Revelation: Operating on a 4 x 8 layout--choose alternate route

[SpaceMouse]

Perhaps I designed a 4 x 8 in ignorance. Strike that. There's no doubt. I set the layout up for parking trains head-in now all my set-out moves involve run-arounds.

I put all my switches into one controll panel so operating either has to be a two person job, or you do a lot of walking abck and forth from one side of the layout to switch turnouts, to the other side to uncouple cars.

So all you newbees that get the urge to build a 4x8 layout, you will do better all the way around to make your layout 30" wide and go along the walls. You will be able to do so much more with the same space. (Add 30" walk around room to all sides of your 4x8 layout and you have a 9' x 13' space you are occupying. ) Plus it will be so much easier to operate you railroad.

I started this thread because it seems that the first layout people want to build is a 4x8 layout, I think they should be able to see the down sides.

Please add your observations.

[rrinker]

Or if you are dead set on a 4x8, run a divider down the middle at an angle, and set up 2 control panels, one on each side. Walkaround control is a must.

This is a 4x8 I came up with as an idea for a test track layout while I was planning the 'big' layout. We canned this idea and went with the 8x12 to allow large enough radius curves to run full length passenger cars, but I kept this design around since it was pretty fun to operate (in 3rd PlanIt's drive the train mode anyway). Run a line down the middle and seperate the sides, and it will apear twice as big.




--Randy

[Anonymous]

I actually have to get out of my super soft office chair and throw the switches when operating, I really don't mind as it gives the feel and takes up time to simulate a real train.

You didn't install electric turnouts? [:)]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dthurman

I actually have to get out of my super soft office chair and throw the switches when operating, I really don't mind as it gives the feel and takes up time to simulate a real train.

You didn't install electric turnouts? [:)]

Looking at Train City, notice the bridge and and notice that the control panel is on the close side of that bridge. Now imagine dropping cars where that red train is using your skewer.

[grayfox1119]

If you have tortoises to throw the turnouts, what is the need to walk around the backside of the 4x8?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

If you have tortoises to throw the turnouts, what is the need to walk around the backside of the 4x8?

Dropping the cars with skewers.

[Tracklayer]

HO 4' X 8' layout's do tend to waste space, and then you have to try and fill in areas that aren't used with scenery-which a friend of mine found out the hard way can get real expensive...
I'm an N scaler from way back, and at least tried to design my layout so that if I get tired of it, can change the track and so forth around without a lot of trouble.

Tracklayer

[oleirish]

I agree with Chip ,if you have the room do an around the wall 30" wide lay out,Thats the way to go![^][:)]When my bouther-in-law leaves again I'll go back to an around the wall,Right now my 42"X10' is just fine.[:)][2c]
JIM

[Train 284]

I like the track plan Randy!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train 284

I like the track plan Randy!

This thread is linked to a resources for Newbees. Most beginners think in terms of a 4x8 layout and end up spending a lot of money on a dead end.

You guys are not helping. Here I am trying to point out the downsides of island type 4x8s and the post here are mostly encouraging these layout. In reality, they are not as efficient as a similar space consuming shelf layout.

[rrinker]

You're right, they aren't as space-efficient as a more linear design. But at the same time, you have to start soewhere. The newcomer isn't going to have any idea about operation and will quickly become bored with running a train back and forth over their space efficient shelf layout. I kind of regret the removal of all the modified track plans from the latest edition of Track Plannign for Realistic Operation - Armstrong showed that you can make some minor but critical changes to those typical Atlas plan book layouts (many of which he designed in the first place!) and achieve completely realistic operation PLUS round and round for when yo want to sit back and watch the train cruise by.
I think it's all a logical progresion. A 4x8 is EASY and quick. Then you discover operation, and tricks like view blocks and proper track planning to allow for operation on the 4x8. Then it dawns on you, you can use the same amount of wood but get a much greater running area if you stretch it out. Next thing you know, you're buying a bigger house to get a bigger basement.

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

Maybe, I'm an exception. But I got bored running in circles long before I made much progress in the layout. I have to admit, structures helped, but even a decent 4x8 is limited, and I think more limited than, say, a 9x13 dogbone with industrial sidings.

