soooo, what was this big announcement MTH was going to make...

[Anonymous]

I don't think Mr. Wolf will need to borrow any money to get the Lionel name. They already owe him 41 mil plus legal fees and damages. Wellspring will be glad to hand Lionel over to MTH to avoid anymore litigation.

[nblum]

Mr. Wolf's legal verdict counts pretty much for zero in the purchase price of Lionel. None of Lionel's owners are on the hook for this sum in any case. Wellspring does not own Lionel by the way, they manage the investment. Lionel is owned by the estate/family of Martin Davis, Neil Young and Richard Kughn. I wouldn't take everything Tony Lash says about these issues as gospel. Sometimes he is just blowing smoke :).

In any case, the consolidation of Lionel and MTH may be Mr. Wolf's fondest wish, but it would in all likelihood accelerate the already underway contraction of the three rail train hobby for all sorts of reasons. It would be the saddest day in the history Lionel since the sale of the original company to Roy Cohn's people in the late 1960s, and have similar influence on the industry. So you'd better pray it never happens. If it does there are going to be a lot of dealers out of business over the next five years.

[Anonymous]

nblum,

I think it would be best that a guy with toy trains in his blood gets ownership of Lionel. Wellspring is nothing but a bunch of bean counters. Neil Young would have to play a lot of concerts and release a dozen albums to pay Mike off.

[nblum]

Neil Young will never owe Mike Wolf any money because Lionel is a corporate entity. Mr. Young is insulated from any claims Mike Wolf might make on him. On the other hand Mr. Young is probably distinctly peeved at Mr. Wolf for trying to take away his property with a lawsuit of dubious merit. In any case, Mr. Young, in my opinion, has contributed more importantly to the hobby than Mike Wolf ever will. He was the driving force behind bringing command control and high quality sound to three rail locomotives with his company Liontech. Mike Wolf's company followed that with DCS, six years later, and benefiting from the presence of one of the members of the TMCC design team who went to work for him on DCS.

[Anonymous]

Well, why did CTT magazine name Mike Wolf as the most significant person in O gauge since JLC? I believe it was in CTT's 15th anniversary issue. I believed every word I read and so did most open minded people. Even Jerry Williams will praise Mike.

[cjcrescent]

The disscussion of how much money owed to MTH by Lionel still hasn't really been decided has it. Didn't Lionel appeal the verdict? If so nothing has really been decided until the appeals court hears the case and decides. And doesn't this just lead to possibly another appeal and even longer time delays in settlement?

[nblum]

Neil Young isn't a CTT advertiser and doesn't call attention to himself, whereas Mike Wolf is an advertiser and does an excellent job getting his message across? I also believe Richard Kughn had as important or more important an impact on three rail O gauge in the last twenty years as Mike Wolf. Like Mike Wolf he doubled the size of the market, and reinvigorated the interest in three rail O gauge, pretty much saving Lionel from its doldrums in the mid-1980s. I'd rank Mike Wolf tied with Kughn or third after these two guys in terms of importance.

[nblum]

The appeal has been filed some time ago. I believe routine, mandatory court sanctioned attempts to settle the case before an actual hearing of the appeal are underway or about to get underway.

[Anonymous]

Well, *** Maddox left Lionel because he knew he couldn't compete with MTH. He's now at Atlas and he's found out that Atlas O isn't flying. MTH has them beat hands down.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

The appeal has been filed some time ago. I believe routine, mandatory court sanctioned attempts to settle the case before an actual hearing of the appeal are underway or about to get underway.

There will be a settlement very soon with Mike Wolf getting control of Lionel. The Wellspring clients want a fast settlement without further litigation. They already owe 41 mil plus legal fees and damages.

[cjcrescent]

Neil;
This is my point exactly. If Lionel or MTH doesn't settle prior to the appeal, then a higher court hears it. They render a decision and boom, another appeal is made and the litigants are basically back to square one.No decision, no settlement, back to court one mo' time! Which seems to me that we actually could be years away from a final decision one way or another.

No I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV either. With all apologies to our esteemed Mr. Kelly, it just seems that the only ones who will benefit in the long run are the law firms.

[Anonymous]

Neil is a well known Lionel apologist who will bash MTH whenever this issue comes up. He claims to have insider knowledge of the legal proceedings that are in question. Tony Lash is the one with the straight scoop. You can read the court transcripts on his website: www.tonylashexpress.com

[nblum]

Tony Lash isn't exactly a disinterested party. He's a close friend of Mike Wolf. I'm just an average everyday hobbyist :). At least Tony and I use our actual names, unlike some here who probably are MTH employees, dealers or Friends of Mike masquerading as hobbiests.

[Anonymous]

Just go here www.tonylashexpress.com and click on "News" on the left hand side. It's public record. The court transcripts that Neil and his cronies at Lionel don't want you to read.

[dharmon]

So far....regardless of what have may have happened in the past, you are convincing me more and more that I won't be buying any MTH in the future.......one customer down.....

