Hardshell Scenery--Does it really matter how?

[SpaceMouse]

I've got my cardboard run and I'm ready to go. I've got a ton of plaster of Paris and paper towels. It's a small layout and there really isn't a lot of area that I am going to cover. I plan a lot of trees on it, so planting them is an issue.

But I've read of people suggesting plater of Paris and paper towels.

Hydrocal and gauze.

Sculptamold.

Woodland Scenics plaster cloth.

Scenic Express plater cloth.

Keep in mind there are no hobby shops within comfortable driving range. I am going to a Greenberg show next week, but they are very spotty in what they have available.

What do you recommend?

[Anonymous]

I worked with foam on my last layout and loved it, no cardboard, slivers of cardboarfd strips, plaster or webbing...It was great - faster construction too.

[SpaceMouse]

I used foam on Tater Mountain. However, for this application, it was really not appropriate.

[nbrodar]

Plaster and paper towels is the cheapest, although, also the messiest. The plaster cloth is more expensive, but much neater.

If you can get it plaster cloth is the way to go. If on a budget, and already have plaster and paper towels, there's nothing wrong with using them, just make sure to take precautions to contain the mess.

Nick

[bogp40]

Foam is fantastic for tree planting, however, depending on your framework and scenery contours a combined use of foam and plaster can work. There's so many various methods and combinations you will need to find what will work best for you. Flat areas with ply/foam base tend to work good to tier the layers of foam for the hill etc. Large open grid with riser subroadbed/ spline tend to work better for screening or cardboard strips. Sculptamold over plasterchoth or cheesecloth is another choice.
Chip, if you haven't seen Dave Frarey's 3rd edition scenery book you should check it out, can answer a mulitude of your questions.

[ARTHILL]

Hi spacemouse. Did you miss me?. Glad to hear the layout is making headway. I find that PofP and trees is a small problem. If the plaster is thin you can poke a hole with an awl. If it is thick, a dremel works better. To make the trees stand I have tried hot glue from below and above. With some care above works better but care needs to be taken so the glue pile looks like roots and can be painted. Just sticking the trees in the hardshell has not worked for me. I have had bad luck with sticky glue also. I have not tried wet PofP at the planting stage. Let us know what you learn because I have 1000 more tree to plant.

[Anonymous]

All those methods work. If you are planting trees foam is the best because drilling 700 holes for trees in plaster is a PIA. Then there is cleaning up all that white dust. If the shell is 1/8 inch thick there isnt much to hold the trees upright. Have fun. Fred

[fwright]

Chip

I only have limited experience on 2 layouts. The 1st, I could not locate Hydrocal. It was an open grid table layout, so I had some fairly big expanses to cover. Without Hydrocal, I was worried that Plaster of Paris and paper towels would not be strong enough. Also, the open grid did not make any easy way to support the plaster and towels with wadded newspaper. So I used some fiberglass window screen for my plaster support. I laid the paper towels soaked in plaster on top of the screen and it reasonably well. As I went on, I found could simply brush a thick plaster mix onto the screen, and that would work, too; albeit with some "flow-through" to the floor - you did cover the carpert before you started plastering?

Some of the things I encountered:

Paper towels - for the most part - would tear into pieces in my hand after being dunked in the plaster mix. I learned to use the paper towels with the cloth reinforcement fibers in them to avoid this. I forget the brand, but you need strong paper towels.

Paper towels and plaster make good rugged scenery. In fact, it is quite difficult to get smooth terrain using this method.

I never got around to mounting trees, but expected to drill individual holes.

On my Dad's layout, I tried scenicking a section using plaster impregnated gauze. I used some pieces of broken-up beadboard styrofoam as supports. My findings:

Gauze is not nearly as messy to work with as paper towels.

The gauze produces a smoother terrain, although getting all the creases and folds out is almost impossible.

The gauze takes up the underlying suport shape much more than the paper towels on screen. The gauze is not as "stiff" when being applied. The corners and edges of the styrofoam were simply encased in plaster - the shape was replicated in the plaster. This is unlike the screen which merely served as a rough guide - I could rearrange the terrain even with the 1st layer of paper towels.

The gauze required a second coat - either of straight plaster or of gauze and plaster - to cover the weave of the gauze. The same was true with plaster applied directly to the screen.

I think my choice of methods the next time would depend on type of terrain sought, and the underlying support structure. With a flat table top, I think I would use foam the next time, covered with plaster or structolite if needed for rougher terrain. With an open grid (and weight not an issue), I would use foam for relatively flat or smooth terrain, and palster on screen or cheesecloth for the more rugged areas. I would consider using gauze in tight locations - between parallel tracks and similar situations. I have heard of some wetting the plaster gauze with water in place - that would be the cleanest method if it worked for me.

