Joe Fugate: Question regarding DCC decoder brands

[jfugate]

Rhuddlestan:

Will be talkiing about how to speed match locos in my DCC Forum clinic as one of the topics.

One tidbit now that may help - I use DecoderPro to program my decoders since that lets me use a laptop and "clicky-clicky" with a mouse to quickly program decoders. To speed match I program on the main and use two windows -- one for each of the locos in DecoderPro.

Very convenient.

P.S. Will be demonstrating this in my upcoming video on things DCC.

[Anonymous]

Hey Joe
Wondered if I might be jumping the gun with my question. I look forward to your further discussion of the DCC world. Much usefull info! Thanks a lot!!!
Rob

[AntonioFP45]

Joe!

I've got a bone to pick with ya! (O.K, maybe a splinter ). I found something you didn't share on this forum before. It's on the website where you have the sound equipped locomotive lashup.

After playing the videos several times and enjoying the locomotive concert, I finally scrolled down to the posts and noticed that you posted a quick line regarding a "quirky" problem with Soundtraxx's DSX decoder. Would you mind elaborating on this?

I was considering the DSX option since it "supposedly" offers a more powerful sound than the DSD "L" series due to the DSX's more powerful amplifier.

Thanks!

[jfugate]

Antonio:

I'm out starting today and won't be back online until Monday.

Got your question and will address it then. In the meantime, off to the SP mini-meet!
[:D]

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,
Thanks for the info in Dallee's sound systems. They seem to have what I'm looking for.
Great video. Have you tried running 3 sound equiped units together, and is there any improvement in sound? Do they sound like 3 separate units or just one?
Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

Antonio:

Back from the SP meet (had a great time ... will be posting a complete report with photos over on my forum) so let me address your DSX question.

The DSX decoder, as you may know, is the sound half of the SoundTraxx DSD150 series of premium sound decoders (being replaced by the Tsunami). Since the DSX is *only* the sound part of the decoder, it acts really goofy if you happen to program a CV that's "not there" as part of the motor control.

In addition, there is no "DSX" manual. You have to use a DSD150 manual and *guess* as to which CVs apply to the DSX and those that do not. It's not always really obvious which ones do and don't.

The trouble is, a standard decoder will briefly spin the motor to respond during programming so you know the change "took". With the DSX, you don't have that. I found I would change a CV setting, get no feedback that it took, and then when I tried the decoder it didn't seem like anything changed. Without the motor hanging off the decoder, there's no easy way to readback CV settings either.

Now if you want to add the DSX as a sound add on to a unit with a motor decoder, life gets interesting too, because there's going to be CV overlaps and you will drive yourself nuts if you make both decoders the same address. You're better off to *consist* the DSX in so it has it's own unique address for addressing CVs but will play sounds on the consist address. But if you run double-ended consists like I do, this ham-strings your options if you want the sound decoder to work in *both* consists (one consist is left-to-right, the other consist is right-to-left -- very handy for modern diesel op sessions where you run a turn).

In short, working with a DSX decoder really leaves a lot to be desired. It's almost easier to spring for a DSD100 series decoder that's expecting a motor, even if you're targeting a dummy unit. Just run some jumpers from the gray and orange wires on the sound decoder and connect them to the motor leads of a unit up on blocks. Then programming the dummy decoder is a breeze. You do, howver, have to remove the loco shell to do this -- but if you want positive feedback that the CV settings are taking, this works really well.

The one DSX I own drove me so crazy trying to program it that I finally gave up in frustration and replaced it with a DSD100LC. The DSX is still just sitting on my shelf. I may stick it in another unit and try again, we'll see.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

Joe,
Thanks for the info in Dallee's sound systems. They seem to have what I'm looking for.
Great video. Have you tried running 3 sound equiped units together, and is there any improvement in sound? Do they sound like 3 separate units or just one?
Bob Hayes

Bob:

I haven't really tried this ... I guess I ought to.

The jump from no sound to one unit in the lashup with sound is so significant, I suspect the addition of still more units with sound in the same lashup won't add that much more like the jump from no sound to sound does.

At the price of sound-equipped locos and sound decoders, I've been so pleased with the addtion of a single sound unit to the lashup that I haven't been especially concerned about wanting to increase the cost still more by putting more units with sound in the lashup.

