think that DCC invented the concept. I've often wondered why the "wow, I get it now" and snob factor seems to short circuit future inovation. There was actually an excellent thread about these things (the future of DCC or what ever it evolves into) about wo years ago. It might still be searchable. AHH found it http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26496&

[Anonymous]

Just looking at the hand-held controllers for DCC turns me off!
They are worse than most VCR Remotes!!!!
I just want to run my train, not spend all my time wondering if I hit the right button or not.
That's why I like my GML Walk-around throttle. Just a speed control and a direction switch!!!! That's all I need and all I want.
gtr

[jfugate]

da:

Yes, lots of realistic momentum in our models is a problem because we have to compress the distances so much. It gets ridiculous when the loco could coast the 5 feet to the next town if the momentum is set to realistic levels. [swg]

The operators on my HO Siskiyou Line don't like a lot of momentum, so I keep it at a minimum ... 4 or 5 is plenty in most DCC decoders. Just enough to give some feeling of mass and smooth loco performance, but not so much that they panic when they need to stop a train in a hurry.

[dacort]

I don't think I would want an 8-notch throttle, simply because model trains don't drive like the big ones. I've driven a real locomotive a couple of times. They're big and heavy, and will do neat things like coast for a really long time once they're moving, and all sorts of other things that models won't because they lack the mass. Even with momentum, I don't think a throttle with only 8 steps would do much in the way of approximating a real train. I think it would just limit the number of speeds you could use.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter
Got $5k for a RailDriver Full Sized AAR105 Control Stand?

No, but $149 for the desktop cab above is *very affordable* for a DCC throttle ... too bad it's not available in a walkaround format. [swg]

[scubaterry]

Check this out.. This was designed to run Trainsim however They now have software to run your layout via the RailDriver.




Terry
[8D]

[Anonymous]

Geore, that's an interesting point.

QUOTE: Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it? That plus a little (or a lot, your choice) of momentum would make for very much more interesting and satisfying control of the locomotive. Instead we get knobs, and in the case of Digitrax we get knobs that you have to turn about 10 revolutions to go from zero to 60. And they tout it as giving 'extra fine speed control'. Actually I think I might build my own 8 notch throttle. It's easy to make a simple voltage divider circuit and hook it to the jump throttle input on my Zephyr. With a sound-equipped engine this would be very satisfying because the prime mover would immediately ramp up to the next rpm level when moving from one notch to the next.

An 8 notch throttle would be neat.

QUOTE: And what about brakes? How come we don't have any brakes? How simple would it be to assign 2 or 3 function buttons to activate a brake? Cut the throttle and the train keeps right on going unless you hit the brake. How prototypical is that?

My MRC Teach4 260 powerpack has that. Train hardly slows down if you close the throttle but you press the brake button and it slows and comes to a stop.

QUOTE: Even a littlle bit of wheel slip might be simulated for steamers by applying very short bursts of full voltage to the motor.

I can do that with my powerpack.

[james saunders]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

.... Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it?

Got $5k for a RailDriver Full Sized AAR105 Control Stand?

i'll take one [8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

.... Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it?

Got $5k for a RailDriver Full Sized AAR105 Control Stand?

[Anonymous]

i once saw a layout with a real locomotive stand as the controller. well, at least panel with all the levers on it. the reverser made the little whining noise, the brakes hissed, and the throttle snapped to each of the 8 notches. the guy (look up peters rail meuseum in CT) was an ex-machinesest for amtrak i belive, and his basement is basicaly his railroad meuseum with a rio grande layout. check it out if youre in the area.
GEARHEAD426
[8]

[Anonymous]

Well George, hopefully some day you be the one of the folks who get invited to a market research group for a DCC manufacturer and you'll get the opportunity to bring up those points. But most likely the agency that arranges these little Pow-Wows invite folks that know nothing technical about the product they are evaluating (or they just came for the free lunch). That's usually how it goes.

So keep up the steam. If everyone accepted the status quo, we wouldn't see much improvement.

