Ya'll warned me... I didn't listen... what now?

[Anonymous]

Here's the scoop.... On December 29th, I bought 6 brand new Atlas switches on a Buy It Now auction. On talking to the seller, he said he also had 19 'used' #4 switches, but they were in excellent condition, and if I wanted them, he'd let them go for $4.99 each. I didn't want to buy them sight unseen, so he sent me a couple pictures. I liked what I saw, so I decided to buy them all. $142.75, he waived shipping and gave me insurance for free. I paid for them all that night, using PayPal. He didn't actually ship them out until January 17th. He had a great feedback record, with a score of around 1900, 99.97% positive, but I had noticed several neutral's due to 'slow shipping' where he waited nearly a month to ship. Very few negatives, and I don't think there were any in the last year.

I just got the package today. All the brand new switches were fine, in excellent shape, never opened. He was supposed to send 9 #4 Left, and 10 #4 Right. Here's what he actually sent....

2 #6 Left, (rails coming loose from ties)
8 #4 Left, (2 of which are completely unusable, missing points and bent rails)
6 #4 Right, (2 of which were in the same condition as the bad #4 Lefts)
4 Left Snap Switches
3 Right Snap Switches.

Now that totals 23 switches, or 4 more than he said he was going to send, but 4 are completely unusable, and 7 are not even what I thought I was buying.

I want to leave him negative feedback for the slow shipping, and misrepresentation of product but here's where I run into problems.... the used switches were bought through an email agreement... not on Ebay. So other than ths slow shipping, the brand new ones were sent exactly as represented on Ebay, but I can't leave feedback regarding the used ones, because they weren't an Ebay Auction.

I only have a score of 8, 100% positive, and I've checked his other buyers feedback, and anytime they leave him a neutral or negative, he flames them right back, ruining their positive scores. I'm going to email him and ask him what the deal is with the used switches, but as far as the feedback goes... should I just not leave him any, rather than posting a neutral or negative and risk getting flamed myself?

[loathar]

Give him a BIG ding on his feedback. What brand are they? (I'm assuming Atlas)
If they are, you paid full price for the switches at a discount price.( $8 each is average)
And you didn't have to pay shipping. All in all, I can't say you got ripped off, It's just not what you were bidding on. (I could have made all those fit on my new layout and would have thought I got a deal)[2c]

[Tracklayer]

I've found myself in the same situation your in jshrade... Never buy anything from an ebay seller on the side like that because if he stiffs you, you really can't leave negative feedback. If I were you, I wouldn't leave any feedback at all. Just make note not to ever do business with the guy again.

Tracklayer

[Todd McWilliam]

Don't leave him bad feedback, just remember his user id. I have been screwed on ebay and I don't want my feedback to get ruined, so I don't retaliate.

[rolleiman]

You'll have to decide how important that 100% is.. Some people, not saying that's the case here, don't know the difference between atlas turnouts and snap switches. Try writing him and asking where is what you paid for? See what he says.. At the worse though, all you really have on the guy is slow shipping since what you Bid on, Was delivered (wasn't it?). Neutral on the slow shipping is as far as I'd go with it, if that..

[2c]

Jeff

[loathar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Todd McWilliam

Don't leave him bad feedback, just remember his user id. I have been screwed on ebay and I don't want my feedback to get ruined, so I don't retaliate.

Isn't that what people like this guy are hoping for? I'm in NO WAY an E Bay expert. I personally don't even look at the feed back ratings. You can tell a lot about a deal by the way it's advertised. (shipping,pay policy) E Bay is HUGE crap shoot. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. (I still wouldn't count this one as a loss)[2c][2c][2c]

[Anonymous]

Well, I emailed him about it. If he wants to refund some of the money, I'm fine with that, but I have a gut feeling that won't happen. If not, I'll try to make do with what I did get. Just sucks I got 'burned' from someone who appeared to be a reputable seller. I have all of the original emails, including the pictures and the agreement to back me up. Here's a copy (names/ID's removed) of the email I sent him. Just have to wait and see what he says now....