Besides, adding sound to a loco doubles or triples its current draw. So put enough sound-equipped locos on your layout and you'll need to double or triple the number of power boosters you need to use, which means adding sound to most of your locos becomes a good way to double or triple the cost of your layout -- no kidding, since the single most expensive thing you have on your layout are your locos.

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,
I wasn't suggesting you go out and buy more sound decoders. I just thought you probably had at least 3 consists with 1 sound equiped loco in each, that you could break up and re-assemble into a 3 unit all sound equiped consist and maybe post a short video of how they sound together.
Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

Joe,
I wasn't suggesting you go out and buy more sound decoders. I just thought you probably had at least 3 consists with 1 sound equiped loco in each, that you could break up and re-assemble into a 3 unit all sound equiped consist and maybe post a short video of how they sound together.
Bob Hayes

Bob:

Sure, that's what I meant by "I ought to try this ..." was to take sound units from several lashups and try just what you asked to see if it sounds any different.

But even if it does, I bet it's not *that much* different, so it's more of an academic exercise than a call to run out and buy lots more sound decoders ... [;)]

But I will try it and let you know what I think.

[AntonioFP45]

Joe,

RE: Dallee Sound modules that you mentioned earlier.

Have you heard locomotives equipped with these before? If so, how would you compare them to Soundtraxx equipped units?

The Dallee Web site lists the available diesel locomotive sounds. Looks like a nice variety, however, Dallee doesn't provide "sound samples" to click on to.

Thanks![:D][8D]

[jfugate]

Antonio:

I've not heard any DALLEE sound modules, nor have I ever installed them. I've only downloaded and read their manuals. Looks pretty straightforward, but since they're not decoders, you have to pop the loco shell to change volume or any configuration settings.

Once you get things set where you like them, the need to pop the shell should be infrequent, but it's important to note they *are not* sound decoders, simply DCC compatible sound modules.

You'll have to install them in a loco that already has a decoder and will have to hardwire the sound module to function leads and such off the decoder for it to work with DCC.

[rrinker]

There is a vendor that comes to all the local train shows and sells all the Dallee electronic items. They have a display set up with speakers and so forth to demo the cound units - if they are at the show next weekend I will check them out more closely. The first time I saw them, they were only sound modules for tinplate trains, so I subsequently ignored them. But now that they have the others that will work with a DCC decoder, I will take a closer look.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I'm currently planning to use one of the Lenz Gold decoders in a Fleischmann diesel I'm converting for DCC - one feature in particular interests me. I've read in the literature about these decoders at www.mackaymodels.co.uk/ that they can have an additional small power storage unit soldered on (guessing this is some form of battery or capacitor) to enable them to handle breaks in the power supply (like dead frog points, or dirt spots). I'm mainly wondering if anyone has any experience of using this feature - how good is it, how big is the battery, that sort of information. Any advice would be welcome!

[rrinker]

It's a capacitor. Pretty nifty. But I still cant figure out how they can actually respond to commands when there is no track contact whatsoever (the demo where they runt he loco onto a sheet of paper). I can undertands the cap providing power to continue the loco moving under the same state as the last good command, but the signal is in the rails, no rail contact = no commands can be received. Unless they are inductively coupling the DCC signal on the track - in which case it might work over a piece of paper, but stuff that blocks RF better would block the signal. Without true through the air radio control of the locos, operating with no track contact just isn't going to happen.
As for the need for the keepalive in the first place - I keep my track clean, and my locos have 8 wheel or better pickup , and my frogs wil be powered when I get aound to it. So none of my stuff NOW stutters even at the slowest speed.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Thanks Randy - I'm mainly interested in fitting it to one loco I have which only has 4 wheel pickup (Fleischmann seem to think having four traction tyres on the powered truck is more important than all wheel pickup!) I agree it's not needed for most locos - just this one isn't too keen on dead frogs (short wheelbase trucks and only picks up on one of them) and I'd like to smooth it out a little - it runs well on clean track so I just need something that'll carry it over the odd dirt spot or dead frog (planning to use the live variety in future but don't fancy tearing my layout apart to replace the ones I have - nothing else has trouble with them). So long as it then responds to commands when it returns to live rails I'll be happy!

