Walthers?

[Anonymous]

I work over seas and have been out of the loop for while. I just got my 2005 walters catalog. and I see they do not carry the Atheran of round house cars or engines what's UP.All I see is the top end cars the cheapest ones are around $12.00 Has our hobby gotten to the point where the blue collar worker will no longer be able to afford model trains and only the white colar workers will enjoy this hobby? Yes I under stand the cars have more detail but give me a break the tycipal car was around $20.00 let's hear what you'all think ?

[Anonymous]

I know exactly what you mean! Im in the military and make close to nothing, my hobby pretty much is just for looking right now. I love model railroading, but might have to take up dumpster diving someday instead!

[CNJ831]

Welcome back to today's version of the hobby! Athearn and MDC are now the property of Horizon, a competitor of Walthers, so you won't see their products in the Walthers' catalog any longer.

As to prices, the days of this hobby being easily affordable to blue collar workers and retirees (always the hobby's base in past decades) are passing into history. A check of ads in the hobby magazines over the past few years will demonstrate that just about each new offering gains slightly in price over the one that preceeded it and it is clear that the manufacturers are aiming at a more well-to-do, discriminating, clientele than in decades past.

If you've got full pockets it's probably a great time to be in the hobby, otherwise you may be disappointed at what you see going on.

CNJ831

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JJUrich

I work over seas and have been out of the loop for while. I just got my 2005 walters catalog. and I see they do not carry the Atheran of round house cars or engines what's UP.All I see is the top end cars the cheapest ones are around $12.00 Has our hobby gotten to the point where the blue collar worker will no longer be able to afford model trains and only the white colar workers will enjoy this hobby? Yes I under stand the cars have more detail but give me a break the tycipal car was around $20.00 let's hear what you'all think ?

1) this has NEVER been a "poor man's hobby". In 1960, paying $65 for a brass 4-6-0 was a whole lot more of a stretch for the "average worker" than is paying $109 for a BETTER 4-6-0, made by Bachmann in plastic. If the average teenager cam plunk down $70 for a Gameboy game, he can plunk down $75 for an engine. If you can't afford the prices of "average" equipment, shop around online, go to swaps looking for used stuff, of learn to make the toy train set junque run better.

2) You really didn't look that hard through Walther's offerings, did you? I did a simple search in HO scale for "box car", and came up with 25 manufacturers and over 2000 line items. The lowest price I saw was $4.99 (IHC old timer box), and the highest I saw was $29.99 (F&C resin kit). In all, the rough average price was $15.25. A bit high from what I remember cruddy Athearn Blue Box kits going for these days ($10.95 when you can find them), but still nowhere at "break the bank" level. There were 15 manufacturers selling boxcars at or below the $10 level.

The hobby isn't too expensive; it's not being dragged down by the evil mega corporations just looking for a buck, the brass and limited run buyers aren't driving up prices, and the rivet counters aren't killing the hobby by making everything too detailed. This is a HOBBY; if you don't want to pay lots of money just to have a toy choo-choo, you don't have to. There are inexpensive options right in front of you, on a lower shelf.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JJUrich

I work over seas and have been out of the loop for while. I just got my 2005 walters catalog. and I see they do not carry the Atheran of round house cars or engines what's UP.All I see is the top end cars the cheapest ones are around $12.00 Has our hobby gotten to the point where the blue collar worker will no longer be able to afford model trains and only the white colar workers will enjoy this hobby? Yes I under stand the cars have more detail but give me a break the tycipal car was around $20.00 let's hear what you'all think ?

All is not lost.....The Athearn Blue Box line of innexpensive kits is alive and well, just not in the Walthers catalog (not a good move IMO!) I would also suggest you take a look at the Accurail line of rolling stock. Better than Athearn and not much more expensive. The Walthers catalog prices are also the full retail price. There is no reason to pay that price for anything in MRR. There are many web retailers that sell 20% below these prices and sometimes more. (Look for a recent thread on Web retailers). Locomotive prices have certainly been spiraling upwards. But then, so have the features. Many new locos coming to market are being offered with DCC sound decoders as standard at about $200.00. But and a big but.... If you are not into DCC, and don't care about sound, look for good deals on LifeLike Proto 2000 on the web. You can pick up really well detailed great running models for $30-$50 So you really do not have to break the bank to get a decent looking MRR roster. Be selective, look for bargains and you can do well.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

1) this has NEVER been a "poor man's hobby". In 1960, paying $65 for a brass 4-6-0 was a whole lot more of a stretch for the "average worker" than is paying $109 for a BETTER 4-6-0, made by Bachmann in plastic.

