PRICES

[Anonymous]

Is it me or is the prices of this hobby getting to high. $20 to $40 for a NJ International signal. $40 and up for one passenger car.$300 for a loco. I think that this is a turn off for the younger people growing up to do.

[Anonymous]

I was horrified to see a mining car for au$54.50 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jacon12]

I've seen this discussed several time before on different forums and some concluded that todays selection of items (compared to 25-30 years ago) and prices isn't that expensive. I'm new to the hobby so I can't relate, but as a new person some of the prices do seem to be pretty high. One thing I've noticed is the more than double the price when you add dcc and sound. A very good locomotive can be bought for around $100. Put a dcc board and a speaker in it and it's $225. I know these components are mass produced and at the factory level I'm not sure just how hard they are to install, but doubling the price seems to me a bit high.
But, I'm new..... so what do I know... :)
Jacon

[Anonymous]

Model railroading has always been an exspensive hobby.

[Anonymous]

I agree that prices are rising.There are still cheaper alternatives out there.You can buy a 10.00 dollar Athearn hopper or a top of the line Intermountain with Kadees for 30.00.The Intermountain cars are nice and highly detailed.The Athearn can be made better with the addition of some high quality wheelsets and Kadees.You can buy the old Athearn blue box engines or buy the newest Kato.They have priced me out of the high quality stuff for the moment.I can no longer justify 140.00 for a loco when I have kids to raise and a mortgage etc.If I do get one of the elite models it must be at a deep discount from now on.No more credit cards.LOLDan

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by unionpacific4018

Model railroading has always been an exspensive hobby.

This statement has been bandied about so often I guess people actually believe it. I've been in the hobby for a long time, and my father was before me. I can say without hesitation that between the 1960 and 1990 HO model railroading was not considered an expensive pursuit. Putting all the non-applicable CPI and inflation adjustment stuff aside, the hobby has never been more relatively expensive since the days immediately following WWII than it is currently. Yes, you still can buy cheaper, low-end stuff but its availability is slowly decreasing and, in general, its operating characteristics leave much to be desired, forcing most newcomers and those less talented into expending progressively greater and greater outlays of cash.

CNJ831

[Javern]

some of the Tyco stuff off Ebay is looking better and better

[Adelie]

The other consideration recently is that much of this stuff is manufactured or assembled elsewhere, and the dollar hasn't exactly been doing well overseas. This drives up everthing to one degree or another.

[IRONROOSTER]

This has been discussed frequently in the forums. Leaving aside conspiracy theories, I think there are 3 things going on that make the hobby appear to cost more than the general cost of living increases that everything gets.
1. RTR: When I started 33 years ago, there was very little RTR outside the toy market. In the last few years RTR has become a major part of the market. Even though alot of this is made in China, still it costs extra.
2. Quality: There has been a significant increase in the quality and level of detail. This costs more whether it is RTR of kits or parts. This also makes the economy lines appear less desirable.
3. Loss of the economy lines: Several low cost or economy lines have disappeared. There used to be several kit manufacturers whose kits were about double that of Athearn or less. Most of these seem to have disappeared. It appears that some of the MDC line of kits will also disappear.

I think you can still do this hobby for about the same relative cost as when I started. There just isn't as much available. I started with Atlas buildings, Atlas snap track, and Tyco trains. I didn't know the stuff wasn't any good, so I had fun with it. Later I added some MDC and Athearn cars.

Enjoy
Paul

[gvdobler]

I bought a new airplane in 1981 for $76K, now the same plane is about $360k.
I bought a new Corvette in 1975 for $8K, now they are about $50k.
I bough a new house in 1984 for $115k, a house like it is now about $400k.
I bought a new Cadillac in 1982 for $16k, now they are about $50k.

I think for the selection and the quality the prices are not too bad.

Jon - Las Vegas

[selector]

Yes, it is relatively more expensive, but I completed a layout measuring 8X11 with turntable and full scenics and DCC for under $4K Cdn. That's less than half the cost of a snowmobile, and an ATV, about the cost of a 34" LCD HDTV, and only twice as much as a 15hp lawn tractor. it's all relative. Some audio speakers go for $2000 each. Some sewing machinres retail for $3000!!

A well-engineered, sound-equipped steamer for $500 Cdn is not a show stopper unless the cost is clearly out of one's range. If so, you do without sound the same way that I do without a Bose sound system.