[Anonymous]

Joe

You said you have a DSD100LC in a loco of yours; I have a problem with my decoder and was wondering if you have had this problem in any of yours at all. When my loco is just sitting on the track and the power is on but no one has called it up on the system it takes off after a while at full throttle. I can also run it then release from the controller and in a 30 min period it will take off like a F16, plowing anything in its path. I then programmed it so it was manual notching on the throttle and Soundtraxx says your engine won't move unless it is in notch one or better. I hate to say it but Soundtraxx was wrong on that one, it takes off even when it is in the off position and no sound at all is coming from the chip. I have about 60 engines with chips and I have narrowed it down that a command over loco net is what triggers it to take off. There is no one command that does this but if I change the direction of a different train or change speeds (can be any train so I know it’s not MU’d) that will triggers something in the chip to make it run away. I run Digitrax a DCS200 & DCS100, any thoughts or problem you have had about this on your end?

Also, I was wondering if you know a time frame on when your other videos will be available.

Thanks,
Ross

[jfugate]

Ross:

You want to make sure CV29 is set to analog conversion off. If this is currently on, then you can subtract 4 from the current value in CV29 to set it off. Or set bit 2 off, if you understand how to do that.

When analog conversion is on, I find that decoders will mis-interpret some DCC fluctuations and either stop responding to DCC commands completely, or take off running at full speed for no reason. On a pure DCC layout, you don't need analog conversion to be on, and the aggravation just isn't worth it either.

With analog conversion set off, the occurance of strange decoder behavior drops to almost nil. When it does on rare occassion happen nowdays, I have always been able to track it back to a throttle issue of some kind.

As to the videos:

Volume 1 - Siskiyou Line video tour - available now
Volume 2 - Design and construction - available now
Volume 3 - Electrical and control (lots on DCC): Mid June.
Volume 4 - Scenery and bridges: The holidays 2005
Volume 5 - Operating like the prototype: Spring 2006

[Anonymous]

Thanks Joe,

I will give that a try, I believe it is set to analog conversion right now so my guess is your right.

Thanks a ton and I can't wait to see your new video.
Ross Waters
Spokane WA

[robengland]

Railroading_Brit: I think that "stay alive" feature in the Lenz Gold will have the same issue as the QSI sound: after a short and shutdown, the current they draw when starting up again may fool boosters into thinking there is still a short

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Railroading_Brit: I think that "stay alive" feature in the Lenz Gold will have the same issue as the QSI sound: after a short and shutdown, the current they draw when starting up again may fool boosters into thinking there is still a short

That's my fear as well.

To provide "onboard" power you only have two choices: a capacitor, or a battery.

I'd like to see us do more with batteries. I don't think battery technology has reached the point in HO that you can power a loco very long using *only* an onboard battery, but it ought to be possible to use a rechargeable battery to supply enough power to run over bad spots. When the battery is not supplying power it's recharging from the track power.

It's ironic that HO locos used to draw about an amp each, but improvements in motor technology have dropped that to about .2 amps typically. Back in the days when one power pack powered one train, usually with a single loco, 1 amp per loco wasn't a big deal.

But now with command control technology, you need enough power to run the whole railroad from a single power source. That's not bad with locos drawing about .2 amps each, but now we're moving back the other way with all our fancy electronic features, bringing the typical loco current draw back up to an amp each again.

At this rate, 5 amps isn't going to cut it, and 8 or 10 amps won't either. As you increase the amperage needs of a layout, the cost to power it goes up exponentially. And of course the cost of all these goodies inside the locos is making the "average" HO loco cost $200 or more. The hobby seems to be turning into a pastime for the rich.

