Hand Spiking into Pine - bad experience.

[Anonymous]

So I was doing some handlaid turnout construction practicing tonight. Things were going well. My frog was looking sweet. My switch points were sharp and burr-free.

But then when I went to spike everything into place, things went downhill.

I was practicing on a piece of scrap 2 x 4. I quickly discovered that the density of the wood varies enough to make spikes impossible to drive into some spots. And if it's where I need spikes, I'm out of luck!

So I'm looking for alternatives, including homasote.

Has anyone used it for hand spiking? I like the idea of wood - seems like it will hold spikes forever, but the natural variation is just too great. I suppose an alternative may be to get some real high quality wood or something.

I may also consider soldering to PC ties instead of spiking. The cool thing about spiking is that I could ballast first - which gives perfect-looking ballasting.

Hmmmm.

[Virginian]

Homasote is perfect. Consistent texture and holds spikes well. There are also several other varieties of wood you may want to try that might do what you want. I would take a handful of spikes and head for Lowes or Home Depot and see what's what.

[Medina1128]

How about predrilling the ties and wood with a bit smaller than the diameter of the spikes? It would allow the spikes to be driven and still hold tight.

[Anonymous]

I'm now starting to ponder the hot glue method...

read some cool things about using pliobond after doing a google search.

Gluing would allow me to use cork roadbed instead of custom cutting pine or homasote. (yes, I've seen homabed, but the prices are a bit much for my super-cheap track construction I'm trying to pull off...)

[Anonymous]

Hmmm - possible false alarm.

Are 2x4's usually made from Pine? A quick Lowe's search tells me they're douglas fir.

Hmmm - just did a search on wood densities - pine and douglas fir are the same density.

So I still have a problem! I just hate the idea of happily spiking away, then running into dense wood right where I need some spikes. Arggghhhh!

[Anonymous]

I think I'm missing something. If you lay cork roadbed then glue wooden ties down, then spike your rail to the tie won't that work [?]

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

Hmmm - possible false alarm.

Are 2x4's usually made from Pine? A quick Lowe's search tells me they're douglas fir.

Hmmm - just did a search on wood densities - pine and douglas fir are the same density.

So I still have a problem! I just hate the idea of happily spiking away, then running into dense wood right where I need some spikes. Arggghhhh!

CARRfan,
Don't give up on handlaying, so far it seems you are experimenting with spiking into the totally wrong product. Wood densities itself isn't the solution. All construction lumber, whether, spruce, douglas fir or hemlock tend to have wild/ radical changes in the grain. If you want to spike into wood, instead of an alternative- homosote, you need to use clear pine Idaho sugar or white. the grain is the most consistant and only on a rare occation would you have to predrill as not to knock the rail out of wack. Clear pine "lath" 1/4" x 2" can usually be found at a quality lumber lard in with the moldings. This is a fairly expensive way to go however, because the cost will add up quickly. you could almost buy Homabed at this point.
An alternative, as we do in my club, Is to rip "D" select or "C" or better 1x6 or 1x8 into roadbed and turnout base. We do have an extensive shop at our disposal, so doing this may not be for you. The pine roadbed has worked great for our purposes. The club's tracks are either pine(roadbed) on 3/4" quality plywood or pine roadbed on pine spline. With this we have a mix of handlaid and Walther's/ Shinahara 83 flex. Has worked satisfactorily so far. Have you also given any thought to Joe Fugate's method of laminated masonite? There are many other options hope others can also put their 2cents in, to help you out.
Bob K.

[Paul3]

As I'm in the same club with Bob K. (Hi, Bob!), I agree 100% with what he's saying. In fact, I liked what my club's been doing so much that I did it on my home 25' x 50' layout (Bob helped me cut some).

I bought medium grade pine 1"x6"x10' from a quality lumber yard (not Lowe's or Home Depot). Cost me about $10 for one board. The trick in this is that you have to take your time and pick, pick, pick your way through the lumber pile to get just the right board that's straight and relatively knot free. It's then ripped it into thirds with a table saw, making three 1x2" pieces. Then each piece is placed on edge, and ripped it in half. Next was to cut the shoulders and you're done.

Now, to curve the pine roadbed you do have to slot cut it along the inside of the curve to get to to bend, but it's not that hard. Just put a saber saw upside down in a bench vise and use that to slot it.

