NCE Power Cab - Part 2: Using an extra throttle and anomaly (answered)

[gened1]

Yep Tim Smith is a good guy. He has set up my three loco's with decoders and programmed them for me so all I had to do is place them on the main and use the PowerCab to control them. I got the PowerCab from him last year at the same show. I was just downstairs controlliing three loco's on the main. It sure makes a difference when I can control them all with the setup I have. before I would have to try to place a third loco into service and would lose one loco in recall. It just was not a fast enough process for my brain to take in.I've got a Precision Craft M1b N Scale loco reserved through him but who knows when that will ever see the light of day. Again thanks for your postings here as it really helped push me in the right direction.

Gene

[tstage]

One thing I didn't realize is that I could use the powercab and the cab04 to control the same loco at the same time. I thought that once the loco was entered into the cab04 it would no longer be possible to control it with the powercab.

Gene

Yea.  You and another person could acquire and reaquire the same locomotive from one another, if you wanted to.  "It's mine....No!  It's mine!"...[and so on]

I'm glad you bumped into Tim Smith.  He's a good guy.  Gene, I'm glad you're happy with your new purchase.  Make sure you try out yard mode.  That's a cool feature.

Tom

[gened1]

Tom,

I met up with Tim from Empire Northern at the NYS Syracuse train fair this past weekend and got a cab04p, a utp and some wire to setup the utp on the back side of the layout(He will be sending me the utp and wire shortly). I had to call NCE though to talk me through the set up of the cab04p. There were a few extra steps that are not in your or the manuals description. I could not reset the cab to factory defalult  (like it says in the manual press 1 then 00 and enter) It turned out to be 3 but I also had to unplug the cab04 wire to the pcp and replug it back in a second time and then it worked. Anyway it was pretty straight forward once he (Larry I think it was) talked me through it and it really is great that I can control three loco's -two with the powercab and one with the cab04p. One thing I didn't realize is that I could use the powercab and the cab04 to control the same loco at the same time. I thought that once the loco was entered into the cab04 it would no longer be possible to control it with the powercab. Also he said that I don't have to stop the loco that the cab04 is controlling to move the cab04 from the front plug to the back plug. Neat!

I was hesitant on getting the extra throttle for my small layout 6'X12', but when I have to go to the back of the layout now I can control any of the loco's.It really is worth it.

Gene

[CraigN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CraigN

Tom,
Not according to Larry at NCE.

I e-mailed him and this was his response:

Craig,

The additional Pro Cab as the second cab, you will only have another 2 recalls.

Larry Larsen
NCE Customer Support

I also asked if the powercab's recall of 2 trains can be changed to 6 when using it as a procab on their bigger system.

Larry said " The Power Cab has only 2 recall slots. It cannot be changed"



Craig

I went up to Empire Northern Models this past weekend to buy some decoders and found out something interesting. I told Tim how I was dissapointed with the recall stack issue of the powercab in procab mode. He then took his powercab that he had set up as a procab and he stacked 6 engines into the recall.

So it looks like I passed along some wrong information, I appologize to everyone for that.

Craig

[tstage]

Simon,

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm still 3 planks short (no comments please) but I just got a call in from my LHS that the 1 x 8 flooring stock I ordered is finally in. [:D] (Took nearly 6 weeks or so from Walthers.) Anyway, I'll be able to stain (i.e. paint and wipe) the flooring pieces and install them soon so that I can finish up that part of the project.

Tom

[simon1966]

Digitrax does send the commands immidiately and you can see it with the Loconet monitor tools in the JMRI suite. Randy, you made the comment "NCE isn't the only one that fails to send all function states on a periodic basis." as our DCC guru, which other systems do not?

Tom, I just have to say, I love that depot in your signature. I remeber when you were going thru the flooring installation. Anyway, nothing to do with the thread, I just wanted to mention again how much I like it.

[tstage]

Steve,

Okay, I'm understanding your point now. Probably better to say it's an issue between QSI and certain DCC command stations. I'm curious now. Which DCC systems actually send function states on a periodic basis?

Tom

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Steve,

Just to compare notes, here's what is written verbatim from the

Quantum NMRA DCC Reference Manual
for
QSI Quantum HO Equipped Locomotives

Version 3.0
16 February 2005

Tom,

Please re-read my last post. Right up front, I said:

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stevert
I don't doubt the accuracy of the explanation.

And if you re-read my post further, you'll see that I also said:

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stevert
After all, how can it possibly be BLI's problem that their loco isn't responding to a command that the command station never sent? Or that the loco responds to a command later, only because the command station sent it out later? None of that is BLI's fault.