Just a thought on this point, since its ilk appears so often in our posts. After 45 years of technical advancement, wouldn't it be far more logical to expect a current version of such a model to sell for the same or less than it did in 1960? That's the case with almost every other common or household electronic item on the market (TV, refigerator, stoves, radio/player, blenders, and even more modern items like computers, VCRs, video cameras in the original non-digital format...the list in endless). In fact, what we've seen is that HO locomotives have typically increased 10-fold in price (in some cases 30x) over similar-item1960 pricing. Technological advancement is supposed to lower prices, not increase them dramatically. And, no, CPI does not justify such an increase since hobby items are purchased with dispossable income and are not in the same category as necessities. Items purchased with dispossable income have historically risen at a much lower rate than the CPI.

CNJ831

[oleirish]

I love model trains,All I have to do now is be vary carefull on what I buy and where I buy It[:)]I have found a few good buys on E-BAY,but far and few between!Here in southren oregon we have one train show a year,you can make out pretty good there also.[8D] Our two LHS do'nt have much but the basic things B.B. stuff,and altas stuff.But they allways say "WE CAN ORDER IT FOR YOU"so most stuff I get through mail order.[^]

OLE'IRISH

[rogerhensley]

I wish folks would stop with the 'Not a Poor Man's Hobby' stuff. It has been a very affordable hobby for many years until recently. Some can be blamed on EPA and OSHA causing some manufacturing to be moved overseas.

But I submit that Athearn rolling stock was $1.75 to $1.95 in the late 70s and slightly higher in the early 80s at $2.25 to $2.50 for some of the newer items. Inflation then took a toll, and prices increased again, but I could start a newcomer in the hobby in 1982 for $50 to $100. $250 would get a great beginner's layout started with all kinds of goodies.

Funny thing, even with the lower wages, more folks could afford a start then than now.

In 1971, I went to Woolworth's at Christmas time and bought enough HO stuff for a 4x8 layout for my 3 boys complete with different complete trains for each. I MAY have spent $65 or $75. Maybe.

If someone can afford the new prices, that's great, but many potential hobbiests cannot. Will that hurt? "You Betcha, Red Ryder".

[tsasala]

A quick search on Walthers will show the increase cost in locos. Sure you can find a $40 loco on Walthers, but 95% of them are over $100 (not on sale). Given that most hobbiests want/need more than one (more than 10 or 20 in many cases), that's a pretty expensive hobby. That doesn't even cover the cost of the rolling stock, track, power packs, scenery, etc..

When I got out of the hobby nearly 20 years ago, an entire train set was a the cost of a single loco these days. One has to ask, does it really cost $120 for an "adequately" detailed loco? Perhaps demand has gone down, which is driving up prices. The catch 22 is that as prices go up further, demand will go down even more, continuing the vicious circle until the hobby is nearly non-existent.

-Tom

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Just a thought on this point, since its ilk appears so often in our posts. After 45 years of technical advancement, wouldn't it be far more logical to expect a current version of such a model to sell for the same or less than it did in 1960? That's the case with almost every other common or household electronic item on the market (TV, refigerator, stoves, radio/player, blenders, and even more modern items like computers, VCRs, video cameras in the original non-digital format...the list in endless).

You are spot on, and that's the problem. The technological advances that have allowed mass market consumer products to come down in price are advances in supply chain management, and production methods. MRR is not a mass market consumer market. It can not benefit from these technoligical advances. More importantly, it can not opperate on this type of business model where millions of low margin systems are sold to make a profitable business. Like it or not, this is a specialist low volume market. Look at any other adult/collectors type hobby and you will see similar pricing structure. (RC Planes, Classic Auto parts etc).

The other point that should be noted is that we are in the early phase of a market shift. DCC sound is relatively new, hot, and high priced. It will no doubt come down a little in price. All the indications are that new competition is on the way and the price will come down. Look at the DCC controller market. There are now entry level DCC systems under $100.00 3 years ago the cheapest was over $200.00. This is exactly what happens in the consumer market. MP3 players started in the $500 range, they are now in the $200 dollar range. The thing we must all remember is that MRR is far too small a market for companies to survive on very small margins.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tsasala



When I got out of the hobby nearly 20 years ago, an entire train set was a the cost of a single loco these days. One has to ask, does it really cost $120 for an "adequately" detailed loco?
-Tom

No, not at all. http://www.trainworld1.com/lifelike/lifelike_proto.htm Follow this link, and or search any other on-line retailer and you can find really well detailed locomotives, far better than anything in a starter train set from 20 years ago for under $50 and even in the $20's (Proto 1K locomotives are a great example of a well made, smooth running locomotive with moderate detail) A decent trainset can be had for $100-$120 a real cheap on for about $50.00. You abselutely do not have to spend $120 on a locomotive. Unless of course you want installed DCC, and Sound and then you can easily spend more, but then this is not really to be compared to a basic loco from 20 yrs ago.

[Anonymous]

You are overlooking that for the price you are getting (in say, an Atlas Master/Gold) a locomotive that approaches the best brass in detail, far superior drive quality, DCC and sound !

