WHAT IS GOING ON WITH AMTRAK?

[Anonymous]

As my yelling previously stated, what is going on with amtrak, I am totaly confused with wether its coming or going, stoping or starting, please clarify this for me.

[jwr_1986]

No one knows yet. Bush currently has it in a spot where he can keep it or kill it. Too bad.

Jesse

[Anonymous]

Amtrak needs to sale its Northeast Corridor, its the only go line that they have

[twhite]

The question is not what's going on with AMTRAK as much as it is what' s going on (or not) in the heads of The Powers That Be back in Washington. Once THEY figure out whether they're coming or going (or permanently stopped) then AMTRAK can let the rest of us know. Until then----can you say "Ida no?" (say it fast about three times.)
Tom [xx(]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

The question is not what's going on with AMTRAK as much as it is what' s going on (or not) in the heads of The Powers That Be back in Washington. Once THEY figure out whether they're coming or going (or permanently stopped) then AMTRAK can let the rest of us know. Until then----can you say "Ida no?" (say it fast about three times.)
Tom [xx(]

I think we're all in trouble, because those heads appear to be EMPTY.

[Anonymous]

Darn government subsidies grants.... I think we may see the privitisation of the passenger rail service again.... wich could mean alot of UP on the west coast or BNSF out here as well.... I don't have a problem with that as long as no one particular rail line has to much of the service nation wide.

[AntonioFP45]

Sigh!

O.K guys this is it basically, but I'm leaving a lot out as there is a lot more:

Inspite of the fact that Amtrak is growing in popularity many of the "powers that be" have been demanding for years that Amtrak make a profit. Yes, ridiculous, but unforunately that was one of the objectives that Amtrak was supposed to meet way back in the 70s. The cry from the "Anti-Amtrak senators, like John McCain, has been that Amtrak has received 30 Billion in subsidies from day one (1971) to now. It's strange though since this is the amount of money that the Federal Aviation Administration consumed in just a 2 year period! Regardless, President Bush entered a "Zero" budget for Amtrak, for 2006. He claimed that it is to force the reform. I respect him, but disagree with him 100%.

He's dumping Amtrak support from the federal level. I'm angry that millions of dollars are being used to rebuild Iraq's railroad, though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, our leaders can manipulate facts and figures. President Bush and Norm Mineta want to break Amtrak up and contract the routes out. They defend their actions by saying Amtrak is an unfair monopoly. Amtrak would still be in charge of liability insurance and certain aspects of operations and dealing with the separate private companies that would run the trains.

Additionally, the government will shift the burden over to the states and will provide grants for improving tracks and stations. The Northeast Corridor would be run as a separate entity. Translation, this likely means the end of most of our long distance trains as the only one that comes close to making a profit is the Auto Train. No passenger rail system in the world, including the bullet trains makes a profit. The governments of France, Italy, Japan view passenger trains as an important part of the transportation infrastructure.

Mineta claims that they don't wi***o "kill" passenger service but reform it. He's been touring the country and giving speeches. He's been met by picketing protesters at nearly every stop.

My personal take: If the vast majority of Americans want long distance trains, are willing to use them, and in fact want the service expanded, then I don't mind if my tax dollars support it! I've used Amtrak, and will use again.

The fights not over yet, Amtrak has come this close before and at the last minute it received a reprieve.

The best thing you all can do is contact your congressman or congresswoman by e-mail, phone, or letter and let them know your stand and voting record. Has worked in the past and may work again!

Peace!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brclem

Darn government subsidies grants.... I think we may see the privitisation of the passenger rail service again.... wich could mean alot of UP on the west coast or BNSF out here as well.... I don't have a problem with that as long as no one particular rail line has to much of the service nation wide.

You will NEVER see "privitisation" of long-distance passenger service - NONE of the major roads want it - that is why AMTRAK was formed in the first place!

When AMTRAK is gone, you will have some non-railroad company trying to run the NE commuter rails, perhaps some other company running some Calif rail (the state sure can't afford it!), and NO cross-country passenger rail.

All of this supports the airline companies, which have given a lot of political donations to see it come about - they THINK that they will see more airline passengers ... but not ME !!!

The loss of passenger rail will also have a negative impact on the MRR hobby, IMHO. If you don't ride trains, you might not ever be interested in modeling trains. I know that an AMTRAK trip spurred my entry into the hobby.

[AntonioFP45]

Gbailey,

It's not just a negative impact on model trains, it is an overall impact on us, though the claim by most of Amtrak's critics is that only 1% of U.S travelers use long distance trains. How ironic that now long distance trains have been seeing a slow but steady increase in customers.