[davekelly]

I think we also need to recognize what else is taking chunks of our discretionary income that wasn't in the 60's or 70's. I dare say pretty much many homes have a cell phone for each person over the age of 12. Cable/satelite TV. Movie rentals. More cars per family than before. Video games (still can't believe the price of some of those). Internet service. Computer. Thus, even if relative prices didn't go up, its competing against more things for our dollars.

Just a thought.

[selector]

Very true, Dave. Vehicle servicing is more expensive, people still rent DVDs and go to movies, and they eat outside the home about four times as often. We don't want things now, we want them right #@5&ing now! Five minutes ago would have been nice.

The other thing is, leaving inflation aside, labour costs have risen everywhere. I do not believe that model trains are mass produced. A few of their components may be, but they're sure as heck not put together by robots.

[Cox 47]

If you are retired or disabled and living on a fixed income prices are to high and disposable income is a dream, but we still enjoy the hobby. Cox 47

[selector]

Amen, to that, cox 47. Everyone has to live within his/her means.

That brings an idea to mind; could we have a thread that deals strictly with stuff that individuals wi***o donate to others who might be glad to have it? Has it been tried before? I'm too new here to know better.

[Anonymous]

Looking back on the old AHM engines costing 100-200 in 1960 is no different than say... the Riverossi 2-6-6-6 Allegheny that people insist on paying 400- for without Sound or DCC.

The Alley is now out of production as Riverossi is gone. The older AHM engines still command prices of 100- in mint condition. Consider that wages in 1960 is a heck of alot better than what they are now.

Compared to that the new QSI Life Like 2-8-8-2 is a down right bargin at 330-

I find ebay easy to discard unwanted items to raise the funds for purchases.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Looking back on the old AHM engines costing 100-200 in 1960 is no different than say.

The older AHM engines still command prices of 100- in mint condition. Consider that wages in 1960 is a heck of alot better than what they are now.

You're saying AHM engines were sold new in the 1960's for $100-200? Where does this info come from? Memory or ? Just curious. I cannot access my older issues of MR from the late 1960's right now to check for myself. I do think this is probably an exaggeration but I could be wrong.

And who is paying $100.00 for mint older AHM engines? Collectors? I cannot imagine anyone wanting one of them to operate with their overly large "pizza cutter" flanges. Our modular club had been operating for over 20 years now and I remember some members bringing some of these older ones when we first started, and the flanges were running on the ties in some places.

The original poster mentioned paying $300.00 for one loco. Just where does it say that you need one this expensive anyway? There are many fine locos out there for a lot less. It's sort of saying that you need to spend $60,000 for a top end Cadillac if you want a car. Some people can afford one, the rest of us drive Fords, Chevys and Chryslers.

Bob Boudreau

[Paul3]

Cox 47 wrote:

QUOTE: If you are retired or disabled and living on a fixed income prices are to high and disposable income is a dream, but we still enjoy the hobby.

I always think of a member of my club (now deceased) when I hear the above. He complained about the dues in our club (at the time, $24 a month), and he always argued against raising dues even so much as a $1 per month because he was retired and on a fixed income and how it wasn't fair and on and on.

Then, he would show up with a $1,200 brass steam engine that he just bought, and the month after that, 3 new Overland cabooses, then the $1,500 trainset... After a while, it just got to be a running gag... [:)]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[MidlandPacific]

Because this is a question that interests and concerns me (I've been pointing out to my wife that I gave up all those expensive hobbies like scuba diving: what will she say if it turns out to be true?), I went to the U.S. Department of Labor and took a look at their consumer price index (http://www.bls.gov/cpi/#overview).

The DOL says that the basic CPI for FEB 05 is 574.5, meaning that prices for the whole basket of urban consumer goods (I don't know how they determined this, but it works for me) are 5.74 times what they were in 1967. Relative to the 1982-4 time period, they're about 1.9 times higher (or almost double). So if we take the economist's simplification and assume that all goods are the same and that they are all affected in the same way, the product that cost you $100 in 1967 will cost $574.5 nowadays. I haven't yet found a simple breakdown of the difference between 1967 wages and 2005 wages, probably because of the difficulty involved in quantifying some of the benefits now provided (comparing the price of a steak in 1967 and 2005 is easy, but the various changes in levels of compensation are hard to quantify sometimes).

