Why manufacturer's are missing the boat with the Golden Age.

[SpaceMouse]

The most common argument I hear about not producing pre 1900's equipment is that everyone who grew up then is dead. True and not true.

Many of us grew up in a time whne the most viewed trains were Americans and Moguls. They were the ones on TV, on the westerns. It was the old timers that were getting robbed, and that John Wayne rode and protected. That's why they are so dear to our hearts.

Show me a kid who grew up with the Lone Ranger and I'll show you a model railroader who has a least considered modeling the Old West.

[joeyegarner]

I think it's just a matter of what you like..... Myself I'm not too much into the early 1900s I Have a couple of Moguls, but refer modeling the 50's plus or minus a decade.. Alot of the new equipment is really cool. I have a AC4400 and really like the 70macs and others. Now I do beleive there is a market for the the era your talking about and we would like to see everyone happy. But you know and I know they will sell what sells. Just my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Chip,

I grew up with the Lone Ranger and the Cisco Kid, Kit Carson, Bat Masterson, Wyatt Earp, and others. Modeling the old west never ocurred to me, ever. I guess it might be fun, but I prefer either the railroading I grew up with or the railroading going on down by the tracks today.

Cheers,

Ed

[howmus]

Hey Chip! Yeh, all those old "very cool" locos were what we used to see in the old westerns. There is something about they way they would always spin the drivers at least once when they started with 3 cars. LOL I used to think that there was some reason that had to be done for the train to start. I agree that the romanticism of those old timers would be a good selling point. Many people (certainly not all) who use much more modern steam (and Diseasals) would want one or two just to have them around. If they could only get them to run correctly and pull a decent period string of cars....... I am very excited about the "modern" 4-4-0 Bachmann is coming out with. I have debated preordering one, but I usually like to see how they run before commiting.

[chutton01]

I was always under the impression that there was a huge subgroup of pre-turn of the last-century modelers - the modelers of the Colorado narrow gauge roads. Now granted, in the 1970s MR photo-tours there was sure to be a Jordan Model T parked somewhere if it was an HO layout (thereby pushing the layout at least into 1910+ terrority) but most I have seen I believe are set pre-WW I, mostly 1880-1890s.

[selector]

Beauty is...yadda. I don't happen to find much appeal in the older pan-head cylinders, the inverted triangular stacks, and the long, pole-supported cowcatchers. They just don't do it for me. The lines of a K-4 or Challenger are very appealing for my tastes.

Maybe there just isn't enough of a "concerted" voice rising to inform them of the need or demand. I wish you great success, though, because I know how important it is to YOU.

[jag193]

I beg to differ. Most of the Colorado narrow gaugers I know model the 1930's ... it's just that the Depression and the west make things look that way! The last "regular season" of the D&RGW was 1963, hardly the turn of the last century! Anyway ... I'd like to see some of the older stuff, too!

[Anonymous]

Chip, that's exactly what I was thinking last time the topic came up - a massive number of people grew up watching Westerns, many if not most of which would have had trains of that era. The potential market should be huge. It amazes me that the 4-4-0 is such a symbol of American railroading but there's no good RTR plastic model available.

[hminky]

There has never been a big market for nineteenth century models. Paul Larson's Model Railroader period as editor(1960's) had a great deal of this era in print. It wasn't a big market even then, now there are forty more years of railroading to cover.
It is all a matter of what you want. I model the 1870's, growing up reading Larson, Reschenburg and Odegard's turn of the nineteenth century modeling articles. I went further back because I like big stacks



Just a thought
Harold

[Anonymous]

Perhaps it's the "Golden Age" to you, but probably not to the rest of the modelers?

If there was a demand, there would be more products from the turn of the century.

My personal interests are all over the place, from Shays, Climaxes, Heislers to the latest 6000HP diesels. I have the intent to build an "operating diorama" in On30, using my older steam engines. Not because I'm particularly interested in the age when they ran, but because I find the old time woodsy scenes very interesting and "funky".

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

Well, let's not be blindered here. There is one place that offers scads of this type of equipment: G-scale. I'd have to put 75% of the product offered there into this time period. I'm not saying it's tremendously prototypical, but a trip to your LHS should reveal a far, far higher profusion of it than in smaller scales.

