The hobby's doing fine, thanks for asking

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

If you go to the Census Bureau's web site http://www.census.gov/ you'll find that the average age of the population has been rising. One of the most interesting things is that the number of 65+ year olds rose from 3.1 million to 35 million over the last century. So the fact that the average age of a model railroader is rising is the expected result. It would be odd if it didn't.

Then there is far greater amount of products available. My Walther's catalogs from the from the 70's are much smaller that the current ones. S scale is growing like crazy.

Train shows are so crowded that you have to wait in line to get in. The Timonium Great Scale Model Train Show has a line that doesn't shrink for over an hour after they open the doors.

The only sensible conlusion is that the hobby is booming.

Enjoy
Paul

It would be interesting to do an analysis of how the extended lives of people will contribute to altered economics. Pensions and annuities are not meant to last for 40 years. I would expect that the average recipient lives 15-20 years into their retirement, depending on the usual variables of health and age of retirement.

An aging population that lives longer than its pensions are meant to pay will have a deleterious effect over all types of living, let alone hobbies. Also, remember that no matter how long we live, the twilight years bring increased medical and other care costs. Along with a prolonged life will be a prolonged "tail" that will be more costly in many respects. So, my point is, I wonder if someone more savvy than I in these things could comment about how that might affect leisure spending.

Here's a table showing spending declining as we get older

Average annual spending declines with age
Spending category 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+ Overall change
Apparel & services $2,029 $1,791 $1,252 $674 -67%
Entertainment $2,565 $2,297 $1,371 $896 -65%
Food & alcohol $6,693 $5,979 $4,803 $3,446 -49%
Health care $2,550 $3,007 $3,588 $3,584 41%
Housing $15,476 $13,831 $10,052 $8,252 -47%
Transportation $9,173 $8,449 $5,731 $3,178 -65%
Miscellaneous $4,939 $4,138 $3,593 $3,028 -39%
Personal insurance & pensions $5,323 $4,838 $1,853 $696 -87%
Total $48,748 $44,330 $32,243 $23,754 -51%
Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer Expenditure Survey 2002

except for health care (sorry the table is jumbled)

Here's an interesting article that used this table.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Retirementandwills/Createaplan/P121553.asp

The article says the decline is voluntary. Part of this I am sure reflects declining health, but I suspect part of it too may be that eventually, you have enough stuff that you start getting a little choosier. I know this is happening with me.

Enjoy
Paul

[jfugate]

Paul:

I think you can unjumble the table if you put it in code tags, like this:[code]
Average annual spending declines with age
Spending category 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+ Overall
Apparel & services $2,029 $1,791 $1,252 $674 -67%
Entertainment $2,565 $2,297 $1,371 $896 -65%
Food & alcohol $6,693 $5,979 $4,803 $3,446 -49%
Health care $2,550 $3,007 $3,588 $3,584 +41%
Housing $15,476 $13,831 $10,052 $8,252 -47%
Transportation $9,173 $8,449 $5,731 $3,178 -65%
Miscellaneous $4,939 $4,138 $3,593 $3,028 -39%
Pers. ins & pension $5,323 $4,838 $1,853 $696 -87%
Total $48,748 $44,330 $32,243 $23,754 -51%
Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics,
Consumer Expenditure Survey 2002[/code]

[selector]

Thanks to both of you. We must not forget, too, that most pensions are not indexed, so they erode over time. That, in turn, may erode the voluntariness of the reduced spending. Just another way of looking at things.

-Crandell

[wctransfer]

I dont think the hobby is dieing at all. But i do think the only real problem with kids not getting interested is because they cant go out and buy 2 engines and 10 cars anymore. Thats a lot of money for such a small thing. Im in 8th grade and model the WC,SOO, and the CNW. I dont have a layout, but plenty of cars (atleast 10 RTR cars) and then bluebox kits. Got about 25-30 units. When i tell people that Athearn RTR SD60 costs 80 bucks they ask why i would want to pay for that. If kids could get a few units once in a while, i think there would be a lot more younger railfans and modelers. But I think they dont see the interest in trains like they once did, as so "hometown" lines have been torn out since the 70's and 80's. Back "in the day" there were trains everywhere, crews would invite you up just for the hell of it. Now, trains arent as dense everywhere, and there are so many rules that wont let any kid my age or younger get interested.

Alec

[Anonymous]

No body has even addressed the problem I am having.

Prices getting higher, and income not keeping up.

James

[Anonymous]

I think that is a problem for most of us. Athearn RTR freight cars are nice for $11-$15

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

I think that is a problem for most of us. Athearn RTR freight cars are nice for $11-$15

Where are you finding them for that much? Around here its $15.00-$20.00

Jamses

[roadrat]

QUOTE: No body has even addressed the problem I am having.

