What's the difference between a short line and a branch line?

[SpaceMouse]

At the club I model the Buffalo and Pittsburgh. It is a subsiderary of the Genesee and Wyoming and makes numerous local runs throughout the area. Is it a short line or branch line.

AT home I'm going to model the California Western that has 40 mile of track between Fort Bragg and Willits. Same question.

The CW will connect with the Northwestern Pacific that runs from Sausalito to Trinidad Head some 300 plus miles. Same question.

[jrbernier]

Chip,

a 'Short Line' would be an independent small railroad(like the California Western). A 'Branch Line' would be a small line branching off of the same railroad. For example; The Milwaukee Road mainline between St Paul and La Crosse had a 'Branch Line' that left the mainline near Hastings, and went up the west bank of the St Croix river to Stillwater. This was a part of the Milwaukee system, and used Milwaukee Road engines and crews.

Jim Bernier

[dehusman]

A short line is an "independent" railroad that is smaller than a class 1 carrier. The class of a carrier is determined by the AAR based on the revenue the line generates.

A branch line is a secondary route of a railroad.

The CW is short line. The NWP probably was a shortline and it had several branches. It gets tricky when the line is owned by a larger railroad. For example a if the NWP was owned by the SP at the time you are modeling it, was it an independent railroad or a branch of the SP?

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

My first thought is that they are Branch lines of another railroad through financial affiliation or control. Remember that "the Standard Railroad of the World" was to a great extent put together by leasing of many small short lines to reach many attractive markets to either originate or deliver people or products. Jim Hill in building the Northern Pacific created a lace work of branchs to reach the farmers in order to originate grain shipments primarily as well as haul in and deliver products that the farming community consumed. Farm impliments, lumber, nails, wire, cloth etc.. An amazing feat since the NP was built with out land grants that so many of the western railroads had to create or exploit markets on their own.

Will

[Big_Boy_4005]

Jim, how in the world did you manage to choose that section of the Milwaukee Road as an example? That is what I model and where I live. Twilight Zone! [swg]

[SpaceMouse]

What about the B&P? I don't see any mainline, but their tracks run like spagetti all through the area servicing the coal mines and power plants as well as other local traffic.



Click
http://www.gwrr.com/images/3B3_map.gif

[bbrant]

Hey Chip -

Actually, I think the B&P is considered a regional rather than a branch or shortline. In PA there's only a few branchlines. Fortunately, one of them - the CSX S&C branch - is in your back yard. It runs from Rockwood (where it connects to the Keystone Sub otherwise known as Sand Patch grade) to Johnstown where it connects to the Conemaugh & Blacklick shortline.

Back to the B&P. I mentioned that I believed it is a regional. I say that because of it's size. Definately not as big as a class 1 . Definately not a branchline of a class 1. And, last but not least, it's definately bigger than a shortline. That's why I'd call it a regional.

Not to change the subject but you mentioned you model the B&P at your club. What club is that? I'm a memeber of the Laurel Highlands Model RR Club in Somerset. If you're up that way between late November and mid-January, stop in and see the layouts that are setup. (I think we have 15 or so on display). Stop in and take a look.

Brian

[ndbprr]

What confuses the issue is that many of today's short lines were branches at some point and were spun off due to insuffiecient car loadings for a class one to maintain. So how does a short line do it then you ask? Simple. Most are nonunion and do not have the tremendous overhead costs a class one has. Plus they have incentive to attract and maintain a local customer base and do whatever it takes to meet their needs.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant



Not to change the subject but you mentioned you model the B&P at your club. What club is that? I'm a memeber of the Laurel Highlands Model RR Club in Somerset. If you're up that way between late November and mid-January, stop in and see the layouts that are setup. (I think we have 15 or so on display). Stop in and take a look.

Brian

Saying that I model the B&P is a stretch. I model the engines and run them on the layout which is a local trackage running a conglomeration of NYC, PRR, Erie Lacawanna, B&O, NS and Conrail spanning from steam to modern.

I'd love to see what your club is doing. Our club is called the Central Indiana Model Railroad Association and we would welcome a visit as well. We meet Weds at 7 pm.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Chip, the main for the B&P has to be the line from Buffalo to Pittsburgh, everything else is branches. The "spaghetti" factor is just a result of the area's physical geography.

I don't really see there being any difference between a short line and a regional, except perhaps in the number of branches it has. The B&P is almost as wide as it is long.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Chip, the main for the B&P has to be the line from Buffalo to Pittsburgh, everything else is branches. The "spaghetti" factor is just a result of the area's physical geography.

