Feb. MR-I think they owe Aggro an article credit...

[loathar]

Just got the Feb issue today and they have an article on how to make conifer trees. It sounds almost word for word what Aggro posted on how he makes his trees.
I've said this before-They read what we post here, and then write articles about it giving credit to someone else. I've seen manufacturers do the same thing.
"I'M" not mad about this, but does anyone else see this happening???
I'll give credit to MR, the last 3 issues have been exceptionally good and helpful.
If I was Aggro, I'd be shaking my head.[:0]

[twhite]

I was thinking the same thing about that article. And in re-reading it, it seems to me that Aggro's technique (which I've used) has some additional sequences that make for an even better conifer than the article.
Hm--is someone reading this forum and picking up ideas and passing them off as their own? If so: BAD CAT--BOO!!
Tom

[Anonymous]

Re-read the article. I thought the same thing until I noticed that he said the trees were part of a Sweet water Scenery kit. I think Aggro's look better than the ones in the article anyway.....

[Anonymous]

Easy boys. This idea's been around since at least 1982 when I got it from some magazine or another and built a bunch o' firs. And it was probably an old idea then.

Some folks on Internet forums have a slightly overstated idea of the forum's importance and a lack of perspective based on the history of the hobby.

Jon

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan

Easy boys. This idea's been around since at least 1982 when I got it from some magazine or another and built a bunch o' firs. And it was probably an old idea then.

Some folks on Internet forums have a slightly overstated idea of the forum's importance and a lack of perspective based on the history of the hobby.

Jon

Just goes to show that everything that was once old ends up becoming new again.

James

[loathar]

Alco- I'm not upset about this or anything. I know that what once was old is new again.
I'm just seeing things in the industry that seem to jive with what we discuss here. It's not like it's patented or copy writed. But it's got to make you wonder.(doesn't it?)

[twhite]

Jon--you're right, actually I remember an article from some years back about using furnace filter for conifer trees, but as I remember, the technique was quite different--in fact I have a few old furnace filter trees that I bought based on that particular article. In all fairness to Aggro though, when he wrote his thread about a year ago, the technique was quite different--Aggro suggests tearing the material into strips, instead of cutting and clumping like the old MR article. Very similar to the tree kit in the new MR. But despite whoever came up with the idea originally, it's a great technique. Even if it's not original with Aggro, I for one am decidedly happy that he posted it.
Tom [:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar
I'm just seeing things in the industry that seem to jive with what we discuss here. It's not like it's patented or copy writed. But it's got to make you wonder.(doesn't it?)

Uh ... no.

There are a hundred things discussed here every day. And almost without exception, none of them are truly new.

Likewise, dozens of articles in the train magazines every month. Almost none of them are truly new ideas. There's bound to be lots of overlap all the time. It would be much more suprising if there weren't.

Especially when you consider that the lead time for an article in MR is months or years from the time it's purchased until the time it runs ...

Jon

[brothaslide]

I don't think articles are being plagiarized. I believe the MR staff would be more than happy to give credit where credit is due.

[loathar]

I think if anyone here deserves to get paid for writing articles on weathering or scenery It's Aggro[bow][bow][bow]

[Anonymous]

Back in the 80's I had a book called "Scenery Tips and Techniques" that was a compilation of old articles. And that book even had virtually the same technique in there.

(Aggro's trees do look great by the way...)

[jfugate]

Furnace filter trees have indeed been around in MR since the 1970s. And Canyon Creek Scenic's (see: http://www.canyoncreekscenics.com/ ) fabulous trees use furnace filter material as their basis ... although the CCS trees also include carefully modeled bark texture that's been drybrushed by hand to bring out the detail, individual limbs added, a darker ground foam added from below to enhance foliage shadow detail, and moss detail added to the trunk.

Truly a wonderful foreground tree -- but it's all based on the furnace filter idea.

My latest web page header image is shot through a grove of superdetailed CCS furnace filter trees, and no, they didn't get the idea from Aggro, as nice as his trees are.


(click image to enlarge)

[Noah Hofrichter]

I actually thought almost exactly the same thing when I first saw the article and I couldn't help but chuckle. I know it's not a new idea, but it sure seems like a mighty big coincidence. Either way it's neat to see that method being spread, but I'll always call them Aggro's trees, as that's where I learned it from.

Noah

[loathar]

Noah-Right. I made this post kind of tongue in cheek. I know that all this stuff gets recycled over and over. I just find it funny that some of the things we talk about here show up in MR 3-4 months later. I'm not knocking them. I think it's great that their spreading the info to people that don't know about these forums. I get a little bummed out when people reply "No, duh" to a post like this. I don't know, maybe it's MY dry sence of humor, or other peoples lack of any?

[edkowal]

It's no surprise to me that "...things that we talk about here..." are similar to topics that get covered in Model Railroader. If you spend any effort whatsoever, you'll discover that just about any topic germane to model railroading has been covered in this forum. And there are a lot of questions from folks getting started in the hobby, or relatively new. Now factor in Model Railroader's editorial policy concerning recruiting new modelers, and helping them get started with good techniques, and there should be no surprise at all.

