Brass Locomotives

[GMTRacing]

I find that some of the unique locomotives I am interested in are only available in brass. My question is how do they run compared to modern mass produced plastic locomotives, and if I do end up with DCC, are they going to be convertible. i should mention that i am interested in seeing these run, not sit on a shelf appreciating in value. Thanks in advance, J.R.

[selector]

This is what I have understood from my reading here: some are wonderful, some need some work. The longer wheelbased steam locos, the ones with more than 6 drivers, will sometimes need longer curve radii than those of the plastic and pot metal kind.

Apparently the vast majority can be DCC'd relatively easily if you go through all of the necessary steps, such as assuring motor/frame isolation.

Some members retort to questions such as yours that you should consider building your own, or kitbashing what you need from another similar loco. I don't know if I'll live long enough to be able to develop that level of skill, but you might be okay..? [:D]

-Crandell

[GMTRacing]

Thanks Crandell. Most of the stuff that interests me is beyond my limited kit bashing jskills let alone scratch building. Some of the brass offerings are so old i worry that they won't run at all let alone well. I can't see paying all that money just to buy a shell and start over. Perhaps I just need to adjust my aspirations. J.R.

[Virginian]

I would suggest you pick a specific prototype brass model and then ask about it. Often there were several versions and/or importers and someone here may have some insight that could save you some trouble or $1000 plus. I used to have a lot of brass because, like you, the steam engines I wanted models of were only available in brass. And all of mine got painted, decalled, amd run. A lot of the post 1980 brass runs very well.
I am far from a DCC expert, but I don't see why isolating a motor would be that big a deal.

[GMTRacing]

Virginian,
Thanks. I am primarily interesred in the New Haven, and specifically the I-5 streamlined locomotive. I see from time to time brass ones on offer, but as you mentioned, they are very pricey and I want one to run, not look at. I'm going to the NHRHTA reunion tomorrow where it is unlikely I'll see any bargains, but before I even considered it, I wanted to know if a brass Loco will run. J.R.

[Don Gibson]

MANY brass engine's (dare I say most?) ran fair to poorly, since the emphasis was on look's. KATSUMI (KTM): Westside/ Balboa/ Max Gray; and Atlas Trading Co (PFM):/United - ran better, and Akane, Kumata (KMT) product's: Alco/Hallmark/++ ran poorer. The first Korean product's were poor runner's, including Key. They got much better.

Best to see them run, and ALL benefit from remotoring and regearing.

The last run of PFM had Can motor's and clockwork running - and sold FOR $800 - NEW! Those command premium prices today, as do Samhongsa's Articulated's (drool).

PROMBLEM WITH BRASS IS they made product's no one else had.
THE BENEFIT OF BRASS IS they hold their value. WHO need's a Hallmark Daylight $1200 engine when there's a Bachmann fo $69? A. The Hallmark will ALWAYS be worth $1200. The Bachmann $10. - if it run's.

EDIT: I don't want to hear from someone with a Bachmann Daylight engine extolling it's virtue's ... like "It run's better than anything I own". I was making a point.
I own 7 'Daylight's. 5 of which are brass, 2 are Bachmann. Obvously I am deranged.

[bwftex]

One thing to consider about brass is that even though some of the older stuff (mostly from the early 70's on back) did not run so well compared to today’s models they are generally more durable than the new plastic/die cast stuff and most are more easy to work on. You can replace the old motors with new cans and often this is all it takes to have them running great. If you must re-gear NWSL probably has the parts you can use. DCC should not be too much trouble though you will need to isolate the motor and hard wire your decoder. The plastic and die cast locomotives today are fantastic. Brass models are still better and will last longer. Bruce

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GMTRacing

I find that some of the unique locomotives I am interested in are only available in brass. My question is how do they run compared to modern mass produced plastic locomotives, and if I do end up with DCC, are they going to be convertible. i should mention that i am interested in seeing these run, not sit on a shelf appreciating in value. Thanks in advance, J.R.

It is an interesting question that really cannot be answered without exceptions to the rule. I agree with many of the comments that have been made and would like to offer some more comments based on my past and present brass models.

Most of the older brass models do not have the quality of the newer plastic models that run much better than almost anything made up to 1980 or so. But like I stated before, exceptions are the rule and any of the older Fuji, Toby, Sakura and some of the Tenshodo Crowns are still excellent runners or can be tuned to run with the best if you are handy with tuning gearboxes, replacing the open frame motors and installing softer springs to allow movement in the drivers. PFM inported from many builders and these were some PFM imported. I find most of the older United and KTM models are good models in general and the drivers are quartered well. They can be tuned to run very well, but the motor has to be replaced to use DCC. The older open frame motors draw a high level of current and make more electrical noise than you can image.

