Refelection on our hobby and art, rather long, apologies in advance.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dommegr

Chip, creating a context for operations is always going to be in the eye of the person creating the context and running those operations.

Look at Pelle Soeberg's layout. His layout actually takes you to a place in Southern California. That's right for him and what he wanted to accomplish on his layout and while the results are nothing short of spectacular, how does it differ from the guy who builds a simple oval and puts nothing but a single tree and an ashtray in the middle of it? While the end results visually are very different, the operation of the trains remains the same.

Greg

The difference is in the integrety f the artist.

Now what I mean by this has nothing to do with skill level, and it is entirely possible that the guy with the ashtray and Soeberg have the same level of integrity. So what do I mean by integrity?

Integrity in this sense is manifesting the greatest level of creative expression that he is capable of, which could be limited either by vision or abilities. This level of integrity is what distiguishes the artist from the model railroad builder. Their motives may be at cross purposes, but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

This is not to say that an operator has no artistic integrety, just that his interests may lie in another direction. And again, you can do both. Some people believe that there two types of model railroaders, operators scenery people. I'm not one of them.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

Yall are usin WAY too much brains. Go run your trains and have fun.

Every once in a while I have to take my brains out and blow the dust out of them. Now, how about them Steelers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

GC,

I re-read your commentary and I have a comment. I too came to the hobby not so much from the standpoint of fascination with trains (which I have been developing) but from the standpoint as developing a hobby that 1) I can share with my son. 2) Allows creative expression.

When we take Model Railroading to an art form, and I'm not saying we shouldn't by the way, a shift occurs. A visual artist paints so that people can see their work. A writer writes for others and an actor performs for others. Rare indeed it the artist that isn't looking for accolades. It is what drives us as artists forward to find new and exciting frontiers in art.

So when we create our art in the form of a basement empire we are by default limiting our audience to people we can drag down or viewers of the Photo Funs.

With Model Railroading, then we have to grow as artists to create for ourselves. Yes, this is different from the modelers that "only do it for themselves" and do not push for creative excellence. We have to build it, and know that unlike the Cosner movie, no one will come. Unless, of course, you build in a high level of operational ability, and get on a circuit or form you own operational team.

This is where John Allen excelled, and where Malcolm Furlow falls short. Obviously, Furlow is the artist (and artist in profession) that has no operational sessions, whereas Allen delighted in sharing his creation with operators and the rest of the world through networking, photos and articles. Furlow then, would have to have evolved to the point of excellence for himself alone to create such a fantastic layout so far removed from civilization.

So to go the Allen you need both the artistic skills and patience, and you need the working knowledge of both what a railroad does and a sense of what makes "playing with trains" fun. I get satisfaction from building a building, weathering it and creating a scene, but it does not compare to the fun of having my son run his train to the station, tell his passengers to get off, then drive them to the bridge, stop and tell them to view the sights of Train City.

To make everything work, you need to create a mini-universe where every bush, rock building and detail has a purpose. Every figure is a person with a role to play. And every industry is linked to the "universe" and beyond through a commerce system.

A large task to accomplish.

Chip,
Well said my friend, some excellant insight and points there yourself. (ah my what a fine mutual admiration society we have going here [;)][(-D]) I see your point on doing it for ourselves and yes where to some extent all artists do have a market/audiance, I think that the most fufilling art, hoby or craft is done for oneself and ones own sense of personal accomplishment and fufillment of ones own personal desire or vision.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

Dave,

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

To me artistic expression is manifestation of a creative vision not a mechanical process. I suppose you could relate it to the choreographing of a dance. But I'm not sure many take it to that level.

Chip,

Man, I just knew that someone would call me on that! [(-D][(-D] My wife would say that my view on "art" is probably due to some childhood trauma or perhaps because my undergrad degree is in mechanical engineering. I think it is my total inability to make realistic looking scenery that has forced me to see "art" in other facets of this hobby! [:-^][:D]

I agree with you that "artistic expression is the manifestation of a creative vision." But I see the Wright Flyer, the first internal combustion engine and the Brooklyn Bridge as creative visions brought to life, and thus art. (Heck, I can see art in benchwork and a handlayed turnout.) Art, to me, evokes an emotional response. Yes, a fully sceniced layout does evoke such as response, and thus is art, but to me it is not a "completed" work until the trains are moving. If the creative vision is one of a miniature world with trains moving passengers and goods from place to place, can the manifestation of this vision be complete without the trains moving and operating?

