Be Careful Where you Cut Corners!

[mondotrains]

Hi Guys,
We all like to save money and certainly in this hobby there are many ways to cut corners and save money. However, I'd like to share a story with you that will hopefully cause you to think before you compromise and try to save money.

Unfortunately, one of my best MR buddies recently got out of the hobby. I think a major reason for his departure is that myself and others who were working on his layout were complaining too much and he got disgusted.

Our complaints essentially were about three issues. First, my friend had bought the cheap shop lights to mount over his layout. These $5.00 double flourescent fixtures come with the cheapest ballast available and the result is that the lights give off a "flutter" that can drive your eyes crazy and give you a headache. I did some research and because of his mistake, I bought fixtures at Lowe's that cost arount $25.00 each and the light is great...no flutter and no headaches.

His second big mistake was to not use Homosote over his plywood. Instead, he used a cheaper material that looks like the brown cardboard ceiling tiles from the 1950's. He probably saved $50.00 using this material however, when we laid track, we had to dip each spike into white glue so the spikes would hold. Unlike Homosote, the cardboard would not "grab" the spikes. Can you imagine how much time we wasted dipping each spike into white glue before driving it home? Also, it was very difficult to lay curves because the spikes wouldn't hold until the white glue had set.

His third mistake was not trying to make the train room temperature acceptable in the summer. He left his cellar windows open when it was 90 degrees and humid outside. I couldn't convince him that if he'd run his dehumidifier, the cellar would have been dryer and hence would have been more comfortable. He didn't want to spend the money on electricity to run the dehumidifier.

While there are other mistakes that can be made, these all added up to a real problem. I found working on his layout a drudgery. I kept looking at the clock hoping the work sessions would end. Needless to say, it was more like work than fun.

There was an article in MR recently on how one guy made his train room comfortable....sofas, comfortable chairs, a coffee table etc. Maybe some of his ideas are overkill but let's face it.....if you want guys to work on your layout, be careful where you compromise.

It really is a shame that my buddy is now out of the hobby. We spent 11 years working side by side and watching the trains run. Isn't it too bad that he spoiled it to save a few bucks?

Mondo

[trainfreek92]

that stinks!!!!!!!!!!!! sounds like a cheap skate!!! Tim

[IRONROOSTER]

I agree, you need decent lighting, temperature, and decent materials for the layout. The solution if you need to save money is to have a smaller layout.
Enjoy
Paul

[joeyegarner]

Hey maybe he can sell it on Ebay!!

[tatans]

How true, Garbage in, Garbage out, sounds typical, I met a guy who thought nothing of buying a $1200.00 brass loco and would hunt around construction sites rummaging for wood scraps, until he was at a construction site that was guarded by a dog, 10 stiches later and new pants and almost a big fine for theft and trespassing, he finally quit doing it, but he is still a cheapskate (being a cheapskate is NOT a compliment, by the way), By the way what is homosote?? sounds like something strange.

[selector]

Tom, you funny guy! [;)]

Where do you draw the line? You really do get what you pay for, but if a cheaper substitute (key word) can be found, it could mean the difference between a cheap line of plastic train set loco or a better one. If you fellows never did make it clear to him that you found his substitutions or his conditions unacceptable, then he was justified in persisting.

How did it go so far? Exactly what was it that set him off? Was there the proberbial last straw?

This is puzzling to me.

-Crandell

[Anonymous]

Homosote is a soundproofing board that is sometimes used as a train board over plywood in areas such as San Francisco, Key West, and Greenwich Village in New York City.

JIm

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

How true, Garbage in, Garbage out, sounds typical, I met a guy who thought nothing of buying a $1200.00 brass loco and would hunt around construction sites rummaging for wood scraps, until he was at a construction site that was guarded by a dog, 10 stiches later and new pants and almost a big fine for theft and trespassing, he finally quit doing it, but he is still a cheapskate (being a cheapskate is NOT a compliment, by the way), By the way what is homosote?? sounds like something strange.

[BRAKIE]

IMHO your buddy needed NEW friends instead of quiting the hobby.I DARE you to come to my home complaining because I am not modeling to YOUR way or building a layout the way you would..Naw,he needs new friends.

[red p]

its hard to enjoy the hobby if your not comfortable in the train room.
just my [2c]

[Anonymous]

Too bad that _HE_ spoiled it? I'm gonna concur with Brakie and say I don't think he's the one that spoiled it...

