Critical??

[tatans]

Hopefully this topic does not come off as elitist rambling, I just viewed a site on the internet of an HO layout that was constructed with a LOT of money and resources, it was large with much rolling stock ,locos, etc. upon a closer look there seemed to be no imagination used, buildings plopped here and there, streetlights everywhere, roads with badly painted markings, piles of plastic autos (yellow & green), nothing weathered, poles leaning, far too many figures everywhere with the little squares holding them up, this layout cost a pile of money, well, to me, it didn't look very good for the amount it must have cost. Should a person never comment and keep his feelings to himself (I am), now I have seen layouts that should be in museums and I admire this talent greatly ( much scratchbuilt) I understand this hobby will and should encourage every type to participate, is the result of the above layout because no one ever commented on it for fear of offending them??? I have a feeling this may have happened, the builders of this layout do belong to a club. Is silence golden???

[jeffshultz]

Not golden... but as in everything, tact is a wonderful idea.

[Anonymous]

I pondered this and came to one conclusion. In a form of a question:

"Is the owner HAPPY with what work has been wrought? (Done)"

Years ago I was given a 4x8 layout in a spare area of the basement. The track was "Used" and the landscaping just a plain roll of life like grass mat what such could be found. But it was my second layout and eventually we spent a very messy day building plaster of paris mountains along two edges and got them colored grey.

To me that was an empire full of expansive possibilities.

Until I thought of the work that really needed to be done to bring it up to a certain "standard" exhibited by those who has the resources, money, talent and space to make it all happen. Pick any railroad built in the MR or anywhere that you might have seen.

Find something that you like with that railroad. Enjoy it. I personally cannot stand tyco cars or brass track that needs 1 hour cleaning for every 15 minutes of "Hopefully it will run" with a loco picking up one truck power. Or figures from a Green army men set with different wild clashing scenes or things that are best off not placed on a railroad.

However,

If the owner genuinly (spelling?) enjoys the railroad and desires to share with others then that I think is the best we can ever hope for in this hobby.

I rather have that than millions of true scale protypical fidelity worlds locked away somewhere never be seen by anyone.

Now that I said that, let me build for a moment onto jeffshultz's use of the word "tact" I am not a tactful person. It is very difficult to be tactful. I am very blunt. Now. after some thought I probably would try something like:

"Those figures are really good, can we find some ground cover to give them some dirt to walk on besides plastic?"

Perhaps a few figures might look "lost" and might need to be placed with similar birds of a feather somewhere like a bus station, depot or some place on the layout where it seems like life is actually taking place.

Just dont need to see those plastic squares. Dont even need to glue em either, just a little dirt around the feet might help wonders.

Maybe I said too much, but it is my two cents.

[Anonymous]

Tatans,

It is only a hobby.... If the guy is having fun who cares. I never comment on other's work unless I know the person extremely well or I can say something positive. I have been on layout tours where we have driven an hour through traffic to see a layout descibed as fully sceniced railroad empire , to find that it is lionel track nailed to a board.....These situations call for superhuman restraint. The guy seemed to be having a good time.....

I am not sure that people make the type of layouts that you describe because they lack critique, I presume it is the first effort and if they are into the hobby things will improve. But if they keep the same level of modeling and go out and run trains every night and have a ball, who is to say that some one else who sweats grab irons and super elevated curves is really getting any more out of the hobby???

As a musician, I use the same analogy for the hacker who sits and scratches out the three tunes he knows every night on his guitar. Is he really having less of an experience than Segovia did???? He may not reach the same artistic standards, but he might be having as much or even more fun.......Of course the audience may have a different opinion. Now I'm rambling...

[jxtrrx]

My thoughts are along the same lines as HighIron’s. I think everyone has a different vision of what model railroading is all about. For you it may be scratch building, weathering and creating. For the next guy it may be watching lots of locos zip by well lighted cities with lots of yellow and green cars. (Or he just may not have the talent or imagination to do any better, and wishes he could). As far as the money issue: if he can afford to buy (and plop onto the layout) what I only wish I could… more power to him! My vote: Silence IS golden.

-Jack

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250
I have been on layout tours where we have driven an hour through traffic to see a layout descibed as fully sceniced railroad empire , to find that it is lionel track nailed to a board.....These situations call for superhuman restraint. The guy seemed to be having a good time.....