I do not see the operations of our trains as a mechanical process. To me, a mechanical process is "if you do A to B, then the result is C." Same thing, everytime. Put a boxcar on the top of a grade, let go and it will roll down hill (unless I've worked on the trucks). Part of the art in constructing a layout is to get the observer to see a realistic world. Operations is the same. The observer sees bits of metal and plastic (and electrons) as a real train, moving real cargo to real customer. Yes, there are those that will say that "no it's not art, it is the result of research and is simply copying the full size to the miniature" but isn't that what we do when we recreate, say, Raton Pass, or Chicago's Dearborn Station?

Speaking of mechanical processes not being art, is a beautiful painting done using a paint by number kit art? Or is it a mechanical process ("put red paint on the "13", blue paint on the "12's"")? Is photography an art? Or is it a mechanical process (if I set up the camera the same as Ansel Adams I'll get the same result)? I'm sure these two have the potential of being debated until the cows come home!

Of course, I guess, as in lots of things, art is in the eyes of the beholder!

Dave

P.S. I admitted to being a train dweeb on another thread, I guess I've just admitted to being an engineering geek here![:)][:)][:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

Brakie,

I can certainly respect your position, but I must say nothing sounds more artfull to me than the expression "poetry in motion" [:D]. I would disagree a bit in that I think art does require a great deal of knowledge at least of techinque at the minimun.[;)]
Thanks for the input though its all great stuff, hearing from the base of opinions and wisdom we have available to us here on our forums.

Peace.
Coyote

[selector]

Chip, I understand your reply to Grandpa C, and your use, specifically, of the word 'integrity.' I would have used the word "complete" to describe the former modeller, Allen, and, in the Zen of our hobby, that word is an apt demarcator, as well as metaphor for our mutual acknowledgement that a layout is never.... In that sense, few modelers are complete.

[tatans]

Brakie; Poetry IS art. I Paint watercolors, mostly old houses, I was at a large art show with my paintings and noticed a woman staring at a painting of an old house, she stared for a long time as I approached her she was crying, she said the painting was exactly like her Grandmothers house and she said she was walking through the house, room by room and could actually smell the wonderful smells from the house, I knew I had painted a winner---art doesn't move???? tell her that ! By the way this is a wonderful forum.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

Dave,

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

To me artistic expression is manifestation of a creative vision not a mechanical process. I suppose you could relate it to the choreographing of a dance. But I'm not sure many take it to that level.

Chip,

Man, I just knew that someone would call me on that! [(-D][(-D] My wife would say that my view on "art" is probably due to some childhood trauma or perhaps because my undergrad degree is in mechanical engineering. I agree with you that "artistic expression is the manifestation of a creative vision." But I see the Wright Flyer, the first internal combustion engine and the Brooklyn Bridge as creative visions brought to life, and thus art. (Heck, I can see art in benchwork and a handlayed turnout.) Art, to me, evokes an emotional response. Yes, a fully sceniced layout does evoke such as response, and thus is art, but to me it is not a "completed" work until the trains are moving. If the creative vision is one of a miniature world with trains moving passengers and goods from place to place, can the manifestation of this vision be complete without the trains moving and operating?

I do not see the operations of our trains as a mechanical process. To me, a mechanical process is "if you do A to B, then the result is C." Same thing, everytime. Put a boxcar on the top of a grade, let go and it will roll down hill (unless I've worked on the trucks). Part of the art in constructing a layout is to get the observer to see a realistic world. Operations is the same. The observer sees bits of metal and plastic (and electrons) as a real train, moving real cargo to real customer. Yes, there are those that will say that "no it's not art, it is the result of research and is simply copying the full size to the miniature" but isn't that what we do when we recreate, say, Raton Pass, or Chicago's Dearborn Station?

Speaking of mechanical processes not being art, is a beautiful painting done using a paint by number kit art? Or is it a mechanical process ("put red paint on the "13", blue paint on the "12's"")? Is photography an art? Or is it a mechanical process (if I set up the camera the same as Ansel Adams I'll get the same result)? I'm sure these two have the potential of being debated until the cows come home!