[rrinker]

Nice going Joe, I had the exact same idea about battery power and charging in another thread [:D]

As for the cost of sound locos, I suppose if you buy tham on first release. But if you wait like my father in law did, he got his Broadway M1 for only $130. Even if it DIDN'T have sound, I don't know where you coudl get such a detailed and nice running M1 model for that price. I've only ever seen that loco done in brass before - and you know what brass is going for these days! The sound is just icing on the cake.
Yes things are getting expensive - if you only get the ready to run stuff. But in reading old MR issues fromt he 50's, outside of true scratchbuilding, this really has never been a 'cehap' hobby. Sure there was a time when you could get a decent running BB loco for $15, but event hat was a long time ago - the BB switcher I got 14 years ago already was up to $20.
What's worse thant he general price levels is the switch to mostly RTR. Just a sign of our lazy times I guess, where kids won;t work at McDonadl's or as dishwashers in restaurants because such jobs are 'beneath' them, and the parents actually sympathize with them and hand out the money. Where people post questions and get mad if they aren't answered within 5 minutes. Where everyone thinks they DESERVE things they never EARNED. And where you are mean and evil for thinking there's somethign wrong with such attitudes.
You know, if I hit the lottery or something, I could probably afford to have my entire basement filled with a layout in a matter of weeks - but I wouldn't do it. That takes all the fun out of it! I'd STILl want to build it up bit by bit. Work on different projects for variety. Build things from kits - a couple of evenings assembling a decent kit is something I find far more enjoyable than just ripping open a box and putting a completed piece on the track.
OK, so much for the off-topic rant. I like sound, but I don't NEED sound in everything. I can;t AFFORD sound in everything. My plan is to do a few pieces here ad there ith sound, and when those are in a consist with other locos, the appearance will be there.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Railroading_Brit: I think that "stay alive" feature in the Lenz Gold will have the same issue as the QSI sound: after a short and shutdown, the current they draw when starting up again may fool boosters into thinking there is still a short

I was reading the comments about QSI in previous posts - I can see it might be a problem if you had a few of them. I'm only planning to have one loco fitted with it though, maybe two at the most on the track at once, so it shouldn't be a problem. Right now I'm trying to find somewhere that has stocks of the capacitor unit - I can get hold of the Gold decoders easily but not the optional capacitor.

[jfugate]

I agree with the sentiment that sound is a supplement but to not go overboard with it and put sound in *everything*.

I am slowly adding sound to one loco per consist on the Siskiyou Line. I have 60 some locos, and each consist is 2-4 locos, so I have about 20 consists. So that's 20 sound locos to give each consist the impression it has sound.

The transition from no sound to sound is so dramatic that the lack of multiple units in a consist with sound is barely noticeable in comparison. Your brain just assumes the sound is coming from the entire consist, and that's good enough for me!

And I'm using Soundtraxx decoders, so I don't have the issue with inrush current that the QSI stuff does. My friend Charlie Comstock has several QSI locos on his layout and he's using Digitrax, which seems to be the worst combination for getting the problem with the layout not powering back up after a short. Charlie's gone to using the 1156 bulbs on his power districts and his short/power up problem with the QSI stuff has gone away.

But now he's having the other problem ... his power districts are not subdivided so the 1156 bulb is limiting the current to the district to 2 amps and his locos are being affected. I'm telling him he needs to subdivide his power districts into train length sub-blocks but he's annoyed that he has to "wire his layout more like cab control". But if you want all those power hungry locos and decent short management, it's a small price to pay to get a short resistant layout! (See my DCC forum clinic on here for details: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=36389 )

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,
Glad to read that I only have a couple more weeks to wait for volume 3, since I was expecting it in March. Anyway, how did you mount the speaker in the SD45?
Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

Bob:

The Kato SD45 is a bit of a problem because the see through fans on the top of the hood do not go all the way through the shell. They are actually sealed on the inside of the hood, so there is no place for the sound to escape.

The SD45s actually have lots of room over the power trucks on each end of the hood. I cut about 1/4" from the back end of the hood weight (mounted in the top of the shell -- just remove it and cut the ends off with a motor tool and cutoff disk), and installed the extra fat Soundtraxx DSD decoder there.

I use a square oblong speaker and enclosure from Tony's Trains Exchange in the cab and nose area that fits inside the width of the hood. I discarded the cab interior casting, and cut the lip off the inside of the nose. There is a tab on the front of the cab you need to cut off so it does not press against the speaker cone and deaden or distort the sound. I mount the speaker facing up using double-stick carpet tape on the cab floor.

And lastly, since I model July-August on my layout, I removed the cab side windows and model the cab using flow-through air conditioning. [;)] The sound escapes out the open cab windows.

