The Holy Grail of Model Railroading (Now with pictures)

[Train 284]

Bob Hayes,

Thank you for correcting me! I forgot 9" gauge! Those Roll Models locomotive (steam) range from 40K - 50K. I recieved the price list and thought to myself, wow! I have seen some 2 1/2" scale equipment where you can not fit entirely in the car, but who knows....maybe I am wrong. Thanks very much for explaining it Bob! Sometime I tend to think that everyone know what I know! I have to put it to simpler terms, which is a skill I need to work!

If my friend gets his locomotive done in time, we maybe going up to the Train Mountain Triennial 2006. He has the chasis and most of the metal work done. Most of the final parts need to be added such as the cab, tender, etc.

[underworld]

[:D]WoW!!! I think I have enough frequent flyer miles to go there for free!!!

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Bob Hayes]

James,

I don't think the Cannonball Lil Gaser is really a minature version of any real locomotive. It's just small and runs on a very small gas engine. I think they also make a battery powered version which is cheaper yet. Either would be a starting place, and as time goes on, you can get a bigger engine. You might also check out Rail Systems in Sutherland, Oregon. They make a SW1500 in 1.7" scale. I think that's the one either Mark or Joel has.

Bob Hayes

[Bob Hayes]

James,

I changed it. Try it again

Bob Hayes

[Bob Hayes]

Shawn,

Village Press has a magazine called "The Home Shop Machinist" which covers the use of machine tools and how to make things. They also publish "Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading". Some junior colleges have machine shop courses you can take, and some high schools offer night classes in machining. You will most likely need to learn to weld too. There are several books available. One of the ones I have is the 2 volumn set, "Machine Shop Principles". Also check your local public library or a large book store. Eventually, you will need to buy the "Machinery's Handbook" It doesn't tell you how to run the machine, but it has all the tables you will need, like tap & die sizes, drills, speeds & feeds, etc.

Bob Hayes

[Anonymous]

dinwitty,

The little engines bolt together locomotives are pircey. 15,000 + for a start.

---

Bob Hayes,

Thanks for the info, but your link doesn't seem to work. Man! You park in your basement, like a gargage for you trains, that sounds interesteing. I noticed the E&S lines have free shipping, a mighty good thing, since they are located in Florida.
Speaking of scale how off scale are the little starter sets, like the one in capt_truk's post, they look too small to me?

Still investigating steam, about how much does a lathe and milling machine cost, just to get started, not a super fancy model?

[Bob Hayes]

James,

Since Matt brought it up, here's a little more information on scale vs. gauge. A modern full size locomotive is 10 feet wide and runs on a track gauge of 56-1/2 inches. If you scale it down to 1.5" per foot, it would be 15" wide and would run on a gauge of approx. 7-1/16". The gauge was changed to 7-1/4 because it was easier to measure. Somewhere in time, the gauge in most of the US got changed to 7.5". Then Tom Miller had a Big Boy built in 1.6" scale which makes 7.5" gauge correct scale wise, and makes locomotives 16" wide. Now if you want to build a model of a 3' narrow gauge locomotive to run on 7.5" gauge track, you have to build it in 2.5" scale. A Maine 2 foot gauge locomotive needs to be built in 3-3/4" scale in order for it to fit on 7.5" gauge track. Once you get to 2.5" scale, most people can fit inside a car, and can sit in the tender of a locomotive. At 3.3/4" scale, you can pretty well fit in the cab, but they are pretty big locomotives. Roll Models sells some, and my neighbor has one, I believe the price was around $50k.

Matt left out a gauge in his list of grand scales; 9" gauge used with 1/4 scale 3' narrow gauge. I think it's a nice size as the cars are wide enough to sit in comfortably, and steam engines are big enough to sound good without being too big.

The TM members own their own containers to keep their equipment in and some do share with friends. The next batch of containers will cost $2600+ shipping, and I believe they are all spoken for. I don't need a container, since I live next door and have an access track running into my basement.

