Folded paper towels

[electrolove]

I went to the train station today (where else) and found some very "cheap" folded paper towels. [:D]

I will make some scenery experiment with plaster, towels and see where it takes me.



I have never done this before so help is always welcome.

[Anonymous]

First you have to make a rough pattern on you layout for the towels to lay on and then you mix up some plaster and water - very thin. Dip the towels in the plaster/water and place on the layout with a half area lap. If it's not thick enought just come back later and add another layer. Be sure and spray water on the first layer or the second layer will set to quickly.

[electrolove]

TEFFY:

How many parts of plaster and water should I mix? To get it very thin as you suggested.

Thanks for your answer.

[pcarrell]

Think milk, not broth.

[electrolove]

pcarell:

Thin as milk? Can you please give me some numbers instead? The normal mix for my plaster is 1 part water and 2 parts of plaster. That is thick. So to get a very thin mix, how many parts do you suggest of water and plaster?

[pcarrell]

I just add water until I get it about like milk. If you are planning on doing any carving on it then you might want to lean more towards thin pancake batter. I don't really have an exact ratio, I just wing it. Sorry if this isn't much help, I didn't mean to confuse the issue.

[electrolove]

pcarell:

Thats ok. No problem [:D]

Maybe someone else can give me the parts?

[selector]

Electrolove, the mixture should not slip off the paper and pool everywhere but where you want it...on the paper! So I disagree with making it too thin, but it should not be spreadable like butter. It should have the consistency of tomato soup, pea soup, a bit lighter than tomato juice.

If you mix your plaster with 1 part water and 2 parts plaster, you should still end up with a fairly runny mixture. If not, add 1/4 part water until you get something like pea soup or thin pancake batter, as pcarrell states.

[jfugate]

By the way, electro, what are you using for your scenery base?

I really like the cardboard strips and masking tape technique, but I'm curious what you're doing?

[electrolove]

Look at these 2 pictures and tell me what you think. I mixed 2 parts of water with 1 part plaster. Maybe that was more water then I needed.



The second picture shows a problem. I just used the paper towel as is, and you can see the result in this picture.



The joints between the different towels is very visable. But I'm just experimenting at the moment so it's no big deal.

Suggestions what to do to make everything better?

[electrolove]

Joe:

The base is just scrumbled paper and tape. But on the real thing I'm working with foam, but I want to use plaster over the foam to get a better look. You can see my benchwork here.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39677

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

By the way, electro, what are you using for your scenery base?

I really like the cardboard strips and masking tape technique, but I'm curious what you're doing?

[ARTHILL]

I have done that over screen. Too thick gets difficult but carves well. Too thin takes a second coat, but I scoop thick plaster on later to carve rocks. A exact mixture is imposible for plasters vary as does humidity. Also if you are putting the toweling over paper or other plaster wet it first and have it a little thiner. Over screen just so it doesn't drip through. There is an excelent series of articles in MR from 12/49 - 2/50. That is old, but good.

Its my favorite part of the hobby so have fun. You can't be wrong, only differnt.

Art

[mcouvillion]

Electrolove,

I had never worked with wet plaster towels until recently. Yeah, you want it pretty thin. I'm a chemist and was wondering what was really going on. You need to make a "suspension" of the plaster particles in the water so that there is enough plaster in the towel when it dries to make it stiff, but not enough plaster in the water that it all settles to the bottom of the mix pan. You do NOT want to make a paste with it. The mix is quite a bit thinner than you would expect, but once you get it right, you'll know. With the stuff we used (I'm not sure of the brand) we had about 10 - 12 minutes working with it before the stuff in the mix pan began to change consistency and set up. Try not to make more than you need, 'cause once it gets to that stage, it isn't good for anything. We actually double-layered the paper towels and had one guy mixing and dipping, and one guy applying. It went real fast and turned out great. I was surprised at how strong the stuff is once set. We added a second layer of paper towels the next day, and the rest is history.

Good luck,

Mark C.

[selector]

Electrolove, you are doing fine. The joins can be covered with normally mixed plaster later, when you need to cover it...IF you need to cover it.

So, you need now to build 'forms' over which ytou will lay these plaster-covered papers. You can use Joe's method of cardboard strips hot glued or stapled, taped....shaped to form the base and structure of a hill. Or you can use 'chicken wire', light fencing wire like what you might use to keep ckickens in a coop, even crumpled up newspapers or...TA DAAA!...some of your paper towels. Your choice, they all work.

Note that, once you have formed a hard shell of plaster towels over your hills, the joins that you are concerned about in the second pic are not especially difficult to cover with latex paint and ground foam during your scenic phase. If they bother you, use more plaster.

