Catenary construction tips?

[Anonymous]

Does anyone have any useful tips or hints on how to construct catenaries in HO scale?
E.g., what gauge/diameter of wire to use, what type of wire to use (stainless steel, copper, etc?)
What height should the pick-up wire be above the rails, etc . . .
Anything you can think of - including useful links - would be most gratefully accepted!
I am planning a room sized layout which will have the main lines 'electrified' by an overhead catenary system. It is not expected to be a live pick-up system as I understand that any breaks in power (almost inevitable with overhead pick-up) are anethema for DCC operation - would I be correct in assuming that?

[ndbprr]

The hardest part of catenary is starting. That being said there is a lot to putting up cat and how detailed you want to be. Real Cat has a top wire that has a sag in it (due to gravity), a second wire hung perfectly horizintal and a third wire for contact below that. The best material is Phosphorous bronze wire available at most wire suppliers. When I bought mine 20 years ago I asked the wire house for 400' and they told me it would be $20.00 (minimum order). So while waiting for it it dawned on me to ask ho much it cost per pound and they said something like $2.00 so I changed the order to ten pounds. I still have about seven miles of wire left! Walthers chrages an arm an legh for 50'. Real wire is about 3/4" in diameter which is about .008". As I recall mine is about .015" and is more rugged. I made cat poiles from plastruct shapes and drilled holes directly over the center line of the track I made brackets shaped like a [ from larger phos bronze wire to isolate sections and pulled the top wire straight. You will also need to use some poles made of brass on the outside of curves to hold the cat over the centerline. I then used the little minature 1/4" staples as standoffs between the top and bottom wire. That gave me a large surface to solder to at both top and bottom. Other than time it wasn't hard once I started. I had very little repair to the wire over about a ten year period. Just be sure to leave an area without cat like a siding where you can put trains on the track. Derailments under catenary require a little more finesse to clean up but you soon learn the tricks.

[CNJ831]

First of all, do youself an enormous favor and purchase a hardcopy reference on the subject of traction modeling and don't rely strictly on on-line sources you might find. At the moment eBay has listed at least two copies of RMC's Traction Planbook for Modelers. It's a tried and true reference, even if not absolutely up to date. I'd also strongly recommend obtaining copies of the three MR articles on building modest traction layouts that have appeared oven the last ten or fifteen years or so. While there is a certain amount of difference between heavy electric mainline operation and simple one-track traction (trolleys), the basics of the complex wiring necessary are still at least similar.

I anticipated that the biggest stumbling block you might encounter is if you plan to model something like the PRR's or NH's multi-track mainline, as it is difficult to obtain American-looking mainline catenary assemblies. Model Memories has NH and I think PRR catenary but modeling any real length of mainline will prove a very expensive deal indeed. The cheaper European catenary systems are very different looking from most U.S. versions.

There also was/is a quarterly magazine on traction modeling, as well as an NMRA Traction Special Interest Group, that may prove helpful.

CNJ831

[tatans]

Catenary systems have intrigued me, I admire anyone attempting a gigantic project such as this , does anyone out that has a catenary layout have photos of their set up ? I see very few, if any photos, please post a few photos of your layout, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Its not my work, so I couldn't explain any construction tips, but I recently came across some photos while looking up N Gauge B-Train Shorties. Scroll down the page a bit to get to the Shorty photos, click on the photos for a larger image of Japanese style catenary in action with DCC:
http://hobbyworld.aoshima-bk.co.jp/hobbyworld/egallery/

Cheers,
Maureen

[Anonymous]

Nice thread!! I was wondering about this for my GG-1. It would just be so cool!!!

[Anonymous]

hi,

try this links:

http://www.locorevue.com/site/Lien/affichageLien.asp?idSegmentation=0000103

it may help.

a good one is this one:

http://club.ccac.free.fr/

check at the photo section.

regards,

nick

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Maureen
Its not my work, so I couldn't explain any construction tips, but I recently came across some photos while looking up N Gauge B-Train Shorties. Scroll down the page a bit to get to the Shorty photos, click on the photos for a larger image of Japanese style catenary in action with DCC:
http://hobbyworld.aoshima-bk.co.jp/hobbyworld/egallery/

Maureen,

I don't see any trains here, never mind any catenaries. Are you sure you have the correct web address ?

[trolleyboy]

Look into the bowser company web page. They make catenery supports, wire, hangers & some very decent running models as well. Rob

[AntonioFP45]

Bilby,

Check out the "For New Haven Fans" thread. You'll see posts from NHRRJet, known as Rick Abramsom. He's built an outstanding New Haven Railroad layout that was featured in Model Railroader Magazine last year. He did a beautiful job on his catenary work.

Contact him as he might be able to give you some tips.

Hope this helps!