The E&S Lines F7 is a nice starter loco. It has a fiberglass body, but doesn't have a lot of detail. You would still need a riding car to go behind it.

If you are really interested, I would suggest you check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/livediesel/ They have a lot of information about building a diesel from scratch as well as the various companies building them.

Bob Hayes

[dinwitty]

Little Engines has some bolt together locos, other Live Steam makers are the same.
Remember tho, you may have to have the engine inspected by the boiler authorities, just for safety anyways
It may be cheaper to do a Diesel.

[swknox]

Are there any books or websites that teach you how to use a lathe or milling machine? I have been thinking about buying one of each but not sure how to use them?

[Train 284]

I know so much about this stuff it is crazy. I am helping a friend build from scratch a 2 1/2" scale 7 1/2" gauge railroad. I also volunteer on a 15" gauge 5" scale railroad, a lot bigger than that tiny stuff, I like the idea of riding in trains not on them. Train Mountain has a video produced by Robinson & Associates and the manager is a friend of mine, maybe I can give you guys a discount!
To answer some questions, the engineers on steamers ride on the tender and you usually remove the roof to get to the controls. There are foot pegs to help balance the weight.

Cars very in size, 1 1/2" is the smallest they can be from 4-10 feet long and no more than a foot wide. 2 1/2" scale is a good option, the cars are a little wider and look more prototypical. 3 3/4" scale is big for this gauge, usually you can or almost ride inside.

Locomotives can burn wood, coal, oil, or propane.

7 1/2" gauge is the most popular in North America, but of course those Canadians and Europeans have to be difference, they choose a different gauge, 7 1/4" gauge! This 1/4" prevents different trains from running on the same track.

The most popular scale is 1 1/2".

There are also the grand scale trains which one can ride inside. These range from scale models, to amusment park trains, to home built creations. This is my personal favorite, the big scales. Among these gauges include 10 1/4", 12, 12 1/4, 12 5/8, 13 1/4, 14, 14 1/8, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 22, and 24.

Why so many? Because when manufacturers were putting these trains out for parks, they wanted a gauge that was not compatible with there competitors. 15" gauge is my favorite, especially 5" scale.

Want more info e-mail me and visit these sites................

www.grandscales.com

www.7plusrailroader.com

Both of thse sites have the Train Mountain DVD













































Anyways, here are some sites to check out.........

www.onprailroad.5u.com
www.grandscales.com
www.7plusrailroader.com


All have links to many other sites! Check them out when you have a few hours of spare time! You will be hooked!!

[Anonymous]

Bob Hayes,

Do you guys have to buy your own shipping container, if so for how much? Do people with just a few models share a container? Sorry to here about the roundhouse.

I have been thinking a diesel might be better to get started, are these good? The ES line F7 http://eslinesfl.com/index.html

Thanks for all the help.

[Anonymous]

If you want to get running relatively cheaply to start, small gas switchers can be had used for as little as $1000. I paid $1800 for mine with a riding car. It is a Cannonball "Lil Gasser". It's not big or fancy, but,I don't have $10,000 plus for a live steamer. I recently bought a caboose for $700 to go with it. It's a hoot no matter what it is. The main thing is to get rolling.

[Bob Hayes]

James,

The Nelson book is a good introduction to building a live steam locomotive, but the Kozo book is very involved requiring machining equipment and skill, as well as silver soldering. The book is a reprint of articles that were published in Live Steam some years ago, and you can probably find all the back issues on ebay. The picture of the loco is close, but I can't see enough of it to be sure. There was a series of articles in Live Steam written by Robert W Maynard about how to build one. Back issues can probably be found on ebay also. I have seen them for sale at prices up to about $15k, but you could probably build one for a lot less.
Bob Hayes

[Bob Hayes]

TommyToot,

What heated storage are you talking about? The only heated areas are the machine shop area of the back shop, and Quentin's storage area. The middle section is not heated. The shipping containers came with doors on one side, and TM installed roll up doors on the track side for an extra charge. The only storage areas you might find for rent would be if someone had extra space in their container. There isn't going to be a roundhouse due to cost. The containers and transfer table will be where the roundhouse was going to be. There were some lots for sale in the middle of TM property, but they been sold. There was no water or electricity to them and the cost for one of the purchasers just to get power to his property is $40k. In the future, there will be some 5 acre sites available for about 85K.