Of course, I guess, as in lots of things, art is in the eyes of the beholder!

Dave

P.S. I admitted to being a train dweeb on another thread, I guess I've just admitted to being an engineering geek here![:)][:)][:)]

I don't think we disagree here.

[davekelly]

Chip,

How can we disagree? We both love this hobby!! That's what is the most important thing!

Dave

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote
Chip,
Well said my friend, some excellant insight and points there yourself. (ah my what a fine mutual admiration society we have going here [;)][(-D]) I see your point on doing it for ourselves and yes where to some extent all artists do have a market/audiance, I think that the most fufilling art, hoby or craft is done for oneself and ones own sense of personal accomplishment and fufillment of ones own personal desire or vision.

I think the more artistic you are, the harder it is to acheive the state of just doing it for oneself. Art begs for an audience as well as the artists needing accolades. It is the sole reason we have such a popular Photo Fun post.

[howmus]

Very,very, interesting thread. Especially if you are a bit of an old philosopher! Art is not one thing but many. "Art doesn't move"? Ballet is an art last time I checked. Cinema is an art form. Animation is an art form. Music is an Art that involves moving (as in movement) a theme from one point in time to another. The definition most often used today for music is, "organized sound". Sound by it's nature has to unfold over time. I see nothing in model railroading that does not involve the arts at least at some level. That includes operations (aka choreography as in ballet). My sister, the artist and Art teacher, loves my RR layout and considers it some of the best example of artisic expression she has seen. A level of skill is inherent in all the arts. My sister had to learn to use a welder in college in order to pass a sculpture course. And the list could go on, and on. There is no fine line that seperates an art from the rest of life. I certainly see my MR as an artistic expression of who I am.

grandpacoyote, thanks for a wonderfully insightful and thoughtful thread!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

Very,very, interesting thread. Especially if you are a bit of an old philosopher! Art is not one thing but many. "Art doesn't move"? Ballet is an art last time I checked. Cinema is an art form. Animation is an art form. Music is an Art that involves moving (as in movement) a theme from one point in time to another. The definition most often used today for music is, "organized sound". Sound by it's nature has to unfold over time. I see nothing in model railroading that does not involve the arts at least at some level. That includes operations (aka choreography as in ballet). My sister, the artist and Art teacher, loves my RR layout and considers it some of the best example of artisic expression she has seen. A level of skill is inherent in all the arts. My sister had to learn to use a welder in college in order to pass a sculpture course. And the list could go on, and on. There is no fine line that seperates an art from the rest of life. I certainly see my MR as an artistic expression of who I am.

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

To me the distiction ast to whether your layout is art is whether you stay true to your vision and abilities or whether you have a low threshold of goodnuff.

[robengland]

Frank Ellison was professionally involved in theatre I think. he certainly considered train operations as art. His schedules were deliberately choreographed for the visual impact of the result.

Now if i spend more time bildin' and less time filosofizin' I might get to a point where I can think about that kind of thing.

But I can't resist....

Relating to several of the people on this thread, I came to MR from the attraction of the hobby not the attraction of trains, though that has come with time. And I come from an engineer's perspective of art. I can see the art in a 747 or a bridge. Or an NZR Ja class 4-8-2.

MR is much like sculpture: kinetic sculpture of course. Or perhaps the better analogy is Coyote's (and Ellison's): theatre. There are lots of basic technical skills you need and lots of grunt work needs to be done to get the artistic result. MR is right at the extreme end of the scale of the technology and skills (and time and patience) you need to apply to get the artistic result. For me, that's much of the appeal.

