Finnancial advise to newbies and experienced modellers!

[Anonymous]

Hi

I feel the need to say this although many would choose to heckel me for it!

Most people today are advised to go out and buy the most expensive things.

Generally people are advised the following:

Buy a seperate loco,power supply,track ect when you begin modell railroading.
Although this is a way of doing it, it frustrates me when i think back on what I wasted my time on.

I spent so much time trying to locate what i needed that i wish i had bought a set.

I would reccomend buying a set and slowly upgrading parts as you can afford to. I cannot put a price on the enjoyment i would have got out of a complete set rather than spending a month staring at a nice expensive power pack. I bought a standard bachmann steam engine and a really cheap life like loco and they run so beautifully and it was the cheapest loco in the shop! My dad has 15 year old locos that have came from canada and they still work!

Enjoy model railroading because it is a great hobby.

pavariangoo

[jrbernier]

I think your advice is a little bit slanted due to unavailability of individual items in the shops in you area. If all you could find was a 'power pack', then maybe a 'train set' would satify you first 'need'. The truth is that almost all 'train sets' are very low quality and are a waste of money if you are really serious about the hobby. The only HO train sets that seem to be decent from what I have seen are the Bachmann sets with Spectrum/Silver Spike cars & engines, or the Athearn sets. The Bachmann sets are at least complete with track and a small power pack. The problem with them is that the cars included are many times mis-matched(at least by era) and the power pack is very cheap and of low power.
When I was part owner of a chain of hobby shops over 20 years ago, we made up sets with an Athearn SW7, matching caboose and 3 freight cars(all assembled), n/s track & a MRC power pack. The sets were discounted 10-15%, and we knew that the trains would run beyond the day after Christmas. Competing against the $13-20 discount set was hard, and our $50 sets had a hard time competing before Christmas. The seller was after Christmas when folks brought in their discount train set engine for 'repair' and found out there were no parts available, but they could buy something from us that we had parts for. Sometimes folks have to 'burn' a $20 bill to see the light. Of course, some folks blamed the LHS for not having parts for their Tyco/Model Power/Life-Like train set(imagine a big full service hobby shop not having repair parts for my 'big name' train set I got at K Mart!).
Glad I sold out and got a 8-5 job.......

Jim Bernier

[Anonymous]

I'm glad to hear you had a positive experience with a first train set.![tup]

But I'll have to agree with Jim. If a low-quality HO train set is somebody's first impression of the hobby, and they do not have much disposable income, they are likely to permanently 'brush off' the idea of staying in the hobby and growing in it. This is the very last thing the hobby needs, given the increasing median age of modelers.

[Anonymous]

I've always thought of low cost train sets as being disposable. Use them until something need repairing and junk them. You get what you pay for.

I doubt if members of this forum would advise you to "go out and buy the most expensive things". Buy better quality, not train set junk.

Bob Boudreau

[simon1966]

I can tell you from experience that the power packs in most train sets are totally junk. What you have purchased will last you a lot longer. Part of the pleasure of this hobby is finding the right things. Hopefully you enjoyed your search. You must have been quite selective if it took a month to find the track and rolling stock that you wanted.. Enjoy..

[MisterBeasley]

All good points. Frankly, I think there is some merit in going out and buying a cheap starter train set. The average newcomer to this hobby has no idea what he/she wants. When I got back into MR-ing with a bunch of stuff that had been in the attic for 40 years, I bought a couple of magazines and Kalmbach books, and took in a couple of train shows. I spent more on "information" than I would have on a starter train set, but if I'd never had a model railroad before, I suspect that the train set would have taught me more.

These things are so cheap that you really can consider them disposable, and well worth the small investment just for the lessons learned. If you outgrow your tiny power pack before it goes up in smoke, then transport it to your workroom and set up an independent test track with it. If your locomotive breaks down, take it apart and try to fix it. You've got nothing to lose by trying, and you'll be surprised at how quickly most people can learn to repair trains once they sit down to do it. And if you hate the starter-set track, well, there's always the Christmas Tree layout for that.

[Anonymous]

I would agree - a decent quality train set is a good way to buy the essentials on a budget. However, there seem to be a lot of cheap (and frequently nasty!) sets about. Interestingly not all ranges are consistent - Bachmann offer some terrible cheap HO sets (steel track, single truck drive on the loco, etc) but also some far better ones - their UK market ones are much better with sensibly matched locos and stock, standard n/s track that matches Peco settrack, and reasonable power supplies. It's possible to pick up quality sets that are relatively cheap compared to the contents - I bought an N scale Fleischmann set with a German diesel loco and a couple of double-deck coaches (along with track and power pack) for around the cost of the loco alone, and I've also bought a couple of LGB sets (loco, 2 cars, loop of track and power pack for the same price as the loco alone). The problems come when people buy the really cheap sets and expect them to run well for a long time - witness the large number of "Christmas train" sets with underpowered locos running on plastic track that you see. Anyone buying one of these and expecting it to perform as well as the LGB set they saw in a hobby shop is likely to be disappointed!