You can buy totally clear pine, but expect to pay twice as much. I was able to get 60' of roadbed for just $10...

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Here are two of the finest roadbed and highest quality roadbed products available to serious MR on the market today. If you are looking for professional results, check out these to excellent suppliers:

http://www.homabed.com/site/890800/page/45030

-and-

http://www.troutcreekeng.com/bkho.html

Homabed is a homasote beveled or unbeveled roadbed product milled and ready to use. Tru-Scale Roadbed is a basswood product also ready to use. Both are fine products and look wonderful.

[cacole]

You should try using a Dremel with a drill bit slightly smaller in diameter than a spike to drill pilot holes for the spikes.

Most of the model crossites I have seen are redwood, which is a softer wood than pine or fir, but tends to split if a pilot hole is not drilled.

It would probably also be a good idea to practice on whatever type of material you are using for your layout surface instead of a scrap piece of 2x4 so you'll get a better idea of how well the spikes are going to hold.

[Anonymous]

Robert and Paul,

Are you guys saying if I buy pine 1 x material, then I'm not going to have the same problems as with the 2 x 4?

Come to think of it, my first turnout I made a couple years ago was on 1 x material, and I didn't have these problems.

I have a table saw and a sabre saw, and would be happy to do the ripping, etc. myself. In fact, I would enjoy it.

I was not looking forward to the dusty mess of homasote.

OK, give me any more tips you've got while you're at it.

Do you guys ballast the ties before laying rail? When do you paint the rail?

Have you guys ever tried using hot glue, pliobond, etc. instead of spiking?

[Anonymous]

Home Depot carries clear pine mullions in 1 3/8" wide and 2" wide the profile when laid on a flat surface is ideal for ballasting . Plus it is soft enough to push a safety pin in to.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NOSPACEORECASHRR

I think I'm missing something. If you lay cork roadbed then glue wooden ties down, then spike your rail to the tie won't that work [?]

I haven't tried this, but I'm pretty sure there isn't enough meat just in the ties to hold the spikes in place very well. I wish it was good enough!

[howmus]

For handlaid track (and turnouts), I use good old Walthers Goo contact cement. A very fine bead of it put on the bottom of the rail and then place the rail carefully in place works well. The rail can (or should) be then heated with a soldering iron along the top. The glue will bond tightly and will stay in place perfectly for many years. I have rail and turnouts put down this way over 20 years ago and they are still perfectly in guage. You can then spike the rail as you please pre-drilling holes for the spikes.

[Anonymous]

Howmus - thanks for your tips!

So you end up with spiking plus glue in some cases, is that correct?

Do you prefer only glue, or only spikes?

And for you and everyone else - do you find pre-drilling necessary? I have been practicing without ties. Some practice with them would surely answer my own question for me.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

Howmus - thanks for your tips!

So you end up with spiking plus glue in some cases, is that correct?

Do you prefer only glue, or only spikes?

And for you and everyone else - do you find pre-drilling necessary? I have been practicing without ties. Some practice with them would surely answer my own question for me.

I certainly prefer the look of the spiked rail. However, most of the hand laid stuff on the layout is not spiked as I never got around to it. One thing about the Goo, make sure that you do not use too much as it can glob up and cause running problems. Where I have had that happen, a little work with a #11 exacto knife can remove the leftovers. Back 20+ years ago, I read several articles on making structures and laying track using Goo. I have a Trestle bridge that is over 20 years old and still holding well also that is only held together with Goo. If the Goo has been heated, the tensile strength is something like 400Lbs. per square inch. Excercize some safty caution when working with Goo as it is a Rubber Cement that uses aecetone as a solvent which is pretty nasty stuff. I always used "profile" ties stained to get the look I wanted and laid them first over coark roadbed. Then I Gooed down the rail. You can buy standard scale ties for bridges I I still hand lay all my bridges, profile ties for the rest and you can get turnout packages that have several different lengths of ties for the turnouts. Prctice it a bit and see if it works for you. Have fun!