I don't know how else I can say it. Calling something a "BLI problem", and then going on to describe the command station deficiency that causes it to happen, is contradictory.

Steve

[Tom Bryant_MR]

My NCE Pro does the same thing. Regardless of the loco/decoder it sometimes requires two pushes of the button to get the light to come on.

[rrinker]

Another great big thank you to ambiguity in the NMRA standards. NCE isn't the only one that fails to send all function states on a periodic basis. Digitrax does, and they're the ones who always get blasted as somehow not compatible with the standards.
That's why there's no one best DCC system, they ALL have odd quirks.

--Randy

[tstage]

Steve,

Just to compare notes, here's what is written verbatim from the

Quantum NMRA DCC Reference Manual
for
QSI Quantum HO Equipped Locomotives

Version 3.0
16 February 2005

Section entitled, Appendix IV - Troubleshooting - Operations Mode (p. 151)

---

Left Column
My headlight does not come on when I start my engine out but mysteriously comes on whenever I blow the horn or turn on the bell. Also, if I try to turn on the headlight, it requires two pressings for the F0 of FL key.

Right Column
Pressing the horn or toggling the bell will cause your command station to send out a Function Group One command, which contains the lighting information. Not all command stations automatically send this information unless FL, F1, F2, F3 or F4 is pressed. Regarding turning on the lighting with the F0 key, the state for the light may already be on at the base station but not sent. When you press the F0 key, it toggles the lights to be off and sends that command. It takes a second press of the F0 key to send another command to turn on the light.

---

Left Column
My brakes, bell, air release, or other sounds comes on sometimes for no apparent reason while operating my locomotive.

Right Column
See above. Some functions may already be turned on but not sent. When you request any function, the entire function group that contains that function will be sent and this may trigger other features already enabled within that group. Hence, you might request the light be turned on and hear squealing brakes or the bell turn on or off. If your base station display shows the toggled condition for each of the function keys, you can determine which feature will turn [on]* or off when a Function Group One or a Function Group Two is sent.

---

*[Typo from manual. Author inserted assumed word.]

In comparing the two, it appears that BLI edited the updated version slightly from Mark's earlier version. But, it's still essentially the same thing word-for-word. I could see, however, where you might argue that BLI implies that the issues mentioned are individual to each DCC system with their phrase in the first response, "Not all command stations..." However, this is conditional from the subsequent explanation "unless..."

At any event, Mark's statement IS directly quoted from the Troubleshooting section of the BLI manual.

Tom

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Steve,

I double-checked the most recent Quantum DCC Reference Manual (v. 3.0), and what Mark wrote can be found on p. 151, under Appendix IV. The manual is dated "16 February 2005".

Tom

I don't doubt the accuracy of the explanation.

However, Mark L. said it was "a very well known BLI problem".

He also said, or apparently quoted the BLI manual, to the effect that some command stations queue at least some commands instead of sending them immediately.

And, in reading between the lines of the (quoted from BLI?) explanation, it seems that unless you request certain other functions, that original command may never be sent out. Or if it is sent, to use their example (F0 on/off), it's immediately negated by the next command.

Seems pretty clear to me that the command station not sending out commands in a timely manner makes it, well, a command station problem.

After all, how can it possibly be BLI's problem that their loco isn't responding to a command that the command station never sent? Or that the loco responds to a command later, only because the command station sent it out later? None of that is BLI's fault.

Therefore, my original comment that the two statements are contradictory still stands.

Steve

[tstage]

Steve,

I double-checked the most recent Quantum DCC Reference Manual (v. 3.0), and what Mark wrote can be found on p. 151, under Appendix IV. The manual is dated "16 February 2005".

Tom

[knewsom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stevert

I don't have any first-hand experience with this loco/DCC system combination, but Mark L. seems to be contradicting himself. First, he says:

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

QUOTE:
Long answer: This is a very well know BLI problem.

But then he goes on to say:

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

QUOTE:
Not all command stations automatically send this information unless
a command is requested for that function group. Regarding turning on the
lighting with the F0 key, the toggle for the light may already be on at the base
station but not sent. When you press the F0 key, it toggles the lights to be
off and sends that command. It takes a second press of the F0 key to send
another command to turn on the light.

...and...

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

QUOTE:
Answer: See above. Some functions may already be turned on but not sent.

So first he says it's a BLI problem, but then he says it's because the command station isn't sending the command until an additional command is requested!