For what it's worth, here's a philosophy of MR that I have posted here before but I think it fits:

The South Pacific Lines seeks to be:
Reliable
This is the foundation principle. SPL needs to work flawlessly, or as close as we can get. “Like a Swiss watch”. Operating is no fun if things go wrong, nor is just showing off our work to visitors. I have no patience for things that don’t work. Personally, getting things smooth does not give me great pleasure for its own sake, but failing to do so destroys the pleasure I get from the next principles:
Intricate
The purist simplicity of, for example, David Barrow’s recent work is interesting, but it does not attract me. Except where it makes reliability unobtainable, the SPL will showcase intricate systems like signalling and car forwarding operations, and intricate lighting and scenic super-detailing.
Representational
If we are ever to finish SPL, we must limit the Intricacy principle with a “good enough” principle. The SPL is allowed to be representational rather than realistic where it suits us. Rolling stock does not have to be super detailed, some of the trees will not bear close examination, plastic building kits are OK.
Believable
Representational is OK, so long as the overall effect is believable. One thing we do not seek is to be prototypical: the SPL exists in a mythical parallel universe, as can be seen from the scene-setting scenario. We can do anything we want: in effect there is no prototype. We are modelling American railroading set down in 1970s New Zealand. The result must be believable: it could have happened that way; given the scenario, it might have looked like that.
Clever
The elegance of a well-thought-out solution; the use of good research; the application of knowledge; great engineering; cool ideas. These are all things that make a model railroad attractive or admirable to me
Beautiful
The SPL should be attractive or admirable to all who see it. I believe that in essence model railroading is an art form as much as it is a toy. It is a means of self-expression for me. It is a kinetic sculpture that is also great to play with. Like all art, it needs form, balance, skill and theme.

You will not agree with all my principles but it is good to come up with your own to keep you on track. Chip, or Coyote, you might call out "Artistic" specifically as a principle. Chip would have "Appealing for my son" in there as a basic principle. [I don't because I built him his own railroad - a thread on that coming soon.

Last comment: absolutely I am "playing with trains". I do it for fun, for escape, as much as for expression. There is no shame in playing: more grownups should do it.

[SpaceMouse]

Rob,

I play with trains all the time. Going to play tonight at the club. But first I have to write train orders for three passenger trains. Should I put little squiggly lines on them and make them artistic?

[robengland]

It's like arranging a towel on a chair or putting a cow in alcohol or splashing paint on a canvas: the ACT of writing the train orders is your artistic expression. It's not the resulting order, its the way you write it. The train order becomes an existentialist expression of the fundamental cosmic truth of time versus substance. A pithy yet somehow profound examination of the inner expression of an outer quest for symmetry and perfection in all things mundane. Through the breathtaking simplicity of pencil on paper you break through to a new perspective on the dilemma of blah blah blah blah

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

It's like arranging a towel on a chair or putting a cow in alcohol or splashing paint on a canvas: the ACT of writing the train orders is your artistic expression. It's not the resulting order, its the way you write it. The train order becomes an existentialist expression of the fundamental cosmic truth of time versus substance. A pithy yet somehow profound examination of the inner expression of an outer quest for symmetry and perfection in all things mundane. Through the breathtaking simplicity of pencil on paper you break through to a new perspective on the dilemma of blah blah blah blah

[bow][bow][bow][:D][:D][:D][bow][bow][bow]

[Anonymous]

D... interesting thread guys !

I, FWIW, see Art as a form of human expression where the medium, be it image, sound, or whatever, is given more emphasize than the message itself (must be the french speaking here :-)

My point is the artist doesn't (shouldn't ?) say : 'hey folks, look at WHAT I'am saying' but rather 'hey, look HOW I said (figured) this or that'
This leads me to the other point I find important in Art, and modelling is included, IMHO : it should make people feel good or, at least, better

We all know that our RR don't want to show misery, death, etc...
They may evoke these accessorily (depression era layouts, war time ops), but seldom focuse on them, instead they show that life, and thus hope, keeps going.

I find the most moving paintings or movies about war and other catastrophes, to be those which don't directly throw blood and guts in your face, but rather evoke the small candle ligth that keeps on burning amid much anger and confusion
RR modelling, with its simple vignettes, modest pace, everyday life images conveys the same kind of idea, in my humble opinion.

An other reason why modelling is a form of Art to me is that it tries to represent the beauty of creation, and the world is really a piece of Art, AFAIC.

My other rationale is that RR modeling makes people to know better each others.
I found out the US were a country and culture that deserved attention, by learning (this is a ongoing process) their RR History, which leaded me to study their 'general' History.

This is how I found out that this country was really BUILT, often amid harsh difficulties, not GIVEN to, along with air conditioned cars, jet aircrafts, satelite broadcasting,etc...