I too have been in such situations. 40-50 guys jammed into a bus to visit a "super" layout, only to find a minimalist effort waiting for us. I don't take fault with the layout at all - if the owner enjoys it, then that is fine with me!

What I do mind is the convention committee putting my busload of modelers through this effort. We visited 4-6 layouts, and did not need to see the skimpy ones. More quality time at the obviously better layouts would have been more appreciated by me.

How can 55 modelers appreciate a G scale layout built in a garden shed that we could only see from the doorway? It seems to me that the layout tour committees in large conventions seem to accept all layouts for the tours without actually checking them out. Don't waste our time!

Getting back to the main subject of this thread (finally!), I've personally never said anything bad about other modelers' efforts. If I'm asked for suggestions on improvements, I will try to pass them along so as not to be too critical.

I belong to a modular model railroad club, and most of our members have brought their modules up to very high standards on their own without much help from the rest of us. Our layout has won the "peoples choice" award many times.

Yet there are other modular layouts that are thought of as "Plywood Central" - you know the type - some track laid on plywood, sometimes it is even painted green or has some uniformly green scenic grass applied. To the owners, their modules are great, and I hope by seeing our higher level of scenic development that they will take some hints.

Bob Boudreau

[fievel]

Excellent points, Trainnut 1250 ! You're quite the philosopher ! I have always
assumed that everybody would be happiest with the highest level of detailing
that they could manage on their layout. I'll have to keep that in mind when I'm
asked for an opinion about someone's creative efforts.[:)]

[pike-62]

Please don't critisize his work if he is not asking for it. A while back, on another forum, I posted a technique that i used to do some scenery work in case somebody might find it usefull. I even posted a couple of pictures of the results. Most people liked it and even thanked me for sharing, but one guy made the comment that it did not look realistic and my results were not worth the effort I put into it. I now think long and hard about posting any of my work on any forum. It is hard enough to get people to "come out of the closet" in this hobby. The point has been made by others that if the person who owns it is happy with it then that is all that realy matters. I look at other layouts and think to myself, Wow, I wish I could model like that! and see others where someone who is starting out has the grass mat down over plywood and some brass track and is as proud of it as a new parent.
Thanks for letting me ramble

Dan Pikulski
www.DansResinCasting.com

[Eriediamond]

I tend to agree with all the above. My comment to all this is, and some my disagree with me here, that model railroading is to me a form of art. An artist will paint a portrate, useing canvas and paint. Each artist sees the subject differently, and uses different technics to achieve his goal.The results can be a disasterous to a near perfect image. We as modelers are trying to mimick a real railroad, however some mimick better than others.My first railroad was a Lionel Scout set back in the 40's and had buildings made from old shoe boxes hand decorated with crayons. To me they were real buildings. Of coarse over the years my modeling skills have improved (I hope).To be exactly right or perfect, photos will capture the real thing but you can't operate photografts. To all this, I would add, that while working on our club layout, I try to do my best work, but I'm not so particular on my home layout. I feel that the club layout is viewed by the public whereas my home layout doesn't need the high standards a public layout needs. Quoteing a few answers above, I'm now rambling. Ken

[Anonymous]

I view MR as a hobby. As such, each person will have their own unique approach to the hobby, although they may "follow", at least at the beginning, someone elses philosophy.

If someone doesnt' have a lot of time, but wants to toss a bunch of money at a layout and have it professionally done, or just buy all "built-ups" and plop them on the layout, that's their choice. If they are happy with it, so be it.

Same thing for the guy that hand lays all his track, makes his own turn-outs and scratchbuild everything. HIs choice. If he's happy, great.

My own commentary on this is that if the layouts were being "judged" realative to creativity and artistic quality, etc... it would be obvious to most who "bought" their layout and who "built" their layout. But again, most people aren't in this hobby to have their layout on the front page of MR magazine.

[ereimer]

while i can't understand anyone spending a lot of money on a layout that apparently doesn't look all that good , it's obvious that the owner is satisfied with it or he wouldn't have put up a web site showing it off . the nice thing about viewing a layout on the web is that you don't have to comment , and as my mother always says "if you can't say anything nice , shut yer gob"

[selector]

Interesting. I would ask those who care to to go back and spend some time on the recent thread about 'loners'...it should be a page or two back at most. Once you are familiar with the general gist there, come back and reread some of these. Do you see a correlation at all?