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trolleyboy

Look into the bowser company web page. They make catenery supports, wire, hangers & some very decent running models as well. Rob

Perhaps a better choice than Bowser's product for simple, single pole, trolley, catenary would be the brass poles and parts offered by one or two current companies. The Browser poles are based on very old technology and are still made of easily broken diecast zamac, not really a very durable material if placed near the layout's edge where it can be bumped.

On the other hand, the inexpensive Bowser trolley pole kit might well make good practice material for trying out any simple catenary arrangement before deciding whether you really want to go extensively into this rather difficult area of modeling.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

http://hobbyworld.aoshima-bk.co.jp/hobbyworld/egallery/

I don't see any trains here, never mind any catenaries. Are you sure you have the correct web address ?

Yup. I clicked on the link and it came to the right page. Scroll down to the 5th item.

Maureen

[BR60103]

There are several threads with catenary photos at the-gauge.com. There is a thread starting about catenary construction.
I've built simple catenary for streetcars using dowels, small gauge wire and cast trolley ears.

[dinwitty]

I will be custom making all my stuff for my South Shore line.
Welding Brass Rods of different sizes, cheapo...
cut and solder to suit.

Be ready for some careful soldering.

[Anonymous]

Billy,

What prototype are you planning to model??? I scratchbuilt a trolley style overhead system using parts from O'Toole LIne and instructions from George Huckaby at Customtraxx. I ran Marklin locomotives taking power from the catenenary wire using pantographs. They ran very well. Construction was very time consuming an pretty frustrating at times to get it to look right, but in the end it was a very satisfying project. Click on my link and look at the photo of the electric loco in the weeds for an example of my wires.

[Anonymous]

Best stuff comes from Germany, as that is where all of the electric trains run...

where to buy it:
http://www.sommerfeldt.de/index2.html

how it looks when done right:
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/era_iv/bahnhof.html

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR1116
Best stuff comes from Germany, as that is where all of the electric trains run...

That's funny. I was under the impression that the TGV in France and the Japanese Bullet trains were electric. Not to mention some British, Italian, and other European trains.

[Anonymous]

That wasn't meant to be the all inclusive statement that it sounded like, Sorry if it sounded that way. However, the fact is that with the exception for the shin kan sen(as I have no idea where it's technology originates from), the electrification of Europe was largely done by the German firms (namely Siemens, AEG and Krauss Maffei). Pre-and Post WWII, they were the leading technology for locomotion. Also the majority of electric locs made today are made in Germany... even the Bombardier models are based on the Siemens Eurosprinter family (like the one the NJ Transit is using now).. the majority of SNCF models are Germany, and the TGV uses German rail technology (transformer, as well as other components).

Not since the day of the GG1 did we make an electric train of any significant importance.

more useful info on Siemens and German electric trains accross the world are here: Down load the .pdf's at the right side of the website.

http://www.transportation.siemens.com/ts/en/pub/products/lm.htm

[Anonymous]

Two naive questions: Is there much difference between the catenary used on the Pensy, N.H. and Great Northern systems? Next, why is there so much diference in appearance between U.S. and European systems? I have "hung some wire" (single lines over double track) on the traction section of my HO layout. I referred to "Traction Guidebook for Model Railroaders" (ed. Mike Schafer, Kalmbach Pub. Co. 2nd printing 1977). Lots of good information on trolly/interurban overhead. Bilby2K, my hat is off to you for undertaking such an ambitious challenge. Best of luck.

[ndbprr]

Can't talk about GN but there is a vast difference between the PRR and NH. The PRR uses a single wire to hang the contact wire from. NH uses two wires to form the catenary that are side by side so they form a triangle with the contact wire. The reason for the difference between US and European practice is that typically the US is higher voltage needing smaller wire for transmission of the current. This is particularly true regarding Swiss wire.

[Anonymous]

Catenary is actually a specific wire arrangement. Stiff lower wire supported by a wire(s) from above. These vary significantly from trolley style wires which are supported from the side mainly and do not have the second wire directly above. Catenary systems are under quite a bit of tension and are often used for high speed, long distance rail ines using pantographs for power pick up whereas trolley systems are often used in lower speed interurban systems using trolley poles for pick up. This is why I was asking about which prototype you intend to model. It will influence which system you build.

Br1116 and I disagree about Sommerfeldt wire. While it is the best of the commercially available wire, I feel that it is still way too heavy looking. That is why I scratchbuilt my wires. The problem in HO scale is that wires that are in scale are very thin and hard to work with. I have had operators reach right into a scene and hit the wires because they couldn't see them. One guy completly destroyed a wooden support pole this way. I still like the look of the finer wires. Look at some prototype photos and then pics of some of the commercial model stuff and you will see what I mean about how heavy it looks compared to prototype wire.