Prices getting higher, and income not keeping up.

James

James the problem you are facing can only be corrected by you.
if you are not earning enough money then you need to make some career and lifestyle choices, I know this can be difficult if not down right impossible because of many different factors.
but the global economy is not going to change just for guy's like us. we have to change or be left behind.

bill

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Paul:

I think you can unjumble the table if you put it in code tags, like this...

Thanks Joe. Always good to learn something new.
Enjoy
Paul

[wctransfer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

I think that is a problem for most of us. Athearn RTR freight cars are nice for $11-$15

Where are you finding them for that much? Around here its $15.00-$20.00

Jamses

I get them for that much too. Where are you shopping? Im in Minnesota and we have a pretty "family" like hobby shop. Got the SOO SD60's (retail 99 bucks) for 82. So we get pretty good deals there.

Alec

[RedGrey62]

I love reading all these posts on this subject. I actually learn a lot from the back and forth. Now for my [2c]. I am a weather forecaster by profession and a model railroader by choice. And as a good weatherman, I can manipulate statistics in my favor (did you know that 50% of the people make up half the population?). What we have in this argument is the third part of the famous phrase "Lies, Dang (editted) Lies, and STATISTICS". [:D]

Its great how two people can look at the same data and draw completely different conclusions. I might add, our own prejudices often skew how we view statistics, especially others'.

I will not add to the debate. I will only offer that the hobby is alive and well in my home and I have a wonderful wife who helps fuel my addiction...er....interest, as long as she gets equal time/money for her hobbies[;)]

Rick

[Anonymous]

Thank you, someone finally sees it the way that I see it!

[cmrproducts]

I have been a member of a model rr club going on 20 plus years now. We have several open house events throughout the year and the general public is encouraged to attend.

I am starting to see third generation kids visiting the displays. So there must be some interest in the trains or the kid’s kids would not be bringing in their kids. And yes we have a number of young members and their parents are not one bit interested in trains!

But then again when I am over 100 years old and the hobby is gone I WILL have all of the trains finally because there won’t be anyone around that plays with trains anymore.

I win! - (He who has the most trains wins)

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[sfrailfan]

wow, I just replied to a similar post, I wasn't going to reply to this but… Alco Fan did some research and for that you should be congradulated. Nice work.

As for these guys who constantly predict the end of the hobby; are you sure you really like trains? Did you mom threaten to take them away when you were kids?

Come On!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roadrat
James the problem you are facing can only be corrected by you.
if you are not earning enough money then you need to make some career and lifestyle choices, I know this can be difficult if not down right impossible because of many different factors.
but the global economy is not going to change just for guy's like us. we have to change or be left behind.

bill

While I have had steadily higher income for each of the last 5 years. My average annual income has raised roughly only 6% a year. Model railroad products in the last 5 years have gone up 100% to 200%. Athearn's SD40-2 that used to cost $45.00 was replaced by a version with new tooling. And in the great mode railraod wasteland of Wyoming is avaialable only in Ready to Run for $89.95 a practicle doubling in price. Average anual price increace of 20%

And then. The prevailing attitude that is presented in most magazines and here on this forum is that Athearn is no longer good eneugh. Its about as good for you as a TYCO, with that growling noise and not being DCC equiped with sound and all that jazz. What you need is the latest and greatest piece of Technicle wizardry from Atlas, Proto2000, Stewart, Broadway Limited/Precicion Craft Models, oh and lets not forget Overland. and from these people you can buy every locomotive and then some that Athearn use to make in the affordable $45.00 or less range, starting at $225.00 and up. And Oh by the way if you do not do so you are not a "real" model railroader.

So if you consider the increace in expenditure just for all the hot fancy new technology. Thats at least a 5 times increace in price. increace in price or an average annual price increace of 100%

So If I need to make different career and life style choices, I would surely like to know what ones. Because not only would I like to be able to buy the locomotives I want again. I would love to have all my bills paid as well.

James.

[Anonymous]

James, here are Athearn RTR freight cars for $11-$15 http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Category.asp?CategoryID=2002101808342643&SN=2006020118212946

[Paul3]

James (SOBSB),
Sorry, but you've got to be kidding. You obviously have internet access, and so you have the ability to shop anywhere online for bargains. Yet you expect us to feel sorry for you because you can't be bothered to shop around anywhere other than Wyoming?

BTW, it would be nice if you didn't compare apples to oranges when making these price comparisons. From Athearn.com, an SD40-2 kit costs $56.50 MSRP (yes, they are still available as kits). I don't know when SD40-2 kits were $45, but in 1993 they were $36.00 according to my old Walthers catalog. That means that an Athearn SD40-2 kit hasn't gone up 100% in 13 years, let alone 5 as you claim.