[West Coast S]

Have you looked into clear pine? I use 1/4 Lunan Plywood as a base for my code 83 rail turnouts, matter of fact I don't even use ties on trackage that is not readily visible, I do however, put a dab of epoxy on my rail base every 5' or so before spiking in place and also a dab of epoxy for every third spike in turnouts, I do depend on PC ties to maintain overall guage in all cases the epoxy is added insurance. Give the Luan Plywood method a try, you might find it the solution you seek.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Keep the ideas coming.

Something that occured to me, is that if you use a bead of glue along the entire length of rail, the rail is actually bonded to every tie, unlike spiking or soldering, in which case you only bond to a certain percentage of ties.

How long of working time do you get with Goo? Or with Pliobond? Does it not really bond until you heat it up?

At the lumber yard renting a wheelbarrow today for some chores around the house - will check out the pine when I return it (work before play, you know...) in case I continue down the spiking path.

[Anonymous]

[
]I think I'm missing something. If you lay cork roadbed then glue wooden ties down, then spike your rail to the tie won't that work [?]


I haven't tried this, but I'm pretty sure there isn't enough meat just in the ties to hold the spikes in place very well. I wish it was good enough!

When we used it on the last layout the rails stayed in place for its 10yr life with no problems. Maybe I was just lucky.

[mlehman]

I use commercial track, but I have a custom crossing I plan to handlay when I get around to it. So I can't speak of any real experience in spiking track when handlaying yet.

I am on the HOn3 list and there are quite a few experienced handlayers there. And everyone has their own opinion to a certain extent. However, it's clear in that crowd that using lauan, like West Coast S suggested, is one of the more popular methods these days. It usually is a little less than 1/4" in thickness and is easy to cut to shape. You can bevel it, but if you plan it right, your ballast will cover things if you just leave it square on the edges.

A similar product that lots of people use is what's called door skin. It is lauan plywood around 1/8'" thickness, so you'll have to adjust spike length more with it to avoid overpenetration, unless you're using a soft subroadbed underneath it like homasote. A lot of people have misgivings about relying exclusively on spking into homasote because of the tendency of spikes to loosen in it. But if you put down doorskin plywood over it and lay track on top, then your spikes have better holding power. And there's really no need to bevel door skin at all, since it's so thin anyway.

Like I said, it's something I'll try when I get a chance, but these both sound like good materials that give you consistent spiking effectiveness.
Regards,
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL

[West Coast S]

I don't bevel my edges, I will knock the square edge off however, I'm not modeling mainline trackage so track close to the ground is the effect i', after, weeds and all!! I like the Lunan for the flexibility of holding a sag to simulate undalating trackage, care must be used handlaying this not often seen feature. Lunan is rather new to me, so far i'm impressed with the spike holding ability and no guage problems to date.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Douglas fir isn't as varied as pine, they are both soft woods, but pine is a very inferior quality of wood. MDF is the best bet I think, it's hard, but doesn't warp (unless it's wet) and machines and works really nice.

Greg

[Paul3]

CARRfan wrote:

QUOTE: Are you guys saying if I buy pine 1 x material, then I'm not going to have the same problems as with the 2 x 4?

That's correct. 1x stock is a heckuva lot more uniform in density than any 2x stock. There are going to be exceptions, especially if you get something other than clear pine. Knots are, of course, all but impossible to spike into. Knots also don't like being bent around curves. Two good reasons to avoid all knots if possible (but I didn't want to pay $20 for a 10 foot 1x6").

As far as the job itselt, it's rather tedious. But the results are worth it. Pine, IMHO, is the best roadbed material as it's great at holding spikes, is very easy to work with, won't dull your tools, and it's cheap to boot.

QUOTE: OK, give me any more tips you've got while you're at it.

Do you guys ballast the ties before laying rail? When do you paint the rail?

Have you guys ever tried using hot glue, pliobond, etc. instead of spiking

The best way to handlay track, IMHO, is to first secure the RoW with the pine roadbed (45 degree shoulders is what I use). Next I use a tie jig (a piece of wood with ties glued to it that provides the right spacing for loose ties placed between them) and lay out a could feet of ties. After getting the ties on the jig, I then use narrow tape (1/4") and run the tape down the middle of the ties in the jig. When I lift on the tape, I get a flexible tie strip.

Now, I lay down a bead of Elmer's wood glue on the roadbed, and then spread it around with my finger or with a piece of cardboard or wood. I make sure the glue coats from shoulder to shoulder, but not too thickly. I don't want the glue to be all over the place.

