Tortoise spring wire question

[electrolove]

I got my 12-pack of tortoises today and have a question. What hole in the walthers/shinohara code 83 turnout should I use for the spring wire? Please look at the picture, there are two holes in the turnout (red arrows). Should I use any of these holes?

[mlehman]

The holes that the arrows point to would be used if you are using a tabletop mounting. Then you would use the one that corresponded to which side the Tortoise is mounted on, with a wire reaching over to hook into the hole. I have one Tortoise mounted this way for a hidden staging track due to space restictions, with the addition of a pivot .

In most cases, you'll want to use an undertable mounting for the Tortoise. Use the holes that have grommets that are used to attach the point assembly to the tie bar in them. You then drill a hole large enough for the wire to work back and forth, located directly beneath the tie bar. This way the hole is usually totally concealed. I use a 1/4" drill bit. The metric size would be about 6 or 7 mm. I rock my drill bit carefully back and forth perpendicualr to the track in order to create an enlogated hole for the wire to pass through. This creates extra clearance for the wire to move back and forth. Then you position the Tortoise with the wire going up through the roadbed. I nip the top of the wire off flush with the tie bar once everything is in place.

Also, I use a larger diameter spring wire than is supplied with the Tortoise. This provides more pressue on the points for more effective operation, especially if you have thick roadbed. You may have to open up the pivot hole in the plastic fitting that slides up and down on the side of the Tortoise when using larger diameter wire, as well as opening up the mounting hole for the other end of the wire that goes into the black plastic drive fitting that moves the wire. You can slide this fitting up and down in its slots to adjust tension on the springwire, as needed.

You didn't indicate how you're going to mount the Tirtoise. I have used small screws in the past, but recently I've taken to using hot glue, as it is much quicker. Just be careful when you're pushing the Tortoise up against the underside of the roadbed that you don't put too much hot glue on top of the Tortoise; it can be squished out the side and run down onto your fingers as you hold it in place waiting for the glue to cool and set up.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL

[electrolove]

Do you mean these holes? (blue arrows)

QUOTE: Originally posted by mlehman

The holes that the arrows point to would be used if you are using a tabletop mounting. Then you would use the one that corresponded to which side the Tortise is mounted on, with a wire reaching over to hook into the hole. I have one Tortise mounted this way for a hidden staging track due to space restictions, with the addition of a pivot

In most cases, you'll want to use an undertable mounting for the Tortise. Use the holes that have grommets that are used to attach the point assembly to the tie bar in them. You then drill a hole large enough for the wire to work back and forth, located directly beneath the tie bar. This way the hole is usually totally concealed. I use a 1/4" drill bit. The metric size would be about 6 or 7 mm. Then you position the Tortise with the wire going up through the roadbed. I nip the top of the wire off flush with the tie bar once everything is in place.

Also, I use a larger diameter spring wire than is supplied with the Tortise. This provides more pressue on the points for more effective operation, especially if you have thick roadbed. You may have to open up the pivot hole in the plastic fitting that slides up and down on the side of the Tortise when using larger diameter wire, as well as opening up the mounting hole for the other end of the wire that goes into the black plastic drive fitting that moves the wire. You can slide this fitting up and down in its slots to adjust tension on the springwire, as needed.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL

[Anonymous]

Yes, he means those holes.

Or, if you want to center the Tortoise exactly, you can just drill a small hole in the center of the tiebar between the two grommets with a #52 drill. That size hole is fine for the springbar that comes with the Tortoise, or with the larger .035 wire that I like to use (the springbar that comes with the Tortoise is about .020 - .025 in diameter).

[mlehman]

Yes, the bliue arrows are pointing to the grommets. Those are the holes I use to stick the wire into. These are somwhat offset, but will work fine. Chose whichever one lines up best with the Tortoise underneath in the mounting location you use.

I assume this is one of the new "DCC friendly" turnouts. Most older style turnouts will have just one grommet in the middle of the tie bar.
Mike Lehman
URbana, IL

[jrbernier]

I drill a 1/6" hole at the center of the throwbar(between the blue arrows). Before I lay the turnout, I drill a 1/2" diameter hole through the roadbed under the turnout. I use the .025" wire supplied with the Tortoise, and mount the Tortoise directly under the turnout. Very simple and very reliable. Also, buy the 'edge' connectors. Sure is better than soldering wires to the PCB on the Tortoise itself. I installed 6 Tortoise's last night in about 2 hours. This was with existing trackage. I 'lifted' the turnouts, drilled the 1/2" hole, laid the turnouts again, drilled the small 1/16" hole in the throwbars, and mounted the Tortoise's underthe benchwork. Tonight I will wire up the 'harness' for each one to the edge connectors.

