A comparison between Challengers

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Banger1: 32 cars and you had to do all THAT? Funny, my Rivarossi Allegheny will do that and more up my 2.4 WITHOUT traction tires, and my BLI AC-5 does that and more regularly, just out of the box. Maybe, like the UP prototype, the Lionel Challenger just isn't built for grades. You guys out there ever think about that? UP and their piddly little 1.5% over Sherman Hill? Maybe Athearn and Lionel are trying to tell you something--THE CHALLENGER IS NOT A HEAVY-DUTY FREIGHT DRAG ENGINE! At least not those little 97,000lb. TE UP jobs. You want pulling power? Get yourself an AC or a Yellowstone!

The UP Challengers were never designed to be drag engines, but a higher horsepower/speed replacement for the 4-12-2's. Both engines had essentially the same starting tractive effort, but the Challenger was good for roughly an additional 1000 HP.

As for the Allegheny, it was also a high horsepower engine misused as a drag engine to haul coal and cost about 80% more than a Norfolk and Western A for a mere 1200 HP increment.

The Y-6B. Now THAT was a drag engine.

Andre

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Banger1: 32 cars and you had to do all THAT? Funny, my Rivarossi Allegheny will do that and more up my 2.4 WITHOUT traction tires, and my BLI AC-5 does that and more regularly, just out of the box. Maybe, like the UP prototype, the Lionel Challenger just isn't built for grades. You guys out there ever think about that? UP and their piddly little 1.5% over Sherman Hill? Maybe Athearn and Lionel are trying to tell you something--THE CHALLENGER IS NOT A HEAVY-DUTY FREIGHT DRAG ENGINE! At least not those little 97,000lb. TE UP jobs. You want pulling power? Get yourself an AC or a Yellowstone!

[(-D] [(-D] [(-D] YEAH! Either this is funny or I've had too many margaritas!

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Banger1: 32 cars and you had to do all THAT? Funny, my Rivarossi Allegheny will do that and more up my 2.4 WITHOUT traction tires, and my BLI AC-5 does that and more regularly, just out of the box. Maybe, like the UP prototype, the Lionel Challenger just isn't built for grades. You guys out there ever think about that? UP and their piddly little 1.5% over Sherman Hill? Maybe Athearn and Lionel are trying to tell you something--THE CHALLENGER IS NOT A HEAVY-DUTY FREIGHT DRAG ENGINE! At least not those little 97,000lb. TE UP jobs. You want pulling power? Get yourself an AC or a Yellowstone!

[(-D] [(-D] [(-D] YEAH! Either this is funny or I've had too many margaritas!

[twhite]

Banger1: 32 cars and you had to do all THAT? Funny, my Rivarossi Allegheny will do that and more up my 2.4 WITHOUT traction tires, and my BLI AC-5 does that and more regularly, just out of the box. Maybe, like the UP prototype, the Lionel Challenger just isn't built for grades. You guys out there ever think about that? UP and their piddly little 1.5% over Sherman Hill? Maybe Athearn and Lionel are trying to tell you something--THE CHALLENGER IS NOT A HEAVY-DUTY FREIGHT DRAG ENGINE! At least not those little 97,000lb. TE UP jobs. You want pulling power? Get yourself an AC or a Yellowstone!

[twhite]

Banger1: 32 cars and you had to do all THAT? Funny, my Rivarossi Allegheny will do that and more up my 2.4 WITHOUT traction tires, and my BLI AC-5 does that and more regularly, just out of the box. Maybe, like the UP prototype, the Lionel Challenger just isn't built for grades. You guys out there ever think about that? UP and their piddly little 1.5% over Sherman Hill? Maybe Athearn and Lionel are trying to tell you something--THE CHALLENGER IS NOT A HEAVY-DUTY FREIGHT DRAG ENGINE! At least not those little 97,000lb. TE UP jobs. You want pulling power? Get yourself an AC or a Yellowstone!

[Anonymous]

I model in two scales, n scale and 12" =1'. I own two challengers, both rivarossi . Now that they are out of business, I am waiting to see what develops. Surely they won't forget the "wee folk" of the hobby. Incidentally, my Father's day was spent in the cab of the 3985 from Conway, Ar to Russellville Ar!!! What a treat

[Anonymous]

I model in two scales, n scale and 12" =1'. I own two challengers, both rivarossi . Now that they are out of business, I am waiting to see what develops. Surely they won't forget the "wee folk" of the hobby. Incidentally, my Father's day was spent in the cab of the 3985 from Conway, Ar to Russellville Ar!!! What a treat

[Anonymous]

AggroJones :
stated and Asked
Mind boggling. The Lionel Challenger. How can a locomotive that weighs 31 oz be such a weak puller? Is it the plating on the drivers? Can the plating be worn off? Are the pony and/or trailing trucks taking weight off the drivers? Can anyone with this steamer anwser these questions?