Having said that, I'm not into the era for two reasons:

1) Aesthetic. Like some others here, the rolling stock (and structures, etc.) of the era just don't do anything for me. Has nothing to do with being alive (I wasn't alive for the period I model now, either) or with what I watched as a kid. Just doesn't have any "wow" factor for me. And size does play a factor here. I think the pre-1900 equipment often fails to satisfy simply for not having enough "heft"... Which may explain why it shows up in larger scales more - where it's smaller size plays to advantage for most.

2) Size Again. Not aesthetically this time, but physically. Even with the latest technology, the physical size of the equipment imposes limitations. Until not-that-long-ago, a lot of the locos from that period would have had tender-drive... not appealing. Even today as technology grows smaller, I think you'd be hard pressed to fit a decent drive chain, and a decoder into an old-timer 4-4-0 (not to mention sound). For me, at least, DCC has become a prerequisite.

[Anonymous]

I model 1925 logging, that way if I want a FSM engine house that's OK or if I want to slap a bunch of scrap wood and tin together that's fine too. You have to love that rusty equipment and weathered buildings.Just my thoughts.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Even today as technology grows smaller, I think you'd be hard pressed to fit a decent drive chain, and a decoder into an old-timer 4-4-0 (not to mention sound). For me, at least, DCC has become a prerequisite.

I think if you can't bet a decoder in your steamer you're not trying hard enough. Sound is a different story--so far.

[vsmith]

Spacemouse

I shouldnt offer this but Bachmann sells an unbelievable "Golden Age" 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 in large scale, there modeled after narrow gauge but given the difference between standard gauge and narrow gauge at the time was that they simply built the same loco only reduced in scale 35% I'd say they'd make quite the nice standard guage lokies too with the right scaled figures used to give the scale reference.

[vsmith]

Bachmann large scale
American:

Mogul:

TenWheeler:

Passenger car:



Got Yard?
[;)]

[gvdobler]

Chip

One of the more fun layouts I made was a simple twice around modified figure eight on a 4x8 that had the Virginian & Truckee steamer and the Roundhouse passenger cars that looked a lot like the thread above me.

It was a lot of fun and complete with scenery and I gave it to a woman at work for her kid.

I have another set still in boxes and hope to run it on a modern era as a tourist train.

[CNJ831]

Poll, after poll, after poll has demonstrate that their is very little interest among HO modelers for the pre-1900 era. Generally less than 5% of those polled express any interest in modeling this period. Not only is it dramatically removed in time from the present but personal knowledge and reference material regarding what was "typical" of the period is hard to come by.

Incidentally, I and many of my hobby friends did grow up in the era of the Lone Ranger, Bonanza, and the Cisco Kid TV shows and were avid fans but none of us has ever expressed any interest in modeling that era.

CNJ831

[ereimer]

i'm with Chip !

i think of it as a challenge to model the pre-USRA period . i feel sure that more locos will be coming , if they can build a 2-8-0 or a shay in N i'm sure they can build a small 2-6-0 in HO that will accept a dcc decoder , hopefully with sound .

i'm working on an MDC old-timer 2-6-0 kit . lots of work to get it running at all , making it dcc-ready is just an extra challenge . i also just bought an old tyco 4-8-0 kit that i'm going to try to bash into a 4-6-0 . if it works it will look cool .

i don't see G as a likely possibility for me . canadian winters plus my dislike for yardwork equals not going to happen .

[dehusman]

Turn of the century information can't be that hard to come by, I have at least a half dozen books on the era and four 3" binders of photocopied information. You just have to look for it. I have found rule books on E-Bay, reprints of Official Railway Guides, Westerfield sells ORER's on CD. I should get my 10th pre-1911 rule book in the next week, The oldest rule book I have found for my railroad on E-bay was 1876.

Also I don't model the "wild west". In the pre-1900's probably 90% of the railroad mileage in the US was east of the Mississippi.

As far as the % of modelers, there are probably fewer On3 or traction modelers and they have 50-100 times more products than the pre-1911 modeler. For the company that offers a full product line in that era, they can be the 800 lb gorilla in that market.

Dave H.

[bcawthon]

We cheated a bit. When we created the Grimy Gulch Scenic Railway, we built it as a tourist recreation of an old west town. That way we get to have the old locomotives and rolling stock, horses, covered wagons, saloons as well as people in modern clothing and cars and trucks.