I wish I had chosen better.

[Anonymous]

Another thing to consider: a lot of people are anti-dogbone, because the track comes back into the scene it just left, and you have to "pretend" it didn't, just as you have to pretend on a 4x8 that a circle makes sense.

Lots of pretending in MRR'ing, you just have to figure out which type of pretending you prefer, I guess...

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

Another thing to consider: a lot of people are anti-dogbone, because the track comes back into the scene it just left, and you have to "pretend" it didn't, just as you have to pretend on a 4x8 that a circle makes sense.

Lots of pretending in MRR'ing, you just have to figure out which type of pretending you prefer, I guess...

If it was me, and I am planning this one, it would be an 13 foot interchange yard with industries along the edges and a staging areas on each return. But given the choice between constantly running around from one side of an island to the other to perform simple switching with the 4x8 and standing in the center of a U beiing able to reach everything, I'll choose the U.

[Anonymous]

I would choose a U over a 4 x 8 also.

Then when nobody was looking, I would build a removable "bridge" to bridge the gap accross the U for continuous running when the mood strikes.

Then when all the die hard operations types came over, I'd hide the bridge and get a stupified look on my face and say, "what continous running?"

[hminky]

It is better to build a 4x8 and discover the error of your ways. A large layout that doesn't work becomes a rather elegant spider farm. A lot of operation can take place on a 4x8, I have built several for operations. I have learned a lot on my latest 4x8. It is my first layout with real scenery. I chronicle the trials and tribulations at:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/



Just a thought
Harold

[joeyegarner]

Not sure if I'm on key here. I have a small room thats 9X9 and with the trains running around about a 24 to 30 in shelf. There are some sidings on the inside loop and a small yard on the outside. This leaves me with the one thing I like about my railroad, just watching them run but it also gives me some switching operations in the yard and some dead end sidings for industries. So this way I get " in my oppinion" the best of both worlds. 've been working with this for 6 years on and off and haven't gotten too bored. But now I'm planning to build another based on some of the same theories. The new one will be approx 10X12. Just my two cents. Joey

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by hminky

It is better to build a 4x8 and discover the error of your ways. A large layout that doesn't work becomes a rather elegant spider farm. A lot of operation can take place on a 4x8, I have built several for operations. I have learned a lot on my latest 4x8. It is my first layout with real scenery. I chronicle the trials and tribulations at:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/



Just a thought
Harold

Harold, your layout is about as simple yet sophisticated as a 4x8 can get. I admit that.

There is a certain truth to saying that you get a 4x8 and learn what you want from it. I certainly did learn from my 4x8. And if I did it over again, and it was jut for me, I would have a much better 4x8. But I have a grand invested in this one and I will end up junking it because of the limitations of the 4x8 format.

If I built a 9 x 13 U shape, I would probably spend more time reworking sections improving it as I go, because the possibilities are less limited. I may still end up junking it, but I can take it a lot farther.

[Don Gibson]

I think Chipmouse's point is 'since a 4X8 takes up 9'X13' of floor, why not construct a 9X13 in the first place, pushed against a wall, and operate with everything within reach from the center?

Chip I'll see your 9X13 and raise you to a 10X16 (using 3' per side for walkaround )and only 4 pieces of ply. (Ed. note) - if one doesn't have money - or imagination - for a 4 pieces of ply railroad, and still want's a 4X8 - GO 'N' guage.

A 4-BOARD 10'X16' RR USING THE SAME FLOOR SPACE AS A 4'X8'. by pushing into a corner , with access from the inside.

Make board (I) a 3'X8' by 2 ripping 2-6"X8' pieces off . Cut those in half (6"X48")
Cut board (II) in half making 2-4X4's for end's.
Build framework support for 16'X10'. Push into a corner

Add a 6" piece's to front or back of 4X4's and you can have 44"r. curves. Add 12" and you can have up to 58"r.
CUT access holes in 4X4s (2'X3'?).

NOW for the back section. Simplicity reign's.

