suitcase connectors

[Anonymous]

I believe it was at Mastiffdog's suggestion that I originally tried the Posi-Tap connectors.
For layout wiring there is nothing better! I used to solder everything and have burn scars to prove it. Then I went to suitcase connectors. I managed to destroy about one in ten installing them--with the proper tools, I might add. Then I switched to Posi-Taps. I am to the point that I can install one in under a minute, including stripping the feeder wire. And there have been no failures to date.

John Timm

[olequa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

I have to keep on going back and retigntining them everyonce in a while.

The same way as I get inside my 200 amp panel box at the house and garage and make sure the wires are tight!

If you don't then you are living on borrowed time.

When the fire alarm goes off I will be over to help put out the fire!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

I guess a lot of us are living on borrowed time then.

[cmrproducts]

I have to keep on going back and retigntining them everyonce in a while.

The same way as I get inside my 200 amp panel box at the house and garage and make sure the wires are tight!

If you don't then you are living on borrowed time.

When the fire alarm goes off I will be over to help put out the fire!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[olequa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

What it all boils down to is that any non soldered connection will eventually fail.
BOB H – Clarion, PA

I got to thinking about this. What about the connections on the back of your power pack or DCC box? Are they soldered? Nope, screw terminals. Do they corrode or fail? Nope, they work forever. Then it seems likely to me that the PosiTap connectors will perform similarly, since they are in essence screw terminals.

g

[Anonymous]

Yeah Bob, that's it - no one knows how to solder properly! Right, that's the real reason.

As John Stossel on 20-20 ABC News says, "Gimme a break!"

[olequa]

I started wiring up the main tonight using the posi-taps. They're great! I made a lot of progress in a matter of minutes with no hassles. These things look pretty professional. They have a lot of contact surface area. I was worried a little about the piercing action, but on taking apart a sample I found no broken strands.

Thanks for the tip, mdog!

george

[cmrproducts]

What it all boils down to is that any non soldered connection will eventually fail. Did you ever wonder why there all of those unexplained house fires? Because the wire nuts have failed.

I found them coming loose in my old house that was built new in 1976. This was in 1988 as I was redoing some of the outlets and the wire nuts were coming loose. I was really glad that I found them. I checked all of the rest of them in the house after finding that.

I also had the electrical meter connection on the outside of the house fail. And this is a connection that never goes bad. Now I know that these are extreme cases but it is still a mechanical connection not soldered.

And for the short term the mechanical connections will work but in a high humidity setting they will eventually break down.

And the real reason is that no one knows how to solder properly, isn’t it?

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Soo Line fan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mastiffdog

QUOTE: Originally posted by Soo Line fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa


Do you have to thread the 'hot' lead thru the device or does the device have a slot sot that it just slips onto the wire?

I was wondering the same thing. I found this graphic:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/posi-tap/posi-tap.htm

Jim

Jim, great article you found. This should answer lots of questions for folks who are interested in trying out the Posi-Taps. It might even convince ole Bob H to give 'em a try, Bob?

Mastiffdog, thanks for posting the info.

The posi-taps passed some pretty stringent testing by SAE, which does not give its blessing to junk. The beloved scotchlock cannot make that claim. The only objection to these might be cost, but be aware that one connector takes the place of up to 3 - 4 scotchlocks. They are also reusable.

Here is another link: http://www.engineeringtalk.com/news/anb/anb100.html

I looked for some today in the parts store but they did not have any, I will try Wal-Mart. I plan on using some for automotive work and will report back.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Now Bob, play nice! I know, you know and we all know that a Posi-Tap or any other mechanical connection component we're referencing in this thread are not appropriate for loco/decoder installations. So sorry, no sale, your example doesn't hold water (or should I say "current") LOL

And Bob, another thing, you aren't listening to what we're all saying here. We have had flawless results with our Posi-Taps and I haven't heard of one failure for our application. You continue to want to solder, and that's fine, but don't keep telling us they are going to fail. What evidence can you share that they will eventually fail?

So far you have provided us with none. Mine work fine and Larry's seem to work fine too. I have read success stories on other model railroad sites as well, but no failures.

I have no objection to soldering and for specific applications it may be the only method that is appropriate.

Back in the 1960's you may recall that Dr. Suess wrote a kid's book called "Green Eggs and Ham". Bob, you kinda of remind me of "Sam". Sam would not eat Green Eggs and Ham. Until he tried them!

[cmrproducts]

What ever!

I solder ALL my connections.

So I NEVER will have to try and convince myself of any other type of connection.