As far as your comments about "Athearn not being good enough"...where have you been? Are you honestly surprised that magazines and public opinion favors higher priced and higher quality products? Just because other people prefer Ferarris, BMW's, and Cadillacs doesn't mean that you can't buy and enjoy Chevys, Fords, and Dodges.

As far as complaining about costs and real life... Remember that this is your hobby, not your life. First take care of real life, then whatever's left can be used on your hobby. If you can only afford $50 a month for model railroading and you really want that $200 loco, put that $50 in a jar for 4 months. We all do it. I can't afford to whip out $400 for a brass steamer at any given moment, but I can if I save for it (I now have 4 New Haven brass steamers).

And for pity's sake, shop around for the best deals. You wouldn't go to a car lot and buy the first car you saw. You wouldn't go to Sears and buy the first washing machine. So why would you only buy what you can find at your Wyoming LHS?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

QUOTE: Originally posted by roadrat
James the problem you are facing can only be corrected by you.
if you are not earning enough money then you need to make some career and lifestyle choices, I know this can be difficult if not down right impossible because of many different factors.
but the global economy is not going to change just for guy's like us. we have to change or be left behind.

bill

While I have had steadily higher income for each of the last 5 years. My average annual income has raised roughly only 6% a year. Model railroad products in the last 5 years have gone up 100% to 200%. Athearn's SD40-2 that used to cost $45.00 was replaced by a version with new tooling. And in the great mode railraod wasteland of Wyoming is avaialable only in Ready to Run for $89.95 a practicle doubling in price. Average anual price increace of 20%

Gee, only 6% per year? That'll double your income in 12 years. That's about how rapidly my salary went up between 1990 and 2001 (when I was laid off). In any case, you're comparing a BB kit (still available) with a RTR model.

BTW, you ever tried shopping online?

QUOTE:
And then. The prevailing attitude that is presented in most magazines and here on this forum is that Athearn is no longer good eneugh. Its about as good for you as a TYCO, with that growling noise and not being DCC equiped with sound and all that jazz. What you need is the latest and greatest piece of Technicle wizardry from Atlas, Proto2000, Stewart, Broadway Limited/Precicion Craft Models, oh and lets not forget Overland. and from these people you can buy every locomotive and then some that Athearn use to make in the affordable $45.00 or less range, starting at $225.00 and up. And Oh by the way if you do not do so you are not a "real" model railroader.

There's people out there who worry about putting food on the table and you're looking for sympathy about hobby prices? I'm sorry, but some things are important and others aren't. The prices of hobby items aren't.

QUOTE:
So if you consider the increace in expenditure just for all the hot fancy new technology. Thats at least a 5 times increace in price. increace in price or an average annual price increace of 100%

So If I need to make different career and life style choices, I would surely like to know what ones. Because not only would I like to be able to buy the locomotives I want again. I would love to have all my bills paid as well.

James.

You have a job? Pay your bills, set aside some savings and if you have something left over, then you can buy model railroad equipment. If you can't afford what you want the first month, save for as long as it takes to get the item you want.

Andre

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

James (SOBSB),
Sorry, but you've got to be kidding. You obviously have internet access, and so you have the ability to shop anywhere online for bargains. Yet you expect us to feel sorry for you because you can't be bothered to shop around anywhere other than Wyoming?

That maybe true I can "Shop" around for bargains any ole online train store. But most of these online establishments do not take accept check or money order. Or at least I can not find a place that says they do. And since Internet Identity theft is rampant, Im not about to be flashing my credit card number across cyber space no matter how well its encrypted.

QUOTE:
BTW, it would be nice if you didn't compare apples to oranges when making these price comparisons. From Athearn.com, an SD40-2 kit costs $56.50 MSRP (yes, they are still available as kits). I don't know when SD40-2 kits were $45, but in 1993 they were $36.00 according to my old Walthers catalog. That means that an Athearn SD40-2 kit hasn't gone up 100% in 13 years, let alone 5 as you claim.

Ok fine. But if Kits are still avaialable. WHERE THE HECK ARE THEY? Even those online stores that I can shop with my credit card, seem not to have them. In my 2001 walthers catalog. The SD40-2s are listed at $44.95. SD40-2 kits might now be $56.50. But nobody has them it seems, so we are then stuck with the $89.95 RTR version.

QUOTE:
As far as your comments about "Athearn not being good enough"...where have you been? Are you honestly surprised that magazines and public opinion favors higher priced and higher quality products? Just because other people prefer Ferarris, BMW's, and Cadillacs doesn't mean that you can't buy and enjoy Chevys, Fords, and Dodges.

That maybe true I can enjoy my chevy's fords' and dodges. But when was the last time you saw a ford Taurus station wagon in Hot Rod Magazine?