So if (and for the sake of argument I'll accept the assertion that a Mallet went for $100 back then) you paid $100 for an AHM Y-6B in 1967, the price for the same model today would in theory be $574.50. That being said, however, these indices don't take things like the improvements BLI, Life-Like, and Bachmann introduced into the market into account. Walthers lists the Rivarossi HO scale Y-6B (an improved version of the old AHM engine) at $319.98, while the Broadway Limited 2-6-6-4 with sound and DCC lists for $499 (it's on sale for $429, but the Cab-Forward is retailing for $499, which makes this a decent approximate price). It would therefore appear that the retailers are offering you more locomotive at less cost than they did thirty-eight years ago.

One big assumption governs this verdict, though, and that's the assumption that the rise in wages is strictly comparable to the rise in prices. I tend to think that wages have moved slightly ahead of prices, but my evidence for this belief is anecdotal, rather than statistical. If wages have fallen behind prices (possible, but not, I think, in fact the case), then the situation is reversed, and the gain in buying power may be smaller or nonexistent. But I don't think that's the case.

[Anonymous]

Fundy Northern,

I offer you two links to current ebay auctions. I will have to go back and check my 60's issues as I was quoting from memory.

$199.00 ebay (One of the highest asking prices in this catagory)
AHM 2-8-8-2
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19129&item=5966555033&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

$365.00 Current price on this 2-6-6-6 auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19129&item=5966547593&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I still say the recent offerings by Life Like, BLI and others with DCC and sound a bargin.

[Anonymous]

I think our expectations compounded with inflation has caused some of this. Athearn blue box engines and kits have risen in proportion to inflation. However, many people expect Kato or Genesis detailing and graphics. What was acceptable in the 70's is not today.

[cwclark]

the price of this hobby has always been high....I remember purchasing an Athearn SW1500 in 80' for $15.00 and i thought that was outrageous..now what are they?..$35.00 for the same thing? but you have to think of it this way..it's something that's fun and the price for fun is steep...just like a kit building ..it may be a bit high but when you have to take a couple of weeks to build it and weather it , light it, install it and scenic it, then it's not that bad if you look at what it's costing you on a daily basis....Chuck

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SILVERCHAMPION

Is it me or is the prices of this hobby getting to high. $20 to $40 for a NJ International signal. $40 and up for one passenger car.$300 for a loco. I think that this is a turn off for the younger people growing up to do.

The prices seem high, but I purchased many of my new cars loaded with equipment for less than three thousand dollars when I paid from $64 to $99 dollars for my first PFM engines. The last time I checked, last month by the way, most new cars are 25 thousand to 55 K for better ones and the Overland and other major brass models have increased at least 10 times and more, just like trucks, cars, and homes.

I would hope all of our wages have also increased about the same over the same time. At least my spendable amount has increased about ten times.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: I offer you two links to current ebay auctions. I will have to go back and check my 60's issues as I was quoting from memory.

$199.00 ebay (One of the highest asking prices in this catagory)
AHM 2-8-8-2

$365.00 Current price on this 2-6-6-6 auction

I still say the recent offerings by Life Like, BLI and others with DCC and sound a bargin.

Important note: that AHM 2-8-8-2 is in an ebay store; there won't be an auction. If there was one, it would probably sell for a heck of a lot less than the asking price. I'm prepared to bet it won't move at all at the price it's at now.

That Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 is pretty much state of the art - and its price is still a LOT lower than the $574 that simple inflation would lead you to expect. Which may explain why there have been 29 bids for it!

I don't know whether the quoted sum of $100 for that AHM model is right or not, but if it is, it's worth noting that even an increase in price from $100 to $199 would represent a real decrease in value, given the greater increase in price. Brass models don't usually do this (their prices increase, allowing them to retain a relative value close to their original purchase value). Die cast models, however, do not - or have not done so in the past, at any rate. They may do so in the future, but it's hard to imagine, since a lot of the value of brass is based on the perception that it's rare, and that short production lines equate to limited supplies. This is not, and never will be, the case for die cast models: they're expressly designed to be cheap and affordable.