If these are so good are you all going to use them on DCC decoder installs. IT sure would be faster then. And then we could all have fun trying to figure out why the decoder keeps on resetting!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Soo Line fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa


Do you have to thread the 'hot' lead thru the device or does the device have a slot sot that it just slips onto the wire?

I was wondering the same thing. I found this graphic:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/posi-tap/posi-tap.htm

Jim

Jim, great article you found. This should answer lots of questions for folks who are interested in trying out the Posi-Taps. It might even convince ole Bob H to give 'em a try, Bob?

[Anonymous]

Olequa, yes, they do have a slot for the main bus to slide right into! It's easy and very quick - just lay the bus right in the slot and screw down the mating piece.

Larry, glad you like 'em, you'll zip through that wiring faster than you ever thought, and it will be a clean and professional looking installation - no muss - no fuss!

Bob, all I can say to you is that regrets have no future. You just keep on waiting!

[olequa]

I went over and got some sample positaps today. They are vey well made. I'll take them home and do some tests on them tonight (I'm a little concerned about the piercing action). But overall they look like just what the doctor ordered. Better than suitcase connectors but somewhat expensive.

george

[cmrproducts]

Yep! They work great NOW - But just wait!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[cmrproducts]

Yep! They work good NOW - But just wait!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

I just finished hooking up my bus lines to my feeders on my shelf layout using the posi-tap connectors and everything went flawlessly. It took substantially less time than soldering and the connector contacts are bullet proof. All sections are working properly and best of all, these connectors can be used more than once. I purchased these connectors (package of 6) at Walmart and they are about a buck a piece. I initially checked the connection using a spare piece of bus line and a section of 20g feeder to see how they worked. Since they thread tight against the bus line and feeder, they won't be backing off. I then purchased off the internet from the www.posi-lock.com website. Best of all, you can attach more than one pair of feeders to the posi-tap connector, depending on the gauge of feeder used. Thanks Mastiffdog.

Larry

[tomikawaTT]

Regardless of how you connect your wiring (my opinion is in my earlier posting to this thread) there are tremendous advantages to keeping all of it right at the edge of the aisleway, behind easily-removed sections of valance. Bringing every drop wire, switch machine connection and signal or building lamp lead directly to the table edge means:

All soldering is done at tabletop level, not overhead.
It's easy to use terminal strips.
Absolutely no need to stand on one's head to do under-the-table electrical work.
Easy to neatly cable everything.
Connector labels can be read without a flashlight.

You don't label your connectors? Next time you have to troubleshoot an electrical glitch, you'll be wishing you had.

Chuck.

[Soo Line fan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa


Do you have to thread the 'hot' lead thru the device or does the device have a slot sot that it just slips onto the wire?

I was wondering the same thing. I found this graphic:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/posi-tap/posi-tap.htm

Jim

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by maandg

My experiences are the same as Joe's. Mine have been in place for nearly five years with no problems whatsoever. By the way, I also solder every rail joiner and have power feeders every 3 to 4 feet. When dealing with 12-gauge bus wires, I find them particularly useful. I respect the opinions of those who have had trouble with them, but in my case, I hardily recommend them.

If I begin to have problems in another 10 years, I'll be the first to admit my mistake. I'll just be happy to have survived the bird flu. [;)]

Slightly off the subject, Cliff, but that's a nice scene in your signature. The backdrop really adds to it - did you take the photo yourself, or is it a commercial product?

[olequa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mastiffdog

Guys, I use these and they work great:



I have recommended these on this forum in several threads. Try 'em, you'll like 'em.

Here's the link so you can see it better than the image above:

http://www.posi-lock.com/NewFiles/posi-tap_n2_a.jpg

Do you have to thread the 'hot' lead thru the device or does the device have a slot sot that it just slips onto the wire?

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

This suitcase connector debate will go one forever just as what is the BEST (insert subject name here)!

Now those that state about soldering overhead is a problem, it can be! The easiest way I have found is to use the smallest diameter solder and have a good hot soldering gun (150 to 250 watts) (not a soldering pencil – 40 w). This will heat the joint fast and the solder will melt fast.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

Properly installed, Suitcase connectors will probably work just fine (he said never having used them on his layout). I have had them fail often when used in automotive situations. The only thing that I have had more problems with with automotive wiring is the crimp on connectors! I personally prefer to use soldered joints and or Terminal strips.