Food for thought.

[tatans]

Me again, as usual, great answers and great insight, your replies are spot on. 2 observations: 1: Remind myself the person is having a blast with his layout and deserves encouragement. 2: As highiron says, (sometimes) cheerful suggestions and hints on improving their setup or information as to where to find it. Thanks again. I'll be looking at layouts with a different point of view.

[IRONROOSTER]

One thing to keep in mind is that for many of us model railroading is a life long learning experience. I know I started with Tyco trains, Atlas buildings, brass Snap Track. None of these did I paint, weather, etc in the beginning. As I have progressed in the hobby I desire more realistic rolling stock, track, etc. with better detail or more detail. In some cases that has meant buying better kits, in some cases I up graded some of the components, in other cases it has meant scratchbuilding, in still others it means painting that plastic kit.

But I am also aware that at some point I have to compromise with the size of the railroad I want to build. It becomes a choice between a small highly detailed layout or a larger less detailed layout or a large layout with a lot of RTR. I purposely omit a definition of what is large or highly detailed as that is up to each of us to decide.

But sometimes I just set up the Lionel NYC Flyer set I have on a table. I run the train, blow the whistle, and watch the smoke.

Enjoy
Paul

[rogerhensley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by danpik

I even posted a couple of pictures of the results. Most people liked it and even thanked me for sharing, but one guy made the comment that it did not look realistic and my results were not worth the effort I put into it. I now think long and hard about posting any of my work on any forum.

First, I never saw a layout that I didn't find something that I liked about it. Yes, there were a couple that I did have to look hard, but it was there. I don't criticize and on a tour, I will always thank the owner for letting me come in and see their work.

That said, as the feeling mentioned in the above quote, I will no longer open my layout to tours simply because of some of the comments that have been made about something on the railroad. 'That paint scheme isn't right." Yes, it is and I have the photos to prove it. "Why don't you get rid of those Athearns and get some real engines." Why don't you hit the door. That one Athearn has worked faithfully for over 20 years and has earned the right to be updated and detailed whether it has a scale width hood or not.

Think before you comment, and if you aren't asked, say nothing, just enjoy the other persons efforts as they are.
[:)]

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

Tatans,

It is only a hobby.... If the guy is having fun who cares. I never comment on other's work unless I know the person extremely well or I can say something positive. I have been on layout tours where we have driven an hour through traffic to see a layout descibed as fully sceniced railroad empire , to find that it is lionel track nailed to a board.....These situations call for superhuman restraint. The guy seemed to be having a good time.....

As a musician, I use the same analogy for the hacker who sits and scratches out the three tunes he knows every night on his guitar. Is he really having less of an experience than Segovia did???? He may not reach the same artistic standards, but he might be having as much or even more fun.......Of course the audience may have a different opinion.

[#ditto]

Last fall I went to train meet and during the afternoon visited several quite good layouts. I say "quite good" but not world class by any means. The owners were having the time of their lives proudly showing us their pikes. It was obvious they were enjoying the hobby. The day had one more good thing for me..... It made me feel very good about the work that I was doing on my own layout.

Tatans, your music comparison is an excellent one! At Eastman we were taught to be super critical of all performances to help us be critical of (and improve) our own. Sometimes that becomes too easy to "share" that critique with others...?? I have learned a lot by seeing the work shared here at the forum. I have often learned things that I want to try mysef and sometimes I have learned how I don't want to do things. I do try to remember that old adage: "Only say good things about people.... and man is this good!!!!"

My Mother is almost 88 and still plays the piano in spite of advancing dementia (much rather hear Segovia at that age, but then...) She has a few pieces that she has memorized from her youth. Every "concert" starts with March of the Toy Soldiers Then she announces that she will play another song, and proceeds to play March of the Toy Soldiers...... LOL But she is having a lot of fun and is so proud of being able to play. I tried my best to get that idea of personal satisfaction across to my students when I taught (Once in a while I might have succeeded).