Jim Bernier

[electrolove]

Ok, I understand, thanks. Yes the turnout is the new DCC ready one.

QUOTE: Originally posted by mlehman

Yes, the bliue arrows are pointing to the grommets. Those are the holes I use to stick the wire into. These are somwhat offset, but will work fine. Chose whichever one lines up best with the Tortoise underneath in the mounting location you use.

I assume this is one of the new "DCC friendly" turnouts. Most older style turnouts will have just one grommet in the middle of the tie bar.
Mike Lehman
URbana, IL

[jfugate]

electro:

I drill a 1/2" hole under the turnout throwbar area, and drill a #56 hole in the middle of the throwbar. I replace the wire that comes with the Tortoise with 0.040 stiff steel wire (music wire it's sometimes called here).

I put masking tape on both sides of the ties next to the throw bar area under the turnout, so that when I put the turnout down, the masking tape covers the 1/2" hole and I can put ballast between the ties next to the throw bar. Without the masking tape, the 1/2" hole is large enough it will leave a gaping hole under the ties next to the throwbar and you won't be able to ballast there.

I show this in my video volume 2 ... I'll see if I can find a post a photo or two for you tonight.

[electrolove]

Joe:

That sounds really great. I do not want to ballast my floor [:D] Looking forward to your pictures. Thanks.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

electro:

I drill a 1/2" hole under the turnout throwbar area, and drill a #56 hole in the middle of the throwbar. I replace the wire that comes with the Tortoise with 0.040 stiff steel wire (music wire it's sometimes called here).

I put masking tape on both sides of the ties next to the throw bar area under the turnout, so that when I put the turnout down, the masking tape covers the 1/2" hole and I can put ballast between the ties next to the throw bar. Without the masking tape, the 1/2" hole is large enough it will leave a gaping hole under the ties next to the throwbar and you won't be able to ballast there.

I show this in my video volume 2 ... I'll see if I can find a post a photo or two for you tonight.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

I drill a 1/2" hole under the turnout throwbar area, and drill a #56 hole in the middle of the throwbar. I replace the wire that comes with the Tortoise with 0.040 stiff steel wire (music wire it's sometimes called here).

That's a pretty hefty wire, Joe! Do your throwbars need something that stiff to throw them completely, or are you using it to avoid problems in case a throwbar gets a little more resistant to moving over time?

I usually use the wire that comes with the Tortoise, which I think is about .025, but I have used .032 in a few places. I also have a small stock of .039 in case I have a really stiff turnout, but haven't needed to use it (yet).

[rrinker]

If you handlay turnouts and don't hinge the points, it takes a pretty stiff wire to literally 'bend the iron'. Commercial turnouts with hinges of one type or another generally move easily (except Peco with the over-center spring in them, which can be removed or disabled for better operation with Tortoise type switch motors). How far below the moving parts the Tortoise is mounted is usually the determining factor. Since I mount mine from the top in my extruded foam, I'm only going through the thickness of the roadbed, so the stock wire is PLENTY strong. If you have 3/4" plywood subroadbed, plus another layer of homosot roadbed on top of that, it gets to be quite a distance. .040 seems a bit stiff, but if it works.. I think .035 fits easier in the moving plastic arm of the Tortoise though.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I use 29 thousands wire for 3/4" subroadbed and 35 thousands for 1 1/2" subroadbed (regular roadbed and a 3/4" splice plate).

If you don't want to use the masking tape on the bottom of the turnouts you can put a piece of cardboard under the ties and over the side of the hole. The cardboard that I'm talking about is the header strip on a Digitrax decoder or the box that the switches are packaged in.

[jfugate]

I believe Andy Sperandeo told me once that he also uses 0.040 wire in the tortoises. If you use continuous points and closure rails (as in handlaid turnouts) then having a nice stiff wire helps.

I promised I would post some photos, and here they are.

First, I lay the turnout in place and mark where the throwbar goes, and mark the track centerline, forming an X on the roadbed. I take a 1/2" spade bit and drill a hole in the roadbed.

