What do you think of MR's video clips?

[jfugate]

How many of you have watched the video clips that MR has posted on their site?

I'm curious, what you think of them?

As you may know, I have a model RR how-to video series that I'm producing. It's a multivolume series that covers "from dream to reality" on designing, building, and operating a model railroad. You can buy this video series today on DVD, and it's distributed by http://model-trains-video.com ... volumes 1 & 2 are available, volume 3 will be out next month, and volumes 4 & will come out over the next year.

What would you think of an online video library of 5-10 minute how-to videos that you subscribe to and could watch over the internet?

Or do you prefer just buying a DVD instead?

If the DVD quality video was available as a download (12 MB per minute of video) that you could burn to DVD, would you be interested in that?

Just curious ... I've kicked around the idea of doing something online with streaming video and was wondering how popular -- or unpopular -- that might be.

Anybody want to chime in with an opinion?

[cheese3]

I like the clips. It is easier than ordering a DVD. You have to wait for it to come and then a couple weeks later you can watch it. I like being able to just click a link and see something not wait a week. The only thing is the sound quality on some of MR's videos aren't that great.

[Anonymous]

Joe:

Not clear if you're offering such videos for free or for a cost, although I imagine at a cost. If so, how much?

Bar Mills Models has several streaming videos on their website - http://www.barmillsmodels.com/ One is a tour of their facilities and one is on using their new line of weathering powders. I forget right now what the third one is. Anyway I watched them recently, and they worked real smoothly, no pauses, breaks or other problems with my DSL connection. The MR clips seem to be real jerky and not as smooth in dowloading.

Check out the Bar Mills videos for yourself. I had an invitation to visit their shop two weekends ago, and saw their stuff first hand. The video is almost as good as being there. It's farily long too - 8 minutes, the others are 5 minutes or so.

Bob Boudreau

[jfugate]

Bob:

I envision some video clips that are free (like a series of how to clips on using DecoderPro, which is also free), and some "infomercial clips" that are also free.

Then I also see a video library of how-to clips that are subscriber only. You would subscribe for a year at a bit less than the cost of a subscription to MR and have free access to the entire library of how to videos. I see perhaps 40 some how-to clips (5-10 minutes long) to start out, with more added each month.

The videos would be offered as streaming in various sizes for different connections, similar to what is done here: http://mymemoirs.net/preview.php (see the big video at the top of the page).

I also see a downloadable version that is DVD quality and you could burn it to a CD or DVD and watch it on your TV. The downloadable versions would be a small extra fee, like a dollar or two each.

But this is all hypothetical at the moment. The technology is there, I'm just not sure of the interest level.

[Anonymous]

Joe - first of all, I very much enjoy your work.

My other big hobby is drumming. There are a lot of free downloadable clips available these days. While I do enjoy downloading the free clips, I'm still happy to fork over 50 bucks for a really nice DVD now and then. The ~$50 DVD's are very high quality.

I haven't yet entered the video-purchasing market for MRR stuff yet, but it pretty closely parallels my other hobby.

I think I'd sooner buy a DVD than pay for a downloadable clip. There's something about having the DVD in your hands that seems more legitimate - I don't know why. For reference, I'm 30 years old, so I'm halfway beetween the old-schoolers and young'uns.

As an example - you know how when you use "quick-time" to watch video clips, and they always try to get you to download the "full version?". Well, I did that once on an old computer. I never backed up program files. So now that $30 or whatever it was is gone, and I don't have the software.

Just some random thoughts. I'd personally rather see "teaser" clips for free that demonstrate a super high quality DVD that I could buy, rather than paying a few bucks for a downloadable video.

But that's just me...

[Anonymous]

I should add that all my buddies who are in the software industry are big fans of the "subscription" method you described because the earning potential is much higher. I may just be slightly old-school in my ways of thinking about paying for downloads. With all the 20 yr old hobbyists out there, you may be on to something.

Obviously MR is thinking along those lines with the PDF's.

Good luck to you. Anyone who could figure out how to make money and share knowledge at the same time at a decent price gets two thumbs up in my book.

[rrinker]

I think they are extremely tiny, plus there REMAINS a server issue with the session timeout being set way too low for people like me who don't have full-on broadband to download and view them. I don't even bother trying anymore.

--Randy

[simon1966]

My only concern with on-line streaming video is the image quality for instuction that has some detail associated with it. I just looked at the Bar Mills videos and it is virtually impossible to see the detail of what they are describing in the videos. I am using a broadband connection and have a high resoultion display. I have purchased the Dave Frary DVD's and found them to be very helpful. I like the fact that I can look at them full screen on my PC in the train room and really see what is going on.

