Gorre (But not Daphetid)

[route_rock]

I was perusing some G&D web sites and groups lately and all I can say is WOW! John Allen still is hands down one of the best. Now my question is where are all of the rest like him?
Does anyone have a name like Gorre and Daphetid? Something of a cute moniker? Or just a line that goes point A to point B and just represents a locale?
Plus ( this is to the MR staff reading these) How about a section on or a special on Great Model Railroads like John Allens? Lets dust off some photos and sit back and just marvel at the detail.
How about a track plan of the G&D as well. or Bruce Chubbs line. or pick a classic!

[West Coast S]

At the risk of upsetting the population, I fear these caliber of modlers no longer exist. True, we have some prolific hobbist among our ranks, who in time will accend to the throne.

It took a lot of effort and dedication for John Allen and others of similar vain to construct layouts of this cailber and I feel that is what makes them unique given the state of the hobby during this period. The things we take for granted to make our hobby easier, simply were not readily available then. [soapbox]

[Anonymous]

George Sellios' Franklin & South Manchester is the current equal to the G&D.

There have been quite a few retrospective articles in MR and other mags on the G&D, as well as a great book by Lynn Wescott (now out of print - I got mine years ago!). Look for past issues to satisfy your interests.

Bob Boudreau

[ARTHILL]

I am going through all my old MRs and the G&D is everywhere. What great stuff. Inspired me and and still does. His whimsical side was second to none. Any one remember the series of letters with a friend over the hiring of the over weight conducter that swayed all the cars he road and the special car that was built with the keg to keep him and his buddy happy?

[AggroJones]

IMHO, the Franklin and South Manchester is a few notches ABOVE the G&D.

[SpaceMouse]

While I admit to bing an Allen fan, there are aspects of his work that others have done better. It might be also true technology available to make some tedious work easy might give more time to concentrate on details that Allen had not achieved.

Like any genre of art, each generation builds on the work of the previous generation. You cannot compare Monet with Picasso. Both were pioneers who stretched their contemporary envelope.

[Anonymous]

John Allen was an inspiration to us all but from reading Model RR and RMC I feel there are modelers (besides G. Selios) who are everybit the equal of JA. True, few have the whimsical sense of humor John was famous for but from a realism standpoint some are worthy of greatness. I'm not one of them. Thought for today: Beer has food value but food has no beer value.

[Jetrock]

The convention of using whimsical names for layouts was an old tradition among model railroaders, but it has largely fallen by the wayside in recent decades--it just kind of got old. It's funny the first time, but not the hundredth.

There is already a pretty good book about John Allen and the G&D--I highly recommend it.

[Anonymous]

Yo guys,

the John Allens are in narrow guage....Jim Vail, Dave Adams, Ken Ehlers, Harry Brunk, Boone Morrison, Bob Brown, etc..... the list is huge. There is very little RTR in Narrow guage and very few kits at that, I would also add Jack Burgess, Rand Hood, George Sellios and countless others in standard gauge.

Allen had a huge advantage in that he was independently wealthy the last few decades of his life and devoted most of his time to the railroad....Few of these guys have that luxury. He also was a professional photographer so his work was well documented and very well presented. Thus his influendce was /is huge. He is one of the reasons I am a model railroader.

BTW: He might have actually finished the GD if he hadn't insisted on scratchbuilding everything......I guess we can all take solace in the fact that one of the greatest never finished his layout......

[Jetrock]

Narrow gauge and electric traction are definitely parts of the hobby that feel like a throwback to an earlier era, which may be why those are the parts of the hobby that interest me the most.

Another benefit Allen had was a community of friends who were also skilled modelers and producers of model railroad products in their own right--which just goes to show that building a network of friends with model railroading skills can produce benefits for your pike, as well as the other benefits of friends with shared interests.

[soumodeler]

Let's not forget the Virginian and Ohio. That was one of the best layouts ever to me. Excellent scenery and the realism make it better than the F&SM and G&D in my opinion.

soumodeler
-----------------
The Southern Serves the South!

[jfugate]

Bob:

In terms of look and feel, the F&SM, yes, is a modern equivalent to the G&D.