To top it off, Amtrak has had the best CEO at the helm since 1971. David Gunn is the man who helped turn around the New York City transit authority, which had the filthiest, graffitti laden subways in the U.S. He ignored the bleeding heart city officials that wanted to make graffitti on subways "o.k", and spear headed efforts to clean up the trains, stations, and the overall system. His tenacity paid off.[8D][tup]

I refuse to believe that a well educated man like Norm Mineta is as stupid as he sounds [X-)]. His speeches about long distance trains being turned over to private operators is, IMHO, "Nod your head-double talk." [D)]Except for the Auto Train, what operator would want to take over an operation that's slated to lose money? MIneta surely knows that cross country trains, even when running full, don't make a profit. His real emphasis is that states should develop local high speed "corridors" between key cities.

The argument from many Amtrak supporters is that cross country trains are a vaible alternative to our horribly congested highways. (please don't tell me to use Greyhound!). My last flight from Texas to Florida was a turbulent, rough ride on a Southwest 737. Being a 6 foot tall, 240 pounder those seats were to me for grade school kids! My Amtrak trip from Florida to New York, on the other hand was quite comfortable.

So again guys, you can make a difference by contacting your congressional representatives, your state governors and mayors.

Peace!

[MidlandPacific]

Have passenger trains ever been that profitable? James J Hill once said they were like the male teat, "neither useful nor ornamental," and that was before the automobile. If the ICC hadn't mandated it, I think passenger service would have disappeared long before Amtrak came along: mail contracts were effectively subsidies in a lot of places.

The best thing you can do for Amtrak right now is to go out and ride it. I've had good experiences, frankly: took the Capitol Limited and Empire Builder out to Glacier National Park for a vacation a few years ago and enjoyed every bit of it. We got a sleeping compartment and were treated very hospitably in both Chicago and DC: a lounge in both places with free food and drinks, and the coaches were far, far more comfortable than even first class airline seats. When you consider that your fare from Washington to Glacier includes the food and hotel rooms that two days would otherwise consume, it's a great deal, and they even provide tour guides in the club car west of Minneapolis.

And for you GN fans out there, all of Glacier's facilities were built by the railroad, and almost every building has a little display showcasing the railroad's history and contributions. And they make a ten minute stop in Havre, Montana, so you can stretch your legs and get a good look at an old GN 4-8-4.

[AntonioFP45]

I'd love to ride the Sunset Limited from Florida to New Orleans. Not during the Mardi Gras period, of course. Would be nice to explore the birth place of jazz, ride the trolley, and check out the history. To me, the train adds so much more flavor to a vacation!

[IRONROOSTER]

This is a political football - it gets kicked all over the field. So far in the end some money is forth coming. Eventually it'll be dropped. Why this form of passenger transportation has to pay it's way when none of the others does is politics. Personally, I prefer the train and last year took a trip to Florida and one to Maine on Amtrak. I don't know if it made money or not, but there were a lot of people riding it.
Enjoy
Paul

[Jetrock]

Passengers have never been profitable--carrying mail, however, was very profitable, and the era when the US Postal Service stopped running Railway Post Office cars also spelled the end of private passenger trains. Personally I think Amtrak made a big mistake when they decided to stop carrying mail last year, for just that reason--it helped subsidize the operation.

For some reason the American government thinks passenger rail has to make an unsubsidized profit, when it never did before in American history and does not do so anywhere else in the world. It is also amazing that somehow the subsidies given to air and road travel don't count (remember those federal highways--we wouldn't have interstate trucking if not for those tax-dollar supported roads!)

[Anonymous]

So is AMTRAK going bankrupt? I'm sorry, I haven't heard the news yet!

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Passengers have never been profitable

It's probably a density problem: pack 'em in as tightly as cattle, and charge 'em the same price, and you could get enough to make ends meet! It's what United does, after all......

[timthechef]

This is just another thing that George and his big doller Republican friends want to cut. We need more alternatives to driving ourselves everywhere, wasting all that gas and sending our money to Saudi Arabia only to end up in the hands of terrorists. We all would like to see Amtrak make a profit and support itself, but in the meantime let's help it all we can. It's a worth while institution. Call your representative and next time let's vote for some one who lies to us less!

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: So is AMTRAK going bankrupt? I'm sorry, I haven't heard the news yet!

AMTRAK isn't going bankrupt, George Bush wants to cut funding for it.

AMTRAK is a government-funded program, like it or not. If a government-funded program gets its funding cut, it does not "go bankrupt," so saying AMTRAK is "going bankrupt" is like saying that HUD is "going bankrupt."

I know, I know, technically AMTRAK is supposed to be a semi-private company, but it is, in effect, a government-subsidized passenger rail network, and one that is woefully underfunded compared to just about every other country that has a rail network.