[jfugate]

Randy:

I agree with you the current MR server chokes pretty bad on the video clips, and in many cases they can't be played or don't play that well. If you are to do streaming video over the internet, then you need to make sure they play smoothly and come up quickly or you might as well forget it.

And as you say, many people have given up on the MR video clips. They just aren't playable over many connections, and they'll also choke if several people are all trying to view them at once.

P.S. Randy (or anyone with a dial up connection): How well do the dial up versions of the top video on this page stream for you: http://mymemoirs.net/preview.php

[WickhamMan]

I've seen this attempted in a couple of venues over the years. It has never panned out as much as the authors had hoped. With DVD's the customer buys all topics instead of cherry picking just what they want. Granted, this is nice for the customer but may not work well for the business model. Frankly, I would take the advice that others gave to put a few "teaser" video clips up on the web to entice people to buy more.

As an alternative, you may want to look into getting a few clips "sponsored" by a manufacturuere or two. I'm guessing that if you use anyone's products in your video, it's free money to the product company. Let them plug the video with a short commercial up front (ESPN does this with their streaming video) and then onto the meat of the matter.

Just my [2c]

[jfugate]

Simon:

I too watched the Bar Mills clips and they stream well. That's the good news.

The bad news is the videos image is not composed that well and they don't zoom in on what they are showing until it fills the frame.

Also the sound quality is mediocre in many cases -- it appears they are using the camera mike, which is a no-no if you want good sound quality. The camera mike is okay for shots of the kids, but for a more polished effort, you need a separate mike close to the one speaking.

As a result, the Bar Mills video looks and sounds a bit amateurish. So it works okay, but with very little extra effort, could be made into material that really looks and sounds *great*.

For example, here is a full frame capture from my upcoming video on DCC. Notice how we fill the frame with what we're working on (installing loco headlights in this case):


(click to enlarge)

Of course, it takes a good video camera to be able to get in this close and have it still be sharp. But even editing in some higher megapixel stills with your video would allow people to see it up close and not break the bank.

[grayfox1119]

Hi Joe, I am a strong advocate of visual aids. Talking or reading about how to do something can leave much to the imagination, and very prone to error if you "think" you understand what you read or heard, but find out later, sometimes very costly, that you did not grasp the concept correctly. I would say, quite strongly, GO WITH DVD's.
With a DVD, you can play it back over and over if you need to, or pause on what you need to see clearly.
You can also refer back to the video as many times as you need to as you perform the demonstrated task.
As far as I am concerned, a good library of DVD's on MRR'ing is loooong overdo, from building benches, tables, bookshelfs, etc, to DCC, troubleshooting, proper use of tools, what each tool is for, scenery...I'm sure you get my point.
Necessity is the mother of invention...GO for it Joe.

Many people do not have Hi-speed internet, so streaming video is like running up Mt. Washington for the poor folks on dial-up. GET A DVD !!!!!!!!! That's a no brainer!! Gee, I don't know what to get dad for his BD, or Father's Day....HELLLOOOO, anybody home in there??????

[Bob Hayes]

Hi Joe,

What kind of frame rates are you talking? Remember that sound video you posted a while back? You don't want any "jerkiness". If my math is correct, a high quality 10 min. video would be about 1.2GB. That's a pretty long download time even on a T-1 line. Plus, I would think this would take a bite out of your DVD sales from My Memoirs. And, since I have already paid for them, I not going to be interested in downloading bits and pieces at an additional cost. I don't do pay-per-view. Also remember the discussion about the downloadable how to articles from MR.

Bob Hayes

[gvdobler]

jfugate

My biggest fault with the videos is they are almost always too dark to see the detail. The steam engine that was just on is so dark you cannot make out the wheels and hardware moving.

Stll not enough light on the subject. Your finger is very clear, however the light and the nose of the engine are dark. I can't tell where the hole is or if there are two.

I'm not a photographer but I have a niece that puts out brochures for casinos. They take shots in dark showrooms with no flash and the pictures look like it's daylight--something to do with burning the negatives or something like that.

I am just stating my opinion and I don't claim to be able to do any better or do it at all, so please don't take offense.

[jfugate]

gv:

To a certain degree, the brightness and contrast (and gamma) settings of your monitor can be a factor. I'd be interested in knowing if other's agree with gv that the above image of the finger and bulbs is too dark on the loco.

The other thing you might try, gv, is cranking up the brightness on your monitor quite a bit and then watch the steam loco video and see if you can make out more detail. I found out a computer I was using at work always played the videos really dark, but once I cranked up the brightness on the monitor, lots more detail showed up.

You may have a point -- it would be good to see if others agree the videos are too dark. What about this one gv: http://mymemoirs.net/preview.php ... the big one at the top of the page. Is it too dark as well?