The following tip on the Lionel Challenger is copied from Tony'sTrains page and it very good if you want to improve the Lionel engine. Check out the tender weight, about 1.25 lbs. That is equal to quite a few cars with the brakes on if you don't lubricate the tender wheels.
It might answer some of your questions.

Thanks to Tone's Trains and Bob Liberman for this information.
This article below is under Lionel Challenger Tweaking

Thanks to Bob Liberman for more details on Tweaking Lionel Challenger.

I received my Lionel Union Pacific Challenger, took it out of the box, put it on my program track and put it on the railroad! This locomotive weights 2lb’s and to my amazement the tender weights 1.25lb’s.

I ran the locomotive on my railroad as a caboose hop for a shake down run. Here is what I noticed about this run.

The speed was just a little fast for my taste.
The whistle had a little too much reverb, and not enough base. (UP Challenger & Big Boys had very low base saturated steam whistles)
The locomotive chuff was a little bit too tinny and a little bit too loud for my ears.
I returned to my largest yard and backed up to a 25-car train for the second part of my test, pulling power. The train left the yard and ran pretty well, with a 2lb locomotive I did not expect much trouble with 25 3.5 oz cars.

The steepest grade on my layout 2.5% and it is 35 feet long and has a 40 deg radius curve on it. About half way up the hill the Challenger stalled to my amazement, I backed the train down the grade and took the locomotive to the shop.

In the Shop

First thing I did was to remove the heavy spring from the pilot truck.
Second I removed the tender shell and took out the weight from the back of the tender.
I oiled all of the tender axles and all the axles on the locomotive.
I removed the sound unit and took off the bar that holds the speakers and slid the speakers back far enough to insert a small amount of cotton in the bottom of speaker box to soften the chuff and add some base to the whistle.
Reassembled the tender and prepared for my second attack of the hill.
Test #2 attack on the hill, this time the train went to the top of the hill with out spinning a driver and it now will pull 32 cars up the grade. The detail on this locomotive is amazing and the fidelity to the prototype is wonderful and this locomotive will fit in the scope of my railroad. If you need a UP challenger for your railroad this is a great locomotive.

[Anonymous]

AggroJones :
stated and Asked
Mind boggling. The Lionel Challenger. How can a locomotive that weighs 31 oz be such a weak puller? Is it the plating on the drivers? Can the plating be worn off? Are the pony and/or trailing trucks taking weight off the drivers? Can anyone with this steamer anwser these questions?

The following tip on the Lionel Challenger is copied from Tony'sTrains page and it very good if you want to improve the Lionel engine. Check out the tender weight, about 1.25 lbs. That is equal to quite a few cars with the brakes on if you don't lubricate the tender wheels.
It might answer some of your questions.

Thanks to Tone's Trains and Bob Liberman for this information.
This article below is under Lionel Challenger Tweaking

Thanks to Bob Liberman for more details on Tweaking Lionel Challenger.

I received my Lionel Union Pacific Challenger, took it out of the box, put it on my program track and put it on the railroad! This locomotive weights 2lb’s and to my amazement the tender weights 1.25lb’s.

I ran the locomotive on my railroad as a caboose hop for a shake down run. Here is what I noticed about this run.

The speed was just a little fast for my taste.
The whistle had a little too much reverb, and not enough base. (UP Challenger & Big Boys had very low base saturated steam whistles)
The locomotive chuff was a little bit too tinny and a little bit too loud for my ears.
I returned to my largest yard and backed up to a 25-car train for the second part of my test, pulling power. The train left the yard and ran pretty well, with a 2lb locomotive I did not expect much trouble with 25 3.5 oz cars.

The steepest grade on my layout 2.5% and it is 35 feet long and has a 40 deg radius curve on it. About half way up the hill the Challenger stalled to my amazement, I backed the train down the grade and took the locomotive to the shop.

In the Shop

First thing I did was to remove the heavy spring from the pilot truck.
Second I removed the tender shell and took out the weight from the back of the tender.
I oiled all of the tender axles and all the axles on the locomotive.
I removed the sound unit and took off the bar that holds the speakers and slid the speakers back far enough to insert a small amount of cotton in the bottom of speaker box to soften the chuff and add some base to the whistle.
Reassembled the tender and prepared for my second attack of the hill.
Test #2 attack on the hill, this time the train went to the top of the hill with out spinning a driver and it now will pull 32 cars up the grade. The detail on this locomotive is amazing and the fidelity to the prototype is wonderful and this locomotive will fit in the scope of my railroad. If you need a UP challenger for your railroad this is a great locomotive.