Subject: Got the Switches Today

Hey (seller),

Just wanted to let you know, I got the switches in today. The brand new ones are great, but I have a few concerns about the used ones. As per our agreement, you were supposed to send 9 #4 Right hand switches, 10 #4 Left Hand switches. Instead, I got 6 #4 RH, 8 #4 LH, 2 of each (4 total) are completely unusable due to missing switch points, badly broken ties and/or bent rail separating from the ties. You also sent 4 Left Hand Snap switches, 3 Right Hand Snap switches, and 2 #6 Lefthand switches. The #6's rails are separating from the ties, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to use them or not. Now, I appreciate the fact that you sent 4 more switches than our agreement, but since 4 of the #4's are unusable anyway, I feel it's a moot point. My concern is simply that this is not what I paid for, and I'm not satisfied. I had no intention of using snap switches on my layout unless I'm in a pinch, and snap switches are typically regarded as worth far less than the Atlas Custom Line #4's. You also said that all of the used switches were in excellent condition. I know condition is relative to whoever's looking at them at the time, but I just don't feel these switches even come close to being described as 'excellent' condition. I just feel for $142.75, I should have gotten what I paid for.

I'm also quite disturbed at the fact that I sent payment on December 29th, the same day I won the Buy It Now auctions, and you have not left any feedback for me. I have reviewed your feedback and it appears you wait for the buyer to leave you feedback to determine whether you will leave them negative or neutral feedback in retaliation for a poor reply. I feel this is a completely unethical way of doing business and transactions on Ebay. At this point, I'm interested in hearing your perspective on the matter, and what, if anything, you'd like to do about this situation.

Thank you,

(me)

[Anonymous]

I'm not entirely sure I consider it a loss... just frustrated. My track plan is designed around #4 switches, and now, in order to use the snap switches (which I may do just on the branchline) I'll have to redesign that section of the layout to make it all fit. Just annoying is all. I didn't listen, ya'll warned me not to buy used track, especially switches, to begin with. I don't feel entirely bad about the deal. Just not what I was expecting.

[edkowal]

You can't leave negative feedback about a deal which didn't occur using e-bay. If you made the deal that you're bothered by completely outside of E-bay, solely as a result of a contact made through e-bay, that's your own doing. It has nothing to do with e-bay. Both you and the seller were avoiding e-bay's fees for such a sale, so it's just personal between you and him. e-bay is not involved.

-Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal

You can't leave negative feedback about a deal which didn't occur using e-bay. If you made the deal that you're bothered by completely outside of E-bay, solely as a result of a contact made through e-bay, that's your own doing. It has nothing to do with e-bay. Both you and the seller were avoiding e-bay's fees for such a sale, so it's just personal between you and him. e-bay is not involved.

-Ed

[#ditto]

You have to be sure to only give feedback on the items in the listing. Anything else is just as he said, between the two of you. This could be a clever ploy this person uses to get rid of his junk under the pretences of a ligidimate listing.

Let us all learn from this one. Thanks for posting your experience, it really does help the rest of us avoid such troubles.

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

[dinwitty]

sounds like he wanted to dump some bad switches giving you an oddball bonus,
One ebay sellar gave me a few extras. As far as switches go, I wouldnt be that gruffed about it, you got a bargain no matter what.

I can lay the rail on handlaid ties and make the switches work again.
Of course I can lay complex switchwork without the high cost of brand made product.
Just inform him what he sent and what you looked for in buying and find an agreement. If your actually OK with the buy, theres not a biggee prob.

[tomkat-13]

I have been selling (mostly) & buying on ebay since 1998.....I always give feedback on the day I receive the buyers payment, this 1st lets him know I have his money & 2nd that I'm not holding the feedback over his head. I also insist in my description that all questions and/or comments are welcome....if they do not ask I feel they must feel the photo's and the listing is clear enough.....one thing I do not take returns or give refunds...I have never lost any shipments ( well over 2,000) and my packaging is bullet-proof....oh yea...I have still a 100% positive feedback! So when you buy ask lots of questions, get extra scans or photos, also if you want some more safety insure your item!....I try to buy new in the box train items but have also bought groups of used items..if it is used I bid less then what it is claimed to be (if it is said to be excellent I take that as very good) that way you have some margin of protection. Its your money so buyer beware and if you have a bad deal try to work it out before you give that NEGATIVE.....and if they give you one back ware it proudly......oh I'm tomkat-13 on ebay.