First off, the $50 you mention he saved with his non-homasote roadbed is a lot of money to some folks, yours truly included. TONS of people, again including your author here, don't use it at all, but use cork instead, which also doesn't "grab" spikes. Are we all cheapskates too? Are we imposing terrible burdens on folks who might help us out? I don't know your buddy or his financial situation. Nor yours. Which means it's no more or less likely that he's a "cheapskate" than it is that you are a "spendthrift"...

Regardless, a little more respect for his viewpoint on the value of a buck might be in order. You complain that he won' t run the dehumidifer, but were you ready to pay his electric bill? You complain he doesn't use homasote, but did you bring any of yours over and offer it to him?

It's not like he was forcing you at gunpoint to eat glass shards or anything... I mean c'mon already.. Doncha think it sounds a little whiny to be saying "oh, we had to dip each spike in glue, the agony, the agony"...??? Seriously...

Look at it the other way: There are endless discussions on this board of ways to save money, and many meet with thanks and praise. Few meet with derision and catcalls of "you cheapskate!"... In fact, if your buddy came on, posted about the material he uses and said "for 3 seconds extra to dip each spike in glue, you can save $XX per linear foot of track" he'd probably get a bunch of responses saying thanks and they were going to try that...

If you're right that the griping over his cheapness drove him out of the hobby... That's a real shame no matter what. But I'm not ready to say for sure that his cheapness was the problem rather than the griping. You always had the option just to quit coming over, or come less, or come only in the winter, or whatever allowed you to "grin and bear it" for someone you call a "friend."

I try to be a little more understanding (or at least tolerant) of my friends' quirks and foibles. God knows they have to be so of mine, and I'm grateful for that.

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

Homosote is a soundproofing board that is sometimes used as a train board over plywood in areas such as San Francisco, Key West, and Greenwich Village in New York City.

JIm

Jim:

I trust the "areas such as San Francisco, Key West, and Greenwich Village in New York City" was a tongue in cheek comment or a pun. I've model railroaded all over the country over the years and haven't found an area yet in which Homosote is NOT used...when it can be found. I should also say that I've not found an area yet in which some modelers refused to use Homosote for various reasons.

As to what Homosote is, it's a 4x8 sheet of old newspapers. Of course, the old newspapers are soaked in ???, some sort of glue is added, and a lot of pressure is used to form the 4x8 sheet. It comes in various thicknesses but I've seen it most often in 1/2 or 5/8 inch thicknesses.

The very worst thing about Homosote is the unbelievable amount of fine gray dust produced when you saw it. If anyone is interested in Homosote, California Roadbed Co at http://homabed.com/ will do the cutting for you and save you a lot of clean up work.

Chuck

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

How true, Garbage in, Garbage out, sounds typical, I met a guy who thought nothing of buying a $1200.00 brass loco and would hunt around construction sites rummaging for wood scraps, until he was at a construction site that was guarded by a dog, 10 stiches later and new pants and almost a big fine for theft and trespassing, he finally quit doing it, but he is still a cheapskate (being a cheapskate is NOT a compliment, by the way), By the way what is homosote?? sounds like something strange.

Homasote is supposed to be ground up newspapers, sand and glue, coming in 4 x 8' sheets avaiable at Home Depot....at least that's where I bought mine several years ago. I glued it to the top of my plywood and it makes a great base for spiking track.

If you were referring to my spelling...I'm not sure if it's Homosote or Homasote, then I guess you already know what it is.

Mondo

[Anonymous]

Hi Chuck

Yes, Tatans and I were just fooling around a bit ........ Mondo misspelled Homasote as Homosote.

I've been using 440Homasote since my Lionel days.

Jim

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Too bad that _HE_ spoiled it? I'm gonna concur with Brakie and say I don't think he's the one that spoiled it...

First off, the $50 you mention he saved with his non-homasote roadbed is a lot of money to some folks, yours truly included. TONS of people, again including your author here, don't use it at all, but use cork instead, which also doesn't "grab" spikes. Are we all cheapskates too? Are we imposing terrible burdens on folks who might help us out? I don't know your buddy or his financial situation. Nor yours. Which means it's no more or less likely that he's a "cheapskate" than it is that you are a "spendthrift"...

Regardless, a little more respect for his viewpoint on the value of a buck might be in order. You complain that he won' t run the dehumidifer, but were you ready to pay his electric bill? You complain he doesn't use homasote, but did you bring any of yours over and offer it to him?

It's not like he was forcing you at gunpoint to eat glass shards or anything... I mean c'mon already.. Doncha think it sounds a little whiny to be saying "oh, we had to dip each spike in glue, the agony, the agony"...??? Seriously...