[slotracer]

This was beaten into the ground on this forum a month or so back. If there was a potential market out there, there are enough maufacturers looking for an unserved market and someone would start to capitalize on it. If it was well supported other product offerings and manufacturers would soon jump on board.

Set aside the fact that there is no one alive today that has any real relation to this period and thus any attachement or motivation to dedicate modeling it (TV westerns alone are not sufficient motivation to almost anyone) the period is so far different thatn the world we live in today. The time period frm even teh thirties till today reflect a style of life not as different as what teh late 1800's are vs today. From the thirties onward one can relate to developed cities, modern roads, automobiles rural areas that were more developed, industry etc. Before 1900 you are talking horse and buggy, primitive rural towns, ancient city design...an entirely different world. I also agre with many here that the puny and somewhat shabby cars of the period light weight locomotives with single cylinders balloon stacks and the like are not as interesting as the stuff in the 20's and newer.

It's what you like and perheps the old build it and they will come would hold true. Some manufacturers could release loads of stuff for that era but unfortunately I think it would end up showing as a bad investment. I think it would be about as successful volume wise as introducing model t ford slot cars and assuming the market will grow to absorb the required production numbers/investment.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Even today as technology grows smaller, I think you'd be hard pressed to fit a decent drive chain, and a decoder into an old-timer 4-4-0 (not to mention sound). For me, at least, DCC has become a prerequisite.

I think if you can't bet a decoder in your steamer you're not trying hard enough. Sound is a different story--so far.

You're even more right than you know! There's no question of "hard enough", I actually haven't tried at all - I have no interest in modeling that era. I was surmising this based on the old-timer locos I've seen and the smallest decoders I've work with for DCC conversions with major space limitations. I'm sure you're right that it can be done.

[TwinZephyr]

A major deterrent to modeling the late 19th century is a lack of any quality locomotives and a very limited supply of decent rolling stock. The other problem is this absurd "law" being promoted here that one is only supposed to model a time period which was experienced in-person.

[Anonymous]

We may be ahead of the curve here, as there really has not been a good running American operating on layouts. That may change soon, and Moguls and Consolidations will follow as well. As the availability of smaller foot print locomotives improves modellers will find this "Era" more attractive to pursue. The one thing working against this trend is the desire for that big engine, be it a Mountain or 2-10-2 or a Big Boy or a Cab Forward all of which pulls the potential modeller to a later era. As the market provides 1900's locomotives at reasonable prices and good operating characteristics we will have to see how much lure there is to return to the "days of yester year". "Build it and they will come" may well be the next frontier in the hobby.
Will

[Jetrock]

We could get into a chicken-and-egg debate here, but it seems that one of the major limitations on early-era modeling is fitting motors into the smaller bodies of older locomotives. British OO came about largely because motors of the era wouldn't fit into proper HO scale models of Brit steam, which was generally smaller than American steam. Similarly, aside from a few specialty items, mass-produced early steam never made an appearance because the motors were too big.

As a result, the "available base" of modeling supplies--structures, rolling stock and locomotives--is lacking when it comes to 19th Century models because the engines were too hard to power. Because there aren't decades' worth of old secondhand or back-stock models to choose from, modelers and model companies had no great impetus to pursue 19th Century railroading even after small can motors made the locos possible to model. And unless the 19th Century comes back into vogue in a big way, this status is unlikely to change.

There are other factors to consider, too: despite the delightful Pacific Coast Air Line's working link & pin system, most people don't want to model link-and-pin couplers.

[slotracer]

I would agree with the statement that there is not only very little of this equipment available, but much of what is made is pretty poor quality.

I disagree with there being some "law" being promoted here or anywhere. If you don't agree that's fine and dandy, but what I seem to read is either pretty neutral observations, reflections on surveys that have been done over time and some personal opinion on individual modelers preferences on what era they mnay or may not choose with some backup on why.

I didn't see anyone imposing unwritten rles or peer pressure that one does not or should not model that era or they are an idiot if they do type ideas. I did see allot of thought out explanations and observations. If you don't like what others have discussed on what they observe and want to spin it as "rules" to fit your agenda than I think you have the problem not others.

There are some niche interests that seem to get support but the numbers of enthusiasts and thus market power justifies production. Colorado narrow GAuge is one that has always drawn enough folks who spend to get product support, Traction modelers to sme degree also have enough numbers to have some better availability of product than pre 1900 stuff.