[Roadtrp]

I disagree with many of the above comments. There ARE decent train sets out there, and they offer a substantial discount over what buying similar equipment separately would cost.

Bachmann has N scale sets available at a list price of $150 (I've seen them on the net for about $110) that offer a Spectrum locomotive that by itself lists for $135. The set also comes with a Spectrum power pack that is a definite step up from the Bachmann "train set" power packs. The Spectrum power pack is equivalent to an MRC entry level pack and is a very decent piece of equipment.

If you consider that $110 on the internet can get you a set with a Spectrum locomotive, a Spectrum power pack, six freight cars and 18 pieces of EZ track, I think you have to consider it a very good value and pretty good entry level equipment.

Those who automatically dismiss train sets are uninformed. Sure there is some junk out there. But there also is some pretty decent stuff at very good prices.

I agree with pavariangoo.

[:)]

P.S. I started out with separately purchased equipment because of comments on this board. I wish I would have started with the N scale Bachmann Spectrum set instead. I would have gotten equipment similar to what I bought at a MUCH better price. Thanks for nothing guys. [;)]

[dinwitty]

I read this it just makes me feel glad I am beyond the circle of train track.

Any beginning model hobbyist should start simple and get their feet wet, but the hobby doesnt stop there.

have fun pavariangoo, and look forward to cooler stuff sometime.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dinwitty

I read this it just makes me feel glad I am beyond the circle of train track.

Any beginning model hobbyist should start simple and get their feet wet, but the hobby doesnt stop there.

I agree that you don't want to stay with that setup for ever. But it is a great way to start at an economical price. When you first start out you really have no idea whether you are going to like the hobby or not. Why spend a fortune on equipment that you may never end up using?

I also agree that you don't want a really bad train set, because that could turn a person away from the hobby because of the problems they experience. But Spectrum equipment is very decent equipment and is certainly adequate quality for a beginner. Sure, it isn't Kato. But when you can get a complete initial setup for $110 I think you would be hard pressed to find a better value.

Of course you don't stay with that for long. Within a month of when I started I'd purchased far more track, several turnouts, half a dozen structures and scenicing materials. But I spent about $90 more than I should have on my initial setup because I bought the pieces separately.

People who've been in this hobby for awhile tend to forget that everyone has to start somewhere. And for most people that initial purchase is not going to be much more than a circle of train track anyway. Why not buy it prepackaged and save yourself some money? The money you save can be used to EXPAND that circle into something much more interesting.

[:)] [yeah]

[chateauricher]

I agree with Pavariangoo.

It is definitely very discouraging when you have a limited budget (not to mention limited choice) to spend large sums of money for Item A, which you can't use until you spend more large sums of money on Item B which is required to make Item A work.

While many train sets are not of the same quality, they are a way to get your feet wet (as Dinwitty said). It could be argued that buying a set only to toss out most of it as you slowly upgrade parts is a waste of money; but, consider the enjoyment you get from being able to get your trains running sooner. Not to mention the experience gained without putting more expensive equipment at risk. I'm quite sure most of us would buy a cheap $500 heap-of-junk car to tinker with than a $75,000 2005 Lexus SC430 convertible.

[selector]

The amateur astronomy world laments the same dilemma. There are numerous 'department store telescopes' that line the shelves at Christmas, and they sell. They advertise "600 power!" and 'equatorial mount', all for $199. Believe me, the bloom quickly falls off the 'rose' by New Years when neither child nor parent can get the space junk to show a decent image, or at least one that doesn't jiggle too much because of the poor materials and engineering.

That said, I was very much the proud owner of a piece of space junk many years ago, and I still think fondly of it from time to time. It got me started! There is no comparison with the monster that I have currently, but then, I have matured into astronomy in so many ways, as has my taste in telescopes.

One person's garbage is another's treasure.

-Crandell

[IRONROOSTER]

I started in the hobby with Tyco - everyone bashes it, but I had fun with it and it got me up and running.