[Anonymous]

Well after hearing all the bad news about the lionel (and knowing their track record) i'd vote for the Athearn. Unless of course I could find a recent run by Riv. for dirt cheap. :-)

[Anonymous]

Well after hearing all the bad news about the lionel (and knowing their track record) i'd vote for the Athearn. Unless of course I could find a recent run by Riv. for dirt cheap. :-)

[Morpar]

Put my vote in for the Bowser. I picked mine up for $125, including the detail kit and centipede tender from my LHS consignment rack. It is still in pieces in the box, but my plan is to detail it to look like a D&RGW L-105. Since I freelance, it doesn't have to be perfect, although the major dimensions are very close anyway so why not? At least it isn't yet another UP Challenger. Can't beat front mounted pumps and Elesco heater on a modern loco! And let's face it, Bowser locos have a proven track record, nobody can honestly say how either the Athearn or the Lionel will fare in 5 or 10 years of use. Also, for the price difference, I can easily re-gear and/or re-motor the Bowser and save a bunch! BTW, anyone got a large L-105 style tender they might want to swap for a Rivarossi centipede tender?

[Morpar]

Put my vote in for the Bowser. I picked mine up for $125, including the detail kit and centipede tender from my LHS consignment rack. It is still in pieces in the box, but my plan is to detail it to look like a D&RGW L-105. Since I freelance, it doesn't have to be perfect, although the major dimensions are very close anyway so why not? At least it isn't yet another UP Challenger. Can't beat front mounted pumps and Elesco heater on a modern loco! And let's face it, Bowser locos have a proven track record, nobody can honestly say how either the Athearn or the Lionel will fare in 5 or 10 years of use. Also, for the price difference, I can easily re-gear and/or re-motor the Bowser and save a bunch! BTW, anyone got a large L-105 style tender they might want to swap for a Rivarossi centipede tender?

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, heres a sixth vote for an NP or DRGW 4-6-6-4!

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, heres a sixth vote for an NP or DRGW 4-6-6-4!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

Mind boggling. The Lionel Challenger. How can a locomotive that weighs 31 oz be such a weak puller? Is it the plating on the drivers? Can the plating be worn off? Are the pony and/or trailing trucks taking weight off the drivers? Can anyone with this steamer anwser these questions?

I was about to get one of them during that Trainworld 10% off sale, but I remembered they can't pull worth a darn, so I didn't. Plus the boiler detail on my Rivarossi is better than the $700 MSRP Lionel one!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

Mind boggling. The Lionel Challenger. How can a locomotive that weighs 31 oz be such a weak puller? Is it the plating on the drivers? Can the plating be worn off? Are the pony and/or trailing trucks taking weight off the drivers? Can anyone with this steamer anwser these questions?

I was about to get one of them during that Trainworld 10% off sale, but I remembered they can't pull worth a darn, so I didn't. Plus the boiler detail on my Rivarossi is better than the $700 MSRP Lionel one!

[AggroJones]

Mind boggling. The Lionel Challenger. How can a locomotive that weighs 31 oz be such a weak puller? Is it the plating on the drivers? Can the plating be worn off? Are the pony and/or trailing trucks taking weight off the drivers? Can anyone with this steamer anwser these questions?

[AggroJones]

Mind boggling. The Lionel Challenger. How can a locomotive that weighs 31 oz be such a weak puller? Is it the plating on the drivers? Can the plating be worn off? Are the pony and/or trailing trucks taking weight off the drivers? Can anyone with this steamer anwser these questions?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbfcsme
James, like this?
[image]http://www.brasstrains.com/inventoryimages/000489.jpg[/image]
Yes, it was born a Bowser!! Check www.brasstrains.com ,current inventory, UP, for a detailed listing!
Frankly, if I felt I had to own one of these engines, I'd rather save my money for the Key brass version. My only use for Athearn is kitbashing fodder, and the Lionel version is tooooo slippery.

Yes! Yes! Exactly! It's also in Version B of my favorite steam loco paint scheme to!. Also being in the custom painting business I find the price pretty reasonable to. Alas I would rather do my own stuff though. But My birthday is this weekend. [:D] Do I have any takers? [8D]

Now if we could just start a wave of motorizing Revell-Monogram/Con-Cor Big Boy kits.

James

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbfcsme
James, like this?
[image]http://www.brasstrains.com/inventoryimages/000489.jpg[/image]
Yes, it was born a Bowser!! Check www.brasstrains.com ,current inventory, UP, for a detailed listing!
Frankly, if I felt I had to own one of these engines, I'd rather save my money for the Key brass version. My only use for Athearn is kitbashing fodder, and the Lionel version is tooooo slippery.