To think there is so little of this product because there is some unwritten law or peer pressure in the hobby is misguided. To think almost no manufacturers venture significantly into this untapped market due to some bias against it is ut of touch with the economic fundementals that make this country tick. If someone though the market was there, someone would be addressing it, there's a decent buck to be made and no one else is filling the need, someone would try it and if successful others would follow.

This isn't my law agaisnt the era, I have nothing against it, even though I personally have no interest in it at all. If there were enough folks out there to justify it, I'd wi***hem all the decent product in the world, and why not, just because something is being produced that I myself wouldn't buy, what effect good or bad would it have on me anyway? If someone wants to model something I have no interest in, why should I care either way, t has no effect on me, model away. Like others I think we have all observed that there is and always has been very little interest in the era for a number of good reasons stated and bringing out lots of good product won't likely change that very much.

[Anonymous]

I have to disagree about fitting a decent mechanism into them. If Dapol can motorise an N scale 0-4-2 tank loco (this thing is about 2 and a half inches long) and make it run well (it's unfazed by pretty much anything due to having all wheel pickup), there's no reason the same motor couldn't work in a HO 4-4-0. Trains of that era didn't tend to be long, so the mechanism wouldn't be under a lot of strain. They could also design it so the wheels will spin long before the motor overheats - the 0-4-2 mentioned will only handle three 4-axle passenger cars (a prototypical load) before slipping.

[fwright]

Perhaps I am repeating what others have already, so please bear with me a moment.

In the late '70s and early '80s my goal had been to build a 1920s era free-lance Oregon short line. So I have some equipment for that era. But earlier eras keep (kept) drawing me. My next goal was to build a layout that moved chronologically as the years went by, similar to the Utah Belt. Only, mine was to be from my free-lance prototype's inception, say about 1870. So my model railroad would advance 1 year every year, remaining 120 years behind - this was around 1990.

I never actually started the layout, and I learned that there is a huge difference between 1870 and 1900 in rolling stock, and that there is almost nothing available for the 1870 era. The Mantua General is about the only close-to-scale non-brass 1870 locomotive. Almost any new older era locomotives in HO are detailed and manufactured to appear as they did in later years - '20s or '30s usually - because it's a larger market. The Roundhouse and Labelle (and others) early era car kits usually scale out to or actually match turn-of-century equipment much better than 1870.

Given that I am now in my '50s, and my modeling years will probably not stretch another 50 or 60 years, I have decided to focus on turn-of -the century (no later than 1901), just prior to the standard-gauging of my free-lance narrow gauge. By keeping the scope of the layout quite small, I will be able to kitbash and obtain what I need the same way other minority groups do (S, Sn3, On3, HOn3). Unfortunately, early HOn3 is not catered to either. But there is decidedly more for turn of the century than 1870 in both HO standard and narrow gauge.

Assuming the polls are correct, there is little reason for anything to change. Unfortunately, the Roundhouse Old Timer kit line will probably never return except as RTR. It's just going to be part and parcel of modeling anything prior to WW1.

yours in old-timer land
Fred Wright

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twinzephyr

A major deterrent to modeling the late 19th century is a lack of any quality locomotives and a very limited supply of decent rolling stock. The other problem is this absurd "law" being promoted here that one is only supposed to model a time period which was experienced in-person.

Havent heard that law, or maybe I just wasnt listening.[;)]

I model 1947-57 narrow gauge industrial trams, all freelanced. All from before I was even born. Model what ever era interests YOU and dont listen to anyone else, any one telling you thats a law need to be whipped with a piece of flex-track[(-D]

[hminky]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright


I never actually started the layout, and I learned that there is a huge difference between 1870 and 1900 in rolling stock, and that there is almost nothing available for the 1870 era.

Ever since I saw Walt Disney's "Great Locomotive Chase" in 1956 I wanted to model the 1870's. Most of the old time equipment is really OO scale running on HO track. The internet opens the United Kingdom's world of OO scale to one's mailbox.
Now I am able to model the 1870's "standard gauge" in OO/HO. The locos become the right size and everything works. I am willing to compromise the gauge because it really isn't noticeable when operating.



An IHC 4-4-0 with an OO scale figure (Click image to enlarge )

I have a web article explaining the advantages of OO/HO at:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/why/

Thank you if you visit
Harold