[countershot]

i would take the dcs over tmcc any day.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Well, why did CTT magazine name Mike Wolf as the most significant person in O gauge since JLC? I believe it was in CTT's 15th anniversary issue. I believed every word I read and so did most open minded people.

Guitar world magazine once named Jimi Hendrix the most significant musician since Motzart. I agreed. Does it make Hendrix the most significant?

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by countershot

i would take the dcs over tmcc any day.

Amen brother... Let's see... Do I want a Fisher Price looking toy that feels clunky and cheap (Aristo Crafts system is nicer IMO), or a highly refined control system with very cool features including the ability to operate locomotives designed to work with the Fisher Price system (and not the other way around)?

Yeah, that's a really tough decision to make.... [;)]

[Anonymous]

if you guys stop for one second and read the part where Mthrules says "Well, why did CTT magazine name Mike Wolf as the most significant person in O gauge since JLC? I believe it was in CTT's 15th anniversary issue. I believed every word I read and so did most open minded people. Even Jerry Williams will praise Mike." for 1 he believes every word he reads so he's either retarded, senile, or worse. Secondly reading everything you read is not "being open minded" it's well, see above.

[nblum]

If DCS is so superior to TMCC, why did OGRR Forum members prefer TMCC to DCS 4:1 in an informal survey three years or so after DCS's introduction? Not a scientific poll, but a reasonable measure of the popularity of the two systems. Admittedly, TMCC has been around much longer, but the simple fact is that only those who insist on PS2 locos from MTH, which is less than 25% of the market, need DCS. For everyone else, it's an unnecessary expense and, in any case, it's not the best thing since sliced bread (unless you must have PS2 locos, in which case, it is :). HO and N folks will be staying with DCC is my almost certain conclusion. MTH's bull in a china shop approach to the hobby and industry pretty much puts paid to any real chance they had for short term success in the smaller scales, IMO. That's not anyone's fault but their own, however much their employees using obscure screen names, trolls and partisans try to blame those like me, or other hobbiests who have protested their business practices for many years in the three rail world.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

If DCS is so superior to TMCC, why did OGRR Forum members prefer TMCC to DCS 4:1 in an informal survey three years or so after DCS's introduction? Not a scientific poll, but a reasonable measure of the popularity of the two systems.

I don't know the answer to that, but I'll take a shot... Probably because the poll was answered primarily by men over the age of 50 (the majority of 3-rail users and members of that forum), an age group frought with people who have difficultly using new technologies (not a blanket statement mind you as I know some very forward thinking older guys). Tell you what, the next time they take that poll, they should do it with age categories. I think you would be really suprised at the resulting figures for the under forty group... [;)]

Besides, since when did winning a popular opinion poll ever signify that something was a better product... [?]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The negative stuff you read about MTH are lies. They'll do well in the HO market once people see the high quality of their products and the advantage of DCS.

MTH Rules, Mystic,

Gentlemen,

You have to realize that when you make posts like the quote just above, all you're doing is ticking off many other modelers. As I just stated on the "Facts" thread comments like these don't help MTH at all! They turn off people. As I stated on the other thread, modelers from AROUND THE PLANET are on this forum. "Potential Customers" that MTH loses thanks to trolling.

I remember a "newbie" about 3 or 4 months ago that chimed in and wanted to know what the issues were. The trolls did a good job of making sure that he won't be buying MTH products. Do you see my point?

Constructive answers, such as the ones provided by Jnichols, provide good input that can be used as reference when modelers decide to buy products.

As before..............Nuff Said. [8D][:D]

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Constructive answers, such as the ones provided by Jnichols, provide good input that can be used as reference when modelers decide to buy products.

As before..............Nuff Said. [8D][:D]

Thanks Antonio... [:D]

[ben10ben]

And this 17 year old prefers TMCC to DCS. Why?

Well, for one thing, I enjoy tinkering with and upgrading my trains. I can upgrade an engine to TMCC for $80 if I do the work myself, and add sound at a later date should I so desire for about the same amout of money. With my budget, that fits in a little bit better than a single $200 chunk of change. I've also paid as little as $20 each for dummy boards to control lights and couplers, which simply don't exist with DCS. My only engines with flywheels installed(required for DCS) came with TMCC already installed anyway, and I'm certainly not going to remove a perfectly working and superior sounding sound and control system to get a few more bells and whistles.

In addition, should I be so inclined to write my own computer program to control my trains, all I would have to do is flip to the last few pages of the TMCC manual and it's all there for me. Or I could just buy one of the already existing programs, which, again, don't exist for DCS.

Finally, I don't like Mike Wolf's business practices, and wouldn't even own one of his boxcars given the option.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

And this 17 year old prefers TMCC to DCS. Why?

