Is it a steam thing?

[jacon12]

My layout is to the point that I have track down in a temporary fashion, nothing is soldered together, no bus.. no feeders.
I have 3 diesels.. a Kato and a couple of P2ks and I have one BLI class a 2-6-6-4 steamer. I've noticed that the diesels will go anywhere on the layout, backwards or forwards... thru turnouts etc. with no problem. The Kato is an SD-40 and the others are a GP-9i and an E6 AB unit. But the BLI..... no way.. especially thru a couple of the turnouts. It will stall and if I gently push it forward it will come back to life and proceed. It will go thru the same turnout in reverse with no problem. If I have the speed up a bit it will go thru in forward also, but wants to hesitate.
So my question is... why? What is it about the diesels wheel configuration, if that is the difference? What is it about the steam loco? Does it have anything at all to do with the tender? I have run the Class A slowly thru the turnout, trying to see what is causing it. You would think that with all the wheels on the steamer, and I believe they're all electrical pickup wheel (not sure about that), that it would have an easier time, but evidently... for some reason I can't fathom, thats not the case.
Thanks for any and all enlightenment!
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

If it's not an electrical pick up problem, then I would look for a mechanical cause, such as a low hanging part getting caught on the diverging track or possibly a track that is slightly too narrow, thereby pinching the locomotive's wheels. Another possibility would be that the turn is just too tight for the articulated locomotive, which would also cause pinching of the wheels. Just a couple thoughts of things to check.

[oleirish]

Jarrell
Check and see if the engine is powered half on frame and half on tender(wire between tender and engine)my new mike is that way and I'am looking at putting wripers on the left side of the engine and removeing the tender power all togethor.I'am running D.C. right now so don't have a big problem , but if I go DCC then I might.[^][8D]

JIM

[NZRMac]

My BLI has electrical pickup on all the drivers and the tender wheels, so it's unusual I would think to be an electrical problem.

Ken.

[oleirish]

Switch frogs to shallow maybe????
JIM

[SpaceMouse]

I'm going to disagree with the crowd and say it is a steam thing. At our club the diesels get around pretty easily but the steamers--all of them, all makes and model--have problems. This is because we are in a humid basement and the tracks moves all over the place. The diesels have no problem.

AT home I run only steamers and I have worked the track and worked it and worked it so that all the steamers run just fine. The diesels are much easier to please. When you get your track nailed down you can hit the joints and turnouts and with files and make it smooth as a baby's behind and your steamers will glide like they were meant to. But don't expect miracles from temporary track.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Chip. I think it's a steam thing, too. Steamers are high strung. They are "high society" so to speak. An old diesel will run on just about anything. Steamers are sophisticated. They require the very best. I am mooning all the junky diesels out there. LOL

[selector]

Check the wire harness between loco and tender. I use a thin file or a small, long screwdriver to press the connector into its socket on both sides to ensure that it is fully seated.

Also, check to see that the pickups are seated on their contact points...very carefully (they are like glass!). Check for lint and crud. Use a magnifying glass to inspect the points and frogs for obstructions.

Also, the idea of inspecting the loco and tender for low-hanging piping or whatever that might foul the tracks and frog is a good one.

[twhite]

Are your turnout frogs powered or un-powered? Also, what's the type of turnout you're using--a #4 is going to be a tight fit for a 2-6-6-4, though a #5 seems to work just fine. I use #5 yard and #6 main for my turnouts, and my BLI doesn't have a problem with any of them. But I use Sinohara and Peco turnouts, with live frogs. An insulated frog like Atlas, might be the problem there, I've known all kinds of steam locomotives hit them and refuse to move. Also, check your track connectors around the turnouts, some of them might have become loose. If so, tighten them with needle-nose pliers. BLI's are VERY picky about loose track connectors.
Tom [:D]

[twhite]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

Jarrell
Check and see if the engine is powered half on frame and half on tender(wire between tender and engine)my new mike is that way and I'am looking at putting wripers on the left side of the engine and removeing the tender power all togethor.I'am running D.C. right now so don't have a big problem , but if I go DCC then I might.[^][8D]

JIM

Jim--rather than remove your tender pickup, I'd suggest you replace the Mantua tender wheels with appropriate NWSL nickel-silver wheels. THEN install Tomar track wipers on both locomotive AND tender--it's easy to do with a drill and tap--and you'll be amazed at what a smooth runner you end up with. I'm in the process of converting all of my older brass and metal steamers to Tomar wipers, and the difference in running quality is just amazing!
Tom [:p]

[Virginian]

I agree with the suggestion to check the wiring harness connection to the engine. One of mine has this issue every once in a while. I keep forgetting to tie it.