I avoid soldering over my head with a passion! I worked for a couple summers for the Telephone Company (Rochester, NY) about the time the suitcase connectors were first coming out. I have gotten a couple of bad burns from being careless with soldering irons and having molten solder fall on bare skin. I have no intention of losing an eye or badly burning myself by soldering under the layout. Amost all connections on my layout do involve soldering as I really don't think the suitcase connectors really are that good....... I use terminal strips for connections to my bus systems (DCC and DC) Wires connecting stuff are connected to the terminal strip with spade lugs. These are first crimped and then soldered. (Why? take that "solidly" crimped wire - spade lug and twist it a few times. I will usually fall off in your hand!) All soldering is done at the workbench and then installed under the layout. I do not strip any wires in the middle. Wires are cut and connected to terminal strips, and then connected to the next one and so forth. I also use both a main bus and several sub buses and then connect to the track for DCC. It looks more like a spider web. This provides the shortest run to get power to any spot on the layout.

Now, before several of you tell me what an idiot I am to do this, It works well for me, and I have some sound reasons for doing it this way. You can wire your layout any way you want......... (you don't have to like or agree with the way I do my wireing!)

[;)][;)][;)][;)][:D][:D][:D]

[maandg]

QUOTE:
Mark:

Do you come by this information from personal experience or from listening to others who likewise don't like suitcase connectors?

I ask because I have used them extensively on my Siskiyou Line and I have not had a single failure in 10 years of use. Not one failure - none - nada.

If they are all that bad, they should have gone off the market long ago along with all the other failed inventions.

My neighbor works for the phone company and they use the waterproof gell version of the IDCs all the time to do phone line repairs. He says the suitcase version we all know and love is a similar concept only without the waterproof gell added.

I think what it really comes down to is personal preference, rather than a long line of failed wiring that used these connectors. [swg]

My experiences are the same as Joe's. Mine have been in place for nearly five years with no problems whatsoever. By the way, I also solder every rail joiner and have power feeders every 3 to 4 feet. When dealing with 12-gauge bus wires, I find them particularly useful. I respect the opinions of those who have had trouble with them, but in my case, I hardily recommend them.

If I begin to have problems in another 10 years, I'll be the first to admit my mistake. I'll just be happy to have survived the bird flu. [;)]

[ham99]

I got a bag of the gel-filled connectors from a neighbor who works for the phone company. He used them when he connected my DSL line and there have been no problems. I have never had a problem with them in my basement layout. I have had problems with wirenuts. And I have been burned while soldering overhead. Nothing is perfect for everyone.

[emdgp92]

I've had suitcase connectors on my switching layout for the past 6 years with no problems. Keep in mind that my train room is in an outbuilding on my grandmother's farm. No climate control means the layout has to deal with temperature extremes--below zero, and above 100 F is common, along with humidity changes. The only problem I have is keeping the track clean.

[Soo Line fan]

One reason that the telecommunications industry can use the scotchlocks is the typical current draw on your phone line is only between 0.025 - 0.045 milliamps. Their installers are also out in the elements where soldering or crimping; along with tape or shrink wrapping may not be practical. Water intrusion is probably their main concern.

An alternative to the method that Bob H suggests for those who do not want to solder is to use what is keeping your home wiring intact - wire nuts. They come in a variety of sizes, can be used to connect different sizes / types of wires together and are economical. Serviceability is excellent because you can back probe one to check for voltage with out disconnecting or stripping the tape off. Very reliable. When was the last time you had an open/short/corrosion problem in your home wiring?

The connector Mastiffdog has suggested will work fine. Note the SAE testing done on it. The only tool required is a stripper; you also need a tool for the scotchlocks as well. I have not used one but have heard good feedback about the Posi-Taps. I do not think anyone will start calling them “comeback taps”.

There are other automotive connectors that will work as well, the crimp/solderless types. This type of method is dependent on the use of a good quality crimping tool. I do not mean the Wal- or K mart types. One thing to be aware of is they can only be used one time, which may or may not be problem.

Prior to getting into service engineering, I was an ASE Master Auto Technician for 20 years. I made a great deal of money repairing bad connections from other folk’s vehicles and the scotchlocks were a big part of that. I also belong to a professional forum. The scotchlocks have been discussed many times. I have not heard one person defend them for any 12v application. Our electrical lab has never used them for any type of testing, stationary or road.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3


Even these Posi-taps I have questions about. For example, do you have to strip the tapped wire, or does it pierce the insulation? Secondly, I have to question their advertising when they state in their ad (posted above) that "no tools (are) needed"...and yet step #3 tells you to strip the tap wire. Huh? I don't know about you, but I find that I need some kind of wire stripper to strip wire (IOW, a "tool"). What do they want us to use? Our teeth?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

Paul, the wire that you tap into, i.e. a 12 gauge bus does not get stripped, you are correct, it is pierced when the bottom two pieces of the Posi-Tap are screwed together. The smaller gauge wire, i.e. a 20 gauge feeder, does require stripping. You are also correct that a wire stripper tool is needed, but for the feeders only.

