Benchwork ponderings

[SpaceMouse]

I've heard a lot about building benchwork and people talk about using light-weight soft woods for framework. Having been a contractor and in the building trades for years, unless you buy expensinve clear grain, this wood varies from bow to licorice stick to pretzel. It seems to me only prudent to use lumber you know is perfectly straight to achieve a level table top and this to me means cutting your supports out of 3/4" plywood.

The advantage of this would be that it will be as straight as you can cut--I use a level clamped as a straight edge--and significantly stronger than same-sized fir or white pine. Yet, I don't recall anyone talking about this. My debate, is whether to go with plywood or steel.

I go back and forth in my head.

[Anonymous]

Chip,

Our modular club recommends 3/4" paint-grade plywood be ripped to 4" for all major structural pieces of the modules. Legs are 2x2. Decking is minimum 2" extruded (pink or blue) styrofoam that sits on corner gussets. Modules bigger than 2x4 feet may have a cross-member, also cut from 3/4" ply.

We used to recommend 1x4 (nominal) clear pine, but the plywood is more economical, stronger, easy to work with, and overall more stable.

You can get the lumber yard to rip it for you - the cuts will come out straight if they use the big wall mounted saw (name escapes me...). Get it cut into 4" strips. You can do the gussets and anything else you might need with a table saw, mitre saw, or whatever you have at home.

Andrew

[selector]

If kiln-dried lumber is still dry when you purchase it , and still straight, then I don't see why it wouldn't do. My builders' store went through about thirty 10" 2X4's, eyeballing each, until they felt that I was getting the eight that I needed.

That said, I would agree that ripped 5/8" or bigger would do very nicely, Mouse.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar


You can get the lumber yard to rip it for you - the cuts will come out straight if they use the big wall mounted saw (name escapes me...). Get it cut into 4" strips. You can do the gussets and anything else you might need with a table saw, mitre saw, or whatever you have at home.

Andrew

Thanks for the validation. I know the saw, but most places I know charge $.25 a cut after the first couple.

Using a level and vice-grip type clamps and a good circular (I use a Skill 77 worm drive) You can cut what you need pretty quickly. It is so straight that I use this method that I used it for cabinet work. If you want to get really fancy there's a 4 foot clamp that just pops into place in second.

Who's used steel.

[Anonymous]

I bought the better grade, can't remember what they call that, and I had to go threw a lot of lumber to find straight ones. If I was to do it over, I would do the plywood ripping instead.

I really wish I would have read more and lurked the MR forums and others before starting my layout, though I did buy about every book from Kalmbach on benchwork, wiring, scenery etc. They did help a lot, though I think a lot of what they have in print is a couple of years out of date on some items.

With all this knowledge you ahev soaked up Spacemouse, you should have one craftsman style layout [:)]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dthurman

With all this knowledge you ahev soaked up Spacemouse, you should have one craftsman style layout [:)]

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

It's one thing to talk a good game, another to execute. With me it's a constant battle between Git-er-done and patience.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse



It's one thing to talk a good game, another to execute. With me it's a constant battle between Git-er-done and patience.

I think you have the patience part down! I could wait to start laying track and getting a train earning money [:p]

[loathar]

Somebody posted pics of their steel bench work a while back and it was something I wanted to try. I went to Loews, Home Depot and 84 Lumber, and they all looked at me like I was from Mars when I asked for them.Any ideas where to get those things?

[Anonymous]

What?!?! You gotta be jokin. At the Ace Hardware in the town closest to me, they got one guy that stands there all day long cuttin wood people bought there. FOR FREE.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar


You can get the lumber yard to rip it for you - the cuts will come out straight if they use the big wall mounted saw (name escapes me...). Get it cut into 4" strips. You can do the gussets and anything else you might need with a table saw, mitre saw, or whatever you have at home.

Andrew

Thanks for the validation. I know the saw, but most places I know charge $.25 a cut after the first couple.