[chateauricher]

I think Tom (twhite) is correct. You probably will need to use turnouts with powered frogs.

Steam locomotives — especially N-scale — often have very short wheel bases (compared to modern diesels) so crossing even the fairly short gap created by an unpowered frog can cause the engine to stop. Seeing that when you pu***he locomotive forward, it works again suggests that it is indeed a frog power problem.

To be on the safe side, you could check out all the other suggestions offered here; but I suspect you'll have to convert to powered frog turnouts.

[SpaceMouse]

I misread the question at first. Jarrell, you are running DCC right?

I have a decoderized 4-4-0 that acted I think similarily. When the track was DC it would run across one turnout and just as it left the turnout, it would sometimes reverse directions when going slow. Now that I've gone DCC it will hesitate or stall in the same place.

At the club, we have several places where the track current reverses directions. Sometimes the locos will hesitate when the cross-over is made. That is how the 4-4-0 acts.

I haven't fixed it on my layout because it's not a huge issue, but somehow there seems to be a reversal of current when this loco goes through that turnout. It only happens when it is leaving the turnout having entered the from the straight side of the frog end.

I'm not sure if that helps.

[MisterBeasley]

When was the last time you cleaned your wheels? I've got a Bowser PCC car that stalls whenever the wheels get dirty. The problem usually starts on turnouts, and then progresses to almost anywhere. For some reason, the Bowser wheels need to be cleaned far more often than any of the other powered machines.

[jacon12]

I should have mentioned the layout is dcc. I've cleaned track until it shines like a new nickel. I've used a bright boy and a track cleaning car, but the bright boy does the better job. The turnouts are all Atlas #4 I cleaned the locos wheels using the 'Goo Gone on a paper towel laid on the track and holding the loco on it while powering it up' method. I cleaned the copper contacts on the tender bottom. I appreciate all the suggestions of things to check and I'll do that today. I'm leaning toward an electric problem rather than a mechanical one, but who knows. It will also do it on a particular stretch of straight track if it's speed is not hight enough. If the speed IS high enough I notice it will sorta do a very quick hesitation thing at that spot, but keep going.
I guess I should be surprised that it runs at all considering the only power going to the track is the two wires coming off the Digitrax Zephyr and no other feeder wires. That, and none of the rail joiners are soldered. You know, when you think about it... the diesels do have a long wheel base, even the little GP-9 so I suspect that the diesels front wheels will go across the points in the turnout where the dead area is and the rear ones are still on live rail, whereas the steamer doesn't do that.
Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here.
I appreciate the suggestions!
Kinda sorta makes me want to get out of the steamer business (I only have the one) and go all diesels, the longer the better.. [:)]
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

I think the answer was just given "I'm using an Atlas #4". Number 4's are hard on steamers because of the long rigid frame. As Dave pointed out, what happens is the narrow track raises the wheels and then you have a derailment. I use #5's and 6's and have no trouble with steamers from 0-6-0T (Mantua) to a 2-8-8-2 (Proto). Ninety percent of my locos are steam, but when I do find a problem it's usually with the track and not the loco.

[MisterBeasley]

Soldered connections and feeders will make a big difference. I've been disconnecting and re-connecting track in one part of my layout while I do scenery below some bridges, and paint the bridges themselves. At one point I had a stalling problem just like yours, but with every locomotive I tried. When I looked closely, I had completely missed one rail joiner in one of my hasty assembly jobs.

[Adelie]

Hi Jarrell,

Your original post implies that the BLI makes it through some of the turnouts okay, and I assume they are all Atlas with insulated frogs. If that is the case, Chip's and Tom's statements about not discounting the impact of temporary connections might be right on. As always with troubleshooting, eliminate the 10-cent part before your replace the $10 (or worse) part. In this case, the 10-cent parts would be the track connections.

That said, I think an Atlas #4 is a bit tight for something the size of a 2-6-6-4. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but a #5 would add something around 6 or 8 inches to the closure radius, which could make a world of difference here. If you are using all sectional track, a #5 will require some flex track to connect the diverging track to the rest of the empire (angle is different than an Atlas 4, I'm sure).

Back in my HO days, I certainly had more of these sorts of problems with steam than diesel, and I think it is due to the way they pickup power. That seemed to stop when I switched from Atlas with insulated frogs to Shinohara (Lambert at the time).