[Bikerdad]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12
One thing I've noticed is the more than double the price when you add dcc and sound. A very good locomotive can be bought for around $100. Put a dcc board and a speaker in it and it's $225. I know these components are mass produced and at the factory level I'm not sure just how hard they are to install, but doubling the price seems to me a bit high.
But, I'm new..... so what do I know... :)
Jacon

One problem we have when assessing the cost of the electronics going into our hobby is we compare their cost against general mass market consumer electronics. That's not a good comparison. Sony will sell more of its new Playstation thingamabobbie in the next month than the sum total of all the decoders, DCC systems, and soundsystems sold in all of model railroading over the next year, maybe even 5 years. While Sony will have an advantage in scale on the production side, the real advantage is with the Research and Development. Sony amortizes the development cost of the new PS across tens of millions of units, as opposed to tens (hopefully) of thousands of units for a sound equipped loc. As a result, our costs seem much higher. Now, the good news is that the costs of sound & DCC above and beyond the basic loco will probably stay level or slowly drop, as the base development costs of the technologies (vs. installation into Loco X) are amortized across more and more units, along with faster development times that come with experience. This flatlining is more of a factor with HO, where sound is a more mature technology than it is with N.

There are plenty of more expensive, and some less expensive, and some comparably expensive hobbies out there. Try raising horses for a hobby...

[davekelly]

Or riding bikes bikerdad?

Got a 2000 FXST, what do you ride?

[Anonymous]

One of the things that worry me is people may expect that 1960's engine to perform like a Life Like Heritage or Kato of today. I have a feeling that there is too much "greed" in the asking prices of these AHM engines on Ebay. A general search reveals a wide range of prices. The one I linked to probably will never move at that price.

I might pay 50- for it. Deep down I suspect the sellers are trying to unload the older equiptment so that they will have the ca***o purchase a newer unit possibly with Sound and DCC installed.

I recall long ago when Athearn boxcars are $2.50 a unit. We had lots of fun shopping for these and building them at home.

Now they cost anywhere from 6.00 all the way up to the RTR prices and it is not so fun to buy a armful of them. I own about 60 Athearn. They have metal wheels and kaydee couplers which is no small expense. But they will perform very well on the track and that what makes it all worth it.

I hear someone talked about cars. Here is my two cents.

My first car was a 72' Ford Maverick with the 302 V8 and air conditioning. The person maintained it very very very very perfect as possible the entire ownership. The paperwork was very complete down to the orginal invoice which had a retail price of exactly $3200 as equippted. If I know the things I do now, I would have put the money into the car to upgrade it instead of trading it for a new one. Life is like that sometimes.

Today's cars will run you at least 18,000 all the way up. Performance will cost extra. Much extra. I saw a used car lot that had a Cadillac STS 4 door for 11,000 here in arkansas. The list on these things are almost 50,000. Either there is something major wrong with the car or the guy just cannot sell it in the local population who may not afford it.

Dont get me started on houses. I am now over the hill on my home with less than 20K to go and see people struggling under 200,000 mortages elsewhere for a similar home.

[davekelly]

Highiron,

My first car was a 73 Mercury Comet (same as Maverick) with a 302 and 3 speed manual. Like you I wish I still had it!! Way cool cars, weren't they? And a cinch to work on.

[Anonymous]

I have a set of Rivarossi passenger cars (no interiors) bought in Chicago Loop Woolworths in January 1967 for 2.99 each on sale from 4.99. I recently bought several 4 car sets of Rivarossi (with interiors) from Trainworld for 30.00/4 car set or 7.50 each. If the consumer price factor between 1967 and 2005 is right, the 1967 adjusted car price would be like 18.00 now and the 2005 car price adjusted to 1967 price would be a little over a dollar each. I know this is an extreme example. It is kind of funny as I also had an AHM C-liner bought in 67 for $5 which would be like $30 adjusted to 2005. I remember someone who had 20 of those c-liners back then because it was such a deal then(?). I thought of this a few weeks ago when I got the P2k c-liners from TW for $15 each. That would be like $2 each adjusted. I could have got a whole fleet and it would be a lot nicer than those old AHMs.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: It is kind of funny as I also had an AHM C-liner bought in 67 for $5 which would be like $30 adjusted to 2005. I remember someone who had 20 of those c-liners back then because it was such a deal then(?). I thought of this a few weeks ago when I got the P2k c-liners from TW for $15 each. That would be like $2 each adjusted. I could have got a whole fleet and it would be a lot nicer than those old AHMs.

Here's hoping we all live long enough to hear a child say, "you mean that old BLI steam engine cost only two hundred dollars? Nowadays it would be eight hundred, but you would get a customized radio control unit with the ability to simulate braking action throughout the train, rollback when starting on grades, and the ability to operate in multiples straight out of the box without any programming, AND realistic nonpolluting smoke that turns black in synchronization with the sound of firebox doors opening, plus steam emission from all of the key valves......."