On the video release date, I've been using the DCC FORUM on here to "test" the content that's in volume 3 and based on questions I've been getting (both on the forum and off), I'm reworking some of the material to make sure the explanations are clear.

I have released technical material in other venues before and if I don't explain it very well, I get no end of grief later from people who misunderstood some critical concept. So I am deliberately taking my sweet time on this video to make sure I get it right. The bad news is it's going to be very late, probably into July now.

But the good news is it is going to be thorougly illustrated and explained -- hopefully the best yet of the series in this regard -- and should hang together very well. And it's demonstrating lots of practical DCC techniques that I have never seen covered in print or in video form before.

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,
I was affraid it wasn't simple. Too bad Kato waited so long before making their locos sound ready.
Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

The only thing constant is change, it seems! [swg]

Since this thread first started we've now seen the actual release of the Tsunami (steam) and of course are eagerly awaiting its diesel counterpart.

Then there's Digitrax with its October announcement of a sound decoder line, and we're all waiting with eagerness that release, due any day now they tell us.

My latest experiments are with the new "keep alive" UPS module from Lenz ... I hope to have more to report on that arena soon.

The keep alive feature could take the hobby by storm, I think, since it has the potential to eliminate stuttering loco performance on dirty track or over dead frogs. Imagine never having to nudge your loco ever again, even if the track is dirty ...

[rrinker]

As long as they did it RIGHT. I REALLY hope they did. It is entirely possible to build in a large capacitor as a keep-alive without having an inrush problem. Now I'm thinkign there might be a way to do this to any decoder, not just the Lenz ones that have the connection for it. It would certainly be useful.

Don't hold your breath for the Digitrax sound decoders. The first one will undoubtably go to Overland(Tower55) for their new sound-equipped locos. Reports are mid-January though, for consumer availability of the decoders. There are some interesting things coming along with that decoder, particularly in the method of downloading new sounds to them.

This is definitely a good time for control systems, lots of new options in sound, and exciting new products for interfacing signal systems to the layout.

--Randy

[aluesch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

.... It is entirely possible to build in a large capacitor as a keep-alive without having an inrush problem. Now I'm thinkign there might be a way to do this to any decoder, not just the Lenz ones that have the connection for it. It would certainly be useful....

This is definitely a good time for control systems, lots of new options in sound, and exciting new products for interfacing signal systems to the layout.

--Randy

Hi Randy.

Yes it is possible. ZIMO's decoder manual explains for two years already how to build and wire a capacitor circuit yourself that limits in-rush current. The manual can be downloaded here: http://www.mrsonline.net/html/manuals.html
It starts on page 19. While the capacitor successfully prevents loco's from stopping/jerking on dirty spots, ZIMO went a step further and introduced "smart stop management", which automatically prevents a loco from stopping on dead track sections when bringing the engine to a stop.

ZIMO will be another choice for sound. Delivery of the large-scale sound decoder MX690 starts in March and a few months later the MX640 for HO. Not only can you program the decoders with your own sound files but, as with all ZIMO decoders already, update the firmware yourself via the Internet.

Regards,
Art
Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

[jnichols]

I didn't read every single post in this topic, so I may be jumping the gun on assuming a very good decoder was not discussed here, but I'm going to throw in a vote for it even if it has. While I've turned into a big Loksound nut, and can't say enough good things about this product, I've also picked up several LokPilot decoders for installation in some of my multi-unit installations and I have to say this is an amazing product as well. I'm still waiting to find a decoder that has a smoother and more configurable BEMF setup than the ESU decoders do. Compared with a Digitrax, or even the new Tsunami which is suppose to have a solid 32 Khz. motor drive circuit, the ESU decoders just seem to be smoother and quieter in every application I've used them in.

While not cheap, the LokPilot is priced comparably with a Digitrax DH 3 series decoder, and it performs so much better in real world applications that it's hard to fault. As a side note, I do use transponding on my N scale layout, so I will probably keep the Digitrax decoders for that application, but I'm tinkering with the Digitrax TD decoder (transponding only) in my larger scales to reproduce much of the functionality without using a Digitrax product for the motor and lighting control.

Jeff