Everyone from Phil Walthers, Terry Thompson, and Tony Keoster, To Johny train geek at the counter in Nowhere wyoming hobby shop says High teck high featured new stuff makes you a "true" model railroader, anything less, your just playing with toys. Oh and for christ sakes, Dont you dare build something by yourself. Thats just unmodelrailroadly. If you get caught scratchbuilding Tony Keoster is going to lead the Model Rairlaod police swat team on your workbench himself.

QUOTE:
As far as complaining about costs and real life... Remember that this is your hobby, not your life. First take care of real life, then whatever's left can be used on your hobby. If you can only afford $50 a month for model railroading and you really want that $200 loco, put that $50 in a jar for 4 months. We all do it. I can't afford to whip out $400 for a brass steamer at any given moment, but I can if I save for it (I now have 4 New Haven brass steamers).

You are right, This is supposed to be a hobby. But without going into all the painful details. My life has been positivly crappy. And my family and model trains have been the only positive force in my life. So I am sorry if my fantasy life is the only life I feel like living. The job I have only has to keep the trains running. And I wouldn't be so upset, except that the only apparent motivation for all these crazy prices is nothing other than plain ole greed.

QUOTE:
And for pity's sake, shop around for the best deals. You wouldn't go to a car lot and buy the first car you saw. You wouldn't go to Sears and buy the first washing machine. So why would you only buy what you can find at your Wyoming LHS?

Paul A. Cutler III

Because technology is faulty and my life seems to be run by Murphey's law. I do use E-bay alot. But that gives me the option of check or money order. And I do use money order for somethings because my hobby shop tells me I can't get them. But I use my LHS because I have a sense of loyalty. I have had problems with stuff from mail order and I have had to fix it. When ever I had a problem at the LHS, they took care of it.

I guess I just ask for to much.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RedGrey62
... did you know that 50% of the people make up half the population?

Rick

And worse still, fully *half* of all Americans make below median wage. Now *that* needs to be corrected ... [swg]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue
In my 2001 walthers catalog. The SD40-2s are listed at $44.95. SD40-2 kits might now be $56.50. But nobody has them it seems, so we are then stuck with the $89.95 RTR version.

Huh?

There are brick-and-mortar hobby shops advertising the RTR models for under 60 bucks in this month's RMC (probably MR, too, I happened to have the RMC with me). I'm sure they'd take a money order and you could buy RTR for the same price you say you are willing to pay for a kit.

Have you shopped around at all?

Jon

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
And worse still, fully *half* of all Americans make below median wage. Now *that* needs to be corrected ... [swg]

I am ashamed to say I am in that half.

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan
Huh?

There are brick-and-mortar hobby shops advertising the RTR models for under 60 bucks in this month's RMC (probably MR, too, I happened to have the RMC with me). I'm sure they'd take a money order and you could buy RTR for the same price you say you are willing to pay for a kit.

Have you shopped around at all?

Jon

Yes I have shopped around. It might be in the advertisement. Does not mean that what I want that I see advertised is in stock. Plus everything you do via mail order has to have shipping and handling factored in. I bought a an Athearn SE Troppicanna Reefer set on E-bay once. Bid Price was $9.50. Shipping and Handling. 11.95. Wasn't that much of a deal after all wasn't it. (Yes I know an extream example but it illistrates my point) Besides, Now that I am venting, its all a moot point anyway. Im only clearing $25.00 or so at the end of the month at any rate. So if even somethign I wanted is in stock. It would take me three months to save the money to purchase it. Assuming the place I am ordering from has decent shipping and handling.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

QUOTE: Originally posted by RedGrey62
... did you know that 50% of the people make up half the population?

Rick

And worse still, fully *half* of all Americans make below median wage. Now *that* needs to be corrected ... [swg]

Well I'll be [censored]. I'm one of them. Total wages for 2005: $0.

Wife's total wages for 2005: $0.

Come to think of it, that's been true for all years after 2001.

Thanks a whole lot, Joe, for making it so crystal clear how poor the missus and I are.

Now if I could just get each and every MR subscriber to send us the small sum of $1/year, that would be just peachy. Make it $5 and we would be living in a style to which we would rapidly become accustomed.[:D]

Naw. That wouldn't work. We'd still be WAY under the median wage.