However, in terms of pioneering direction and influence, no one modern layout comes to mind that equals the G&D. The F&SM certainly doesn't qualify when it comes to its influence on the hobby today.

I think many layouts today now share the position once held by the G&D. Plus the philosophical center of the hobby is no longer "how clever can you freelance" but is now "how clever can you model the prototype" -- be it protofreelancing or faithfully following some prototype. Pure fantasy freelancing ala John Allen has developed into more of a niche following.

[coalminer3]

On the operational side, let's not forget Frank Ellison's Delta Lines.

work safe

[Anonymous]

I think Malcom Furlow's efforts are just as good as Allen's. I find it ironic that Furlow's last "layout", a whimsical south of the border pike was heavily ridiculed, while the G&D is put on a pedestal. Not to take anything away from the G&D or JA, but let's not be so hard on Malcom for doing the whimsy thing.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwieczorek

I think Malcom Furlow's efforts are just as good as Allen's. I find it ironic that Furlow's last "layout", a whimsical south of the border pike was heavily ridiculed, while the G&D is put on a pedestal. Not to take anything away from the G&D or JA, but let's not be so hard on Malcom for doing the whimsy thing.

I think the difference between G&D and Furlow's South of the Border is the operability. I'm not taking away from Furlow, if that is the lkind of modeling he likes. But like Joe just said, it is a matter of context. John Allen moved model railroading forward where Furlow does not. The state of the art now is how well you can model the prototype. Furlow clearly does not fit that mold.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: I find it ironic that Furlow's last "layout", a whimsical south of the border pike was heavily ridiculed, while the G&D is put on a pedestal.

Was it? That's a shame. Furlow does such great stuff, and I used to love seeing the frequent articles in MR. I think Furlow and John Olson have some legit claim to be the heirs of the Great Pooh-Bah: they both have done some amazing modeling, and it's too bad they aren't writing for MR much these days.

I would add Howard Zane to the list of John Allen's heirs, on the grounds of whimsy, talent, and genuine openness and encouragement of younger modelers, as well as modeling ability. The Piermont Division is really an accomplishment.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: John Allen moved model railroading forward where Furlow does not. The state of the art now is how well you can model the prototype. Furlow clearly does not fit that mold.

Oooof! And does scenery not count?????? I think he's certainly a talented modeler by any measure, and if you don't think he helped advance the hobby, you should look at some of his old how-to articles. Modeling the prototype means modeling scenery, and he definitely moved the hobby forward in that regard. If he didn't model the prototype, it was because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't.

And speaking of prototypes, weren't you the guy building a Hogwarts section on your layout????????????

[IRONROOSTER]

I think that John Allen's legacy is how he inspired so many others. While others since have done as well or better in scenery, scratchbuilding etc. very few have inspired so many. Who today inspires us?
Enjoy
Paul,

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

Who today inspires us?
Enjoy
Paul,

Furlow[tup]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

QUOTE: John Allen moved model railroading forward where Furlow does not. The state of the art now is how well you can model the prototype. Furlow clearly does not fit that mold.

Oooof! And does scenery not count?????? I think he's certainly a talented modeler by any measure, and if you don't think he helped advance the hobby, you should look at some of his old how-to articles. Modeling the prototype means modeling scenery, and he definitely moved the hobby forward in that regard. If he didn't model the prototype, it was because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't.

That's not the point. When you are talking about an art-form, it is the people who think outside the box and influence the direction of the art who are considered great. No doubt Furlow is talented, but he does not have the influence of an Allen. Let's take an example in music. The group YES was highly inovatinve and extremely talented group, but they did not have the influence of the argualbly less talented Beatles on music culture. Furlow, is talented, but like YES a splinter faction. Few follow his lead. Most of us struggle to put down track with a tree here or there. We are more likely to study Armstrong than Furlow.

QUOTE: And speaking of prototypes, weren't you the guy building a Hogwarts section on your layout????????????

And your point is? I have no illusions of being a railroad model giant. I'm building a railroad I hope to run with my son. If it includes a freelance railroad called Hogwart's Freight and Ferry, so be it.