Hydrocal is strong enough to be a self-supporting hard shell once it sets. Plaster of Paris is usually used with some underlying support - cardboard web, screen, cheese cloth, etc. Structolite - I've never used it - probably needs support like Plaster of Paris. However, it is a lot lighter, and has a texture like crumbs embedded in it.

Good scenery can be built with all the methods and materials. Some methods and materials lend themselves to particular situations better than others.

Hope this helps
Fred W

[htgguy]

I don't think anyone besides Nick has given a reason why it does matter. I used POP and either paper towels or coffee filters on the hardshell I have done so far. They both worked fine and both were a mess. That's just part of the fun. As far as planting trees, no question foam is a lot easier but I have used a small drill bit to make holes in the hardshell for the trunk and white glue to hold it in place. It's not perfect and I need to look at other options.

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks guys. I'm getting the picture. I have Dave Frarey's book but it is AOL.

What if I increased the thickness to add support to the trees?

BTW: I have foam over 90% of the layout. This terrain is between the levels and in awkward spaces.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Thanks guys. I'm getting the picture. I have Dave Frarey's book but it is AOL.

What if I increased the thickness to add support to the trees?

BTW: I have foam over 90% of the layout. This terrain is between the levels and in awkward spaces.

Sculptamold or structolite will give a good thickness for tree planting. The finish won't be as smooth, but it is a forest floor and should have a lot of weeds and undergrowth anyway.
I like to use dyed unical plaster and run the last layer thick enough to hold most trees. Stubborn trees can be held by adding foam under or shooting the underside with great stuff. The brown colored plaster won't leave the problem white drilling dust, just flick or blow it about to blend into the scenery.
Bob K.

[jecorbett]

The only one I wouldn't use for the shell is Sculptamold. It isn't strong enough. Any of the plaster products should give you a good strong base. I use paint a skim coat over my shell to smooth it at and strengthen any weak spots.

[grandeman]

Space, plaster and paper towels will work well at much less cost than the plaster cloth. I've used both methods and will use paper towels from now on.

A couple of tips,

1/ Add a little Woodland Scenics earth base color to the plaster. I wish i'd have done it that way. This should help prevent white spots in your scenes if the hardshell is dinged later on.

2/ Use a two-step process. First, mix the plaster to a watery consistency, dip the towel individually, and apply them to the newspaper/cardboard strip structure you've made. Next, after allowing the first step to dry, add a standard plaster mix to the paper towels. I use my hands for this and sculpt the plaster with an old toothbrush and/or and old paint brush as I go.

Hope that helps you some. [:)]

[ARTHILL]

Hi Chip. It easier and cheaper to hot glue the trees than to make the plaster thick enough. There is also the weight factor and the problem of cutting a hole in thck plaster when you change your mind or want to add a rock or something. I also use premixed, lightweight drywall seam cement for a top coat and to add small details. It does not dry fast enough to hold the trees.

[nbrodar]

Chip,

How big are these trees? Full trees with trucks? Or just tops? Art's right. It's easier to just glue the trees on top of the shell, particularly if all you're going to see is tree tops.

Nick

[Anonymous]

I would use a foam with plaster. You can get foam from your local lumber yard and it is much easier to work with. Mistakes are also less noticable too.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

1/ Add a little Woodland Scenics earth base color to the plaster. I wish i'd have done it that way. This should help prevent white spots in your scenes if the hardshell is dinged later on.

Grande man,
I have tried the WS colors and the liquid Sacrete coloring in the past. They just don't darken the plaster enough for my needs. I feel that adding too much of the liquids is not only a waste but can affect the properties of the cured plaster. For this reason I have switched to using powdered masonry dyes. I used to use this for colored concrete and mortor, when doing masonry work years ago. They work fantastic for coloring castings and base coats of scenery plaster. This product is formulated for masonry and has no affect on the mixing, workability, drying or curing of the plaster. It comes in various colors and when added to the dry plaster what you see is the final dried color. Many of the rock castings done this way have only needed light washes and dry brushing. Chips and nicks don't show at all. Use it to color plaster for roads as well. Might be worth a try

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Robert Knapp

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

1/ Add a little Woodland Scenics earth base color to the plaster. I wish i'd have done it that way. This should help prevent white spots in your scenes if the hardshell is dinged later on.