Still, we could live with that.[(-D][(-D]

Andre

[AntonioFP45]

Student of the Big Blue Sky,

You've been a long time member and I've always enjoyed reading your posts and have a lot of respect for how sincere your thoughts are always expressed. (Remember our forum friend "UP8998" back when your forum name here was "Grayhound Challenger"? Man, was he a character!! )

Anyway, a lot of changes have occured with various forum members since 2003, when I joined. Since then, in your situation, are more opportunites opening up for you career wise? I know that there are many jobs that have been outsourced, however, there are many other career positions that aren't going anywhere soon. Some of them pay quite well. Have you considered pursuing one of these routes?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Student of the Big Blue Sky,

You've been a long time member and I've always enjoyed reading your posts and have a lot of respect for how sincere your thoughts are always expressed. (Remember our forum friend "UP8998" back when your forum name here was "Grayhound Challenger"? Man, was he a character!! )

Anyway, a lot of changes have occured with various forum members since 2003, when I joined. Since then, in your situation, are more opportunites opening up for you career wise? I know that there are many jobs that have been outsourced, however, there are many other career positions that aren't going anywhere soon. Some of them pay quite well. Have you considered pursuing one of these routes?

When I first joined. I was a heady sophmore in college flush with enthusiasm. Back then the future was bright, Prices had not gone nuts yet. and even though I was a college student tight on funds, I enjoyed a healthy amount of hobby participation. Then my parents tore down my layout, hobby prices have skyrocketed, I have had to pile on debt to finish school, and I seemed to develop a black mark against me some place. The job I work now pays just above minimum wage, and barely pays for this poor excuse for a one room apartment. keep something paletable in the fridge and keeps my hygene up to standard. I am looking for higher paying jobs. But any gains in pay I make are going to be swallowed up in paying my debts. Matter of fact, If I do not find a better paying job soon. the holders of my stuent loans are going to force me into bankruptcy. I am already preparing to sell a substantial portion of my train collection, Just to get them off my back for a while. The thought of that causes me a great deal of anguish.

I was promised when I was little, Go to School get good grades so you can go to college and get a good job. Well I went to school, put up with a trainload of harrassment and abuse, went to college, and the good jobs I was promised evaporated, and our good freind Georgie Boy is making *** sure that unless you have 5 million in your bank acount to join the club. The great promise of America is off limits to anyone who has less. Oh and its clear that women are not very welcome iether.

In the year I have been out of college, I have become very disallusioned and synical of everything. I apoligise if this starts to grate on people. Im not a greedy man and Im not asking for much. But it would be nice if I could afford a bed so I can stop sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor. By the way. I should mention that I only have internet because it came "free" with the telephone service (Free because I am paying about $20.00 a month more than whats available in other towns) which my job requires me to have. $70.00 a month I could otherwise spend on something else.

Disgruntled, and Dissolusioned.

James

[dinwitty]

its curious that the plastic model has gone brass quality and brass is out of sight...
the new steamers are excellent compared to the older rivarrosi.
Price is up on the plastic steamers, but the quality went that way too.

I am always regearing the rivarossis to slow them down, the new LL's crawl without regearing.
no more jackrabbits.

[Paul3]

Student of Big Sky Blue wrote:

QUOTE: That maybe true I can "Shop" around for bargains any ole online train store. But most of these online establishments do not take accept check or money order. Or at least I can not find a place that says they do. And since Internet Identity theft is rampant, Im not about to be flashing my credit card number across cyber space no matter how well its encrypted.

I just went to one of the biggest train dealers around at http://www.trainworld.com/orderform.htm, and look right at the top of the form... It says, "Please complete the order form and mail it, with check or money order"

Also, for DCC items, Tony's Train eXchange (www.tonystrains.com) takes money orders..

For one of the best train stores in New England, try www.tuckershobbies.com. He also takes checks and money orders.

As you can see, if you do some searching, you should be able to find some places. Heck, just ask around here. Folks here are never really shy to voice their opinion, so if you asked what are the best online dealers that take money orders or checks, I'm sure you'll get a favorable reaction.

QUOTE: Ok fine. But if Kits are still avaialable. WHERE THE HECK ARE THEY? Even those online stores that I can shop with my credit card, seem not to have them. In my 2001 walthers catalog. The SD40-2s are listed at $44.95. SD40-2 kits might now be $56.50. But nobody has them it seems, so we are then stuck with the $89.95 RTR version.

I'm afraid you'll have to shop around. Or special order it from a Horizon dealer. From what I saw on Athearn's website, another run of SD40-2 kits are due out this Spring, so I'd start hunting ASAP. They are being made, but as you know, they just aren't as profitable for a retailer to keep in stock. I'm positive someone will order it for you, but to carry it? (shrug) I can't blame a retailer for trying to stock more expensive merchandise if he can sell it. I've worked in small business retail for 17 years, and it's hard enough to compete as it is. A store would have to sell twice as many kits as RTR to see the same profit... So if a retailer can sell a dozen $90 RTR SD40-2's vs. even 18 $56 kits, a retailer (and any other kind of successfull small business owner) is going to want to sell those RTR's. It just makes business sense...

QUOTE: That maybe true I can enjoy my chevy's fords' and dodges. But when was the last time you saw a ford Taurus station wagon in Hot Rod Magazine?