I think it is a reasonable expectation that a wire stripper is implicit in any wiring type activity. I think Posi-Tap was looking more at not requiring soldering tools, clamps, etc.[;)]

[beegle55]

I need to get updated on the newest things that are going on in the model railroading world... maybe just start over completly because I don't know much of the terminology and the newest things in model railroading (especially DCC)

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

Ah, the infamous suitcase connector (also known as an insulation displacement connector, or IDC) again!
.....

Mark:

Do you come by this information from personal experience or from listening to others who likewise don't like suitcase connectors?

I ask because I have used them extensively on my Siskiyou Line and I have not had a single failure in 10 years of use. Not one failure - none - nada.

If they are all that bad, they should have gone off the market long ago along with all the other failed inventions.

My neighbor works for the phone company and they use the waterproof gell version of the IDCs all the time to do phone line repairs. He says the suitcase version we all know and love is a similar concept only without the waterproof gell added.

I think what it really comes down to is personal preference, rather than a long line of failed wiring that used these connectors. [swg]

Sorry it took so long to answer, Joe.

My answer is both personal experience plus listening to others, with a dash of professional knowledge thrown into the mix.

I've never used them on my layout - my experiences have been primarily in automotive use, where I've had "professional" installers add trailer light wiring and stereo equipment using IDCs. All gave trouble after time, because of the suitcases.

I've also asked of some of the avionics and other electrical engineering folks I've worked with over the years about IDCs. None had any good things to say about them. No place I've ever worked (aerospace industry) has allowed their use, whether in the aircraft, spacecraft, or in the ground support equipment (hydraulic carts, portable electrical power carts, etc.).

The part about galvanic cororsion is from professional experience unrelated to the IDCs themselves - two different conductive materials in contact ALWAYS forms a connection that can be succeptible to galvanic corrosion to some extent. How succeptible depends on how dissimilar the materials are that are in contact.

The water-proof phone company IDCs probably eliminates most galvanic corrosion problems (since water can't get to the joint and act as an electrolyte), and I'll bet their use is strictly controlled. The phone company has all sorts of special stuff made for them that isn't generally available - their IDCs may be one of them. I'm sure they're very specific about how and when the IDCs can be used. Ask your neighbor how much training he had to go through, and what the actual procedure is, to install them.

If you don't experience problems with your IDCs, then maybe you have "the touch," and your layout environs are not conducive to corrosion.

Anyway, I hope that answers your questions, Joe. No personal model railroading experience since I won't use them on my layout, but experience and technical knowledge of other applications, and the mechanics of how they operate.

[cmrproducts]

This suitcase connector debate will go one forever just as what is the BEST (insert subject name here)!

Now those that state about soldering overhead is a problem, it can be! The easiest way I have found is to use the smallest diameter solder and have a good hot soldering gun (150 to 250 watts) (not a soldering pencil – 40 w). This will heat the joint fast and the solder will melt fast.

Also I made most of the Buss wire able to be pulled out from under the layout or at least to edge of the layout. To do this easily I used metal conduit clamps screwed to the underside of the layout. They will leave a small opening so that you can slide the Buss wires out and then bring them out to the edge or drop them down to solder the drop wires to them.

A lot of my benchwork is narrow enough that the Buss wires can be run on the front of the layout and a valance then covers up the Buss wire once all of the wiring is done.

I also use hand ground throws so I do not have to put any other wiring in place (which keeps the rats nest to minimum)!

As for keeping the soldered spots from touching each other without taping or insulating them, When I made my Buss wire pairs I taped them together every 18” or so with a wrap or two of colored electrical tape. What this does is keep the two Buss wires in a neat cable and then when I need to solder a drop wire I just use one of the grip type wire strippers to go in and slide the insulation back.

Now these spots are separated by 1 to 2 inches. I wrap the drop wires around the appropriate Buss wire and solder the drop wires. There is no way the 2 drop wires can ever touch each other as the electrical tape is holding the Buss wires together!

The heat from the soldering process will expand the insulation back together and usually (If you have a neat joint) will only leave a very small area of bare wire exposed!

BOB H – Clarion, PA