Very important! Each added layer of towels or spatulad plaster must be placed on PRE-WETTED plaster. Otherwise, the dry stuff will suck all of the moisture out of the new stuff, and the new stuff won''t have time to set. So, spray the heck out of the dry layer first....only where needed, of course.

P.S. - Where else but the train station would you go for those towels?! [%-)][:o)]

[jfugate]

electro:

Okay, then you are using good old hardshell scenery techniques introduced by Linn Westcott in the 1960s. Good stuff ... used it a lot myself.

I started using paper towels, but didn't like the bumpy texture so I took to using pieces of brown paper sack torn into palm sized pieces. Plus the sacks are basically free.

From your photos, elctro, looks like your plaster mix was too thin. I like to use patching plaster, which takes about 30-40 minutes to set up, and mix it with plaster of paris, which takes about 5-10 minutes to set up.

Plaster of paris sets up too fast and patching plaster sets up too slow. But if you mix them 50-50 or so, you get a mix that sets up in about 15-20 minutes, which is *just right*.

Mix the plaster until it's about the consistency of cake batter. Thick and somewhat runny. It's thick enough it will stay on the paper but thin enough to level out into a smooth layer. I put on two coats of the plaster-dipped paper, then follow up with a thicker plaster coat I brush on to smooth out imperfections and any paper texture that might be showing through.

And prewet the previous coat thoroughly with water first from a spray bottle so the lower layer doesn't steal moisture from the new layer and cause it to set up prematurely.

But I can't resist making a plug here for my latest methods ... I can do most of what I need with one thick coat of the vemiculite mix over the masking tape, rather than three separate coats as before. Sometimes I'll need a smoothing coat over the vermiculite base, but even then it goes faster than the hardshell method, and the result is easy to plant trees in without needing to use a drill.

[electrolove]

Joe:

What do you think about this idea?

Chicken wire to make the basic scenery. Then your masking tape over the wire. Then finish with your vermiculite mix or plaster dipped paper towels?

I also have another question for you. I can get vermiculite here in Sweden that is 1-2 mm in size. Is it possible to crush and strain it so I just get 1 mm or less left? That would solve my vermiculite problem. But I don't know if it works. Maybe you can tell that are more familiar with this mineral?

[jfugate]

electro:

Chicken wire would be okay, but wire of any kind needs to be stapled in order to stay in place, and when you cut it to size it can jab you good and draw blood. Hot glue and cardboard are easier, and the cardboard's free -- but that's just me.

As to the vermiculite, you could just sift the stuff through a small 1mm screen and see what you get and use that. You should try something simple to see what you think of the vermiculite mix first before you get too carried away. Be a shame for you to try it then find out you don't like it all that well after doing a lot of work.

[electrolove]

Joe:

I ordered some vermiculite today, 1-2 mm, I will try your mix out and come back to you with the result. And I got an idea this morning. I will strain the vermiculite and use the bigger vermiculite in the first layer, and the smaller vermiculite in the second layer. That must work. If not I crush everything [:D] I'm really excited about this. I will have a look at your cardboard method as well.

As for the plaster dipped towel experiment. It seems that I used way too much water. It's still not dry, 12 hours later.

[electrolove]

A little update on my plaster dipped paper towel experiment. You can also call in my water dipped towels [xx(]

17 hours later, begins to dry, but I can feel that it's only paper (or a VERY thin plaster layer) on some spots so It must have been too much water and not enough plaster in my mix.

But I don't see this as a mistake, I'm learning things every day so this was very usefull... Next time it will be much better [:D]

[Anonymous]

I don't know what the ratio is on plaster to water, but I can see that one was to much water.

If your paper towels don't dry try sprinkling dry plaster on it but not very much. I have used a tea basket strainer. I quit using the metal screen besause of all of the blood on the layout. You can't cut that stuff without it cutting you.

[pcarrell]

Sorry if I mislead you, I didn't mean to. I couldn't think of anything to describe the consistancy and so I jumped on milk. Selector is closer to what I was after when he suggested tomato soup.

As far as drying goes, TEFFY has the key.

Just don't try a hair dryer even on a low setting. It dries unevenly and to quickly and the whole thing cracks. Don't ask me how I know this because I will have to plea the 5th!

[electrolove]

pcarrell:

You just tried to help. This is just a experiment so it's no big deal. Next step will be to try the vermiculite mix. I have a lot of time before my flextrack and turnouts arrive so it's just fun to do some testing. So I know what to do on the real thing.