Maybe an SHO? Anyways, that was kind of my point. You aren't going to find too many (if any) "average" products in any hobby magazine. They are all going to highlight the best and brightest over the cheap and mundane. Why be surprised or disappointed in MR for doing the same thing?

QUOTE: Everyone from Phil Walthers, Terry Thompson, and Tony Keoster, To Johny train geek at the counter in Nowhere wyoming hobby shop says High teck high featured new stuff makes you a "true" model railroader, anything less, your just playing with toys. Oh and for christ sakes, Dont you dare build something by yourself. Thats just unmodelrailroadly. If you get caught scratchbuilding Tony Keoster is going to lead the Model Rairlaod police swat team on your workbench himself.

I don't suppose you have a quote to back you up on that? Or are you just projecting your angst on others without reason?

IMHO, the biggest question I have here is...why would you care what they think? They don't know you from a hole in the wall, and I assume you don't know them other than from MR, this forum, and your LHS. Hey, one time I had an LHS owner try to help me pick up some track (I wanted Atlas Code 83). He suggested Code 100 because, you know, it's so much sturdier and can handle the bigger flanges, etc. I said, "Thanks, but I'm going with Code 83." Duh. Sure, Code 100 was a couple cents cheaper, but how many roads used 155 lb rail, for pete's sake? I mean, Code 83 is bad enough (132 lb rail), but it's so popular it's sort of the defacto standard, so I went with that over some LHS owner's opinion.

Also, my DCC layout, 25' x 50', has no circuit breakers. A real no-no for some DCC experts out there. Does that mean my layout isn't any good? No, but it's something I can live with. Maybe when I have the money and the time, I'll add breakers, but for now...hey, it works. Why mess with it?

BTW, have you seen the latest MR yet? It has scratch building/kit bashing articles in it. Seriously. How did Terry and Tony let that happen if they are so anti-scratch building? Also, you do realize how silly you sound going off on Tony K. for being anti-scratch building, don't you? He was the editor of Railroad Model Craftsman for years, for pete's sake.

QUOTE: You are right, This is supposed to be a hobby. But without going into all the painful details. My life has been positivly crappy. And my family and model trains have been the only positive force in my life. So I am sorry if my fantasy life is the only life I feel like living. The job I have only has to keep the trains running. And I wouldn't be so upset, except that the only apparent motivation for all these crazy prices is nothing other than plain ole greed.

There's something called capitalism. We live in it. When you make something for sale, you charge what the market will bear. You raise the price until the sales slack off, then lower the price until the sales recover. If you sell too low, you're leaving money on the table. If you sell to high, no one will buy it and your out of business. If that's greed, well, that's the American way and has been for hundreds of years.

I'm sorry for your personal troubles, but unfortunately, they don't ask us what we want to pay, they offer it to us and it's our choice to buy or not.

BTW, what you see as "greed" may be seen as survival for some of these companies. It's not like any of them are Fortune 500's. Atlas is still family owned, and so is Bowser, Kadee, and Accurail, IIRC. Even the biggest names in the hobby, Walthers & Kalmbach, are still pipsqueaks when it comes to corporate America.

QUOTE: Because technology is faulty and my life seems to be run by Murphey's law. I do use E-bay alot. But that gives me the option of check or money order. And I do use money order for somethings because my hobby shop tells me I can't get them. But I use my LHS because I have a sense of loyalty. I have had problems with stuff from mail order and I have had to fix it. When ever I had a problem at the LHS, they took care of it.

I guess I just ask for to much.

And I'm sure your LHS appreciates your loyalty...but then why are they giving you the business for not buying the latest and greatest?

jfugate wrote:

QUOTE: And worse still, fully *half* of all Americans make below median wage. Now *that* needs to be corrected ...

My favorite math challenged statistic is the Dilbert cartoon when it was pointed out to the PHB (pointy haired boss) that 40% of all sick days took place on Mondays and Fridays. Of course, a massive investigation was launched to find out who was so abusing the sick time system. LOL

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

That maybe true I can "Shop" around for bargains any ole online train store. But most of these online establishments do not take accept check or money order. Or at least I can not find a place that says they do. And since Internet Identity theft is rampant, Im not about to be flashing my credit card number across cyber space no matter how well its encrypted.

It's possible to shop online safely and use a credit card. Just get a separate credit card for online use only (do NOT use your bank account debit card) and if anything fishy ever happens with it, dispute the charge, report the card stolen, and have them issue you a new card. Easy as you please.

People can take your money order and "run", never sending you any goods -- and good luck disputing it. Money orders are almost as bad as sending cash. Little or no recourse if you are ever cheated.