Then it's time to lay down the tie strip from the jig. Lay it down, tape side up, on the glued roadbed. Place heavy weights on the ties (after making sure everything is where it's supposed to be), and wait for the glue to dry.

After it's dry, remove the weights and pull (gently) on the tape. The tape should come off, leaving all the ties behind.

Now, it's time to sand them. Sand them with light duty paper with a smooth and flat block. Make sure not to round off the tie ends, nor to create hills and valleys in the ties with uneven pressure.

Blow off the sawdust, and stain the ties. Some guys like using wood stain, but I actually prefer brown shoe polish with a sponge applicator tip. Shoe polish does a great job of giving it that creosote look...kind of greasy, but dark brown. Obviously, if you're modeling a non-mainline, you'll want to lighten up a few ties if not all of them so's to represent less than perfect maintenance. Let the polish dry.

At this point, I sand them again, lightly (don't remove the polish), to make sure that the polish hasn't caused any swelling that will effect the rail.

Now I add the ballast. I like using Woodland Scenic's mixed ballast...it's got three or more different colors in it that, IMHO, does a good job in imitating the cut granite ballast found around here in New England. I spread it around, making sure it covers shoulder to shoulder. Wiping with the ties vs. against the ties is a great way to remove excess ballast.

Next, wet the ballast with an ultra fine mist sprayer. We're talking about a perfume bottle or something simular. A spray bottle with throw the ballast all over the place, and we don't want that.

The step after this is to apply the glue. I use 50% water, 50% Elmer's white glue with a drop of detergent in it to break the water tension. Apply it gently, and make sure it totally covers all the ballast. It'll soak in. Let it dry.

Now, scrape off any excess ballast from the tops of the ties with a steel rule or something like that. At this point, the rail is ready to be put down.

Lay the track in the usual method. I like putting down both rails at one time to make sure I've got it centered on the ties. I also use the 3-point gauges made by several companies. On straight aways, I spike every 4 or 5 ties. On curves, more frequently. On tight curves, every other tie.

For spikes, I like Micro Engineering medium or small spikes. Micro spikes are cool looking, but they don't hold up very well.

I would never glue rail to ties except on bridges. If you ever have to change the track, how would you do it with destroying it? No thanks.

mlehman wrote:

QUOTE: However, it's clear in that crowd that using lauan, like West Coast S suggested, is one of the more popular methods these days.

Just watch out for Luan quality. In my own experience, some Luan is soft like one. Other Luan (that looks just like the other kind) is as hard as a rock, which makes it almost impossible to spike. Try before you buy. If nothing else, try scratching the luan at the store with your finger nail. If you can scratch it pretty good, it's soft enough to spike. If it's like trying to scratch concrete, go elsewhere...

QUOTE: Douglas fir isn't as varied as pine, they are both soft woods, but pine is a very inferior quality of wood. MDF is the best bet I think, it's hard, but doesn't warp (unless it's wet) and machines and works really nice.

If we're talking about something to spike in, forget MDF. MDF is great for backdrops, fascias and other uses that Masonite has been used for in the past. But forget spiking it.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
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[tomikawaTT]

As you have discovered, all pine is not created equal.

White pine, native to the northeast, is soft, easy to work with and accepts spikes the way my grandson accepts ice cream.

Southern yellow pine and Ponderosa pine, by comparison, are closely related to granite. So is the Douglas fir used for ordinary plywood and a lot of structural lumber.

I've been experimenting to see which locally available materials will end up under my hand-laid specialwork. So far, not all the evidence has been presented, so the jury has yet to begin deliberations.

[Anonymous]

Paul 3, thanks for all of you input!

I'm realizing there are many variations to handlaying, and I'm learning more about all the methods and weighing the pluses and minuses. There are people who swear by one method, some say, "never ballast first", others say, "always ballast first", etc.

It's pretty neat how there are so many variations that I'll possibly end up with my own variation. Before long, I may post a thread showing all the variations I could think of, then my chosen path (for now, anyway!).

I should add, one thing that makes me consider soldering or gluing rail is the fact that it takes a lot of force to drive a spike. So there you are, pushing with all your might to get that spike in. I don't like that - because the situation is so fragile.