Using a level and vice-grip type clamps and a good circular (I use a Skill 77 worm drive) You can cut what you need pretty quickly. It is so straight that I use this method that I used it for cabinet work. If you want to get really fancy there's a 4 foot clamp that just pops into place in second.

Who's used steel.

[SpaceMouse]

They were just starting to use steel studs when I left the business in the early nineties. IT was used more by commercial builders than residential, therefore, you might not find it a Lowes. You will have to go to a lumber yard or builder's supply that caters to contractors (and don't be afraid to dicker.)

[Bob Hayes]

I guess you don't remember the article a few months ago in MR about using steel studs?

Bob Hayes

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

I guess you don't remember the article a few months ago in MR about using steel studs?

Bob Hayes

I read the article, and it certainly made me wonder. I especially like the concept that it is virtually free of weather effects. But for me to use this technology, I have to learn a new material and possibly purchase a new set of tools. I'd rather base my judgment on many experiences rather than that single one.

Certainly though, the article makes a powerful argument.

[Anonymous]

They've got steel studs at both Lowe's and HD in Tucson. They are hiding them a bit, but they are there.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

The plywood should be considerably more dimensionally stable than the 1x lumber, no matter what the grade. My concern, while we are on the subject, is screwing into the ends and sides of the plywood. I've never been thrilled with the results of that.

Jeff

[Bob Hayes]

Jeff,
It's not bad if you pre-drill all the holes. You could also use biscuts and glue, with a brad nailer thrown in.

Chip,
About all you need for steel studs is a hacksaw, and self drilling, self taping screws.

Bob Hayes

[Anonymous]

Biscuits and gravy, perhaps! Predrilling might get old, but then again, there isn't that much of it to do. The steel sounds good in a lot of ways. My current scheme, which I hope to have ready for public derision soon, has an area of rather tight clearance between two levels, so a sturdy plywood frame might come in handy.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

Jeff,
It's not bad if you pre-drill all the holes. You could also use biscuts and glue, with a brad nailer thrown in.

Chip,
About all you need for steel studs is a hacksaw, and self drilling, self taping screws.

Bob Hayes

How about a Sawsall with a metal blade. (I hate manual labor--More power Arruughhh--Arruughhh--Arruughhh )

[Anonymous]

In the MR article I think they used tin snips. (In at least one, I think there may have been another later.)

Jeff

[johncolley]

One thing that needs to be mentioned: With fairly straight grain lumber you can pilot drill and screw into the edge...don't try it with plywood.

[Adelie]

The biggest problem I had finding straight lumber was the 2x2s. I went through a shelf full of them at Lowes to find about 6 or 8 of them. For whatever reason, they seem to twist like crazy. I had much better luck with 1x4s and 1x3s.

Steel sounds interesting, but I've never worked with it. I'd be a little concerned about the increased risk of shorts if the wiring gets nicked, but that is a manageable risk. The other thing I remember reading is to be sure to cover the edges (potentially sharp). I think they said duct tape works wonders for that.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johncolley

One thing that needs to be mentioned: With fairly straight grain lumber you can pilot drill and screw into the edge...don't try it with plywood.

If you were to 3/4 marine grade or exterior grade it would be no problem. The glues are the issue. Don't try it with CDX, you'll split the wood along the glue lines.

I know this is blasphemy, but I may throw 1x2 cleats along the rim joist and nail gun the benchwork together. I can do it in 1/3 the time and it will be plenty strong. I know the argument is that you can take out the screws, but realistically how often you really do that. I can take a Sawsall and cut the nails as fast as anyone can take out a screw. When all is said and done, I can putty the nail holes and finish with paint or stain.

[Anonymous]

Chip,
Isn't the X in CDX for exterior?

Jeff

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by baldwinjl

Chip,
Isn't the X in CDX for exterior?

Jeff

No, that is a misconception

QUOTE:

Exposure Durability Classifications

Exterior Panels intended to exposure to the weather. D grade veneer may not be used in Exterior panels. Contrary to a common misconception, CDX is not an exterior panel.
Exterior plywood is not necessarily the best choice where plywood will be constantly exposed to the weather; plywood pressure-treated with preservative would probably be better.