[simon1966]

Ok, here is a thought. The people who probably have the best insight into the market are those that control significant portions of the market. I would contend that Walthers and Horizon are 2 companies that have hard data upon which to make decisions. Both of these companies have been investing heavily in the scale model RR market in the last couple of years. I doubt that either of these companies made these acquisitions without funds from banks or other investors. In either case, compelling business plans would have been made to secure the funds. I would contend that there are many other smaller companies that are investing in the hobby developing new products in both the modelling and the control arena. My contention would be that the people with the most knowledge about this hobby seem to be investing, so it can't all be bad news.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3
I just went to one of the biggest train dealers around at http://www.trainworld.com/orderform.htm, and look right at the top of the form... It says, "Please complete the order form and mail it, with check or money order"

OK perhaps I need read more carefully then. But I find it highly suscicious that most places just have spots to type your credit card in.

QUOTE:
I'm afraid you'll have to shop around. Or special order it from a Horizon dealer. From what I saw on Athearn's website, another run of SD40-2 kits are due out this Spring, so I'd start hunting ASAP. They are being made, but as you know, they just aren't as profitable for a retailer to keep in stock. I'm positive someone will order it for you, but to carry it? (shrug) I can't blame a retailer for trying to stock more expensive merchandise if he can sell it. I've worked in small business retail for 17 years, and it's hard enough to compete as it is. A store would have to sell twice as many kits as RTR to see the same profit... So if a retailer can sell a dozen $90 RTR SD40-2's vs. even 18 $56 kits, a retailer (and any other kind of successfull small business owner) is going to want to sell those RTR's. It just makes business sense...

While I must admit that the SD40-2 was the most convenient example. Horizon discontinued alot of locomotives that I need to model given my GN 1969 time frame,because of their 'Wide Bodiedness" Its 6 scale inches. thats .083" one hight of code 83 rail. Is it really that big of an issiue? of course, they will be replaced with the appropriet RPP shell when they get done upgrading them. But if the GP35 is any indication. They will be RTR. which we all agree on, is more expensive. Plust the fact that the scant undecs that they make will have to be dissasembled and if they use glue, that could be a rail problem.

QUOTE:
Maybe an SHO? Anyways, that was kind of my point. You aren't going to find too many (if any) "average" products in any hobby magazine. They are all going to highlight the best and brightest over the cheap and mundane. Why be surprised or disappointed in MR for doing the same thing?

First off what is an SHO???? This hobby, if we are still calling it that, is supposed to be an escape for a man or a women to escape the daily grind. A chance to bond with the kids, And maybe be a convienient tool for entertaining neighbors and freinds. The fact that they show off the best and the brightest isn't what bothers me. Its the fact that the tone that they take is, "If your ego is big eneugh, sexually defficient in some way, and have deep eneugh pockets, You to can experiene the joys of this latest Class X whatchagidget. Its only $399.95

I have a sizable library of magazines going back to the 70s before I was born. In a mid 1980s issiue of MR is an Article on how to detail and upgrade Bachmann's NYC Niagra and have it be the rival of brass. I am willing to bet that it still costs less than $249.99 that the BLI Niagra is listed for at Walthers.

When I get the chance.I have several monogram big boys I have purchased with the intention of motorizing them. I have called Bowser and they will let me puchase just their big boy mechanism for $125.00

So my big boys will cost each as follows.
Bowswer Big Boy Mechanism. $125
Bowser Big Boy Tender electrification kit. $24.95
Revell-Monogram/Con-Cor Big Boy Kit. $24.99
Digitrax DH 141 Decoder. $19.95

Or Soundtraxx Sound Decoder for UP 4-6-6-4 3985 $75.00

That gives me a nicely detailed Big Boy at the following Prices.
DC. $174.94
DCC$194.89
DCCwSound $249.94

Athearn's Genisis Big Boy will be $449.98 and Precicion Craft Model's Big Boy is going to be $749.99

As I have shown. A person can build their own and come out ahead. I realise that just for the 6 that I have at my current budget Im looking at 7 months of cutting expenses to the bone and saving until I can purchase what I need to build just one. But to get Athearn's I would have to wait 18 months and both you and I know they are going to be out of stock by then.

However my point is, the current climate that is in place. Everyone wants to shame and ridicule me because Its like Im not even playing the game. Is it jealousy against people who have craftsman skills??? Its just nuts.

QUOTE:

QUOTE: Everyone from Phil Walthers, Terry Thompson, and Tony Keoster, To Johny train geek at the counter in Nowhere wyoming hobby shop says High teck high featured new stuff makes you a "true" model railroader, anything less, your just playing with toys. Oh and for christ sakes, Dont you dare build something by yourself. Thats just unmodelrailroadly. If you get caught scratchbuilding Tony Keoster is going to lead the Model Rairlaod police swat team on your workbench himself.

I don't suppose you have a quote to back you up on that? Or are you just projecting your angst on others without reason?