[Anonymous]

I agree totally that since the sale didn't take place on ebay, there's no way I should leave feeback regarding a non-ebay sale. I haven't heard back from him yet, not sure if I will. He's got the money, I've got the switches (albeit not all are in the greatest of shape or even what I paid for). I reworked my track plan on RightTrack tonight using the Snap Switches on the branchline, and it didn't change things all that drastically. I've just heard so many people complain about snap switches in permanent layouts that I wanted to avoid the hassles with them. Live and learn I guess. Thanks for all the feedback. I wasn't sure what (if anything) I should do about it.

[ICRR1964]

This is something that happens quite a bit on ebay, never make a deal behind Ebay for the simple fact that it can go bad and you not get what you want as stated. The guy pulled you in like a big fish. Don't leave him any feedback at all, thats the one way of getting even with him. I have done this in the past to some sellers who do poor packing and don't give you the insurance and item shows up in mail broken to bits. 9 times out of 10 they know this will happen, but get mad because you won't leave them feedback. I always send them pictures of the damage items, and show them their poor packing in photo's, it gets dropped like a stone then. I end up fixing the item and re selling then stating it had been damaged in shipping from another seller, and get most if not all of my money back.

Ebay was built for the honest public consumer, but there is the 5% of them that have know business on ebay at all.

The P2K engeines that some sellers are selling: "New in original box,Test run and runs great!" or they say this "Slightly used like new condition!" Almost all of the ones I have bought have came with all 4 gears in the trucks cracked, which is a nothing to fix, but when you point out this to the seller. You always get some poor excuse as to why they did not know this, and never hear from them again.

[Anonymous]

Thats exactly why I stopped buying stuff on Ebay. To much stuff is misrepresented and sellers are charging a ridiculas shipping fee. I would give him the worse possible feedback that you can and suggest you dont buy anything from the Ebay sellers. Thats my opinion I know theres alot of Ebay sellers on this forum that will disagree with me and I'm sure there very reputable.

Steve

[jsoderq]

It sounds to me like this guy is selling stuff he buys from train shows. The slow shipping is a result of having to get the stuff from the show. The reason you did not get the ones you thought is he sold them to somebody else before your money got there. Oh and NEVER buy off ebay unless you actually know the guy!

[cwclark]

I never..never..use used turnouts...they are too risky to reuse to say the least...thru personnel experience every turnout i've pulled and tried to reuse elsewhere had flaws..always purchase them brand new ...that's why i never use E-bay...you really don't know what you're getting and i've heard too many horror stories about purchases gone wrong from e-bay...chuck

[csmith9474]

Just as a side note, feedback amounts to squat for a buyer. Unless you are selling a lot I wouldn't worry about a neg on your feedback. If a buyer doesn't pay, I file a non-pay bidder dispute, place them on my blocked bidder list, hope the punk gets NARUd and move on to the next bidder on the list. Don't let a seller hold your feedback hostage if they have wronged you through an eBay transaction (unlike the one above). Neg 'em, and if they neg you back, place a response under your neg explaining what happened if it bothers you that bad.

And also, if you get another offer like that through a seller, just have them BIN the item or items. Then have them tell you when and where the auction will be listed.

[Anonymous]

I'll vote on the "you shouldn't leave E-bay feedback on non-Ebay deals" side of the equation.

I do disagree with those who say feedback doesn't count for a buyer. Many sellers won't accept bids from users with less than a certain feedback rating (including me when i sell).

Personally I buy on Ebay a lot and have never once had a problem. But I'll add that I avoid 'high risk' items; for instance I would never buy used turnouts at all, unless I could physically inspect them first.

[CraigN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Many sellers won't accept bids from users with less than a certain feedback rating (including me when i sell).

That's not really a fair practice IMHO. Just think about the newbie on the computer that's just getting started on Ebay. Or the kid that just left home and is starting his own account. If everyone felt this way, these new people to Ebay would never get a chance to up their score. And if this person with the low feedback number is the winning bid, doesn't he have the right to buy it from you first? And then also, you would be getting more money for what you are selling, isn't that what you really want?

Now I can understand why you wouldn't buy from someone with a low score. but that 's different.



Back to the topic: I would leave positive feedback for the Ebay deal, you got exactly what you bid on. I would also mark this as a lesson learned. Don't do backdoor deals unless you know the other person involved.

Craig

[davekelly]

First off - I don't think that seller is such a great guy. Having said that, the actual ebay transaction was a smooth/goodone. The other transaction wasn't. While not sure, I think the additional transaction is against ebay policy - you may want to check out the rules and then decide before complaining about something that is disallowed (if it is).