There are some models out there that are not worth the money unless you model that particular engine and cannot do without it. The buyer should beware of just any older model unless you can see it run and be confident it is quality model. For example, the Samhongsa built engines were among some of the best, but the early Samhonsa built models in 1975 to about 1980 were soldered together very poorly. Some of them did not run well, but some were better runners and you must research the particular model if you are trying to find out their quality.

Samhongsa ceased production of any models about a year ago and dropped the business totally, but their models imported by Key in general were among the very finest from 1984 to 2003. The brass market was just to small to devote personnel to the projects. Any of the later Key models were producted by Samhongsa and really are excelent in quality and running performance. Ajin builds for Overland and they had quality problems in the beginning. Since 1990, Overland really has imported some very highly detailed good running models. I have ommited many importers and builders because I am not happy with their products, but some are OK.

This forum is a good place to ask about a model and one of us might own one or know of someone that can give some review for your help.

Good luck and ask questions..

[rolleiman]

I would re-emphasize, be ready to tinker with brass.. Most of them come apart with 3 screws, 2 behind the cab and one in the pilot truck (if there is one).. Even the old PFMs with open frame motors can run very nicely. Especially the pittman motors. The key is to clean out all the old grease and get rid of any slop in the drive train.. A lot of them will have a rubber hose coupling between the motor and gear box that has become stiff and will, probably 99% of the time, be the culprit of noisy, poor operation. I've found that model airplane fuel line works pretty well as a replacement..

Since you already know what you are after, be sure it comes with the proper tender. SOME people would mix and match them and a lot being offered nowadays could be from widows (or widowers) who don't know the difference. Be careful too of the a-hole that sells the loco and tender seperately (I've seen them around). Unless it's painted properly it's best to get an unpainted model. Stripping them is a chore and a specialized service (if you have it done) and can get expensive for a repaint. Some brass, particularly Westside and Sunset came in boxes with Red foam. The foam bled red dye and set into the laquer finish of the locomitive so watch out for that. Lastly, be weary of anything before 1962 or so.. A lot of older brass (Gem and Akane come to mind) have deteriorated solder joints and as soon as you get it home, pieces will begin falling off or they will litterally fall apart in your hand (Gem 2-4-4-2 is how I know that).

If you have the opertunity to see it run or run it, do so in both directions. If it's been a shelf queen then it has probably never been broken in properly and is likely to be dry as a bone. Good for you because you may be able to barter down the price, but be prepared to take it apart. What you don't want to see is any wobble or hear any clicks. They could indicate a bad driver, out of quarter driver (easy fix) or worn side rods (steam engines).. You can purchase new drivers (last time I looked, greenway products offered them), you can have drivers replated, but you cannot purchase replacements for side rods. You'll have to make your own.. Just make sure everything is tight without any slop.

The warnings about early Overland/Ajin are true. I have an early GP35 that has an under frame drive (similar to the old Hobbytown) that doesn't run worth crap. My solution was to replace the drive with a Kato one and it took some doing.

I'm speaking of older brass steam here, they came with dummy front couplers and replacing them with operating couplers (kadee) can be a task. The tender coupler is pretty simple, just assemble the draft box of a #5 and screw it on. For the DCC minded, these locos also pick up power on one side of the loco and the other side is picked up on the tender. The connection between the two is via a friction fit link that was / is spotty at best as far as being reliable. Brass steam engines being made entirely of metal are also very picky about the track they run on. It HAS to be smooth. Pilot and trailing trucks can easily hit the cylinders or frame and cause short circuits. Just because your plastic 2-8-0 runs on your 18" radius track doesn't mean a brass one is going to.

Companies like PFM imported brass from the late 50s (I think) to the early 80s and several models had several runs. I mention this because the BOX can be an indicator of the age of the loco. So, if at all possible, make sure it comes with the original one. There's a lot more I could go into, some of it already covered in other posts.. If you find one you want, and need to ask, feel free.. A lot of us will have a Brown Book which is basically the bluebook of brass. The latest one I have is the 3rd edition and it covers most of the stuff made up to 1990 or so.

Not trying to scare you off, just inform..

Good luck
Jeff

[GMTRacing]

Gentlemen,
Thank you,thank you, thank you. I went to the train show at the reunion today armed with your replies and I can begin to see what you are talking about. Of course the new stuff all looks wonderful, but I now have an idea of what i want and a budget to set aside. I have printed this thread and will ask some hopefully more specific questions when I get closer to purchase. Again thank you, I am amazed at the information available here, and the readiness of you all to share it. J.R.

[Virginian]

My very first purchase was an N&W J in brass. Never regretted it, still have it, and it still runs perfectly.
A lot of brass needs tweaking, and articulateds could be tough, but I never had any brass engine (all Steam) that I could not get to run very well. As soon as aftermarket QSI or possibly some other DC compatible system is available I am going to add sound to that brass J as well. The tender is pre drilled so what the heck.