[selector]

To put this all in perspective, it is all relative. Ray, your Mum is in the advanced stages of presenile dementia, a sad time for you...very distressing. But if I may use your situation as an observation, she is still able to play one song passably well despite her condition, AND SHE IS HAVING A BALL! I wish I could play one piece of music on a piano, dementia nor no. I guess it is the same with model railroading; some of us have it, and some of us don't. Just don't ask me what "it' is. The answer could be meaningless.

[davekelly]

This thread has been so very refreshing. Compare to what caused a member to title a thread "MRR Snobs." Yup - if the person is smiling - he/she is a successful model rail in my book!

[howmus]

Selector, Well Said! (Actually my mom can still play quite a few songs, she just forgets which one she just played, and happens to like that one.) She gets to show off quite often at the Assisted Living Center where she lives. I think we all like to show off from time to time and it sure is nice for people to find something nice to say even when it is not perfect (or for that matter when it isn't even good.....) The important person to please in a hobby, is yourself. Having someone else really like your work is just frosting on the cake. Having said that, my sister (the artist) was just here and wanted to see the stuff I've been doing. She stood there and stared at the mountain, then examined every detail and then said, "you know, you do have a good eye, that's really good!" So I feel pretty good this evening! Someone who really knows, thought it was good....

Remember: Be kind to the people you meet on the way up, because they are the same people you will meet on the way down!

[selector]

Absolutely, Ray. It is so easy to find fault, more-so on some layouts, but the 'decent' thing would be to focus on one little detail and marvel at it so that the builder gains some pride and wants to go on.

If we found fault with our children's creations, they would be beaten, dejected, self-loathing creatures before they were five. We quickly learn to praise them, thus encouraging them. Why would we not do that for anyone who was looking for approval? It would cost nothing, and we might nurture a Joe, a Randy, a Karl, a Pele, a....(tell me when to stop!)

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

I just viewed a site on the internet of an HO layout ..., to me, it didn't look very good .... Should a person never comment and keep his feelings to himself (I am), now I have seen layouts that should be in museums and I admire this talent greatly ( much scratchbuilt) I understand this hobby will and should encourage every type to participate, is the result of the above layout because no one ever commented on it for fear of offending them??? I have a feeling this may have happened, the builders of this layout do belong to a club. Is silence golden???

Ditto to what most other people have said. Plus one has to get to a certain state before they can even know they want to move on. We don't have to force the Peter Principle on model railroaders, let them move to the level of their ability and happyness and be happy with them.

With some people I'll ask questions of their technique and let them explain it. Then I'll ask if they have ever tried or considered trying X. A simple nudge that they can take or reject at their will.

[bikerraypa]

I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. i've been in a bit of a "hobby rut" lately, and reading everyone's opinions here has helped me realize how happy I am with what *I* am doing. I don't know much, but what I DO know, I try to be willing to share. And seeing other people happy with their layouts makes me even happier with mine.

Nice group we've got here. [:)] Keep it up.


Ray

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bikerraypa

I I don't know much, but what I DO know, I try to be willing to share.

I often discover that doing so leads to learning more. It's one of those endless cycles. You know a little - you share what you know and learn more. This gives you more to share which leads to even more learning. A great vicious cycle to be in!!! It's also a great way to generate lots of smiling and new friends!

[Anonymous]

I had this kind of a layout myself. It meant the world to me because I built it together with my ex-girlfriend when she was recovering from a *** cancer surgery, and even though nothing was weathered, loads of people with little plastic squared, 40´ wood cars behind an SD70M, grass mat as sidewalk, it is still my favorite layout because we worked on it together, and I we got to spend so much time together on it in such a critical situation. Even after we split up, I still remember how building this layout together took the fear and tension of this episode from the both of us.

[Anonymous]

I feel has most of you above I look for the good things on a persons layout, and I always come away with a few new ideas to try on my own layout.
Our little corner of the world was invited my a group that goes by the name of (Pro railers) you must have DCC, you must operate with train orders, what do you mean you still use a tag stystem on top of your cars you can't do that you have to have card cards?
End result I now only run my layout by myself, this is what happens when we are to critical of others layouts. I am not the only one this has happened to that I have talked to , what am I trying to said is lighten up its only a hobby and we all have diffrent skill levels, just look for the good in that persons skills.