As far as I know, Art is something that can make people live better themselves and together, and it is exactly what RR modelling, in its modest role, does, according to me :-)

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

Chip, I guess I was refering to Brakie's statement. And I think we would both agree that "Art" does require a great deal of knowlege! If my "hobby" was painting still lifes, I would be considered an "artist" (at least if I was any good at it). If my "hobby" was acting in local theater, I might be considered an "artist". If I sing in church, I am considered an "artist", but if my hobby is creating a model railroad, I'm "playing" with trains. I was trying to show a broad view of what the arts are. At least as a professional musician, that has become my view.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

Chip, I guess I was refering to Brakie's statement. And I think we would both agree that "Art" does require a great deal of knowlege! If my "hobby" was painting still lifes, I would be considered an "artist" (at least if I was any good at it). If my "hobby" was acting in local theater, I might be considered an "artist". If I sing in church, I am considered an "artist", but if my hobby is creating a model railroad, I'm "playing" with trains. I was trying to show a broad view of what the arts are. At least as a professional musician, that has become my view.

Can I take it that what you are saying in your two posts is that while MR is not a recognized as one of the "arts", it can still be an artistic expression. As a side though, I almost entered a diorama in a local art show. My wife, who is the president of the local art association, and has an MFA from UCLA, had no problem with the submission. (I just didn't , Git er done.)

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

Chip, I guess I was refering to Brakie's statement. And I think we would both agree that "Art" does require a great deal of knowlege! If my "hobby" was painting still lifes, I would be considered an "artist" (at least if I was any good at it). If my "hobby" was acting in local theater, I might be considered an "artist". If I sing in church, I am considered an "artist", but if my hobby is creating a model railroad, I'm "playing" with trains. I was trying to show a broad view of what the arts are. At least as a professional musician, that has become my view.

Can I take it that what you are saying in your two posts is that while MR is not a recognized as one of the "arts", it can still be an artistic expression. As a side though, I almost entered a diorama in a local art show. My wife, who is the president of the local art association, and has an MFA from UCLA, had no problem with the submission. (I just didn't , Git er done.)

Yep! Most people who are outside the hobby woudn't list it as an art. Most people who know the hobby and what it entails certainly would. Too bad you didn't get the diorama done for the show I bet it would have been the hit! [:D]

[conford]

What an interesting post. It is certainly thought provoking, and I will try to summarize my thoughts, probably in fragments!

Firstly:"it is a challenge to find the Inner Expression; that process by which the artist takes an inner vision that belongs only to him or her and brings it out of the inner world into the outer world."

As Coyote points out, a good layout tells a story. This story often starts off: "once upon a time in a land far away..." What does this imply about the story we try to tell? That setting in time and place are essential to understanding where the story goes.

As someone who came to the hobby through a lifelong love of trains, my layout is about trains. In my dreams I sometimes return to the land of steam engines -- there they go again -- although they were mostly gone by the time I was 5. At some point I either grasped or understood that I wanted to model the setting of my teen years, Grand Rapids Michigan. I was lucky to live in interesting times, and most anyplace with some track will do for a setting, as long as there is enough track to tell the story.

If you have not had an "anchor" experience -- I just knew where my model railroad would be set -- I suggest that you consider first the place you want to model (what railroads ran there, what is the scenery like, what are the buildings like) and then find an interesting era. Or maybe you want to pick a railroad and work out from there. You have to fit your railroad into the space you have, but consider the recently cited Robert Smaus layout -- he is fitting LA into a garage!

THe stage is a geat analogy for what Model Railroading is about. I see my children playing with the trains and making up their own stories. Or conducting their own experiments. Some people emphasize one aspect of model railroading, like scenery, while others may emphasize another, such as model making or operation. Thus, different analogies may be suitable for different people. As I think of the MRR Stage, it helps me understand the next steps I will take as I prepare to have an operating railroad. It also prompts me to ask who is the audience for our "play"?

The responses to this thread have often been thoughtful, and the suggestion for a book --OK, maybe a pamphlet -- is interesting. Is there a "unified theory of Model Railroading"? I doubt it. There are many ways to think about the hobby, and I have enjoyed this discussion so far.