(for a larger photo: click here.)

I put masking tape on the underside of the turnout on both sides of the throwbar so it covers the hole, making it easy to later apply ballast.

(click to enlarge)

As you can see here, the masking tape completely covers the hole, making it easy to ballast the turnout later. (By the way, this is an old Shinohara turnout that's been modified to make it DCC friendly ...)

(click to enlarge)

Then I mount my EasyThrow turnout mechanism underneath, or install a tortoise, depending on if the location calls for manual turnout control or electronic turnout control.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker
Since I mount mine from the top in my extruded foam, I'm only going through the thickness of the roadbed, so the stock wire is PLENTY strong.
--Randy

i'm curious how you mount the tortoises from the top , could you explain please ?

[electrolove]

Joe:

Thanks for the nice pictures. That is a good way, so easy to ballast later.

[electrolove]

ereimer:

This is how you mount a tortoise from the top, as you can see you only need a very short wire:

[TBat55]

If you replace a Tortoise mounted below and don't want to touch the track, how do you get the wire thru the hole?
I've been using 0.032" wire, bend it+attach to Tortoise, leave 4" extra wire that I clamp from above, tighten the screws, then trim the wire off. But to do this with the supplied 0.025" short wire from below is extremely difficult.
Any neat tricks to make it easier to get the short wire thru the hole?

[Anonymous]

Terry:

I use the 36" wire and don't cut it until the tortise is mounted undernieth. I got tired of trying to get that darn short wire through the throwbar. That way I only have one short wire (per 36") to worry with, the last one. This way you also have less waste of the wire.

I purchased a twelve pack the other day only to find our that the wire, screw, and fulcrum pack was missing, I called tortise and ask them to send me the screws and fulcrums but don't waste time gathering up the wire as I didn't use it. I got my package the other day and they had put in extra screws to make up for the wire.

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

I believe Andy Sperandeo told me once that he also uses 0.040 wire in the tortoises. If you use continuous points and closure rails (as in handlaid turnouts) then having a nice stiff wire helps.

I promised I would post some photos, and here they are.

First, I lay the turnout in place and mark where the throwbar goes, and mark the track centerline, forming an X on the roadbed. I take a 1/2" spade bit and drill a hole in the roadbed.

(for a larger photo: click here.)

I put masking tape on the underside of the turnout on both sides of the throwbar so it covers the hole, making it easy to later apply ballast.

(click to enlarge)

As you can see here, the masking tape completely covers the hole, making it easy to ballast the turnout later. (By the way, this is an old Shinohara turnout that's been modified to make it DCC friendly ...)

(click to enlarge)

Then I mount my EasyThrow turnout mechanism underneath, or install a tortoise, depending on if the location calls for manual turnout control or electronic turnout control.

[^][:)]Joe; looks my drill bit,I use the same systeam,GEZZZZ I throught I was the only one useing the spade 1/2" and masking tape[:D][:D]
JIM

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker
Since I mount mine from the top in my extruded foam, I'm only going through the thickness of the roadbed, so the stock wire is PLENTY strong.
--Randy

i'm curious how you mount the tortoises from the top , could you explain please ?

I use no plywood, just the foam on top. Someone posted the original pictures where I got the idea in a different topic here recently - I first saw the idea on the web site of the North California FREEMO modular group, and I have pictures of mine on my web site in the Construction section. Basically a mount the Tortoise to a square of perf board from Radio Shack, use a router bit on the Dremel (although not the actual router attachment - it's too big to fit in close spaces) to slice out a recess the thickness of the perf board, and then use a knife to cut a square fromt he foam to fit the body of the Tortoise. The Tortoise assembly is dropped in, and the roadbed and track laid over top.

--Randy

Edit: Oh well, I see he posted it here too. It was taking too long for all the pictures to load so I just replied without waiting for it all.

[mcouvillion]

Why is there a preference to throwing the switch from the center of the turnout? The original picture showed holes outside the rails on the throwbar that should do an adequate job of moving the points when activated from below. Joe Fugate's technique should work just fine whether centered between the rails or off to one side. Under-table clearances may dictate that you HAVE to use the offset method. I would think it would be easier to ballast if you used a small piece of cardstock over the 1/2" hole, or tape if you remember to put it on the bottom of the turnout before you mount it, and it doesn't interfere with the throw.