Because of the low number of transactions you have, it might be better to just chalk it off to "lesson learned" rather than risk a big ding on your feedback rating.

[ouengr]

In the past when I have had a problem with a seller, I have worked to resolve the matter before I leave negative feedback. One a couple of occasions, I have left negative feedback. Usually if this is neccessary, I wait until the last possible moment on the last possible day. This way the other party is not able to falsely retaliate.

It may be possible to contact e-bay safe harbor and let them know that a seller is attempting to sell items outside of ebay and let them deal with the seller. This is against there rules.

[Trainnut484]

I'm putting in my vote for the "don't leave Ebay feedback on non-Ebay purchases from seller". I think you should file it under "lesson learned" and move on. It's not worth the risk to your feedback. I do buy and sell model trains on Ebay, and so far I haven't been "skunked", meaning losing out totally on a purchase or sale, and my feedback rating is 100%.

However, I did receive a new locomotive from a seller that was poorly packaged; thus causing a part to break off. I emailed him about the broken part, and pointed out from his auction that the locomotive would be shipped in its original box, which it wasn't and was loose in the box it came in, but he waved it off with unsound excuses and didn't offer any compensation. The locomotive runs great, and the broken part can be easily repaired, but the seller dropped the ball on packaging and not providing great customer service when problems arose, so I left him negative feedback. I didn't have to worry about retaliation since he left me positive feedback after I paid. Before this auction, he had a feedback rating of 99.8%, so I felt confident about bidding on his auction. In the future, I'm not buying from him again.

Take care,

Russell

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CraigN

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Many sellers won't accept bids from users with less than a certain feedback rating (including me when i sell).

That's not really a fair practice IMHO. Just think about the newbie on the computer that's just getting started on Ebay. Or the kid that just left home and is starting his own account. If everyone felt this way, these new people to Ebay would never get a chance to up their score. And if this person with the low feedback number is the winning bid, doesn't he have the right to buy it from you first? And then also, you would be getting more money for what you are selling, isn't that what you really want?
Craig

It's completely fair and in some cases, necassary.. Just as there are bad sellers out there, there are bad bidders. Notice I didn't say Buyers. These are the people who register a new user ID for the sole purpose of causing problems. Ebay has a blockout feature that can prevent bidders with scores less than a given number (seller determined) from bidding on those auctions. Most sellers, ask that bidders with 0 or very low, albeit all positive, feedback to contact before bidding. If the bidder is truely interested in having the item, he / she will take the 30 seconds it takes to make contact. That lets the seller know that at least your intentions are good (initially).. This is also the reason many sellers now require immediate payment on buy it now items. Once a bid is placed and the auction ends, the seller is now on the hook to ebay for comission and if necassary, relist fees. The mal-intentioned bidder, never to be heard from, has cost the seller money, and in some cases, a great deal of money. The seller must then wait and jump through hoops to get the comission fees refunded but he is still out the listing fee.

My advice to Anyone buying on ebay, Know What you are buying, know what condition it's in, if a seller says New, find out How new. That is, What does the Seller define as new. Assume NOTHING. Does he Own the item and did he run it (locomotives for instance) or is he selling it from a lot of junk he picked up at an estate sale. The time it takes to ask a few simple questions is Far shorter than the length of time the sour taste of a bad deal will last. Naturally, as in the case of the OP in this thread, that doesn't always work to the best but it will go a long way in avoiding getting burned. If unsatisfied with answers, don't buy, move on to the next one. Oh yes, It's generally a good idea to avoid sellers who start with the statement "I don't know.....". When you look at thier past auctions, usually, you can see what type of stuff they generally deal in, and it's usually full of similar items as the one "I don't Know..... " about.

Jshrade, Atlas snap switches (and others like them) are swtiches with Plastic frogs, that are Way too wide and deep. The turnout is intended to be put in place of an 18" radius curve and that's why they come with that 1/3 18" radius section, to complete a full 18" radius section of track. For those reasons, they are generally not usable (though some people do) in areas like Yard ladders, through crossings, etc. While usable, expect to do some tweeking to keep your trains on the track with them. The Custum line turnouts (#4) on the other hand amount to roughly a 30" radius (give or take) through the frog though they aren't really curves..

Good luck,
Jeff

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CraigN

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Many sellers won't accept bids from users with less than a certain feedback rating (including me when i sell).