[MRTerry]

Happy Monday, guys.
For a guy who's looking for relatively quick route to a decent-appearing overhead system, the Viessmann system offers a good compromise - nearly scale-sized wire and no soldering. Marklin has (or will be soon) replaced their old stamped-metal catenary with a version of this system. I believe that most of the pieces in the line are German prototype. I can't really describe how the system works, but here are two sites that offer it: www.nehobby.com and www.eurorailhobbies.com

The Viessmann homepage is http://www.viessmann-modell.com/

Also, one of our PDF download packages is on getting started in electrified railroading. The old MR Traction Guidebook is pretty good also, but it has been out of print for many, many years.

Good luck, and thanks for reading MR.

Terry

[Anonymous]

Wow! Thanks for all the great tips and your help with useful links.
I am based in Queensland, Australia (hence my moniker of Bilby - look it up!) - where we have mostly electric suburban trains, too, as well as tram car systems in several cities like Sydney and Melbourne for example.
My upcoming 8m x 11m layout is not based on any particular prototype as I like too many different locos and rolling stock from many countries!
My friends in the clubs I belong to, model various prototypes in Australia, Europe and the USA. Many of them also model UK outlines which are in OO scale.
To "justify" running their rolling stock when they come to visit, I am designing the layout to be set in the 21st Century in an undetermined English speaking country during International Transport Week - so anything is welcome!
There will be a large city terminus station, a city tramway system (to justify my love for tramcars), a dockside scene with a container depot and loads of opportunities for shunting, a monorail system based on the popular one which goes around Sydney City Centre, rugged rural scenery and even a logging track high up in the hills - I love my little Bachmann Shay . . .
There will be a few other areas of interactive movement, too. My intention is to keep people's interest going with plenty of activities and lots of opportunity for different modelling skills.
I don't have the patience to model a strict prototype - although I have the greatest admiration for those who do. I just want to have FUN! - so Rivet Counters Beware!
The whole thing will be DCC powered, including the tramway system - lots of fun for many years to come!
Thank you all once again for your most welcome help.
This really is The World's Greatest Hobby!
[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

.

Br1116 and I disagree about Sommerfeldt wire. While it is the best of the commercially available wire, I feel that it is still way too heavy looking.

We may not actually disagree, as I'm sure if your modeling skills are up to par (as I'm sure they are) you can make much more prototypical looking wire... I wonder how functional it would be however? Are you able to get enough current thru the wire and enough contact against the pantograph to run the locs? My only reason for going to the major effort of adding it is to actually run my locomotives off of the pantograph.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MReditor

Happy Monday, guys.
For a guy who's looking for relatively quick route to a decent-appearing overhead system, the Viessmann system offers a good compromise - nearly scale-sized wire and no soldering. Marklin has (or will be soon) replaced their old stamped-metal catenary with a version of this system. I believe that most of the pieces in the line are German prototype. I can't really describe how the system works, but here are two sites that offer it: www.nehobby.com and www.eurorailhobbies.com

The Viessmann homepage is http://www.viessmann-modell.com/

Also, one of our PDF download packages is on getting started in electrified railroading. The old MR Traction Guidebook is pretty good also, but it has been out of print for many, many years.

Good luck, and thanks for reading MR.

Terry

Good links Terry, and I believe the Marklin stuff is out now, and it's pretty impressive compared to their prior stuff which was getting a bit dated..

[Anonymous]

BR1116,

Look at my link in my signature. Click on the crocodile photo and the reefer photo to see the wires I made. I ran locos from these wires just fine. They are a little heavy but much closer than prototype. I'm glad Marklin finally updated their overhead wires. I had a large Marklin layout as a teenager with the stamped stuff. Didn't look great, but ran well and still was very cool. I'm sure someday I'll come across the old stuff and start waxing nostalgic....
.
.

[Anonymous]

Very mice Guy... requires a bit of skill and raw materials I suppose, but you seem to have it down to a science... two thumbs up!

[trolleyboy]

As stated before the bowser poles are fragile but are easy to use. One other suggestion that I have is alpine scale models they manufacture overhead wire and polls this is the old sudyam line. www.customtraxx.com lists them. I beleave the Bowser site has a link for alpine as well.If you want large interurban catanery bridges check out MTS imports they are making some new bridge kits based off the old South shore Line. Rob

[Anonymous]

I found these nice video's of the old style Marklin Catenary in action.

http://www.marklinfan.it/plastici_d'epoca.htm

[dinwitty]

Streetcar wire will "hang" like any other wire, catenary will have extra support to keep it as level as possible.

Situation in model form is we don't have those prototype problems so we simulate it in some manner.
Your likely to pull your main wire taut and then form the support wires to make the "bend" in the curved wires.