Grande man,
I have tried the WS colors and the liquid Sacrete coloring in the past. They just don't darken the plaster enough for my needs. I feel that adding too much of the liquids is not only a waste but can affect the properties of the cured plaster. For this reason I have switched to using powdered masonry dyes. I used to use this for colored concrete and mortor, when doing masonry work years ago. They work fantastic for coloring castings and base coats of scenery plaster. This product is formulated for masonry and has no affect on the mixing, workability, drying or curing of the plaster. It comes in various colors and when added to the dry plaster what you see is the final dried color. Many of the rock castings done this way have only needed light washes and dry brushing. Chips and nicks don't show at all. Use it to color plaster for roads as well. Might be worth a try

Thanks for the tip Robert! Where can the masonry dyes be purchased?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

QUOTE: Originally posted by Robert Knapp

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

1/ Add a little Woodland Scenics earth base color to the plaster. I wish i'd have done it that way. This should help prevent white spots in your scenes if the hardshell is dinged later on.

Grande man,
I have tried the WS colors and the liquid Sacrete coloring in the past. They just don't darken the plaster enough for my needs. I feel that adding too much of the liquids is not only a waste but can affect the properties of the cured plaster. For this reason I have switched to using powdered masonry dyes. I used to use this for colored concrete and mortor, when doing masonry work years ago. They work fantastic for coloring castings and base coats of scenery plaster. This product is formulated for masonry and has no affect on the mixing, workability, drying or curing of the plaster. It comes in various colors and when added to the dry plaster what you see is the final dried color. Many of the rock castings done this way have only needed light washes and dry brushing. Chips and nicks don't show at all. Use it to color plaster for roads as well. Might be worth a try

Thanks for the tip Robert! Where can the masonry dyes be purchased?

Any home improvement center.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

QUOTE: Originally posted by Robert Knapp

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

1/ Add a little Woodland Scenics earth base color to the plaster. I wish i'd have done it that way. This should help prevent white spots in your scenes if the hardshell is dinged later on.

Grande man,
I have tried the WS colors and the liquid Sacrete coloring in the past. They just don't darken the plaster enough for my needs. I feel that adding too much of the liquids is not only a waste but can affect the properties of the cured plaster. For this reason I have switched to using powdered masonry dyes. I used to use this for colored concrete and mortor, when doing masonry work years ago. They work fantastic for coloring castings and base coats of scenery plaster. This product is formulated for masonry and has no affect on the mixing, workability, drying or curing of the plaster. It comes in various colors and when added to the dry plaster what you see is the final dried color. Many of the rock castings done this way have only needed light washes and dry brushing. Chips and nicks don't show at all. Use it to color plaster for roads as well. Might be worth a try

Thanks for the tip Robert! Where can the masonry dyes be purchased?

Any home improvement center.

Chip,
The HD near me only carry the Sacrete liquid coloring. These don't work as well as the powdered dyes found at a masonry builders supply. You can also contact any mason contractor or concrete supplier, they should be able to tell you where to buy the product. By living south of Boston, I am surrounded by quarries and sand and gravel pits, this affords to many masonry dealers. I'm not sure if such suppliers are readily available to you. If your home center does stock it great.
The dyes were available to me in California where I first use them. Hope you can find a source they do work fantastic.
Bob K.

[selector]

Chip, you know my history in MR. If I knew I was going to plant a whole bunch of trees, and had pretty much decided against foam, I don't know anything else that would do as good a job at ancoring them. I used two rolls of plaster cloth here and there to cover gaps and to smooth grades between layers of foam when I became too impatient to continue to plane it down. Two rolls won't break your bank, and your layout is much smaller.

So, bang for bang, buck for buck, foam is the best and easiest for placing and retaining quantities of trees. Take a thin phillips screwdriver or thin metal punch/pointed skewer, press into the foam to a depth that seems reasonable, and then press in tree trunk. One tree installed. No hot glue for me, no driling into thin air below a shell, no matter how thick (thanks a lot), no dust, no mixing or cleanup.

My trees all look great, and only lie askew where I have repeatedly pushed against them reaching beyond or over them to get at something else. Punch a new hole beside the old one, press in three trunk, and Bob's your uncle. My telephone/telegraph poles are wedged into glued ballast, and they never stay longer than a couple of gentle whacks. Foam is much more forgiving.

-Crandell

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks Crandell,

The one area I can go to foam--the one that has the most trees, will be foam. The other section is just too wierd a shape to work well with foam. Only one of these sections will have trees.

[oleirish]

Chip
Check an med supply for cast matirel it is the same as plaster cloth,I coned the hosp out of some it works great.
[2c]
JIM