Yes! Yes! Exactly! It's also in Version B of my favorite steam loco paint scheme to!. Also being in the custom painting business I find the price pretty reasonable to. Alas I would rather do my own stuff though. But My birthday is this weekend. [:D] Do I have any takers? [8D]

Now if we could just start a wave of motorizing Revell-Monogram/Con-Cor Big Boy kits.

James

[hd8091]

Neither, I was disappointed with the Athearn 2-8-2 AND 4-6-2 when they came out and I don't trust Lionel to be here long to support their product. GO NP Z-6

[hd8091]

Neither, I was disappointed with the Athearn 2-8-2 AND 4-6-2 when they came out and I don't trust Lionel to be here long to support their product. GO NP Z-6

[twhite]

Aggrojones and DMIR230, thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU! Now is anybody else out there listening when it comes to a 4-6-6-4? ANYONE? If so, let's form a sort of Underground and pick away at the UP mania like the Danish did to the Germans in WWII. In effect: Overwhelmed, but NEVER CONQUERED! Eventually, the L-105 and the Z-6 WILL PREVAIL!

[twhite]

Aggrojones and DMIR230, thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU! Now is anybody else out there listening when it comes to a 4-6-6-4? ANYONE? If so, let's form a sort of Underground and pick away at the UP mania like the Danish did to the Germans in WWII. In effect: Overwhelmed, but NEVER CONQUERED! Eventually, the L-105 and the Z-6 WILL PREVAIL!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

QUOTE: Originally posted by the-big-blow

Which are you more likely to buy?

A fully diecast Lionel Challenger for $699 MSRP
Or a plastic Athearn Genesis Challenger $599 MSRP

And the winner is.... Bowser!
Die cast locomtove kit $182.95
Super Detail Kit $ 91.95
Centipede Tender Kit $ 54.95
Total $329.95

and the best part is, I get to put it together my self. Any custom modifications I want to make are easier, and I also get to break out the airbrush and can choose my favoirtie paint scheme and number. And if UP doesn't fit my fancy, There is always D&RGW (2 types), Clinchfield, Western Maryland, Delaware & Hudson, Northern Pacific, and Spokane Portland & Seattle, if I so desire as well.

James

James, like this?
[image]http://www.brasstrains.com/inventoryimages/000489.jpg[/image]
Yes, it was born a Bowser!! Check www.brasstrains.com ,current inventory, UP, for a detailed listing!
Frankly, if I felt I had to own one of these engines, I'd rather save my money for the Key brass version. My only use for Athearn is kitbashing fodder, and the Lionel version is tooooo slippery.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

QUOTE: Originally posted by the-big-blow

Which are you more likely to buy?

A fully diecast Lionel Challenger for $699 MSRP
Or a plastic Athearn Genesis Challenger $599 MSRP

And the winner is.... Bowser!
Die cast locomtove kit $182.95
Super Detail Kit $ 91.95
Centipede Tender Kit $ 54.95
Total $329.95

and the best part is, I get to put it together my self. Any custom modifications I want to make are easier, and I also get to break out the airbrush and can choose my favoirtie paint scheme and number. And if UP doesn't fit my fancy, There is always D&RGW (2 types), Clinchfield, Western Maryland, Delaware & Hudson, Northern Pacific, and Spokane Portland & Seattle, if I so desire as well.

James

James, like this?
[image]http://www.brasstrains.com/inventoryimages/000489.jpg[/image]
Yes, it was born a Bowser!! Check www.brasstrains.com ,current inventory, UP, for a detailed listing!
Frankly, if I felt I had to own one of these engines, I'd rather save my money for the Key brass version. My only use for Athearn is kitbashing fodder, and the Lionel version is tooooo slippery.

[Anonymous]

I would wait for a brass one to be released. Forget the Athearn thing and the Lionel thing a ma do. Besides I would not want a UP Challenger, NP or SP&S would be way better.

[Anonymous]

I would wait for a brass one to be released. Forget the Athearn thing and the Lionel thing a ma do. Besides I would not want a UP Challenger, NP or SP&S would be way better.

[AggroJones]

I keep hearing that the Lionel Challengers ,which weigh 31 oz without tender, can barely pull anything. You'd expect somthing that heavy to be powerful, but nope. If I were to jump in on one, I'd say the Genesis.

Even if the Genesis is plastic , stock it may have more tractive force than the Lionel.

And twhite, I'd be for a D&RGW or NP/GN 4-6-6-4 too.