Secondly, people have been modeling landscapes and simulating model railroads for a lot longer than there's been an Internet. If a variation on a well known technique gets published on a website, it should be understood for what it is, an incremental improvement to a technique. An incremental improvement, not a new technique. Long before anyone started to post "their" version of how to build trees, other people have been doing great work. To give just a few examples: the Fisher Museum of Harvard University http://harvardforest.fas.harvard.edu/museum.html started in the 1920's, the Pendon Museum in England http://www.pendonmuseum.com/index.jsp opened in the 1950's as the Pendon Museum, but had been started in 1930's, the New York Society of Model Engineers http://modelengineers.org/ started in 1926. Each of these organizations, and many more besides, have been using techniques very similar to what every one here has been refering to.

-Ed

[AggroJones]

Almost word for word? Thats not really cool. I still haven't recieved my Feb issue, so I haven't had a chance to read it. Does anyone know the name of this possible thieving author ?

I think the first thing I mentioned in my tree post was that the concept of filter trees already exsisted, but I was going to share my method.

I plagerized no one.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

Almost word for word? Thats not really cool.

Oh good grief. Untwist your knickers.

The methods are different and there's nothing close to a word-for-word copy. The MR article starts with a kit, so there's nothing about the work to stain and form the trunk. The sections of filter material are cut into squares, not rounds as Aggro's post. Aggro's method, as most of the historical methods, leaves a little space between filter sections. The Sweetwater/MR method fluffs up each filter segment and lets them rest against one another. The Sweetwater/MR mehod calls for trimming after the tufts are on the tree, before foliage is added (again, they started with squares, not rounds). Aggro spray paints, then puts on ground foam with hair spray, then trims. No spray paint in the Sweetwater/MR method, they go to ground foam, adhered with matte medium (although they do mention hairspray as an option).

Etc., etc., etc. Some similarities, some differences. Nowhere near a word-for-word copy. Not even close.

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

Noah-Right. I made this post kind of tongue in cheek. I know that all this stuff gets recycled over and over. I just find it funny that some of the things we talk about here show up in MR 3-4 months later. I'm not knocking them. I think it's great that their spreading the info to people that don't know about these forums. I get a little bummed out when people reply "No, duh" to a post like this. I don't know, maybe it's MY dry sence of humor, or other peoples lack of any?

So you're saying that when you wrote in your very first post phrases like:

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

...sounds almost word for word ...
... I've said this before-They read what we post here, and then write articles about it giving credit to someone else....
... If I was Aggro, I'd be shaking my head.[:0] ...

... you were jus' funnin'?

Accusing a magazine (and our host) of plagiarism isn't funny. At least not to me.

And puh-lease ... talk about the tail wagging the dog. This method was popularized in printed magazines and books decades before the web existed. Check out Gail Holland's article in the April 1980 MR for an example ... and it was probably an old idea then.

If you make an accusation, be sure you have your facts straight, then own it afterwards ... or admit you were wrong.

By the way, Aggro's method makes some fine trees. It's the same method I used in 1982, just slightly before he posted.

Jon

[jfugate]

Well said, Jon.

For example, I could get all wrapped around the axle about who invented the mushroom idea, since I came up with it on my own, but others got it to print before me. I'm not too worried about keeping score -- it's a great hobby and life's to short to worry about who gets the credit.

You know what they say ... *originality* is defined as your ability to conceal your source. [swg]

I think King Solomon said it best some 3,000 years ago ... "there's really nothing new under the sun" meaning there are darn few totally original ideas that we come up with that didn't have input from *someone else*.

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan
Oh good grief. Untwist your knickers.

The methods are different and there's nothing close to a word-for-word copy.

Etc., etc., etc. Some similarities, some differences. Nowhere near a word-for-word copy. Not even close.

Ain't no *** knickers twisted. And if what you say is true then there is no problem.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Well said, Jon.

For example, I could get all wrapped around the axle about who invented the mushroom idea, since I came up with it on my own, but others got it to print before me. I'm not too worried about keeping score -- it's a great hobby and life's to short to worry about who gets the credit.

You know what they say ... *originality* is defined as your ability to conceal your source. [swg]

I think King Solomon said it best some 3,000 years ago ... "there's really nothing new under the sun" meaning there are darn few totally original ideas that we come up with that didn't have input from *someone else*.

Or, from Terence - "Nihil dictum quod non dictum pruis."

(Nothing is said that has not been said before.)

[CNJ831]

Along this same line of thinking that the supposedly "new" is likely very old, anyone care to guess when, where, and by whom the use of extruded foam insulation board for model railroad scenery/terrain was first illustrated?

CNJ831

[jwar]

I dont really care who did what or when. But wist to thank those of you for your time and effort when you post things such as aggro, joe and others.

What was really trick about the trees, is that I taught my 8 year old granddaughter the method on making trees from aggros post. She made a spanish mission for a class project, and seeing the first tree she made in front of it.... made my day....John