It's ASININE. COMMUNIST CHINA has 400 KMPH MAGLEV TRAINS. Why don't we? Because we (the American government, which is technically "we", as in "we the people") won't fund passenger rail!

[AntonioFP45]

Jetrock,

So well put and realistic!

I support our dedicated troops 100% but I just want to know why we have to finance rebuilding Iraq's railroad!!

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: I support our dedicated troops 100% but I just want to know why we have to finance rebuilding Iraq's railroad!!

Because railroading is an integral means of transportation in any country, and because we took on the responsibility for fixing the stuff that we blew up. Why we can't fix our own problems without looking for other countries' systems to blow up and repair on our dime is beyond me...

[brothaslide]

QUOTE:
I think we're all in trouble, because those heads appear to be EMPTY.

Empty or not - It's just not a priority for our leaders. It's funny, now that the minute men are patrolling the boarder in AZ, the illegal immigration problem is now becoming a priority. The government will move when people act.

[BRJN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

because we took on the responsibility for fixing the stuff that we blew up.

Actually, we are fixing the stuff that Saddam let fall apart. But enough of that.

In the book Main Lines, author Saunders gives some analysis and suggestions for modern passenger rail travel. With an important exception, I agree with his analysis. (And I'll make you check out the book from your library to see what he says.)

My big gripe with Amtrack: They decided to detour around the two biggest cities in northern Indiana and set their Chicago-Buffalo route along a lot of farmland. I thought successful passenger service went where the passengers are to be found: Ft Wayne and South Bend.

My other gripe - and this may have been unavoidable - is they try to run a hollow box for a route map; there is no way to go north or south from the middle of the country unless you take a detour hundreds of miles to east or west first. They ought to run hub-and-spoke-and-rim routes.

[AntonioFP45]

BRJN,

Amtrak, indeed, has tried. There have been articles in the past discussing these plans. The problem: Amtrak almost always runs into a brick wall by either:

(1) No federal funding assistance for the new route from the govt. There are a few exceptions, such as California and MIchigan but these states foot a large portion of the bill for the additional services. Many states today are in "financial crunch" status so support for new Amtrak routes from states would be hard to come by.

(2) Resistence from the freight railroad(s) that owns the tracks of the proposed route. Though Amtrak pays the railroads for running on their tracks, the Class 1 railroads would prefer not to have Amtrak at all as it interferes with freight dispatching and increases liability. Remember? Everytime Amtrak has an accident, whether its at fault or not, the freight railroad is sued anyway.

(3) The shortage of equipment in the past decade.
During the early 1980s, Amtrak had plenty of good equipment. Superliners were new, Amfleet II cars were just a few years old, the Heritage Cars were being rebuilt at the Beech Grove facility and well muscled F40PHs were still "fresh". 1980-84 seemed to have been Amtrak's best years, equipment wise. Those Superliners and Amfleet cars are old now, dozens of cars have been retired and even the newer, "Viewliner" cars are looking "punished".

Of course, Uncle Sam figures that Amtrak should make do with the subsidy that it gets.

We can send billions around the world, but we can't give Amtrak enough money to "completely repair", rebuild, or replace worn equipment. Even a complete rebuilding of the Amfleet cars and older Superliners would be preferable than allowing deteriorating equipment to continue to run.


Just like you, many of us here in Florida see a "tremendous potential" for a Florida to Chicago service "THRU" Atlanta. Has excellent potential, but unlikely to materialize with the current attitudes in Washington.

[UPJohn]

If amtrak does go who do ya think'll run passenger service on the east coast???????

[AntonioFP45]

UPJohn,

The plans are for the Northeast Corridor route to be continued to be operated as "a separate entity". Possibly by Amtrak or a new bueracracy.

The way this administration has this whole thing hooked, if the reform does go through, we can kiss most long distance trains good-bye, while additional funding for the Northeast Corridor will "materialize". States that want long distance trains will receive funds for some improvements while "private companies" will bid to run passenger trains.

As in England, privitization often results in inferior service since with long distance service there is basically no profit.

Hopefully the current Transportation Secretary will be retired when President Bush leaves office.

[siberianmo]

I've never read an Amtrak thread yet where the subject can evoke such emotional outpourings.

Whether Amtrak lives or dies, one thing is for sure - this is like Republicans and Democrats - never really get the answers, but oh so much debate. Everyone has firm opinions - and the solutions sound great, but somehow when the day is done - we're still in the same fix. I always wonder how effective we could be - all of us - if we let our elected representatives "feel" the anxt that gets expressed on these threads .......

By the way, I'll bet you would have gotten even more responses by posting this on a diferent forum - Trains - Railroads, for example rather than Model Railroads.

See ya![tup]

[Bergie]

To siberianmo's point, the Trains magazine portion of our forum is a better place for this discussion.

Thanks,
Erik