[ARTHILL]

I saw a TV show, maybe Discovery Channel about a pike in a special two story building with mountians two stories high. You walked up stairs to see part of it. Anyone know what that was or is???

[Anonymous]

Art,

I believe that would be Northlandz. Impressive for it's size and grand vistas, not super detailed.

[Jetrock]

The problem with comparing people to John Allen is that it is, in fact, kind of like comparing bands to the Beatles. There was only one Beatles and only one John Allen, and trying to make direct comparisons to them are going to come out silly because individuals ARE so different--model railroaders doubly so.

There isn't anyone doing what John Allen did simply because nobody NEEDS TO anymore. Allen was expanding into a new field, although he did it alongside other folks we consider giants today--Linn Westcott, Cliff Grandt, Gordon Varney, etcetera. Others since then have conducted more quiet revolutions.

Maybe what model railroading needs, to stretch the musical metaphor put forth by Chip, is a punk rock railroading revolution. You see, music in the Seventies got stagnant, expensive and over-produced. The charge led by super-groups like the Beatles evolved into over-produced, over-engineered garbage or navel-gazing overly-technical snooze-fests like Yes. Fleetwood Mac's "Tusk" album is the perfect example: $1 million spent to produce an album that sounded like crap. Plenty of people became disenchanted from the musical scene, and musicans were perceived as very distant from the general public--only Special People could make music.

Into this bland Seventies mix came punk rock: there was always a subculture of people doing raw, direct music, from the Stooges, the MC5, the Blue Cheer and the Velvet Underground to the Ramones and the New York Dolls. The punk scene of the mid-seventies wasn't polished or slick, and for the most part most of the bands in the scene were never popular, but they proved that rock & roll didn't need to be polished, slick or over-produced to be fun. The Ramones and the Sex Pistols brought punk rock to the limelight and music was forever changed. ANYONE could do it, as long as they didn't mind playing dingy dives and using cheap pawn-shop instruments or recording their music on lo-fi vinyl or homemade cassette tapes. The bottom line is BE REAL--BE LOUD--and DO IT YOURSELF.

Maybe what we need are some punk rock model railroaders--folks who eschew the fancy overpriced stuff, don't mind doing it themselves and making stuff from scratch, who can capture the gritty, fun ESSENCE of trains and model railroading and bring things back to the bottom line that MODEL RAILROADING IS FUN. If you don't like the state of model railroading, stop whining and START DOING. Maybe you can be model railroading's Johnny Rotten!

[slotracer]

To the post directly above, get get tired of seeing threads on this and many other message boards where folks ae having a serious dialog and someone accuses tehm of whining, it is a cheap cop out that does not apply on this thread anyway.

Whimsical names....I used to operate on an n scale model railroad owned by a fellow from Westinghouse, in teh Amherst NY area, if I recall correctly it was named the Rairen Tougoue (rarin to go !)

I don't forsee any really MAJOR frontiers left in the hobby for another McClelland, Allen, or Ellison to make their indellible mark. Lord knows there are many who have raised teh bar in one area or another but they have been improvements or contributing enhancements to the hobby. As a manufacturer Lifelike of note brought us out of teh blue box age to teh current state of well detailed and painted, great running engines at reasonable prices, a vast improvement, but not the landmark improvement of the globes and varneys of the day that lifted teh hobby from cardstock and wood scratch kits to affordable and available injection molded cars and engines that made the hobby more attainable to the average guy 40 and 50 years back. I see the great modelers teh same way, Ellison quarterbacked teh movement of the hobby from little more than toy train status to the concept of purposeful operation and design with the goal of operation. Allen took us from crude layouts to great possibilities in scenery, weathering and construction, McClelland brought us the detailed prtototype based layout based on the common everyday railroad that looked and operated like the real thing. Since tehn we have been merely improving on these basics and adding enhancements like fantastic RTR and kit subjects, sound and of course digital.