Enjoy
Paul

[dave9999]

I haven't jumped in on this conversation, but I would like to add that when I first decided to get
involved seriously with model railroading, I went out and bought a Life-Like set. Big mistake!!
Pitiful loco, rollingstock that had a horn hooks connected to the truck... and flanges on the wheels
about a mile deep and that cheap Life-Like roadbed track that couldn't make a good connection if
you welded it together.(how's that for a run-on sentence?)[:D] I have not had any experience with Athearn
or Bachmann sets, so I can't comment, but Life-Like really sells their sets as nice sets. It would
be good for a young child to run around in circles, but no one serious about the hobby should consider
a set like this.

This is a motor(drive truck) from a Life-Like train set. (click to get a really "good" view)


This is a motor w/fly wheels from a Proto2000 loco.


I'm sure you can tell which is better. I'll take the latter. This motor came from a P2K FB1
that came with the matching A unit (both powered). I picked up both for about $50.

The Life-Like train set with the junk loco, junk rollingstock, junk track and a junk powerpack cost
close to a one hundred dollers.

I would hate that someone got turned off to the hobby because they bought a set like the
one I bought and thought that this is what all of the products were like.

Good luck, Dave

[Roadtrp]

Since you mentioned horn hook couplers you are obviously talking about HO. Life Like N scale product is MUCH better. Any N locomotive Life Like has manufactured in the last few years uses a split frame motor and dual flywheels. They are NOT using motors mounted on a truck like your photo shows.

I think some very unfair judgments get made because people are not familiar with what a company’s products are like in a different scale, or because they don't have CURRENT experience with that company.

I would not want a "train set" that had a locomotive with a motor mounted like you've shown. But I would NOT get that if I bought a Life Like N scale set today.

[dave9999]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

Since you mentioned horn hook couplers you are obviously talking about HO. Life Like N scale product is MUCH better. Any N locomotive Life Like has manufactured in the last few years uses a split frame motor and dual flywheels. They are NOT using motors mounted on a truck like your photo shows.

Jerry,
Yes, I am talking about HO.

When I started the present layout, I seriously considered N scale because of space limitations.
I looked at several N locos and was impressed with Life-Like's N scale products. They seemed
to hold their own with the Atlas and Athearn locos that I looked at. I only saw them run on a short
test track, but they ran pretty well.

QUOTE:
I think some very unfair judgments get made because people are not familiar with what a company’s products are like in a different scale, or because they don't have CURRENT experience with that company.

See above

QUOTE:
I would not want a "train set" that had a locomotive with a motor mounted like you've shown. But I would NOT get that if I bought a Life Like N scale set today.

True, but you WOULD if you bought an HO scale Set. The very same set that I bought is still for sale everywhere. Dave

[Virginian]

True, it is more trouble to buy stuff seperately, but I definitely think it's worth it. Otherwise I wouldn't steer people in that direction. I have no experience with the Athearn or Spectrum quality sets, but I would be willing to consider one of those. Anything else I have ever seen or heard of is/was junk. I still don't see spending money on cars, track, a power pack, and possibly even a loco, that if a person stays in and grows with the hobby they may have no good use for down the road.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999


Jerry,
Yes, I am talking about HO.

Dave,

That is all I wanted to make clear. Most beginners would never know (at least I didn't) that Life Like N scale standard product is much better than Life Like HO standard product. Since any discussion about sets is obviously targeted to beginners, I just wanted to make sure they had full information.

I certainly agree that I would not want to have the equipment that came with your set.

[:)]

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999


I would hate that someone got turned off to the hobby because they bought a set like the
one I bought and thought that this is what all of the products were like.

Back in my train set days, I thought all diesels had drives like that.
I remember seeing an Athearn U30B running on a display at The Great Train Store and thinking to myself "How is it running THAT quiet?!" Back then, I had no idea what real diesel locomotive drive systems looked like. Motor above the fuel tank. [^]

[Anonymous]

Lifelike standard SUCKS! my athreans, rivrossis, browsers,& even bachmanns
work smoother, pull more, & don't jump the track as much. Good potnter as for the
sets. I'd go with bachmann, athrean, marklinm, & walthers for HO scale, MTH, or
lionel for O, lgb, or bachmann for G, Lifelike, bachmann,& kato( yes Iv'e seen them)
for N, & marklin for Z(they just came out with a GG-1). Also lifelike freight pulls apart
& derails on long trains ( not heavy enough & don't house kaydees too well.