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

Jarrell
Check and see if the engine is powered half on frame and half on tender(wire between tender and engine)my new mike is that way and I'am looking at putting wripers on the left side of the engine and removeing the tender power all togethor.I'am running D.C. right now so don't have a big problem , but if I go DCC then I might.[^][8D]

JIM

Jim--rather than remove your tender pickup, I'd suggest you replace the Mantua tender wheels with appropriate NWSL nickel-silver wheels. THEN install Tomar track wipers on both locomotive AND tender--it's easy to do with a drill and tap--and you'll be amazed at what a smooth runner you end up with. I'm in the process of converting all of my older brass and metal steamers to Tomar wipers, and the difference in running quality is just amazing!
Tom [:p]

Tom I'am with you but there is'nt a whole lot of space between the drivers and the frame,I'am looking at this real hard,tender no problem,re-build on the list of things to do.
I've got every thing I need for It.If you do a mantua mike let me know please??
Thanks
JIM

[rrinker]

I'm REALLY suprised that a loco the size of the Class A with that many wheels would POSSIBLY have a pickup issue of unpowered frogs. There's plenty of wheels that are NOT over the frog. It COULD be a pickup issue, but a mechanical one in which the pickups aren't in contact, or a wire is broken. When everything is working correctly, the pickup area on that 2-6-6-4 is HUGE. Stalling over unpowered frogs is usually left to short wheelbase things like 0-4-0's and diesels with only 4 wheel pickup.
It could be binding up, although the M1a makes it through #4's with no problem, and definitely ok through #6's - at any speed from a crawl to ludicrous speed, no hesitation, no derailments. And it's even ATLAS track (OMG, the model train police are gonna get me, I dared use Atlas track!).

--Randy

[knewsom]

I have the Class A as well, and it does not have any problems going through my Atlas number 4 turnouts. I do remember that when I first purchased it, I had some problems with it hesitating, but once it was properly lubed these problems went away. Since the BLI requires a lot of electrical power to handle the decoder, it probably has to do with the voltage drop in the track. It may be that once you get your feeders and bus in place this issue will go away.

[twhite]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

Jarrell
Check and see if the engine is powered half on frame and half on tender(wire between tender and engine)my new mike is that way and I'am looking at putting wripers on the left side of the engine and removeing the tender power all togethor.I'am running D.C. right now so don't have a big problem , but if I go DCC then I might.[^][8D]

JIM

Jim--rather than remove your tender pickup, I'd suggest you replace the Mantua tender wheels with appropriate NWSL nickel-silver wheels. THEN install Tomar track wipers on both locomotive AND tender--it's easy to do with a drill and tap--and you'll be amazed at what a smooth runner you end up with. I'm in the process of converting all of my older brass and metal steamers to Tomar wipers, and the difference in running quality is just amazing!
Tom [:p]

Tom I'am with you but there is'nt a whole lot of space between the drivers and the frame,I'am looking at this real hard,tender no problem,re-build on the list of things to do.
I've got every thing I need for It.If you do a mantua mike let me know please??
Thanks
JIM

Jim--though I've had a Mantua Mike, it's been a long time ago. However, believe it or not, there's plenty of space between the wheels to install a Tomar. I've installed them on brass imports that not only have closer wheel spacing, but brake-shoe castings to boot, and the Tomar's will 'float' just fine. With the Mantua, I'd suggest you mount it between the first and second drivers (I'm assuming that your middle two drivers are 'blind', as most Mantua Mikes are) using a drill and tap on the frame cover. The phospour bronze 'slide' on the Tomar is very flexible, and will adjust itself against the wheel treads while you're running the loco. Beleive me, they're made to fit almost ANY wheel spacing. But I DEFINITELY suggest replacing those Mantua tender wheels--they're brass, and brass collects track crud like crazy. Even just replacing the tender wheels with appropriately sized nickel-silver will improve your pickup about 50%.
Tom [:)]

[twhite]

Also as a general PS: Don't want to start a war or anything, but every time I hear a complaint about a BLI steamer acting erratically, it's always on a DCC-powered layout. I'm strictly DC, and the only problem I've ever had with a BLI loco was a loose tender/loco connector (easily fixed, BTW). However I'm beginning to wonder, having read all of the threads, if perhaps a DC/DCC compatible loco might not have more than a few 'conversion' bugs built in--just a question. Any thought s on this?
Tom [?]