Look at it the other way: There are endless discussions on this board of ways to save money, and many meet with thanks and praise. Few meet with derision and catcalls of "you cheapskate!"... In fact, if your buddy came on, posted about the material he uses and said "for 3 seconds extra to dip each spike in glue, you can save $XX per linear foot of track" he'd probably get a bunch of responses saying thanks and they were going to try that...

If you're right that the griping over his cheapness drove him out of the hobby... That's a real shame no matter what. But I'm not ready to say for sure that his cheapness was the problem rather than the griping. You always had the option just to quit coming over, or come less, or come only in the winter, or whatever allowed you to "grin and bear it" for someone you call a "friend."

I try to be a little more understanding (or at least tolerant) of my friends' quirks and foibles. God knows they have to be so of mine, and I'm grateful for that.

Your point that we weren't at gunpoint to eat shards of glass is well taken. What I was trying to say is that if you're going to host a work session, it's important to consider the conditions under which you expect people to work. This guy spent $20,000 in 4 years to lease an SUV. It's not like he couldn't afford to pay an electric bill or buy better benchwork. He is extravagent in many ways.
Actually, now that I think about it, he told me that his reason for getting out of the hobby is that one of the other guys we know quit coming over or when he did, it was extremely late and only for a short while. I know that the reason that guy stopped coming over to my friends was because of all the "problems" I cited.

Again, I wasn't trying to act like I expect air conditioning, the best lighting and stuffed lobster for snacks. My point was that if you expect people to help you build your layout, you should consider their needs.

Also, reread what I said about dipping the spikes into white glue. It didn't work well because it was almost impossible to lay flex track on a curve, even with the glue. We spent hours and hours trying to get the track to stay in place and even my friend who owned the layout was sorry he didn't use Homasote.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cefinkjr
The very worst thing about Homosote is the unbelievable amount of fine gray dust produced when you saw it.

Another "downside" of Homasote is its sensitivity to changes in humidity - just as paper and cardboard warp and wrinkle when they get wet, humidity will distort your Homasote board unless you have it firmly fastened to the underlying plywood with as many screws as possible.

[Eriediamond]

L-girder construction. Does away with that expensive plywood. Darn, noe I'm a cheapskate. Not only that, I didn't take typeing lessons either. [(-D][(-D] Yes, mondo, it's a shame but he brought it on, not you.

[cefinkjr]

Jim:

You're right...it is Homasote.

I obviously didn't catch the misspelling. I just repeated it a couple of times. [:I]

Anyway, I think you and I agree that it's a good roadbed product. Some folks have claimed it warps too much or that it doesn't hold spikes well enough. I've not had either bad experience with it.

Chuck

[Virginian]

First, I must side with those who think the layout owner was mainly at fault. Yes, it was his layout and he could do as he pleased, and he did, but it also appears he did not want to do it alone. If you want people to help you, you had better learn to listen.
Second, I have been using Homasote from coastal Carolina and Virginia, to Canada, to Ohio, and I have never run across any of the 'problems' some people attribute to it in 30 plus years. However, there ARE several types, so maybe some people are getting the wrong thing, and yes it is all called Homasote as that's the brand name. I do not saw it or the dust is horrendous. Use a razor knife and there is zero dust.

[Anonymous]

Mondotrains,
If you have all of these ideas about how to build a MRR, then build one of your own. Like the other guys said, you could of left it alone. That's why I built my own layout. Not that my freinds wouldn't help, It's because there not into MRR like I am and I wouldn't try to convince them too. So now that your friend left the hobby, What are you doing? Are you still a MRR? did you join another club? If he's out, your out? Not to be rude as I don't know you personnally, but don't piggyback.. With that said, find another friend that enjoys the hobby as much as you do AND knows how it should be done as you do. Put you money together and build. Or do it yourself if money ain't a thing. I'm not rich nor poor and I got a lot and more is comming. I find building a layout on my own with my own hands is the biggest enjoyment. When people see my layout, I can say "I BUILT IT"

[BRAKIE]

mondotrains says:Your point that we weren't at gunpoint to eat shards of glass is well taken. What I was trying to say is that if you're going to host a work session, it's important to consider the conditions under which you expect people to work. This guy spent $20,000 in 4 years to lease an SUV. It's not like he couldn't afford to pay an electric bill or buy better benchwork. He is extravagent in many ways.
=============================================================
Perhaps his life style didn't leave much of a hobby budget like you think? At any rate if you hated doing this then why bother?
BTW..I have used spikes on bare plywood many times in years gone by on certain types of layouts and had no problems..Didn't need to use glue either.
===========================================================
Again, I wasn't trying to act like I expect air conditioning, the best lighting and stuffed lobster for snacks. My point was that if you expect people to help you build your layout, you should consider their needs.
===========================================================
Sounds to me like YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS wanted to be the boss on how he builds his layout..When I help somebody I listen to what the BUILDER has to say even if I disagree..After all its his/her layout and not to mention I am a INVITED GUEST in his/her home regardless how long I have known him/her.