Thanks for a great thread starter, Coyote!

Regards
conford

[tatans]

Why did I start model railroading? hmmmmm. I grew up in a big railway town,and remember an HO display in a dry cleaners window at Christmas time, waiting 25 minutes for a bus at 35 below it was a real treat, my family could never afford to buy me a train set so I figured if I ever get a few bucks together I'll try it, 50 years later here I am buying tons of used stuff from the rich guys who sell it to buy more new stuff (thanks guys). Why do I do it? It's a lot of fun ! ! and it keeps me sane, and keeps the creative juices flowing plus meeting some great people along the way (along with a few strange ones) I do feel sorry for people that have no interest in anything, they are not very interesting people as you can imagine, ( I have some friends my age who see life through single malt scotch coloured glasses) I guess you could call it art in breaking down all the components, I tend only to refer to it as a lot of fun and very recreational therapy, if you want to call it art, O.K. by me. I also refer to myself as a watercolour painter, if other people want to call me an artist, that's fine too. As you can see this forum has created a lot of intelligent responses.

[MisterBeasley]

Let's return to the stage for a reprise of Coyote's original premise. One of the great reasons for the immortality of Shakespeare's plays is the sparseness of the stage directions and settings, often limited to the little more than the entrances and exits of the "poor players who strut and fret their hour upon the stage." While some of the vocabulary has been obscured by time, the plays have withstood its ravages by their language alone. Thus, we can present Macbeth in an urban ghetto, Richard the Third on a World War One battlefield, and A Midsummer Night's Dream on bicycles. The setting, while thought provoking, is ultimately unimportant.

The model railroad layout is the other side of the see-saw. Here, we have a setting. Instead of "the play's the thing," we have the emphasis placed on the stage itself. Kings and commoners, locos and cabooses, all pass through the stage without affecting its unchanging visage. For some, it is sufficient to have the trains perform "walk-ons," while others choreograph their train movements like a Ballanchine ballet.

As I did in my younger days, my daughter is now part of the school theatrical productions. For months, the young joiners, tailors and weavers build their sets, mend their costumes and study their lines. Finally, there is that one grand weekend of Performance, and then the curtain falls for the last time, the scenery is struck and the lines are forgotten. It's sad that this whole thrilling episode passes so completely from the world, remembered only through recorded images and, of course, our own memories. For us railroaders, though, it's the stage itself that endures.

[Anonymous]

Up until about ten years ago I had always worked with my hands. I always was interested in trains, I can never remember feeling put out sitting at a crossing waiting for the road to clear. But the reason I told myself I was getting into model railroading was to fix things. It really is a good feeling to see the tangible result of your labors. Paperwork is not as rewarding taking something broken and making it work. But now I am finding that the artistic part of the hobby is both the hardest and the most fun.

My first trip into an art museum was when I was 19, I took a girl [;)] from Art History class to the Cincinnati Art Museum. I spent the day obsessing over a statute they had near the entrance way that was labeled "Heifer". Now I grew up on a farm and I knew what a great job the ancient artiest did carving the animal out of a block of stone. Ribs, hair, ears, nose, hooves the detail was amazing. My problem was that it was obviously and old herd cow not a heifer. It was like they labeled a coaling station and water tower as a diesel maintenance area. I felt so bad for the craftsman who had so accurately carved the animal thousands of years ago. He knew his subject and had all the skills needed to model it correctly. Even if the people putting it on display would not know the difference between a bull and a heifer they recognized his skill.

Isn't that what we strive for? To accurately represent a scene so that if an old railroad man came in he would instantly know it and to do it so skilfully that any fool off the street will be impressed?

Over the weekend I was working on my layout, on a rural siding and I went to the Walthers site and searched for bumpers. The ones I was familiar with just did not seem right for the scene. They did not "feel" like rural southern Ohio. Even though the old Atlas bumper or the wheel stops at the local grain elevator would fit my era they would not give it the flavor I wanted.

I think all of us qualify as artists. Any time we try our best to realistically model a time and place with display pieces, dioramas or layouts we are making art. Some of us have training. Some of us are "Outsiders" with no formal training but a lot of ingenuity and desire. But I think we are all artists.