Well, if the command station isn't sending every command when it's requested, then IMHO it's certainly not the loco's problem.

Steve

That is actually what is written in the BLI manual (at least the earlier manuals). Mark L. did not write it, just forwarded it on from BLI.

[Stevert]

I don't have any first-hand experience with this loco/DCC system combination, but Mark L. seems to be contradicting himself. First, he says:

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

QUOTE:
Long answer: This is a very well know BLI problem.

But then he goes on to say:

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

QUOTE:
Not all command stations automatically send this information unless
a command is requested for that function group. Regarding turning on the
lighting with the F0 key, the toggle for the light may already be on at the base
station but not sent. When you press the F0 key, it toggles the lights to be
off and sends that command. It takes a second press of the F0 key to send
another command to turn on the light.

...and...

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

QUOTE:
Answer: See above. Some functions may already be turned on but not sent.

So first he says it's a BLI problem, but then he says it's because the command station isn't sending the command until an additional command is requested!

Well, if the command station isn't sending every command when it's requested, then IMHO it's certainly not the loco's problem.

Steve

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

Not sure what the deal is there, it doesn't happen on the M1a. If it only happens from the Cab04p and never from the PowerCab I don't think it's a QSI anomaly.

--Randy

Randy,

Here's the complete response from Mark over at the Yahoo NCE-DCC forum:

QUOTE:
Short answer: It's not your Cab04P that is causing the problem.

Long answer: This is a very well know BLI problem. It is discussed in Appendix
III Trouble Shooting of the early BLI manuals. (may be in the newer manuals also
- don't know -don't have one.) Here are 2 sections right out of the manual.

Problem: My headlight does not come on when I start my engine out but
mysteriously comes on whenever I blow the horn or turn on the bell. also, if I
try to turn on the headlight, it requires two pressings for the F0 or FL key.
Answer: Pressing the horn button of toggling the bell will cause your command
station to send out a Function Group One command, which contains the lighting
information. Not all command stations automatically send this information unless
a command is requested for that function group. Regarding turning on the
lighting with the F0 key, the toggle for the light may already be on at the base
station but not sent. When you press the F0 key, it toggles the lights to be
off and sends that command. It takes a second press of the F0 key to send
another command to turn on the light.

Problem: My breaks, bell, air release, or other sounds come on sometimes for no
apparent reason while operating my locomotive.
Answer: See above. Some functions may already be turned on but not sent. When
you request any function, the entire function group that contains that function
will be sent and this may trigger other features already enabled within that
group. Hence, you might request the light to be turned on and hear squealing
brakes of the bell turn on or off. If your base station display shows the
toggled condition for each of the function keys, you can determine which feature
will turn on or off when a Function Group One or a Function Group Two is sent.

Sooooo.... very frustrating! I've found that if I use one cab and then switch to
another cab WITHOUT resetting the entire system these problems seem to occur
randomly. Also, if there is a short somewhere on the layout, and gets cleared,
the BLI exhibits the same symptoms as you have seen until I do another complete
system reset. Arrrrrg!

What fun.
Mark L. Sunny Southern Nevada

[rrinker]

Not sure what the deal is there, it doesn't happen on the M1a. If it only happens from the Cab04p and never from the PowerCab I don't think it's a QSI anomaly.

--Randy

[tstage]

UPDATE:

I found out from someone a few days ago that the above "anomaly" has nothing to do with the CAB-04p throttle but with the BLI QSI decoder. I haven't run across it in the literature yet but this particular quirk is supposed to be mentioned in the Troubleshooting section of the manual. I plan on updating to the new QSI update chip that is due out. Perhaps this will be/has been addressed with the update.

Tom

[tstage]

Hi Gang!

I've run across an interesting anomaly of late when using my new NCE CAB-04p throttle with my BLI "Light" Mike. It's somewhat sporadic but happens most often within the first few minutes after my Power Cab has been turned on.


(Picture supplied again for clarity)

At idle, the Mike sits there chuffing away, as it's supposed to. The CAB-04p throttle only has a button for the horn so you have to use F0 to turn on the headlight. A couple of times now, when pressing F0, the coupler noise sounds but no headlight. A second press of F0 will then turn on the headlight.

Another time, the Mike was cruising around the layout. I distinctly pressed F7 for the break squeal and the sound muted or cut out. (Like pressing F8.) This has also happened a couple of times now. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to really see a pattern so far, other than it happening within the first few minutes after I turn on the Power Cab. I also haven't seen this particular problem happen when using my Power Cab as the throttle.

Has anyone else run into these anomalies before using a NCE throttle?