[cmrproducts]

When a person builds a layout and uses materials that are not the best of quality then the finished product will never operate properly.

I have been in this hobby for 30 plus years now and have tried all of the ideas that have been talked about on the net and in the magazines. Some worked others weren’t worth the time to even try. The long term stability was just not there.

I have been a member of a club for 25 years and we have learned a lot of things of what will and will not work. When you have paying guests in to see a layout it had better be running or they won’t be back!

The members have also helped others build their layouts. And yes we have given some layout owners the over the glasses look many times after seeing how they put the layout together.

They just couldn’t figure out why the trains wouldn’t stay on the track (just because the track is kinked and was not fastened down properly). When ask why, they refuse to do anything about it. Or they said if you have a problem with then change it! We did and the layout owner just could not get over the improvement it made, imagine that!

What the real problem might have been with the layout owner that got out of the hobby was he finally figured out that the helpers were right but did not want to tear it all down and then rebuild it again. Was he really that dedicated to the hobby? No one will ever know.

Now in my case and being a member of a club we had to make a decision to rebuild the HO layout. Instead of just trying to cobble it together we decided to remove it all together and build all new. But then a year later we had to move! We did and started all over again. 2 years later (in the new place) we had a fire. This was the final straw for a number of members, they quit (why? Didn’t want to do it again). But then they were not that dedicated to being a model railroader. They finally built their own home layouts and their final product showed the same dedication that they had put into the club (very little).

Yes, this is supposed to be a hobby but if you don’t want to do a good job on building a layout then you will end up wasting a lot of money and time and will be frustrated that the layout does not operate smoothly. The hobby is supposed to be relaxing not get you upset each time you run it due to the poor performance of the final product.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Tom Bryant_MR]

QUOTE: First, my friend had bought the cheap shop lights to mount over his layout. These $5.00 double flourescent fixtures come with the cheapest ballast available and the result is that the lights give off a "flutter" that can drive your eyes crazy and give you a headache. I did some research and because of his mistake, I bought fixtures at Lowe's that cost arount $25.00 each and the light is great...no flutter and no headaches.

Timing is eveything and am I glad I saw this post. I am working on lighting and power for garage right now and last evening I went to Walmart and bought 3ea 4 ft fluor fixtures - $8 each. I am now going to test the things and may return them in favor of an 8 ft from Home Depot for $23.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
Yes, this is supposed to be a hobby but if you don’t want to do a good job on building a layout then you will end up wasting a lot of money and time and will be frustrated that the layout does not operate smoothly. The hobby is supposed to be relaxing not get you upset each time you run it due to the poor performance of the final product.

AMEN! That is why I've spent over two years building my own still-unfinished layout. With a resource like this forum, there's no excuse for me to rush blindly into it as I did on my previous one (which was built in 1990). I'm building everything myself*, so (1) I don't have to be dependent on my friends' schedules/availability and (2) it makes troubleshooting problems much easier since I remember where everything is from when I first built it.

* - with expert guidance, of course!

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tom Bryant_MR

QUOTE: First, my friend had bought the cheap shop lights to mount over his layout. These $5.00 double flourescent fixtures come with the cheapest ballast available and the result is that the lights give off a "flutter" that can drive your eyes crazy and give you a headache. I did some research and because of his mistake, I bought fixtures at Lowe's that cost arount $25.00 each and the light is great...no flutter and no headaches.

Timing is eveything and am I glad I saw this post. I am working on lighting and power for garage right now and last evening I went to Walmart and bought 3ea 4 ft fluor fixtures - $8 each. I am now going to test the things and may return them in favor of an 8 ft from Home Depot for $23.