Board (III) two more 4X4's for corners, as above.
Board (IV) 8' x 1.5' (I like18"width), and 2- 2' x 1.5' side extention's..

You now have room for trackside industries, plus matching ply to extend the layout in any direction you choose.
FINAL:Trim corner's off to make smooth transition from 4' board to 3' and 1.5' board's.

You now have a 3X8 center section yard with 4' end's allowing 44"radius curves (90 degrees), and an 8' X 1.5' back section with everything reachable from the inside.
BEST of all, it can be re-designed for arround the room increasing distance between coner's.

CAVEAT'S:
This is for those wishing for MORE RAILROAD in the SAME space ... wanting 4 times the fun, using the same limitation of skill's - also with 4 times the amount of wood, and time spent.. Those claiming "they have only enough room for a 4 X 8 will now need to find a new reason.

[Anonymous]

Chip - a grand? But where is that money?

Hopefully, the majority is in rolling stock, control system, and models.

Probably a small portion of that is in benchwork.

There may be a good chunk invested in track & turnouts, which may be salvagable.

With any luck, you're only scrapping a couple hundred bucks for benchwork - I can't imagine benchwork for a 4 x 8 costs much more than $100-$200.

Oh, of course, there's scenery items. If you use real dirt, you could save big $$$ on that too.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

I think Chipmouse's point is 'since a 4X8 takes up 9'X13' of floor, why not construct a 9X13 in the first place, pushed against a wall, and operate with everythin within reach from the center?

Chip I'll see your 9X13 and raise you to a 10X16 with 3' per side for walkaround (min. for 2 people) and using 2 pieces of ply.
CUT

Thanks Don

[scubaterry]

I think their are some advantages of starting with a 4 X 8? My personal expierience was building a 4 X 8 for my first layout because it took very little knowledge to get some track down. I knew very litttle to nothing of what I was doing. A 4 X 8 was handy, fairlyl inexpensive compared t an around the room. I didn't have to cut any plywood. I ended up scrapping it after a year but I learned a great deal in the mean time. It was kind of a testing layout for me. I learned how to lay flextrack, t/o, scenery, water, bridges etc etc. And one of the biggest benefits for me was I found out that their is more to running trains than just going roundy roundy. My new layout is around the room. It is a double main roundy roundy BUT I have 28 industry sidings for switching. I love to run my trains on the mains and listen to the loco sounds as I switch my hiney off. So for me, starting with a 4 X 8 was a learning expierience that I do not regret and as a result I think my current layout is a much better layout because of it. I just wanted to add that from the very beginning of the 4 X 8 construction I knew that it was a learning expierience and that it was temporary. A road I felt I had to go down to get to where I wanted to go.
Terry

[grayfox1119]

I am building an around the room 4x8 layout. This will be one big circle, but far less boring than a single 4x8 board. And as far as the room needed around the table, that is purely a matter of the size of the people who need to get around it. This 10 1/2' X 18' room is all that I will ever more than likely have at my home to work with, so I want maximum layout room. It will take time to build all the scenery of course, but when one is retired, the winters can be long in New England.
There is no "right" answer for everyone, no one size fits all. I really feel that if you have the room, 4x8 is the right way to go for your first layout because it is very quick and easy to set up and get going. Then, in phase 2, after you have learned a few thricks, and have a better handle on what you want to do, you can build shelf layout/s, islands, extensions of the 4x8, 30" x (x), whatever you have room for.
For me, I cannot stand for seeing trains run back and forth on a 24 or 30" wide board. There is hardly enough room for scenery after you run a few tracks, and what kind of radius are you going to have on a 30" wide board? Can you run a bigboy on this other than straightlining? Start with a 4x8 and go from there. If you want 24", then you can cut your 4x8 layout down the length and you have 16 feet of running length if that is what pleases you, and you have not wasted any plywood.

[SpaceMouse]

Don, can you post a picture of that? Sounds fun.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Don, can you post a picture of that? Sounds fun.

Chipper:

Regrettably I cannot. It was my old basement layout.. Essentially, it was four semi-triangular corner sections separated by a 3' wide) yard section and 1.5' wide side's and back section's.