Well, for one thing, I enjoy tinkering with and upgrading my trains. I can upgrade an engine to TMCC for $80 if I do the work myself, and add sound at a later date should I so desire for about the same amout of money. With my budget, that fits in a little bit better than a single $200 chunk of change. I've also paid as little as $20 each for dummy boards to control lights and couplers, which simply don't exist with DCS. My only engines with flywheels installed(required for DCS) came with TMCC already installed anyway, and I'm certainly not going to remove a perfectly working and superior sounding sound and control system to get a few more bells and whistles.

While I agree with you on some points, I don't on others. While I agree the sound systems in SOME of the locomotives are better, most of the prime movers are very cheesy compared with the PS2 locomotives (for example most diesel locomotives have 8 throttle notches, not 4), and if I don't like the particular locomotives sound files, I simply upload a different one. Also, while the Lionel Odyssey speed control system is ok (especially on the newer locomotives), it doesn't even hold a candle to the speed control setup MTH employs. These are just opinions I realize, but it seems to me like you are focusing on the TMCC equipment, and not the command system itself. Keep in mind I also have several TMCC equipped locomotives and a ton of third party TMCC control boards, but I still prefer to use the DCS system to control my trains and accesories. Call me nutty!

QUOTE: In addition, should I be so inclined to write my own computer program to control my trains, all I would have to do is flip to the last few pages of the TMCC manual and it's all there for me. Or I could just buy one of the already existing programs, which, again, don't exist for DCS.

I have already written an emulator that works wonderfully with the DCS system, so it can be done, just not as easily. You are correct about third party computer control sofware packages however. Hopefully MTH will release the protocol to others allowing for third party software to be written.

QUOTE: Finally, I don't like Mike Wolf's business practices, and wouldn't even own one of his boxcars given the option.

To each his own I guess. Remember that many of us feel that Lionel's business practices are just as scrupulous, or worse. Besides, I prefer Atlas boxcars to either Lionel's or MTH's... [;)]

[nblum]

Besides, since when did winning a popular opinion poll ever signify that something was a better product.

No doubt. But the reality is that there are many reasons people choose a particular product. For six years, the reason was that TMCC was available and DCS was vaporware or not even on the horizon. Then MTH released the system and it was clear it would be proprietary for the time being and no one else (K-Line, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail) was going to be using it. Then it was three times as expensive to get started as TMCC. Finally, early reports showed that unlike TMCC, which is reasonably bullet, if not idiot proof, DCS could be quite finicky on some layouts, and was significantly more complex to install and troubleshoot in many people's hands. The fact that it was whizzier, had a nicer handheld with a display and had many more sound features and other functions have not yet outweighed the other factors. So what is the best system? Depends on who's answering the question and what their priorities, goals and talents are. I'm way over 50 and have used both systems, and I prefer TMCC for some of the reasons mentioned. Other's mileage, including yours differs.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

Well, *** Maddox left Lionel because he knew he couldn't compete with MTH. He's now at Atlas and he's found out that Atlas O isn't flying. MTH has them beat hands down.

MTHrules,

Just curious. Atlas O isn't flying? Hmmmmmmmm. Seriously, where did you get this info from? Again, I suggest to you that when you post comments like this.....think.....is this winning MTH any customers? Or pushing potential ones further away?

I'm responding to your comment because at a crowded train show in the fall of 2004, I saw a pair of beautiful, sound equipped Atlas O scale CSX GE locomotives pulling a long freight train on a large layout. The hoppers in the train were loaded with rocks........REAL ROCKS! Though the sound system was aftermarket the sounds were excellent! The headlights were blinding...just like the prototypes. My friends and I were pleasantly stunned!

Though I'm not an O scaler, IMHO these "muscle machines" were very impressive![8D]..........the big crowd gathered around the layout asking the smiling operators [:D] plenty of questions sure didn't seem to think that Atlas "wasn't flying". It was interesting that there were no layouts featuring MTH equipment.............or at least I didn't see any. Did see RailKing products for sale, though.

Top it off, Atlas signed a licensing agreement with Union Pacific and CSX back in 2004. So looks like Atlas is pushing forward. I don't know of Atlas' current sales volume, but from what I've seen in LHS stores, Atlas is not pullng out of the O-Scale market anytime soon!

So unless you have some FACTS, your comments will likely be dismissed.

I'm not dissing you......but hoping you see the point. [;)] You're still a fellow hobbyist so instead of hurling flameballs, just discuss your points. You will see that respect will come crusing in. Just look at JNIchols' examples.

Peace out.

[Anonymous]

Just on general principle, I would never buy any MTH or Rail King product. The more venom he spews the more I'm appalled.

[Anonymous]

Who in the hell cares? If MTH wants to get into the HO market, what's the big deal? Some of you diehard narrow minded rivet counters need to give this a rest and wait to see what they come out with. If the products are poor quality, then take your shots. Until then, just cool it![soapbox]

[AggroJones]

This 'Mike Wolf' is going to be at Caboose Hobbies in Denver, Colorado on July 25th .

I wonder how that appeance is going to turn out.