Bob Hayes

[Anonymous]

Lotus098, The quarterly operating sessions are well organized. Generally, operating time is anytime of the year (if you don't mind shoveling snow) and for me an hour of work gets you an hour of run time. There is ALWAYS something to do. Mant loco owners haul their own but heated storage is available. Some have purchased their own shipping container and cut both ends for track and added garage doors on each end. I believe you can rent storage space, and I know you can buy a stall in a heated roundhouse. I know of several members who spend all summer here. A campground with hookups is on site, and the longterm plan is to have renovated cabooses at sidings on the 2500 acre grounds where you ride your train to your rented or purchased caboose. I'm fairly certain there are some lots for sale (lease) if you are inclined to want to build your own house/cabin. On operating weekends you see everything you can imagin running on rails from wood burning vertical boiler loco, to very nice diesels of all models and live steamers that will make your jaw drop. How about a BigBoy with tender and a couple of box cars (holding propane tanks) for sale at around 60K. "The only difference between men and boys is the price of your toys" Members can usually hitch a ride with most anyone and ride all day free. I do not have a loco YET, but enjoy a work day or two and a weekend of riding and the smell of burning coal. The website has pictures of each operating session which also shows a lot of the facilities. I'm hoping to maintain my N scale winter activity and summers of live "diesel" at Train Mountain.

[Anonymous]

Is this a CliShay?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

James,

The "Idaho Mafia"(Mark Flitton, Joel Slagg, Richard Ledyard, & Jim Whelam from San Diego, CA) is here now. They just relayed the loop from Elingson Bridge to South Portal with steel rail. The track panels are composed of 10 foot rails, mounted on 30 16" plastic ties offset 12". This is so the rail joints are staggered. This requires 12 foot cars transport them. Since the railroad is so large, we use locomotives to move train loads of track panels. We have a track shop devoted just to making track panels and switches. We use John Deere Gators to move and dump ballast, and volunteers to spread it around. The railroad sits on 2300 acres not counting the OTH property.
Members with their own equipment can come and run anytime, weather permitting. During daylight hours and during the week, trolleys are availabe for rental at $20/hr with a $50 min. It should take you about 3 hrs to cover all the track, but there are short cuts if you don't have that much time.

You might be able to find a small steam engine for under $5000. I bought a CliShay for $4000 a few years ago, but I would expect a ready to run steam engine in good condition to be over $10,000. Generally, diesels will be much less expensive than steam engines, with starting prices around $5300R-T-R. SW15 for a 00.

Loather

You better add $8 mil to that half Mil$ of you want to get close.

Bob Hayes next door to Train Mountain in Chiloquin, OR

Wow! where can you get one of those? Shay locomotives have always fascinated me. I am quite willing to learn how to do the machining and stuff. Who makes, and how much is the required equipment for building a steam loco? Is this book any good for help on getting started in the hobby? Does any body have any other books they would recommend on the subject?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0914104012/qid=1126233963/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9278267-0620848?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Too bad I don't live closer, good scenery up there; take a look at these pictures from Crater Lake.

[Bob Hayes]

James,

The "Idaho Mafia"(Mark Flitton, Joel Slagg, Richard Ledyard, & Jim Whelam from San Diego, CA) is here now. They just relayed the loop from Elingson Bridge to South Portal with steel rail. The track panels are composed of 10 foot rails, mounted on 30 16" plastic ties offset 12". This is so the rail joints are staggered. This requires 12 foot cars transport them. Since the railroad is so large, we use locomotives to move train loads of track panels. We have a track shop devoted just to making track panels and switches. We use John Deere Gators to move and dump ballast, and volunteers to spread it around. The railroad sits on 2300 acres not counting the OTH property.
Members with their own equipment can come and run anytime, weather permitting. During daylight hours and during the week, trolleys are availabe for rental at $20/hr with a $50 min. It should take you about 3 hrs to cover all the track, but there are short cuts if you don't have that much time.