That's not really a fair practice IMHO. Just think about the newbie on the computer that's just getting started on Ebay.... Now I can understand why you wouldn't buy from someone with a low score. but that 's different.

Craig

My apologies for lack of clarity... we're actually in agreement on this (though I see many auctions that proactively require positive feedback). I do distinguish between negative feedback and zero feedback, and am happy to have 0-feedback bidders. I rarely even invoke the prohibition on too-many-negative-feedbacks bidders, unless they seem to be serial malcontents (i.e. I view someone with 5 negatives over the course of a couple years differently than someone with 5 in the last 2 months, even if their overall percentage is the same)

Having said that, for all the debate here and all the loosey-goosey aspects of the feedback system, I do find it works. The few bad sales I've ever had on E-bay were from people with notable negative feedback (thus the policy), and I've never had a bad sale to someone with a good feedback rating. Conversely, I only buy from people with strong feedback ratings and have never had an issue at all...

[SMassey]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ICRR1964

This is something that happens quite a bit on ebay, never make a deal behind Ebay for the simple fact that it can go bad and you not get what you want as stated. The guy pulled you in like a big fish. Don't leave him any feedback at all, thats the one way of getting even with him. I have done this in the past to some sellers who do poor packing and don't give you the insurance and item shows up in mail broken to bits. 9 times out of 10 they know this will happen, but get mad because you won't leave them feedback. I always send them pictures of the damage items, and show them their poor packing in photo's, it gets dropped like a stone then. I end up fixing the item and re selling then stating it had been damaged in shipping from another seller, and get most if not all of my money back.

This is actually a common problem with P2K locos. I have bought 2 brand new ones that were never out of the box and the gears were already broken. LL fixed this problem once they found out abut it and Walthers will send you new wheel sets to fix this. Time, no abuse cause this. One loco I have did not have broken gears when I test ran it but by the time I put my decoder in it and ran it again it was busted. Walthers said it had to do with the plastic used and the oil that caused the cracking and the new gears fixed this issue.

As for the E-bay stuff I have had only one problem and it took that guy 62 days to send me my stuff. I finally got the stuff and I am not the only one that he did this to. When I bid on his auction he had a 100% rating but was fairly new. I didnt think much about him being new we all have to start somewhere. I covered my tracks (pun sry) by sending payment with a return recipt from the post office and also kept every E-mail I sent and every reply I recieved. He eventually lost his E-bay account for doing this to me and about 4 others.
Ebay was built for the honest public consumer, but there is the 5% of them that have know business on ebay at all.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike Rehling

QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal
You can't leave negative feedback about a deal which didn't occur using e-bay.

[#ditto]
You have to be sure to only give feedback on the items in the listing.

[#ditto]
It sounds like the actual e-bay part was exactly as advertised and a good transaction, which might merit a "good" feedback.

[bryanbell]

Looking at just the ebay transaction, the seller fulfilled their obligation. While he did take a lot of time to ship it, he did fulfil the obligation. He did violate ebay policy by offering a off ebay transaction. By accepting it both parties are in violation of ebay policy for fee evation.
Negative feedback shouldn't be left because of an off-ebay transaction.
I also think the practice of "holding feedback hostage" is wrong as well. If this buyer does have a pattern of "flaming" ppl that leave less than positive feedback, I would report them to ebay. It shouldn't be used as a bargining tool to extract favorable feedback for a less than positive transaction.
Like others have said, only complete transaction within ebay to help protect yourself. If you do that, ebay can be a good place to get good deals on hard to find things.

Bryan

[Anonymous]

I don't think you should shy away from eBay completely.

I agree, deals outside of eBay tend to bring more harm than good.

Do not leave feedback until you see if the guy is going to respond to your e-mail or not. If he does, let us see it. [:)]

Matt

[Don Gibson]

ALL or nothing!
I wouldn't try to salvage the good part of your order.

Let the seller know you are not happy with his order and want your money back. Your only threat is to post a 'GOODS NOT AS ADVERTISED' as feedback. He know's that..
Forget any other complaint's. See what he'll do.

A 'GOODS NOT AS ADVERTISED' will hurt him more, and counter any adverse feedback laid on you.

He sound's like a 'sharpie', and you're his mark. TRY to negate the whole deal and get your money back. The Negative feedback is your only lever... or your left holding the bag.