You never know what the future will bring. When I started in the hobby, controlling the train not the track was more or less in it's experimental stages. Now we have a revolutionary way to control the trains that's readily available.
Your right, there's a long way to go. Things can be done better. I invasion a day when controllers will be Prototypical. A camera in the loco will give you the view of your layout from your cab window on your big screen TV with synchronized full surround sound. How about a cab that sways, vibrates and rocks to sit in.

[jfugate]

Well, it's a cup half full or half empty situation. I just look at what was available in 1990 and where we are today 16 years later. It takes time, and I'm sure the "ahahs" will continue to hit as to what is possible with DCC.

Don't forget, the DCC manufacturers are first and foremost doing DCC as a business, not just to do something "cool". Any marketing research I've seen shows that "traditional throttles" with knobs far outsell throttles that have prototypical notches and brakes with lap, service and emergency.

And also remember the 1950s is the most popular era, so there's a fair amount of steam out there, and it doesn't have 8 notches on its throttle, further splintering the market.

Cool is one thing, but "what will sell the most?" is often another.

[CP5415]

WOW!

This is why I like DC.
I use my imagination for the notches.
Sound? Again, in my head, unless I'm using an Athearn BB!
Brakes? Both of my power packs have brake controls on them.

I'm JOKING! Relax!!!!

I've never investigated DCC so I don't know, but one would figure that for the investment, you would at least have brakes! [:D]

Gordon

[Anonymous]

UUUUmmmm, you might just have the wrong system, or not know how to use it to it's full function. My Digitrax does have momentum, and acceleration, and the sound equipped locos have throttle notches proportional to the speed, along with dynamic and air braking sounds when the functions are activated. Many decoders offer dynamic braking function, and most offer Kickstart that will give you some wheel slip. You can control the speed curve through programming CV's, the book even has values for prototypical operation of different kinds of locos. As for the throttles, I imagine Digitrax would like to hear input from people, and that could be the next product offered, I think the idea is pretty cool personally, and should market decently well, of course you're still going to have to have a digital screen and a whole crapload of buttons to offer all of the functions, and it'd be really hard to carry around in your pocket, but nonetheless it would be cool as a main control. Have you been in modern locomotives? The ones I've seen have no throttle lever, it's just a computer screen in front of the engineer that shows whatever they want, much like your Digitax handheld would (assuming you've added one to your Zephyr). The sound is really prototypical if you ask me, air activation on the bells, random air pumps, shutdown levels that even include the doors opening and shutting. The lights are pretty impressive too, alternating ditch lights at the touch of a button and directional head and tail lights that you can program to do whatever you want? I can't see how you can knock that.

Seems to me you need to pull out the instruction manual and get some more experience before you talk about how bad it is.

Okay, I'm done now,
Greg

[olequa]

I have to vent.

Why is it that DCC manufacturers don't get it? There are features that should be included in all DCC systems and they just aren't. DCC gave manufacturers the chance to simulate real operation in ways previously unimaginable. Yet we are left with controllers that simulate our old DCC powerpacks, not an actual locomotive controller.

For example...
How about those throttles? Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it? That plus a little (or a lot, your choice) of momentum would make for very much more interesting and satisfying control of the locomotive. Instead we get knobs, and in the case of Digitrax we get knobs that you have to turn about 10 revolutions to go from zero to 60. And they tout it as giving 'extra fine speed control'. Actually I think I might build my own 8 notch throttle. It's easy to make a simple voltage divider circuit and hook it to the jump throttle input on my Zephyr. With a sound-equipped engine this would be very satisfying because the prime mover would immediately ramp up to the next rpm level when moving from one notch to the next.

And what about brakes? How come we don't have any brakes? How simple would it be to assign 2 or 3 function buttons to activate a brake? Cut the throttle and the train keeps right on going unless you hit the brake. How prototypical is that?

And how about a CV that would increase or decrease both acceleration and deceleration at the same time so we didn't have to fiddle with both CV3 and 4 whenever we make a change.

And I've mentioned here before what I think of the current straight-line velocity curve that is produced by all decoders today when using momentum. It shoudn't be that way. The actual velocity should approach the terminal velocity asymtotically (spelling may be off on that one).

Even a littlle bit of wheel slip might be simulated for steamers by applying very short bursts of full voltage to the motor.

End of rant. That's what I think. I'm wondering where the imagination went with others in this hobby.

george