Maybe we see a resurgence of small layouts and more whimsical based layouts, but it appears teh entrenched common thinking of round teh walls design and adherance to realsim and prototype are the accepted norm. Nothing wrong with that, I'd be hard pressed to be motivated to do a layout any other way but imagine how unique allen's layout would be in todays environment, how a layout like Bruce Chubs old Sunset lies would be considered too crude and crowded and unrealistic to be seriously considered today. Don't get me wrong both were great pikes and made theri marks but we have become so used to seeing things like the Maumee Route or Utah Belt or WerthWein's Erie lines and so many pikes like them that something like the old classic pikes would have a hard time even making teh pages of MR any longer.

Guessing bu the lack of success (Out of business) the "Aw Nuts" magazine had, there must be very few modelers even considering anything creative or whimsical. At least the mags are featuring smaller layouts other than mega pikes all teh time

[Jetrock]

By "whining" I am not referring to this thread in particular, but a lot of threads I notice lately about how "the hobby is too expensive for blue collar workers" and whatnot--essentially suggesting that because $1000 brass engines and grand basement layouts exist somewhere in the world, somehow $50 engines and mini layouts simply aren't good enough for them anymore. Whining is when a hobbyist feels like everyone in the hobby shop is laughing at them for buying an Athearn blue-box kit or a DC powerpack. Punk rock means doing what you like and sticking your tongue out at anyone who doesn't like it.

There's no reason for us to be confrontational about this, slotracer--it is obvious from your post that we agree in principle on how things should be going. If the frontiers have all been explored, then maybe it's time to get back to basics in order to show that anyone can do this--again, punk rock. Mini layouts and whimsical names are part of that tradition, just as 70's giant arena rock gave way to tiny club shows, and "serious" Seventies art-rock gave way to bands with names like X-Ray Spex, The Weirdos, The Mutants and Black Flag, who sang about TV shows and drinking beer.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "whining", because perhaps it overshadowed the rest of the post--which, other than in terminology, agrees with yours.

[SpaceMouse]

To be fair to Furlow, just as our art is defied by our museums, the state of the art of model railroading is determined by its publications--which unfortunately are determined by its need to scramble for advertising dollars. With the advertisers' pu***o produce more and more realistic models, it is not surprizing that the magazines feature realism. Kitbashers and scratch-builders while getting a nod, don't feed the stockholders. There is not a lot of room for expanding the envelope in such a myopic system.

[espeefoamer]

I think that with the highly detailed locos and cars,along with structures and scenery products available today,it is easier to build a highly realistic model railroad then it was in John Allen's day.His G&D blew everything else away at that time.Today most of us could build something almost as good as the Gorre & Daphetid.Notice I said "almost".John Allen's level of modelling will probably never be reached.

[Doug Goulbourn]

John Allen was indeed a master. His level of modelling may never be surpassed. Yet, we have in our circle many, many individuals that create models today that when you see a photo you have to really inspect it to see if they are prototype or model. This to me is "state of the art". It doesn't have to be a model of a specific prototype. And I don't think that the model press is determining this state of the art, we ourselves are!

I believe that the manufacturers (advertisers) are responding to our( model railroaders) demand for more detailed models, not the other way around. Look at FSM. When they were first on the market the amount of detail included with the kit was that of a scratch-built model. Now, I think this amount of detail is expected of just about all kits. We demand that our locos and rolling stock be as detailed as possible right out of the box and a lot of manufacturers are responding.

Doug

[Anonymous]

In his day, John Allen was the best. Unfortunately, he passed away over 30 years ago and in that time, the hobby has gotten better, new techniques have been developed. i recently saw a video of John Allens railroad. While it was excellent, many of the layouts featured in Allen Keller's videos are as good if not better. If John Allen were alive today, imagine what he could do!

[Anonymous]

It's interesting to see how things have evolved over the years. Certainly we now have techniques that the big names never enjoyed - you can now buy a relatively inexpensive loco that will run as well (and be as well detailed) as the top of the line brass of their era. I'm not too familiar with John Allen's work but I have been following with interest a series of articles on the Pendon Museum - this layout occupies much the same position for UK modellers as the G&D does for the US, with the difference that Pendon is still operational. What shows more than anything else is that while the builders were very skilled individuals, they were constrained by the technical options available to them. The models they built are now equalled by RTR equipment in terms of fine detail work and running qualities. It has become easier to create a great model I would argue, which surely must be a good thing.