You might be able to find a small steam engine for under $5000. I bought a CliShay for $4000 a few years ago, but I would expect a ready to run steam engine in good condition to be over $10,000. Generally, diesels will be much less expensive than steam engines, with starting prices around $5300 for a R-T-R. SW1500.

Loather

You better add $8 mil to that half Mil$ of you want to get close.

Bob Hayes next door to Train Mountain in Chiloquin, OR

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

Big Boy,

Is there any scale you haven't dabbled in? Seems you know something about every scale!!!

Excellent question and observation!!!

At one time or another I have been in clubs in N, HO, 2 rail O, 3 rail O, live steam 1" and 1-1/2" (same club), and full size. I have a little bit of G stashed away, but these days I'm exclusively into 3 rail O. I've spent a few years working in hobby stores, built models for a living, built a few layouts for money, and had my own train display at the Mall of America. You will find some additional information in my profile.

So what does that leave, Z, TT, and S? Not much call for those these days, though the basic principles still apply.

I like benchwork, trackwork, layout design, electrical, scenery, structures, and operation. I'm not really into steam (though you wouldn't know it from this topic) nor specific prototypes except for my local area.

You saw a photo of my book shelves in your topic. 55 years of MR in binders, and I'm only 44. More than 30 years NMRA, but I digress.

That's me, jack of all "trains", master of none. [swg]

I don't usually "flash my credentials" like this, but you caught me in a moment of weakness. I hope I didn't make you sorry for asking.

[Anonymous]

Big Boy,

Is there any scale you haven't dabbled in? Seems you know something about every scale!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

James, that engine in the link looks about right for the size. Just a different wheel arrangement. The scale is an odd one, between quarter size and third size, closer to third which would be 4" to the foot. It's kind of like what happens in G, where the models are proportioned all over the place to fit the common track. In this case it turns out to be 3-3/4" to make the 7-1/2" track 2 foot gauge.

You might have to break up the coal, but if I remember correctly, clubs buy it by the bag in pretty small chunks to start with. That firebox is going to be a decent size, busting coal should be the least of your troubles. Each engine is a little different, but there should be a door on the firebox that you open and a small shovel to stoke it with. You will also have a poker to use to tend the fire, which often doubles as your means of opening the door.

Of course if you don't want to stoke it, there's always propane. A lot less messy, and less maintenance too. Almost instant on fire, but you don't get that smell of burning coal. You also don't get cinders in your eyes, and come home covered in soot. That may be half the fun.

Remember they don't call it live steam for nothing. It really is alive, it breathes, and you have to feed and water it.

My suggestion is that you hang around the club, and see if you can find a mentor. At your age they may not let you be a full member. Each club is different.

This is as expensive as this hobby gets, so learn all you can first. I'm by no means an expert at this type of train. I'm just sharing with you what I picked up in a little over a year's time at the local club.

[Anonymous]

Thanks! Of course I already have the Train Mountain website book marked. Thanks for the links. Since you are a member, maybe could you tell me? Do you only run on the weekends or could you take a vacation up there for a week and run trains? Also where do you store your equipment, and is there a charge? I heard something about old shipping containers.
As I have been checking out the locomotives, thanks to the links listed on Train Mountains website, how exactly do you fire a coal powered steam locomotive? Do you need to break you coal down really small? How do you get it in the firebox?

[Anonymous]

Train Mountain is increditable. As a member there are three or four organized operating weekends, preceeded by two or three work days (better known as knee time) About 3,000 feet of track is laid during a the work days. Talk about sectional track, panels of preassembled each about 12ft long are lain on professionally graded roadbed. Fantastic fun with some HARD work. Check out these links.

http://www.trainmountain.org

or if you are interested in ready to run loco's

http://www.railsystemsco.com

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

One other question. How do the scales work? What is 1 1/2 scale compared to 3 3/4 scale?