I don't really see there being any difference between a short line and a regional, except perhaps in the number of branches it has. The B&P is almost as wide as it is long.

And is growing (or creeping like a vine.) I know of at least 3 additional branches just in my area that are not on the map.

[jeffshultz]

I'm going to toss a bit of a monkey wrench in this discussion - while I personally believe that the B&P (like my "beloved" W&P/PNWR) is at least a shortline and probably a regional, due to the existence of branches on it, since it is part of the greater GWRR empire... is it a branch of it? :-)

[bbrant]

I don't know what the official ruling is for how lines are classified but here's my "in a nutshell" interpretation.

Class 1
Major corporation with thousands of miles of trackage, mostly well kept mainlines, for high speed, long distance freights. Basically the "super 7" class 1 roads are - i.e. CSX, NS, UP, BNSF, KCS, CP and CN. Typically have newer and bigger power.

Branchline
Line owned by a class 1 road but doesn't have the traffic volume that a mainline has. Typically not as well maintained as a mainline either and doesn't allow for frieghts to "highball" like the would on a main.

Regional
Not as big as a class 1 and not as small as a shortline - both in terms of trackage and financially. Unline class 1s, a regional isn't spread out over many states but rather just a specific region. Examples of regionals that I can think of are: Bessemer & Lake Erie (prior to takeover from CN), Reading Northern (Reading Blue Mountain Northern) and B&P. Normally have older units no longer needed by class 1s and range from SDs units to SWs.

Shortline
Typically a line that has relatively few miles of trackage and limted resources (including a limited budget) to maintain it's line. Normally rosters only a few engines, possibly as few as a single unit and usually are 4-axel units such as GPs or old GEs. (Personally I've never known of a shortline to have anything bigger than a 4-axel diesel on it's roster.) Best chance of seeing any remaining first generation units such GP7 or 9s. Track for a shortine is normally in rather rough shape and doesn't allow for running at high speeds like a regional or class 1.

Ok, that's my interpretation of the typical characteristics of the various types of railroads. Of course there are other things to consider like train frequency, number of crews on the roster, etc... that also come into factor. Feel free to make any other suggestions or corrections.

Brian

[Big_Boy_4005]

Class 1 is a function of revenue, and the big 7 are all that make the 50 million dollar cut, after all the 90's mergers.

Class ones still have branches, as long as they remain profitable. When they fall out of profitability, and there is still business that needs service, short lines are formed.

Maybe the difference between regional and shortline is mileage. Under 50 is shortline, over 50 is regional.

[IRONROOSTER]

This link has some info on what the requirements are and who is a class 1 railroad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_I_railroad
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

A "branchline" can be part of a class 1, shortline or regional. Some roads use the term "branch". On the Reading Co. only the route between St Clair and Philadelphia and between Philadelphia and New York was considered the "Main Line". Everything else, regardless of traffic density was considered a "branch". Some railroads had no "branches' listed in their timetables, they didn't use term. As a matter of fact, the term "Branch" or "Branch Line" rarely appear in any rule book. On most "Branches" the track the trains operate on is "main track" by the rules.
A short line is just a small railroad. It can have its own main line and branchlines. It might not have any branches. Doesn't matter.

Dave H.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

This link has some info on what the requirements are and who is a class 1 railroad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_I_railroad
Enjoy
Paul

Gee Paul, guess I'm a little behind the times. I didn't realize the bar had been raised so high.

I'm not sure everything on that page is 100% accurate though. I thought the CP completely absorbed the Soo, which should have taken it off the list. The GTW is another one.

[selector]

What is a spur, then? Can all roads have spurs, or do they just have branches? Couldn't a short line have a spur? Can a short line have a branch?

We need a schematic that shows what's what.

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

I don't know what the official ruling is for how lines are classified but here's my "in a nutshell" interpretation.

Class 1
Major corporation with thousands of miles of trackage, mostly well kept mainlines, for high speed, long distance freights. Basically the "super 7" class 1 roads are - i.e. CSX, NS, UP, BNSF, KCS, CP and CN. Typically have newer and bigger power.

Branchline
Line owned by a class 1 road but doesn't have the traffic volume that a mainline has. Typically not as well maintained as a mainline either and doesn't allow for frieghts to "highball" like the would on a main.