A far cry from the old blue box level !!!!

You are getting your monies worth, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

I just finished looking over some of Atlas's GOld Line HO desiels with QSI sound and DCC ready to go.

For the money they are absolutely top of the line they even have ditch lights. For plastic that is awesome.

Let's say I want to buy two of these in different numbers... $500.00 total not including tax. (10% in my area)

Let's say I want 15 Intermodal Double stacks with it from Intermountain (A-Line) They come in sets of 5. Then I need three boxes at about 110.00 each

330.00

They dont have containers. More money for containers.

DCC Digitrax and some track. Each switch costs money.

By the time I am ready to put this train together and run it I am over 1000.00

20 years ago I recall buying two GP30's, 20 Athearn Blue Box cars and a Tech 2 transformer. Sound and DCC was not in the hobby and some of the finer offerings did not exist back then.

Total cost Approx 150 for the two Spectrum GP30's

Blue Box 3.00 x 20 cars @ 60.00

Power pack 50.00

Track etc cheap.

Roughly 230.00 done.

Yes the money has gone way up in costs between 1980 and 2000.

The 1980 train set is a hell of alot of fun back then, still is today. But probably will cost 4 times as much to put together. because we are paying 14.00 for RTR cars instead of kits.

The 2000 trainset I described is RTR and has sound, DCC control lights etc...

Try doing that in 1980.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

1) this has NEVER been a "poor man's hobby". In 1960, paying $65 for a brass 4-6-0 was a whole lot more of a stretch for the "average worker" than is paying $109 for a BETTER 4-6-0, made by Bachmann in plastic.

Just a thought on this point, since its ilk appears so often in our posts. After 45 years of technical advancement, wouldn't it be far more logical to expect a current version of such a model to sell for the same or less than it did in 1960?

How is this a logical supposition? The costs for everything, in both raw numbers and in actual purchasing power, has ALWAYS gone up, not down. The costs for everything go UP, due to increased manufacturing costs (labor, materials, energy, liability, etc). All these costs have to be amortized into the end price of the item. Sure, if Athearn could still pay an American worker $4 an hour, we might still see $2.00 Blue Box kits, but not today.

QUOTE:
That's the case with almost every other common or household electronic item on the market (TV, refigerator, stoves, radio/player, blenders, and even more modern items like computers, VCRs, video cameras in the original non-digital format...the list in endless).

I don't have to time to dig through the Department of Commerce's website today, but even on the face of things, this is a complete lie. Cars in 1970 cost $4000. Today they cost $24000. Houses in 1940 cost $3000, today they cost $250000.

QUOTE:
In fact, what we've seen is that HO locomotives have typically increased 10-fold in price (in some cases 30x) over similar-item1960 pricing. Technological advancement is supposed to lower prices, not increase them dramatically.

Show me a SINGLE engine in 1960 that comes anywhere close to being comperable to a P2K GP9, Kato SD45, or BLI M-1a 4-8-2. Go on, I dare you.

Oh...the cost of a 1920s-era Lionel or Marx set was, on average, two year's wages for the "average" laborer in the USA. Since WHEN was this hobby affordable to "everyman"?

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

1) this has NEVER been a "poor man's hobby". In 1960, paying $65 for a brass 4-6-0 was a whole lot more of a stretch for the "average worker" than is paying $109 for a BETTER 4-6-0, made by Bachmann in plastic.

Just a thought on this point, since its ilk appears so often in our posts. After 45 years of technical advancement, wouldn't it be far more logical to expect a current version of such a model to sell for the same or less than it did in 1960?

How is this a logical supposition? The costs for everything, in both raw numbers and in actual purchasing power, has ALWAYS gone up, not down. The costs for everything go UP, due to increased manufacturing costs (labor, materials, energy, liability, etc). All these costs have to be amortized into the end price of the item. Sure, if Athearn could still pay an American worker $4 an hour, we might still see $2.00 Blue Box kits, but not today.

QUOTE:
That's the case with almost every other common or household electronic item on the market (TV, refigerator, stoves, radio/player, blenders, and even more modern items like computers, VCRs, video cameras in the original non-digital format...the list in endless).

I don't have to time to dig through the Department of Commerce's website today, but even on the face of things, this is a complete lie. Cars in 1970 cost $4000. Today they cost $24000. Houses in 1940 cost $3000, today they cost $250000.

QUOTE:
In fact, what we've seen is that HO locomotives have typically increased 10-fold in price (in some cases 30x) over similar-item1960 pricing. Technological advancement is supposed to lower prices, not increase them dramatically.

Show me a SINGLE engine in 1960 that comes anywhere close to being comperable to a P2K GP9, Kato SD45, or BLI M-1a 4-8-2. Go on, I dare you.