[Anonymous]

I think pavarangioo makes a very good point here. Buying quality from the start makes sense only if you have a very definite idea of what you like about the hobby and even a strong commitment to staying in it. My guess is that most people who advise against sets are dedicated model railroaders with a sizeable layout, and can't seem to understand that there are many who just want to try out the hobby, get a feel for what it's all about. Remember that running trains is just half the hobby, builiding layouts can be just as satisfying if not more so to some - and buying expensive locos and cars if you want to build scenery isn't necessarily motivated. The advice to buy expensive is a huge turnoff to a lot of beginners, especially younger people - if you're told that you can't get started in the hobby for less than a $1000, then you're probably going to turn away unless you're truly dedicated. And how would you know that before you even got started?

I bought a cheapo Bachmann N-scale set, and have enjoyed it for what it is - plus it's given me appreciation for the finer quality stuff I now own. If I had had to wait until I'd been able to buy a good quality loco+ cars+finescale track+good quality power pack I'd for sure have tired before I started - after spending about three times as much as I did on the set. Yes, it quickly got boring to run a single train in circles, but I knew it was just a way to get started. And since I don't have any qualms about damaging this stuff, it's been a great way to learn about kitbashing and weathering techniques that I would never have tried had all my locos been a $100 or more each.

I think the best advice to anyone who's starting out and doesn't have a lot of money would be to buy an intermediate (or even top level) set, such as the Spectrum ones, and then progress slowly to the nicer stuff once you have a clear idea of what you want witht the hobby. At worst, you'll have wasted $100 rather than five times that.

[Anonymous]

One other tip, replace the controller as soon as possible with one by MRC.

[Anonymous]

Ok

thanks for the responses

Heres my next comment!

If you go to a train show and there is a 5 year old standing there gazing at a train and he says "daddy can you buy me a train" chances are if daddy turns around and says no son you have to buy an mrc powerpack,cables,a proto loco,atlas flextrack,roadbed,subroadbed ect the kids going to stand there in confusion!

Many of you will comment by telling me how bad train sets are and how they can put somebody of the hobby. Heres what i say to that.

A: about 60% of you said they were bad but did they put you off the hobby? No of course not or you wouldnt be chatting about trains on this forum !

B:Yes if something breaks (Which it probably will) the kids parents can probably replace it for them.

C: I have a loco that i got from life like,in fact of have 2 and they are what you would call train set loco's, 1 was about au$30 -40 and it has NEVER given me trouble.

I was on an extremely low budget of $5 per hours work! and i was new and i still am but i wasted money on the wrong types of track,many of you will remember i bought a power pack with no power plug ect.

and to all tyco haters my dad has 15 year old tycos that still run so they cant be that bad!

many thanks

pavariangoo

[simon1966]

Well Pavariangoo, I am sorry your introduction to MRR has been so painful and difficult. You asked for opinions and you got them. I don't think many on the list that provided their opinons, me included, would give a different one regarding this subject. Opinons given honestly are based on experience. If it were my money and I was starting out again, I would definately not buy a set. Anyway, you have developed your own point of view, and I think that is great. This thread will give Newbies a different viewpoint that will perhaps allow them to make a better decision for themselves. At the end of the day, no one is forcing anyone to do anything, just providing their own best opinion.

[Anonymous]

It seems to be a case specific thing. Overall, I disagree with Pavariangoo but there are some nice sets to begin with. The majority of sets I've seen are junk and the good ones are not likely to be found at Walmart or Kmart. Sometimes you have to have the junk to appreciate the good stuff. I remember when I was new in the hobby, I too wondered how in the world did such and so get their engines to run so quietly and smoothly. At the time I was running junk. The number of awful sets so outweighs the number of decent sets that if you tell a newbie to go out and buy a set, its a better deal; he has a far far greater chance of buying junk for just a little less than the price of decent equipment. I tell newbies to ask me if they aren't sure. I bought the junk in the beginning and can point it out. They could benefit from my experience. Or, they could just do what I did and learn from personal experience buy buying the junk until they finally figure things out. In other words, they can learn the hard way. Neither approach is always the right approach. As a GENERAL rule, you get what you pay for. You have to use a little common sense and consider who you are buying for. It doesn't make good sense to buy the top of the line for a seven or eight year old. Many toys they are thrilled with for a few days only.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pavariangoo


If you go to a train show and there is a 5 year old standing there gazing at a train and he says "daddy can you buy me a train" chances are if daddy turns around and says no son you have to buy an mrc powerpack,cables,a proto loco,atlas flextrack,roadbed,subroadbed ect the kids going to stand there in confusion!
...

many thanks

pavariangoo

Maybe a more prudent choice for a 5 year old would be a Brio starter set.

NEMMRRC