I was looking at that. That model turns out to be a narrow gauge engine at that scale on that gauge of track. Proportionally it is more than double the size, meaning that cars would most likely need to be scratch built from the trucks up. It will certainly have more power than an inch and a half version. I'm not sure how much that one could pull, maybe 4 or 5 cars with one adult each. Grade is going to make all the difference.

The more interesting question is, how do you ride it? It is almost too large to straddle. Does the engineer have his feet in the tender with a seat toward the back? Perhaps he rides in a car behind, and uses a long handeled shovel to stoke it. One other potential problem I see is it may be a little unstable because of it's high center of gravity and relatively narrow wheel base.

I didn't see a price list, I wonder how much?

I just read the description more carefully and saw that it is a 2 foot gauge model. Looking at that front view drawing, it would have to be about 9 or 10 scale feet wide. That is around 36", meaning cars would be open top, ride inside. Engineer would probably sit on the tender's water tank, leaving nice leg space, and room for a coal bucket. Maybe extended controls. Some club layouts may have clearence problems for this engine, widthwise.

This still doesn't answer the scale question. Is 1 1/2 = to 1/8 scale, just a guess? If not what scale is it and how can you tell? Thanks for the warning on the size I will check this out before making any plans to get one. I too would like to see a price list, but the model won't be available for about a year. Perhaps it would look similar to one of these, it is much wider than you would expect, and this picture came from the mystery photo section of Train Mountain's website. http://www.trainmountain.org/ShowImage.aspx?Title=Photo%20Album&SubTitle=<br>Sweet%20Creek&Image=./Images/PhotoAlbum/Year2000/IBLS/SweetCreekF.JPG&Credit=<center><i>Photo%20by%20Jim%20Morgan</i></center>&Text= I could not find on the rules of operation a limit on the size of equipment, I guess I will just have to talk to someone before I look at buying one a year from now. In fact Mark Flitton from Caldwell (fairly close to where I live), who appeared in the Train Mountain special on RFD TV, is grading his backyard for his own railroad.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

What a Doll! Think you need to get me her number.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

One other question. How do the scales work? What is 1 1/2 scale compared to 3 3/4 scale?

I was looking at that. That model turns out to be a narrow gauge engine at that scale on that gauge of track. Proportionally it is more than double the size, meaning that cars would most likely need to be scratch built from the trucks up. It will certainly have more power than an inch and a half version. I'm not sure how much that one could pull, maybe 4 or 5 cars with one adult each. Grade is going to make all the difference.

The more interesting question is, how do you ride it? It is almost too large to straddle. Does the engineer have his feet in the tender with a seat toward the back? Perhaps he rides in a car behind, and uses a long handeled shovel to stoke it. One other potential problem I see is it may be a little unstable because of it's high center of gravity and relatively narrow wheel base.

I didn't see a price list, I wonder how much?

I just read the description more carefully and saw that it is a 2 foot gauge model. Looking at that front view drawing, it would have to be about 9 or 10 scale feet wide. That is around 36", meaning cars would be open top, ride inside. Engineer would probably sit on the tender's water tank, leaving nice leg space, and room for a coal bucket. Maybe extended controls. Some club layouts may have clearence problems for this engine, widthwise.

[Anonymous]

Here are some pictures from my trip, I will have more soon.





Aren't those great. Take a look at the minature buildings.



Here is the some of the village on the other side of the run.


Hope you like these.

[Anonymous]

One other question. How do the scales work? What is 1 1/2 scale compared to 3 3/4 scale?

[loathar]

It's interesting you should post this now. I just found out the new company I work for has a customer that buys his steel from us and has us do some machining for him. He builds 7+ live steam loco's. If you refer to my web page, in the Lynnville Train Museum section, the live steam 7+ gauge loco pic there was built by him.I told the bosses to introduce me to this guy the next time he comes in.Maybe I can get you more info after meeting him.That Train Mountain special on RFD was FANTASTIC. I wish I had a half Mil$ to do somthing like that.