[jacon12]

Being completely electric illiterate, let me ask you guys this. Is there a way, perhaps with a meter of some sort, that you can place the 'probes' of the meter to different areas of the track and see if there are bad voltage drops? That sure would answer one part of the equation and if it wasn't a voltage drop you could go on looking for another answer.
JaRRell

[Anonymous]

I have seen my BLI's get mean and onery on a straight section of snap track from time to time. Amazing.

You can push a desiel thru just about anything. I have memories of track that had height differences of close to a half inch and gauge problems that are noticeable to the naked eye. Yet the desiel would roar thru it without a problem.

I think Spacemouse has the right idea. You can pick over your track until it is "FLAWLESS" before putting that fine high strung steamer on it.

I rather have perfect track and run anything at any speed than just temporary track in my humble opinion.

[NZRMac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

Being completely electric illiterate, let me ask you guys this. Is there a way, perhaps with a meter of some sort, that you can place the 'probes' of the meter to different areas of the track and see if there are bad voltage drops? That sure would answer one part of the equation and if it wasn't a voltage drop you could go on looking for another answer.
JaRRell

Just a volt meter, put the probes on the outside of the rail as the loco rolls by measure the volts.

I'm with Randy on the Class A huge number of wheels all picking up power. My Class J 4-8-4 including tender is longer than my SD40-2.

My turntable is unpowered so far, put the front drivers on the powered track and it pulls away.

Ken.

[Anonymous]

Jason, some locomotives are just plain picky. I found this tip on another site. A 2200 uF 25 volt electrolytic capacitor installed between the decoder, and it's power connections will solve the problem, if nothing else does. It acts like a small "battery" storing enough electricty just long enough to keep the locomotive running over small gaps in electrical current and dirt on the track.

[selector]

That sounds like a really god idea, GDS. I wonder if Randy could chime in and tell us (educate us) more on the subject.

[dinwitty]

get youself a voltmeter and make sure the power is going thruout the turnout.

The point rails may be dependent on contact on the main rail to maintain conductivity, which is a bad thing. If it loses contact, no power. The club I was in custom made turnouts and this was never a problem, and all rail turnouts/frogs.

for the engine, I have the BLI 2-6-6-4, as most issues with steamers can pickup one side of the rail on the engine and the other side with the tender.

One issue with most steamers is getting power pickup, and with a lot of mass produced steamers, the wheels are rigid. If the rails are warped, and always happens on the model and the prototype, some wheels will lose rail contact. Make sure the rear trailing truck makes current pickup and maybe the pilot also.

I have taken wire wrap wire and soldered to the various connections on locos to solidify connections, giving just enough wire length for rotation/turning.
If the curve on the turnout is too tight, you might get binding and the forces might raise the wheels off the rail.

The prototype steamers had equalized wheels, meaning they can travel over rough track.
Usually brass lokies have sprung drivers, and should have excellent pickup all the time.
Why I sometimes would prefer a brass lokie over others.
My rivarossi berkshire I sprung its drivers because of pickup problems, and get better tracking.

The 2-6-6-4 is better suited on #6 or higher turnouts.
Its a mainline engine, not a switcher. The diesels wont always have the issues like the steamers, but 6 wheel trucks or larger will show the same issues as the steamers (note DD-40)

But the key is to make sure the track is in great and level condition, the prototype has more issues trying to stay level, but the model doesnt...save for expansion/contraction.

[Anonymous]

Jarrell,

I doubt it is not the loco. These babies shouldn't have any pick up problems. Steam has problems when the tender and drivers pick up from different rails and the wheel base is short. This is common in old brass and plastic models. Bli Has all wheel pick up and I believe the tender picks up both sides. A 2-6-6-2 is so large that it shouldn't be beaching itself on a turnout. The wheel bases should extend through an un powered frog to proivide power. Larger steam like this is far less finicky about power pick up than say a 2-8-0 or 0-8-0 would be in the same situation. One thing big locos don't like is tight radius turnouts. Even though a loco this large can go through switches this small, it doesn't mean it is a good idea. I would go with no 5 or larger.

Dnwitty has the right idea. Is this a power routing switch?? If it is, you may have to jumper the points to the stock rails depending on how the switch is wired. I would try feeding the switch power from the point side with some feeders. Solder the joints leading to and from the switch and lastly (Other may disagree with this) maybe get some higher quality switches. Walthers/Shinohara, Micro Engineering, Peco all come to mind.

I sure by now you have probably solved it. Let us know...