Thanks!

Tom

[CraigN]

Yes, it is a bit of a shortcoming, but I look at it like this.

The powercab was designed as a starter system, not something to replace their powerhouse pro system.

It was designed with small layouts in mind- thus the 1.7 amp limit.

Most small layout designs don't support running 3 continuous trains. That's maybe why the racall stack design was limited to 2 instead of 3?

Being a handheld system, you don't have to buy a handheld throttle just to follow and control your train. That in itself is a nice selling point for a starter system.

All in all, I love mine. I can and will incorporate it into the powerhouse pro system when I buy it. Now I just need to learn more so I can use more of the functions the powercab has.

Craig

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CraigN

Tom,
Not according to Larry at NCE.

I e-mailed him and this was his response:

Craig,

The additional Pro Cab as the second cab, you will only have another 2 recalls.

Larry Larsen
NCE Customer Support

I also asked if the powercab's recall of 2 trains can be changed to 6 when using it as a procab on their bigger system.

Larry said " The Power Cab has only 2 recall slots. It cannot be changed"



Craig

Craig,

Thanks for clearing that up. [:)] I'll have to admit that that bit of new news (echo, echo) is somewhat disappointing to hear. Even so, the inability to recall more than 2 trains on the Power Cab is only a minor shortcoming to me. No DCC system is perfect, and this is just another good example of why that's so.

Tom

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

NCE have had an interesting dilema in attempting to go after the entry level starter system market. How do they gain market share with a system designed to compete with the Digitrax Zephyr without sacrificing the sales volume of the presumably higher profit margin Pro systems? Some of the limitations that have been discussed were clearly imposed to ensure that there is a reason to still purchase the higher end systems. This is a fine balance, and a problem that I think that they have faced quite well. The PowerCab is sufficiently different from the Zephyr in design (walk around V console) that some of the limitations, Volt output, # trains controlled will likely not be deal breakers. Yet the ProCab clearly offers advantages over its new baby brother giving good reason to spend the extra dollars in future. The last thing they needed to do was to make the Powercab so good as to capture the bulk of the Procab business. Good luck to them, I hope they do well with it, and in turn encourage Digitrax, my supplier to keep on improving and developing as well.

Simon,

Those are some VERY astute conclusions you have developed and, I believe, are right on the mark. [tup] Good, healthy competition and product development will always be good for the future of any hobby. It'll be interesting to see where things go from here...

Tom

[simon1966]

NCE have had an interesting dilema in attempting to go after the entry level starter system market. How do they gain market share with a system designed to compete with the Digitrax Zephyr without sacrificing the sales volume of the presumably higher profit margin Pro systems? Some of the limitations that have been discussed were clearly imposed to ensure that there is a reason to still purchase the higher end systems. This is a fine balance, and a problem that I think that they have faced quite well. The PowerCab is sufficiently different from the Zephyr in design (walk around V console) that some of the limitations, Volt output, # trains controlled will likely not be deal breakers. Yet the ProCab clearly offers advantages over its new baby brother giving good reason to spend the extra dollars in future. The last thing they needed to do was to make the Powercab so good as to capture the bulk of the Procab business. Good luck to them, I hope they do well with it, and in turn encourage Digitrax, my supplier to keep on improving and developing as well.

[CraigN]

Tom,
Not according to Larry at NCE.

I e-mailed him and this was his response:

Craig,

The additional Pro Cab as the second cab, you will only have another 2 recalls.

Larry Larsen
NCE Customer Support

I also asked if the powercab's recall of 2 trains can be changed to 6 when using it as a procab on their bigger system.

Larry said " The Power Cab has only 2 recall slots. It cannot be changed"



Craig

[tstage]

Craig,

I thought that was true for the Power Cab but you could stack more (up to 6?) addresses using it as a Pro Cab.

Tom

[CraigN]

If you decide to use a pro cab as an extra throttle, you can only stack 2 trains into the recall feature.
I got this information from Larry at NCE.

[electrolove]

tstage:

Thanks again for doing a very interesting mini tutorial. I really think this is the way to use forums. [bow]

I want more tutorials like this, come on guys.

[tstage]

Ernie,

Yes. At least the way the PowerCab is set up to run when NOT using the 3A booster, you can only run one (1) additional throttle and it has to be set to address "3". WITH the booster, I believe you can use up to 3 additional throttles with the Power Cab.

Tom

[ereimer]

i'm curious ... why does a cab (throttle) have to have an address , and if it has to be set to 3 does that mean you can only have one add-on ?