[jfugate]

Bob:

Have you looked at the video at: http://mymemoirs.net/preview.php ... ?

That's approaching the quality of what I was thinking for streaming (still not quite there, but getting close).

As to downloadable DVD quality, I'm talking MPEG-4, which is about 11 MB per minute. MPEG4 uses a lot of smart compression techniques to vastly improve on MPEG2, which is the current DVD compression standard. MPEG4 can achieve similar quality with files up to 20 times smaller than DVD video file size.

You have to see MPEG4 files to believe them. It's new technology and I've done a few test renders of material and the quality is *phenomenal*. If you're up to it, here is a 50 second avi download that's MPEG4 (9 MB). You'll need to download the DivX MPEG4 player to watch it.

MPEG4 DivX player: http://www.divx.com/divx/player/

MPEG4 video sample: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/mtv/video/CCS/CCS_demoDVD.zip

And if you want cheap software you can use to burn MPEG4 files to CD or DVD, see:
http://www.divx.com/software/detail.php?id=54

[selector]

Joe, I watched the clip you kindly let us see a few weeks back. It was a decent size on my monitor, and it was just like watching a well-adjusted TV. The MR clips are much poorer quality, and I agree that they are dark, grainy, jerky, and leave much to be desired. So, take it from those of us who assure you that the two are incomparable, and that it clearly is NOT our monitor settings.

I treasured that WGH DVD because it got me going, but I would gladly give it up to someone who needed it. I would personally prefer a DVD most times, but as I mature into the hobby, I might eventually want only a very specific bit of 'tutoring' in one skill. In that case, I would pay a small fee for, say, six account-controlled viewings, coded to prevent piracy (copying/recording). For $3/4/5, I get six viewings of Chapter 4 of DVD #2 on DCC, the one in which you talk about the auto-bulb in-line resistor short protection (I'm making this up, of course).

So, many will want well marketed, well produced DVDs for their libraries, and some will only want to tweak a weakness that they've discovered on their dream layout, but the eighth they've built, and only need one inexpensive piece of info or guidance.

Just a thought for you. In summary, MR clips rate a C-, yours a solid A.

[gvdobler]

Joe
That clip is fine. I'm using a good monitor.22 pitch ViewSonic, XP software on P4 processor. Turning the brightness up would just wash out the picture. If I pop in a Hollywood DVD, I don't have to change the monitor settings. Most of the shots are too dark when they do close up work on the MR videos, and that's when you most want to see the detail. That's why there are lighting awards in movie making.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Joe, I watched the clip you kindly let us see a few weeks back. It was a decent size on my monitor, and it was just like watching a well-adjusted TV. The MR clips are much poorer quality, and I agree that they are dark, grainy, jerky, and leave much to be desired ... MR clips rate a C-, yours a solid A.

Selector:

Thanks! I know when we shoot our videos, we're using broadcast video quality cameras (thousands of dollars each) and we have a couple thousand watts of lighting going while we're shooting. That's what you do to produce professional quality stuff that you expect people to pay for on a DVD.

I suspect the MR videos are shot in much less rigorous conditions and with consumer level cameras. Just a guess, of course.

[selector]

My pleasure. On rereading my post, I am unsure if I made myself clear about the controlled viewings. I meant that they would be purchased on-line and downloaded a mximum number of times, and they would not be able to be recorded or saved to a hard drive in other than a temp file.

I hope this all works out for you.

[Anonymous]

I think it is a great idea. I just wi***he vids wern't so choppy. But it does give you ideas on future purchases.

[electrolove]

Joe:

I think DVD is much better. I like to watch things like this on my TV. I do not like the streaming thing. To be able to look at high quality streaming video you must have a good internet connection, not all people have that. Same for downloading, it takes a lot of time with bad connections.

And to buy a DVD and know that it is mine it's a good feeling. Maybe I'm too old for this but I used to work as a web designer and have seen a lot of bad streaming experiments. I think the quality is the most importent thing when you deal with small details. And it's a lot of small things in this hobby.

So a good quality DVD is the right thing for me.

[ereimer]

i'd prefer to buy the dvd , that way i don't have to think about backing up the downloads , or remembering my password to redownload something if i lost it .

the MR videos are not good quality , if they offered downloadable videos of the type you're thinking of i'd be hesitant to buy them until i'd seen one somewhere .

the sample video on your mymemoirs site works fine for me , no darkness problems at all . i wasn't impressed with the MPEG4 clip , there was no video at all , just a zoom in on a still shot . i'll need real video to form an opinion on it's quality

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Randy:

I agree with you the current MR server chokes pretty bad on the video clips, and in many cases they can't be played or don't play that well. If you are to do streaming video over the internet, then you need to make sure they play smoothly and come up quickly or you might as well forget it.