Also, you do realize how silly you sound going off on Tony K. for being anti-scratch building, don't you? He was the editor of Railroad Model Craftsman for years, for pete's sake.

No I do have proof, in writing and you have probably read it to and I will post it here verbatem shortly. On the grounds that Tony Keoster was a former editor of RMC. That maybe so, but he doesn't walk the walk any more. Through is Trains of Thought column, he has openly admitted that any locomotives and rolling stock that were on his AM that can be used on his new NKP venture. Instead of repainting them himself in the finest of RMC tradition. What did he do? Sent them off to some place in Michigan to be repainted and have Sound Decoders installed. How uncraftsman like of a former editor of a magazine that is about nothing but craftsmanship. (Yes I subscribe)

Here are Tony Keosters Comment that generated the angst ridden comment that I left quoted for context above. They are from the April 2006 Issiue of MR. Its his Monthly Trains of Thought Column and is titled "Good Enugh" in the 21st Century. I will rewrite it verbatem then add comments afterward.

QUOTE:
"During a recent discussion about the design and theme for a new HO model railroad, the topic of "good eneugh" -a benchmark of the state of the art created by Allen McClelland for his orginal HO scale Virginian & Ohio- came up. What will it take we wondered for a model railroad to be considered good eneugh in the 21st Century?

Here are my top ten attributes in no particular order.

1.Prototype BasedL Many, perhaps most new model railraods either embrace a specific prototype or, if freelanced, are prototype based. This trend is partly the result of manufacturors and importers producing accurate, well detailed, models, making the tast of modeling one railroad much easier. The wealth of information in magasines, books, videos, the internet, and from railroad historical societies is also a factor, as is the increaced ease of sharing information.

Freelacning isn't going out of style. Several excellent "rivet-counting" modelers have recently decided to build freelanced model railroads. Nor is "free-style" freelancing passe; the free spritis among us are unlikely to be swayed by any rationaliuzation that inhibites their options.

2: Sound:The layouts I managed to see during the National Model Rairlaod association's 2005 convention in Cincinnati all featured locomotives with sound.

The next step will be to add background sounds. Chirping birds. clanking industries, roaring traffic, barking dogs, - and several firms have products of this type.

3. DCC Like sound many of us either are using digital command control, or we're offering excuses as to why we don't have it yet. Radio cabs are also gaining popularity. Conventional DC control will be around forever, but the advantages of DCC are clear.

4 Fineness of Detail: The days when clunky window mullions, handrails and grab irons 6 scale inches in diameter, and trees that look like bottle brushes were accetable, are thankfully behind us. Scale-size HO couplers are becoming a defacto standard. Smaller flanges and narrow whell treads are coming to. such as "code 88" (.088 wide) HO Wheels.

5. Realisitc operation: if our railroads don't operate as realistically as they look, we're giving up alot of value we already paid for.

6. Staging: Almost everyone now seems to understand that trains should appear to come from and go to places beyond the layout. Now the debate is centered on wheather to use passive staging traks or active fiddle trackswere trains are remade during, rather than before, an operating session.

7. Backwards Engineering: Pick your operating goals first. Then design the railraod to achieve them. Thats why multilevel layouts have become so common. Now we need to do a better job of planning our layout illumination up front.

8. Edit your goals. Just because your new home has a gymnasium size basement doesn't mean you should model all of your favorite railroads. Pick one and do it well.

9. Slow Down! Retired professional rairlaoder Jack Ozanich urges fellow modelers to take the time to enjoy rairlaoding in miniature. We still run too fast. And arguments that we dont have time to, say dictate and copy train orders are largely based on our lack of understandingof and appreciation for how the pros did their jobs.

10. Pay Attention: see what others are doing. If everyone in your circle is using brand x DCC, for example, thats a huge knowledge base that you'll be wise to tap ino. Model rairlaod operators from coast to coast understand four cycle waybills in car cards, but we seem to be reinventing this wheel with hard to decipher new systems offering few tangible benifits.

That said, If you do come up with a really great new idea, be sure to share it with the rest of us. After all we'd still be running silent locomotives using car batteries of someone with a better idea hadn't stepped forward."

While Mr. Keoster rightfully makes several good points. Especially towards the end. The tone of his article is clearly comes off as If you aren't modeling some prototype railroad down to every last door hinge, running DCC with sound. Your layout is not "good eneugh" to even be a model railraod. However, Look at all those nice expensive new items that make it easy for you to get back up to snuff.

And I have to disagree with the "good eneugh" philosphy being a measure of the state of the art. The "good eneugh" mentality as described by Allen McClelland himself in the V&O Afton Division finalle video by Pentrex was that if you can create one harmonous "big picture" then that was good eneugh and you need not sweat about the tiny details ad nausaum.