It's as if someone tied a 50 lb weight to your grandmother's fine crystal wine glass, and asked you to pick the glass up and carry it accross the room. Lots of force for a very fragile situation.

One alternative would be to pre-drill holes for every spike, but this could become extremely tedious.

At the moment, my pendulum is swinging towards gluing.

I'm currently thinking:

1) lay cork roadbed

2) place ties

3) sand & stain ties (I sure like your shoe polish idea - will likely try that).

4) lay NON-WEATHERED track with hot glue, etc.

5) Solder all feeders, etc.

6) Make sure everything is running flawlessly.

7) Airbru***rack from a low angle to mostly catch the rails

8) Wipe off rail head with paint thinner

9) Ballast track (could be done after nearby scenery is complete


Again, I've been all over the map on this, and so far have tried spiking with weathered and non-weathered rail.

I'm currently pretty anti-pre-weathered rail, because you can't easily (or at least I couldn't) get a shiny rail head.

I initally really wanted to use it because then I could ballast first and not worry about painting the rail. Using non-weathered rail totally changes the order of things!

I like spiking except for the muscle-ing required I mentioned above. I won't be a happy camper when I'm applying, say, 5 lbs of force then my pliers slip and I smash or split a tie. I've done this a bit in my practicing, so I know it could happen later.

Hmmmmmm.....

Paul, you mentioned glued down rail being hard to change. Ahhh, the beauty of cork roadbed - rip it up and try again - very little money lost. I was pricing cork - it's like $1 for 3 feet. Nice!

I also can't help thinking cork will provide for quieter running than pine on top of plywood.

Again, my natural tendency is towards spiking - just checking the water in the other pool for a while....

(couldn't find any pliobond today - may order some from McMaster-Carr).

[Paul3]

CARRfan, I have no idea why anyone would want to ballast after the rail is laid. Sure, you have to with flex track, but why do that with handlaid? To me, it makes no sense. By ballasting first, you avoid splitting ties with the spikes, and you get to play with the ballast all you want without worrying about it stick to the rails or getting jammed in switch points, frogs, or gaurdrails. What possibly benefit can there be to not ballasting before laying rail?

The only ones that I know of that do are the track guys in my club. You know why? Because they think that ballast is scenery, and they don't do scenery. Sigh. Personally, I think they're just being lazy, but that's IMHO.

Edit: If you're using that much force to spike rail, you're using the wrong stuff. What ever wood you use, you should be able to push in a thumbtack. If you can't without killing your fingers, get softer wood.

BTW, personally, I wouldn't handlay on cork. Somehow, I don't think I'd like how the spikes would hold, nor how the ties would stay attached (being a different material) to the cork.

And as far as noise, it's not as bad as you think. Sure, it's more than foam or cork, but it's not like it is when flex track is laid directly on plywood. Now that's loud! [:)]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[bn7026]

Balsa wood is my choice, holds spikes very well, is easy to spike and is unaffected by water. Going to use it again on my next layout - starting shortly....

Tim

[Anonymous]

Paul, the benefit of ballasting after trackwork is done is that you could paint the sides of the rails with an airbrush.

I hear you about my roadbed being too tough. I'll keep searching for some softer stuff while I ponder the gluing approach.

As for the cork, the idea is I'd use that if I didn't spike, but glued instead. Gluing initially sounded crazy to me, but I've found the yahoo hand laid track forum, and some guys are swearing by it.

Still considering all the options...

[jeffers_mz]

I used pine to build a trestle, and ran into a few spots where it was difficult to place the spikes to hold down the rails. Within the first sixteenth inch or so, it was pretty obvious whether the spike wanted to go in or not. When I got to a difficult one, I found that gripping the spike only a 16th or an 8th inch above the tie surface allowed me to exert more pressure without bending the spike. If a spike did start to bend, I removed it, and went looking for a spike with a sharper point. They're all in and holding well now.

In my case, the limit of spike resistance was very close to my perception of structure wrecking force necessary to overcome it, but working slowly got them all in without major problems.

[Paul3]

CARRfan,
If one paints the rail after one has laid it with an airbrush, how does one keep from making the ties the same color as the rail? They aren't the same color that I've seen...

Wouldn't it make more sense to paint the rail with an airbrush off the layout? One could lay down several sections of rail on a piece of cardboard and spray the whole lot in one pass.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************