Oh...the cost of a 1920s-era Lionel or Marx set was, on average, two year's wages for the "average" laborer in the USA. Since WHEN was this hobby affordable to "everyman"?

Ray - Point #1, do you really think Athearn is paying the Chinese $4 an hour? More like $.40 an hour. All these companies went overseas to cut their costs dramatically and what did the consumer see...increased prices across the board for all newer items. The name of the game has become "charge as much as the public will bear." In the past, when nearly all the model railroading companies were owned and operated by individuals who were actually hobbyist, this most definitely was not the case.

Point #2, a car is a necessity today, not an item purchased with dispossable income like model trains. And a house certainly doesn't fall into this category. I recall color TVs in 1957 running $500-$1000+. What does a similar TV cost today...maybe $500 (less fancy units much less). The blender, stove, etc. all have changed very little in price over the same period but quality-wise they are many times better. I understand that there is the matter of consumer base but prices did not start to get out of control for hobbyist until just the last 10 years.

Point #3, you suggest that you can not compare a 1960 Athearn GP-9 with today's PK2, Kato, or BLI. I say yes you most certainly can! The 1960 Athearn was essentially state of-the-art for the hobby in that day, just as the others are for today. You are comparing the typical best of one era with another and that's quite fair. In that sense, there has most certainly been a decided relative price increase for what you are getting as a state-of-the-art product.

Point #4, where in the world did you get the figure that a 1920's Lionel or Marx train set was an average the of two year's wages for the working man? Are we talking about the handful of virtually custom made President Specials that were on a par with the handbuilt brass G-scale consists offered today by companies like Fine Art Models that run into many tens of thousands of dollars? We're certainly not talking normal consumer goods here, that is for sure (in fact, we're talking about childrens' tin-plate toys, not scale models anyway).

If you care to go back and read issues of MR or RMC from the 1950's through the early 1980's you will most definitely find that our hobby was very affordable during this era for blue collar workers and, in fact, grew relatively cheaper over the course of most of that time period.

CNJ831

[selector]

This subject keeps appearing in one form or another. I'll restate what I've always maintained in those other rehashes: we have just as much disposable income as we've always had, all things being equal. What we elect to do with it is a personal choice. Some buy season's tickets, some a $2000 set of golf clubs, others put thousands into a hot car that is only driven on Sunday afternoons to the beach, and others wait until they can scrape together $20 for a boxcar kit.

There are some who do not own refrigerators, or who don't even eat meals regularly. Many of them are drug addicts who make conscious decisions to buy drugs, and not to eat., or to bru***heir teeth.

I am by no means rich, but I can come up with $280 now and then to get YET ANOTHER!!... DCC loco to fill another bank spot in my many drawers that house all of my locos (I only have two (2) locos, in truth, but I am amazed at the number of respondants here who claim to own several dozens of whatever Company X puts out in their catalog).

We all spend as we bloody well wi***o. If we want something badly enough, it'll happen most often.

[Anonymous]

www.walthers.com also has a monthly sales flyer

[Anonymous]

While you were gone, Athearn was sold and now is exclusive to Horizon Models. The fact that Horizon will only sell to hobby shop dealers and not other distributors or to the bargin basement dealers should be taken to court to see if they can force a monopoly on their products in a market that is very small, and now they can control the prices as they see fit.

You can look forward to higher prices and limited amount of products available from Horizon as one distributor cannot stock the same level as literally hundreds of small distributors.

My feeling is that Athearn will sell less products overall now because more people sold their product prior to this action and Horizon will have to stock more of their own products.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by orsonroy
[]

1) this has NEVER been a "poor man's hobby". In 1960, paying $65 for a brass 4-6-0 was a whole lot more of a stretch for the "average worker" than is paying $109 for a BETTER 4-6-0, made by Bachmann in plastic. If the average teenager cam plunk down $70 for a Gameboy game, he can plunk down $75 for an engine. If you can't afford the prices of "average" equipment, shop around online, go to swaps looking for used stuff, of learn to make the toy train set junque run better.

I take a fence to you comment the normal worker at say to your local Walmart worker that wants to get into to stay in the hobby with a say small family $75. is a lot of money I know I was there. and my buying was on hold. a $20 box car was 3 months of saving if I was lucky. As for a $70 game boy LOL my kids were lucky if we had the money at X-mas for that. I do not see how the normal working man or woman back in the states are making it now with the price of gas and every thing else! Even with the income I have now my hobby is on hold. You talked about the prices just going up with time I agre with you but give me a break $44. for a Trix caboose Show me were the $44. worth of plastic is and we know it is not in labor In Iraq the average worker makes $6. aday not a hour and that is on a american base O and buy the way since I got my walters book I have looked at it every day The lower end you talked about is the same Junk that we all stated with back 30 years ago I do buy on line mostly ebay over here NOT a lot of swap meets in Baghdad. Or at least that I'm willing to go to.

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