The yard was double ended, the original track plan was double track main. I added an over / under on the back run which made it a longer, folded loop. The regular radii was 46" except for the over / under segment which was 36"r. I'm a passenger nut and have all 80' - 85' car's.

The sequence was leaving the yard on the 'inner' main, crossing under the 'outer main and becoming the new outer main, bypassing the yard - then going over the old inner main (and becoming it) into the other end of the yard. One end of the yard became INBOUND. The other OUTBOUND.

I had strategically located trackside industries for freight operations wheras the Passenger equipment just ran around and around. That's why I converted the dual main to a twice around loop. Intalling 2 new single Crossover's
converted it back to dual main

The whole RR was 16' X 12' (Large basement) for my half - which was less than that required for a 'ping pong' table in the other half. It - like a 4 X 8 -requires more space around it, to play.

[Anonymous]

I am currently assembling a 4 x 8 layout with full knowledge that this is not my ultimate layout. What I am doing with it is building it to be very lightweight with folding legs. That way I can fold it up, put it in the back of my truck and take it with me when I want to use it somewhere other than at home. It is also a much quicker way to have something to run my trains on, since I haven't yet started on the layout I plan to build in my shed (8x16). That one will be an around the wall layout with a duckunder or bridge because I like continuous runs.

In general, I agree with what Chip has posted for the very reasons he cites. In practice, though, a 4 x 8 can be practical if it's one that has to be put away when the operator is through with his session. Many people don't have a permanent place that is 9 x 13 to dedicate solely to model railroading, so they will build a 4 x 8 to use from time to time. I've seen more than one suspended from the ceiling of a garage (which can be lowered after backing the cars out). As for track plans, I think Randy has the right idea with something that can work reasonably well on a 4 x 8. It allows for some switching as well as some continuous running, so at least two trains can run simultaneously.

-Joe

[grandeman]

4x8 is a learning process we all go thru. We started with one, ran it awhile, tore out the track and scenery and made it a 4x14. That's still the basis of our town today. Had LGM not protested, I'd have scrapped the whole thing when we added on last time (when we moved). Right now it's 10x14 and you sit in the middle and trains run around you. The next one will be around the walls with a peninsula and, very possibly, two levels. I'm beginning to see it in my mind. I'm serious, seeing that mental image of it is half way there for me. We'll wait a while and run the current RR until LGM is ready though. As for me, I think I can build something to be proud of now. I've had some practice, as you can see from the above. In that since, the 4x8 was a good thing.

[Jetrock]

Ahhh, you folks and your luxurious 24-30" deep railroads! Maybe I'm just lazy but I like my 12" deep shelf layout. It is 2-3 feet deep in spots but generally I like a layout that hugs the wall and nothing is more than 24" from my hands at any point.

How broad of curves can you have with a 30" deep layout? Assuming that you keep your track no closer than 2" from either edge of the layout, 68" radius is possible--running from the back edge of the 30" at the start of a curve (28" depth) all the way out to 40" from the edge of the corner (about 42" from the corner of the shelf to the corner of the room) and back.

Me, I like my shelf layout and like the fact that the ratio of track to non-track on my layout is pretty high--the focus is on the trains, where I like it, although I'm not really super operations guy. But my dad's layout is a 5x10 foot double loop with the emphasis on scenery, big sweepy curves, and watching the trains go round and round. This is his third layout, and his third multi-level round-and-round...he knows what he likes!

Not that round and round is all bad--when I build my trolley layout, it will be round-and-round because, well, that's what trolleys do! With frequent stops, of course!

[grandeman]

Dang it, Space! This thread's got me thinking about building again! Let's see, I think I could get a two level, 15x22x10 to fit... A crossover track under the steps could even connect it for a complete run without an endloop on each side. 30" minimum radius curves, long winding tracks, trestles over raging western rivers, fully signalled... The dreaming is half the fun.

[grayfox1119]

Hey, and we can drill a hole through the basement wall, and in the good weather run the trains through the tunnel to the outside where we have what guys??????? UNLIMITED space!! You can make your layout as big as you want!!