Hi Tom,
I was hoping someone would pick up on the lighting issue and it appears that you have. There have been many articles in MR magazine about using both flourescents and incandescent lighting but I found that using a good 4 foot flourescent fixture (with a better ballast) with GE "Kitchen & Bath" 4 foot light bulbs produced wonderful soft light very similar to incandescent lighting. Go to a lighting store that deals only in lighting and they will show you the difference in different bulbs and they will have the better fixtures. However, like I said before, I did find better fixtures at Lowe's Home Improvement.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

[Anonymous]

I agree that it's a mistake to penny-pinch in the construction phase. This is speaking as someone who was once talked into using honeycomb-type ceiling tiles as a layout base with cork tiles glued on top. Never again - they were brittle, they warped, they were heavy, you couldn't joing them together easily, and there was invariably a bit of tile exactly where you wanted to put a switch machine. From now on it's 5mm MDF and 2x1 framing on everything - it may be heavy but it works!

[emdgp92]

When I built my current layout, I decided to start over. In other words, I got rid of all the junk. I threw out the old track, the train-set power packs, and even retired the last of the Tyco engines. Why keep that stuff around? I felt that it was too frustrating to keep repairing and/or messing with things. I'm glad that I started over. It's much more relaxing :)

[jecorbett]

I think we all have to make compromises between what we would like to have and what we can afford. These compromises are usually dictated by what is important to us. Even if your friend could have afforded the improvements you suggested, it may have meant sacrificing something else on his railroad or something else in other phases of his life. Did it ever occur to you that even a guy who is well off might be disciplined enough to allow himself a strict allowance for what he spends each month on his hobby and he is trying to stretch those dollars as besthe can. I think we should be respectful of the choices other modelers make regarding their own layouts.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Mondo, it's sad to hear of someone leaving the hobby due to frustration. It makes me wonder if your friend had been a member of the forums here, would he have gotten the advice needed to make better decisions? I would like to think so.

[loathar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tom Bryant_MR

QUOTE: First, my friend had bought the cheap shop lights to mount over his layout. These $5.00 double flourescent fixtures come with the cheapest ballast available and the result is that the lights give off a "flutter" that can drive your eyes crazy and give you a headache. I did some research and because of his mistake, I bought fixtures at Lowe's that cost arount $25.00 each and the light is great...no flutter and no headaches.

Timing is eveything and am I glad I saw this post. I am working on lighting and power for garage right now and last evening I went to Walmart and bought 3ea 4 ft fluor fixtures - $8 each. I am now going to test the things and may return them in favor of an 8 ft from Home Depot for $23.

Hi Tom,
I was hoping someone would pick up on the lighting issue and it appears that you have. There have been many articles in MR magazine about using both flourescents and incandescent lighting but I found that using a good 4 foot flourescent fixture (with a better ballast) with GE "Kitchen & Bath" 4 foot light bulbs produced wonderful soft light very similar to incandescent lighting. Go to a lighting store that deals only in lighting and they will show you the difference in different bulbs and they will have the better fixtures. However, like I said before, I did find better fixtures at Lowe's Home Improvement.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

I just went through all this after reading a lighting post here. I got those kitchen and bath bulbs..YUK!!!!! Made the whole room glow pink. I returned them for the daylight bulbs...YUK!!! Whole room glowed blue. Went for the more expensive 40 watt bulbs...YUK!!! Looked like grow lights. Finally went with the cheap 25 watt shop bulbs..PERFECT! Fortunatly I'm don't get headaches from these.
One thing everone seems to be missing is if the room is that uncomfortable for people it's not going to be great on the layout either. I'm a little freaked out over what I've got to spend to make my train building comfortable.
$500 for roof insulation or a drop ceiling
$150 for roof vents to get the summer heat out.
$1000 for an AC/heater/dehumidifyer
$200 to seal the cement floor or $500 for carpet
$50 a month extra for electricity.
That's almost 2 grand without spending a cent on the layout.
This IS NOT a cheap hobby.
Are you guys using this homasite instead of cork road bed? I've always just used 5\8" particle board with cork road bed and never had a problem. Nice and quite too.

[jecorbett]

To the fellow who bought his shop lights at Walmart and is now considering going to buy more expensive ones I'd say he might not want to rush out and buy the new ones.
I bought a long string of shop lights at Walmart for my layout for about the price he stated and they have worked beautfully for two years now. I have had none of the flickering problems mentioned in the original post except for one bulb which I replaced. Problem solved. Give the Walmart lights a chance. You may find you don't need the more expensive ones. You don't always have to buy top of the line equipment. In some cases it is worth it but other times, you can get away with a cheaper substitute. It's all a matter of knowing when.