Some of the work I have seen here and at the train show after the NMRA convention could easily go in a museam. A lot of it could. I don't know if it ever will but I think an enlightened curator could see qualities in much of your work that would rate a showing in their institution.

[Paul W. Beverung]

Coyote: Great thread! I think that the debate about MRRing being an art form has been going on for along time. I openion is on the aide of art form. The work that we do is certainly more meaningful than some of the things that I've seen prsented as art.

Chip: Put me down for one of those books when you get it in print. Maybe you and Coyote get together on it?

Coyote: I've got to call you soon.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

Just go and watch some people operate. Last week we had a bunch of out of town model railroaders come up to operate our local layouts. I was there to help out in case someone got into a jam. I watched one crew spend about 10 extra moves on what I would have considered a fairly simple run around. They were pleased as punch to get the job done, but they definitely did not have any "Poetry in Motion". Some people can just see the flow of a switching puzzle while others have to analyze it to get it done.

Then take the road action. I'll bet most of our regular operators have not pulled off a 100% moving pass. But last Christmas for our public show we had an 8 car El Capitan pass the facing City of Los Angeles (12 cars) with neither train having to stop. The siding was only about 15 cars long. It was quite amazing and even got some OOhs and AAHs from the audience. It was "poetry in motion" but unfortunately I didn't catch it on tape.

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all,
I thought everyone came to model railroading for the same reason I did, to meet chicks. Actually, the only girls I've ever met who were interested in trains were mothers of kids who'd come into The Great Train Store for Thomas items or girlfriends of guys who came in. It was watching the Thomas videos that I first decided that this was art. Those videos' layouts were great!
Art is in the eye of the beholder, they say, and I'd agree that the pull of model railroading comes from different quarters for everyone. Malcolm Furlow seems to have liked diarama building. Works for me, because Furlow and others have built small depictions which can become real when you look at them. Heck, Cmdr. Warren Morgan made Lionel trains appear to be real in the 1940s with scenery techniques which were truly ancient by modern standards. Why? Because when done well, the whole becomes more than the sum of its parts. It makes me wonder if an "impressionist" railroad could be built. A diarama builder might try; I doubt if a model rail trying to fill a whole room would be able to and still run the trains in his lifetime.
To me, model railroading, like any hobby, is made fun by having friends enjoy the same thing and participate in it with you. That pretty much demands actual railroading with each guy or girl in one job and pretending to be working on a real railroad. Once again, if it is done right, it seems that the whole of this is more than the sum of its parts.
But I sure do like those Furlow diaramas.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

Just go and watch some people operate. Last week we had a bunch of out of town model railroaders come up to operate our local layouts. I was there to help out in case someone got into a jam. I watched one crew spend about 10 extra moves on what I would have considered a fairly simple run around. They were pleased as punch to get the job done, but they definitely did not have any "Poetry in Motion". Some people can just see the flow of a switching puzzle while others have to analyze it to get it done.

Then take the road action. I'll bet most of our regular operators have not pulled off a 100% moving pass. But last Christmas for our public show we had an 8 car El Capitan pass the facing City of Los Angeles (12 cars) with neither train having to stop. The siding was only about 15 cars long. It was quite amazing and even got some OOhs and AAHs from the audience. It was "poetry in motion" but unfortunately I didn't catch it on tape.

TZ,

You should have see it at our club tonight. It was our first time using a dispatcher and radios and the first time many people had run assigned routes. You would hear stuff like.

Hey dispatcher I'm in Derry, what do I do now?

Who is this?

This is, uh, 69.

Conrail 69 nine you were only cleared to Blairsville.

But no one was out there.

Okay, hold the main at Derry.

Can I go to to Latrobe?

No, hold the main at Derry.

Why?

Conrail 69 hold the main at Derry and repeat the order.

Okay, I'm holding.

That guy's call sign was changed to P.I.T.A. Others were near as bad.

It was a total zoo. It was art alright--like a 5th grade orchestra playing a Debussey symphony.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

It was a total zoo. It was art alright--like a 5th grade orchestra playing a Debussey symphony.

Hey, ya gotta start somewhere....... [:D] Even at Eastman, we had to practice again and again to get it right!

[robengland]

Chip, "But no one was out there". LMAO!!!