And as you say, many people have given up on the MR video clips. They just aren't playable over many connections, and they'll also choke if several people are all trying to view them at once.

P.S. Randy (or anyone with a dial up connection): How well do the dial up versions of the top video on this page stream for you: http://mymemoirs.net/preview.php

I don't even try to stream them, I right-click and save-as. Still no go on Kalmbach. Your samples work fine. I'm not a fan of low-res video, so I just download the high res ones. Or wait until the entire thing has loaded before attempting to play, and it works fine. I have no issues downloading huge files elsewhere, either - giant service pack updates for my computers or programmign environments, stuff liekt hat. It just takes a while. Which is why I continue to say the issue is with Kalmbach's web site, not me.

--Randy

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

... i wasn't impressed with the MPEG4 clip , there was no video at all , just a zoom in on a still shot . i'll need real video to form an opinion on it's quality

ereimer:

You're right about the MPEG4 clip ... we need to do a video one as well.

However, it impressed me because a slow zoom on a still usually creates video ripple artifacts and there are NONE ... smooth as silk. That's HARD to do with compressed video. I guess you have to know something about the biz to be impressed. But full video looks equally nice ... will have to post a short piece and have any of you who are interested tell me what you think.

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,

I looked at the video of you & Rick, and if anything there may be too much light. The subjects(you & Rick) are fine, but the background along the backdrop behind you is a little washed out and behind Rick almost invisible. The under layout part was fine. I think the reason the picture of the diesel with your thumb is a little hard to see is that your thumb is so big and light compared to the diesel and the camera is adjusting to the light reflecting off your thumb making the diesel a little dark. If the diesel shell was painted a lighter color, it might be easier to see. Also, the light blub, being clear, doesn't offer much contrast making it a little hard to see.

I downloaded the Divx player & your demo video. It took about 3 min. for the 46 seconds of viewing time, on my DSL connection. It's a little hard to describe; seems sharper and brighter, but with no actual movement of the train, it's hard to tell. It's definitely better than the MR videos.

My math was messed up. I was figuring 4MB/sec. Guess it should have been 4MB/min for MPEG2.

Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

Here's an MPEG4 video clip that includes motion video, in case you want to see how it looks. The clip is runs almost 2 minutes (1:52) and the file is 23.7 MB, which takes 5-10 minutes to download on a broadband connection, or 1-2 hours on a dailup connection.

The original AVI is 409 MB, so the MPEG4 version is compressed 17 times! Yet the highly compressed version still plays full size and looks every bit as good as the original.

To make it more worth the download, this is the opening to my new video volume 3 (sneak peak!) ...

http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/mtv/video/TSL3/TSL3open.zip

To play this video you'll need the DivX player from: http://www.divx.com/divx/player/

By the way, for dailup folks especially, I recommend you get and use the Internet Download Manager: http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/Download-Managers/Internet-Download-Manager.shtml

IDM is only $25 and with it you can schedule downloads to happen while you are away from your machine (like overnight) and if a download fails for any reason, you can resume it just where you left off. Very nice!

So if any of you are brave, you can download the above video and let me know what you think. You can take this download and burn it to CD or DVD using this software: http://www.divx.com/software/detail.php?id=54 and then watch it on your TV!

My idea is to make this sort of thing available over the internet as instantly downloadable how-to videos of 5-10 minutes in length on all kinds of model RR topics. There would be a small fee for the downloads, or you could subscribe to the entire library and watch it online if that's what you prefer (a broadband connection would be best for online viewing).

Is there a market for this sort of thing, or should I just stick to selling DVDs?

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

My math was messed up. I was figuring 4MB/sec. Guess it should have been 4MB/min for MPEG2.

Bob Hayes

Bob:

MPEG2 video is 40-80 MB per minute of video (so you were off by a factor of 10). MPEG4 video is 6-18 MB per minute of video, which can be up to 20 times smaller with nearly identical quality.

40 MB x 120 minutes = 4.8 GB, which is the size of your average DVD. DVD's use MPEG2 encoding.

[Fergmiester]

Regardless of quality I think their great for help in determining quality and running performance.

Fergie

[tsasala]

Joe,

I'd prefer small videos available for download and the full set on DVD. A full sized DVD is 4GB (or 8GB for new technology). Even on a very fast connection, that's far too long of a wait. Ive downloaded CDs for work and it usually takes over two hours on a decent connection (cable modem). If I were to download a DVD, I'd just rip it to hard media anyway. I don't need 4GB files laying around on my computer.

0.02.

-Tom