Exposure 1 The glue is the same as that used for Exterior plywood, but other characteristics that affect bonding are not. These panels are for use in high moisture condition or where, during construction, long delays may be expected before the panel is protected from the elements.

Exposure 2 Same glue. The wood itself is a bit worse and the panel less rugged.

Interior A different glue is used. Plywood in the other exposure classifications can act as a vapor barrier if glued and nailed; interior plywood cannot. For use only in protected areas indoors.


[/b]Veneer Grades[/b]

N A premium grade (for natural finish), available on special order from some manufacturers. Either 100% heartwood or 100% sapwood. Repairs must be made with well-matched wood parallel to the grain, and only 6 are permitted in a 4 foot by 8 foot panel.

A Smooth, paintable surface. Not more than 18 neatly made repairs, which must be parallel to the grain, and of the boat, sled, or router type. Repairs with synthetic patching compound are permitted in this as well as all lesser grades.

B Shims, circular repair plugs, and tight knots as large as 1 inch measured across the grain are permitted, as well as minor splits.

C plugged Splits may be no wider than 1/8 inch, and knotholes and borer holes no larger than ¼ inch by ½ inch. Some broken grain is allowed.

C Tight knots as large as 1½ inch, discoloration and sanding defects that do not affect strength, and stitching are permitted.

D Knots and knotholes as wide as 2½ inch measured across the grain and even larger (within limits) in other directions. Splits and stitching permitted.

CDX would be a C grade veneer on one side and a D grade on the other with an interior glue. For our purposes, this is also the one with big knots and loose grain in the interior ply sheets, causing the inability to hold the screw a previously mentioned.

For more info: http://www.sizes.com/materls/plywood_softwood.htm#Veneer_grades

[loathar]

Hey Space- You priced marine grade plywood lately?[:O] Maybe i"m missing something here, but how come everybody uses 1by 4 or 1 by 3's. Why not use good old cheap 2 by 4's?

[Anonymous]

HMMM, learn something new every day....

[Anonymous]

Of course after applying my single grey cell, CD plywood wouldn't be a good choice anyway. I'm thinking maybe AC exterior? Possibly BC exterior?

Jeff

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

Hey Space- You priced marine grade plywood lately?[:O] Maybe i"m missing something here, but how come everybody uses 1by 4 or 1 by 3's. Why not use good old cheap 2 by 4's?

No I haven't. But I don't think it is availible around here anyway. I was thinking ABX, but even that is close to $40 a sheet.

I can understand using 2x4 to save money, but straight they're not. Don't get my wrong, with a planer and a few tricks I can make 2x4's or 1x3 pretty close to flat. But it's just so much easier with the plywood.

[loathar]

Marine grade was $60 to $80 a sheet 15 years ago.(wood boats ain't cheap)
I don't have much of a warping problem with 2 by 4's. I was thinking more about under table access for switch machines on lines close to the edge of the layout.Anybody have bad expeiriances like that?

[jwar]

Hi Chip.
Being that you have the construction experience behind you, good bracing practices, and wood working skills, I would strongley suggest go for it with Kiln lumber. Save the steel prices and get rolling stock with what you save.

I think where some go wrong with wood frames is the proplems caused by using a hammer and shaking it to death, use verious lenghts of drywall screws, battery screw driver, miter saw, perhaps another 1/4 drill with a relief counterbore drill and I bet with your stated skills, You probley have the tools to do it now...it's a two day job and your laying track next monday.

Besides were not supporting a great amount of weight on top of the layout, over kill is good to a point, then it gets priceeeeeeie..take care...John

[jrbernier]

If I build a new layout, I plan to use 3/4" plywood. Home Depot will rip it into 1 by 4's for .25 a cut - still cheaper than dimensional lumber. The 'West Side' logging layout that was at a lot of train shows was built using 3/4" plywood, IIRC - and was rock solid even with all the moves to train shows.
I saw that article in MR a few months ago - I am impressed.......

Jim Bernier