Regional
Not as big as a class 1 and not as small as a shortline - both in terms of trackage and financially. Unline class 1s, a regional isn't spread out over many states but rather just a specific region. Examples of regionals that I can think of are: Bessemer & Lake Erie (prior to takeover from CN), Reading Northern (Reading Blue Mountain Northern) and B&P. Normally have older units no longer needed by class 1s and range from SDs units to SWs.

Shortline
Typically a line that has relatively few miles of trackage and limted resources (including a limited budget) to maintain it's line. Normally rosters only a few engines, possibly as few as a single unit and usually are 4-axel units such as GPs or old GEs. (Personally I've never known of a shortline to have anything bigger than a 4-axel diesel on it's roster.) Best chance of seeing any remaining first generation units such GP7 or 9s. Track for a shortine is normally in rather rough shape and doesn't allow for running at high speeds like a regional or class 1.

Ok, that's my interpretation of the typical characteristics of the various types of railroads. Of course there are other things to consider like train frequency, number of crews on the roster, etc... that also come into factor. Feel free to make any other suggestions or corrections.

Brian

Good definitions; To add to a 'Shortline;' No more than one division, no more than one shift to make a complete run.

Depending on geography, climate, resources, trade, number of sidings that can add up to several different kinds of shortlines.

HTH

Happy Railroading,

Mark

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

What is a spur, then? Can all roads have spurs, or do they just have branches? Couldn't a short line have a spur? Can a short line have a branch?

We need a schematic that shows what's what.

A Spur can be a branchline but it's usually just a much longer line than a siding and may require special operating rules or techniques such as facing-point or trailing-point for setting out or picking up cars.

Examples would be to a mine complex, quarry, or to a powerplant having several sidings or a small yard. This link
http://members.tripod.com/appalachian_railroad/mineruns.html
demonstrates some possiblities.

HTH

Happy Railroading,

Mark

[dehusman]

Spur, branch, mainline etc. are all descriptive, colloquial terms that can vary in usage from railroad to railroad and most are not "official" terms, that is are not defined in a rule book.

Just to add to the list are subdivision, industrial lead, lead and secondary.

From a rules standpoint there is the main track, there are sidings and there is track other than the main track. The main track can be a "main line", a branch, a subdivision, a secondary, an industrial lead and can be on aa class 1, a terminal line, a regional or a short line.

Normally a spur is a short single ended track, typicall y serving an industry or industries.

Dave H.

[selector]

Thanks to both of you. I think we are all talking the same language, but just as different roads had different terminology, so do their modelers.

[Train 284]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbernier

Chip,

a 'Short Line' would be an independent small railroad(like the California Western). A 'Branch Line' would be a small line branching off of the same railroad. For example; The Milwaukee Road mainline between St Paul and La Crosse had a 'Branch Line' that left the mainline near Hastings, and went up the west bank of the St Croix river to Stillwater. This was a part of the Milwaukee system, and used Milwaukee Road engines and crews.

Jim Bernier

Took the words right out of my mouth! Good one! [:p]

[Anonymous]

The Santa Fe used to run a large number of branch lines in Kansas. Some years ago they sold off the bulk of them to other companies. Santa Fe used to be "THE RAILROAD" that hauled the grain out of Garden City, Kansas, for example. Now "THE RAILROAD" that hauls the wheat out of Garden City is the Garden City Western. Same rails, different ownership. Also the GCW doesn't go very far. Somewhere down the line they hand off the freight to Santa Fe. Kalmbach published a guide to shortlines in the US. It sells for less than $20.00 I believe. I believe GCW qualifies as a "short line". On the other hand, a few years ago the former ICG line between St. Louis and Kansas City was operated by the Gateway Western which probably qualified as a regional. One of it's owners was the Santa Fe. When Santa Fe and BN became BNSF the resulting giant had other ways to get to St. Louis so the Gateway Western was sold to Kansas City Southern. I think it's still a seperate entity, but you can't tell that by train watching. Everything I see on the GWW is pretty much KCS. Hope this info is of some help.

Cheers,

Ed

[Mikeygaw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

This link has some info on what the requirements are and who is a class 1 railroad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_I_railroad
Enjoy
Paul

Gee Paul, guess I'm a little behind the times. I didn't realize the bar had been raised so high.

I'm not sure everything on that page is 100% accurate though. I thought the CP completely absorbed the Soo, which should have taken it off the list. The GTW is another one.

I believe Soo and GTW are used to differentiate US and Canadian Operations and Assets; makes is easier to figure who you owe what to in taxes etc.