Electrolove's "drop-from-the-top" technique is interesting but I can envision a multitude of maintenance issues. I guess once the perf-board is installed and the whole thing is aligned, it should be easy enough to access and change out a Tortoise from below. I like the precision with which he cut the hole for the assembly.

There seems to be a preponderance to say "We've always done it this way". Just because you "...have always done it this way" doesn't mean you have EVER done it right. There are several neat ideas in this thread. I'll have to adopt the ones that are clever enough to really work long term, and pitch the rest.

Mark C.

[ereimer]

ahhh ! i really like the from-the-top method . i'm going to try that when i do my test section (soon i hope!)

i understand using a router bit in a dremel to cut the recess for the perf board , i'm not sure how you get such noce square corners though

[rrinker]

Well I'd like to know how THEY get nice square corners myself - because mine certainly aren't. But it doesn't seem to matter. I use the router but and the cutoff attachment - the small router-like nose that makes the Dremel like a Roto-Zip. I hold the Dremel in one hand and the Shop-Vac hose in the other to contain the static-laden foam dust. Plus by keepign the dust out I can see my lines and cut right up to them, but since it's all freehand, it's not perfectly straight. Some sort of template might work, but that requires extreme accuracy in planning as the template would be too big to fit if adjacent tracks were already in place. Even the Roto-Zip attachment thing is too big in parallel track situations, so I end up doing those completely freehand - so even the depth varies a bit. And working ahead to avoid the adjacent track is tough - I almost messed up trying to cut all the indentations for the yard in one shot - even with all the track in place temporarily to allow for marking the locations for the Tortoises, it still was a bit off once I cut them all and started fastening down the track.
Maybe a big square block attached to a soldering gun - melt the foam like a hot knife. Or a hot wire type of thing the correct width, insert at one edge, slide over to other mark, lift out - perfect little square.

--Randy

[electrolove]

The pictures I posted about the 'from the top' method is not my pictures. Just 'borrowed' them. Same source as Randy I think. But I will try the same method myself. I will cut the hole in this way:

1 - Mount the tortoise on a piece of 7 mm plywood
2 - Lay it down and mark the location with a pen on the foam
3 - Mark and cut the inner hole (vertical) for the tortoise all way down the foam
4 - Use masking tape on the foam knife to mark where 7 mm is
5 - Cut the outer hole (vertical) 7 mm deep, this is what the tape is for
6 - Draw a line around the inner hole and cut (horizontal) to the outer hole and cut (maybe with a razorblade)

This was hard to explain, I'm a Swede you know... [:p]

I'm going to drill a big hole in the plywood and use tape on the turnout (as Joe suggested). That is a very good idea.

I think it will be pretty good that way, but I can be wrong [:D]

[electrolove]

First tortoise done and it was a pain in the ***... But it worked out fine in the end. [:D]

Everything was pretty easy until it was time to cut the outer hole. I could not reach the hole at the right angle with my foam knife (horizontal cut). So I was forced to use a raxorblade and that was not easy either. Can someone please tell me a better and easier way to cut the outer hole?

[tsasala]

I did mine from the bottom and I think that's better should you ever have to replace the unit. Then you don't need to destroy your track work to change the switch machine.

-Tom

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

First tortoise done and it was a pain in the ***... But it worked out fine in the end. [:D]

Everything was pretty easy until it was time to cut the outer hole. I could not reach the hole at the right angle with my foam knife (horizontal cut). So I was forced to use a raxorblade and that was not easy either. Can someone please tell me a better and easier way to cut the outer hole?

Dremel.

You need some sort of routing bit to cut a recess, you can't do that very easily with a knife of any sort.

--Randy

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tsasala

I did mine from the bottom and I think that's better should you ever have to replace the unit. Then you don't need to destroy your track work to change the switch machine.

-Tom

I've never seen one fail, not any of mine, nor any of the 200 or so at the club I used to belong to. IF they fail, it's goign t be such a rare occurence I'm not worried about it. And all I have to do is slide back the joiners and liftout the entire turnout, roadbed, and Tortoise. I COULD use a long screwdriver to unscrew the Tortoise mount from underneath, but that would probably take more effort than pulling the turnout assembly and then touching up the ballast after replacing it.
Actually, it's all similar to the Peco switch machines, which clamp on the bottom of the turnout.

--Randy