Growing the hobby pt 1 MRR mag

[TurboOne]

I have been looking through the last 3 months I have bought since I returned to the hobby.

I am thinking that have a repeating beginnners section once every three or four months would be good, and having an intro series for brand new beginners would be great.

Turtle creek looks good but still might scare the new people away.

I am thinking something like ez track, entry level DCC like bachmann or atlas, put up your 4 x 8 on sawhorses or simple folding legs, and simple dummy level scenery and add RTR trains and buildings.

Show people you can have a simple layout in a few hours, not years. A train set, a few buildings, and away you go.

We could really grow the hobby quickly, then slowly let them move up in quality and time.

What do you think we could do to add more folks to the hobby????

Tim

[selector]

Not at all wanting to be contrary, Tim, but just thinking the way I do at times, why do we want more people in the hobby? What purpose would there be in getting even more people involved than there already are?

It seems to me that those who develop an interest will go to the lengths that their interest dictates to get what they want out of the hobby. As their interest changes, so will their efforts to learn and do more (or less).

I feel that the hobby is well served by the current crop of dedicated hobbyists, especially those of us who are online, as much as some are, to share information and encourage others to get their feet wet. The Magazine is doing a good job, and I think so because i watched and read what they produce about the TCRR, and quickly felt that I could do, and wanted, more right from the start. So, I learned from what they provided, and did otherwise.

I would expect that a broad range of commitment and interest in the general public would find what they need in what is currently available.

Just my opinion.

[SpaceMouse]

Why grow the hobby? Better prices. More money for R&D. More road names. More information resources. The list could go on and on.

[selector]

I don't think you understand economics, Mouse. Just because more people buy something doesn't necessarily mean that prices will come down. Maybe as a general rule, but the world is saturated with competing ideas and processes. Due to this satruation, a limited number of people in the population at large means that we will never have the numbers in this hobby to get the benefit you describe. For example. look at the money generated by the pet, DVD, X-Box and Nintendo, and ATV markets. If there are only so many $ to go around, how would you get more of them into a hobby and away from what they currently enjoy? Wouldn't the other manufacturers respond?

To get back to my original point, though, if more poeple clamour for less of a product, it would raise, not drop, the price. You would also find that all sorts of fly-by-night train manufacturers would pop up looking for a quick buck, and they'd get it. Why? Because just as in any field, there would be no shortage of those who would feel they are getting something more than they pay for by buying the 'deals'.

[gvdobler]

Yikes.

Mouse you are right completely. The rest is jibberish. Attracting new people to a hobby is the best way for it to survive.

Its not so much the price coming down as in increase in availability of product. The DCC and any more advances would dry up if the hobby does not expand.

Jon - Las Vegas

[Anonymous]

I guess I don't understand economics either, selector. This is the first time I've ever heard that a smaller customer base is preferable. If I could be sure of more people buying my product, I could produce more at one time and that would bring prices down. If more people clamoured for my product I would increase production. Maybe that's just my naive understanding of the marketplace.

Well, if we don't grow the hobby, I hope everyone stays healthy. I'd hate to see my customer base die off before I do.

Wayne

[selector]

I don't see it, fellows. The auto industry has more people buying from more manufacturers than ever before, and auto prices are as high as they have ever been.

I can understand Mouse's point about more R&D, more diversity in road names, and so on, but I think the market would have to grow many times more than it is now..an unlikely achievement given the competition for a finite base of discretionary spending dollars.

I feel that if the hobby got so large that it became as popular as the auto industry, we would not see the advantages that we imagined. Diversity, maybe, but would it be an improvement? Not sure about that.

[selector]

Oooppps!. I owe Mouse and apology!! I didn't complete my first sentence in my response to his posting. I had meant to state, "I don't think you understand economics THE WAY I DO, Mouse."

I apologize for not proofreading it first. It sounds offensive, and was not meant to be.[:I]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Oooppps!. I owe Mouse and apology!! I didn't complete my first sentence in my response to his posting. I had meant to state, "I don't think you understand economics THE WAY I DO, Mouse."

I apologize for not proofreading it first. It sounds offensive, and was not meant to be.[:I]

No offense taken.

Hey what do I know. I've only run businesses. I've never had to worry about the theoretical stuff.

[jrbernier]

We have more models available, more roadnames too. Look at the hobby 20 years ago - And I thought I had it made back then. True, the prices are higher, but so is the quality. Any most inflation indexes will prove that we have more buying power now.
The big problem is that the average age of the modeler is going up - not a good trend. It may mean that the average modeler(being older) has more money to spend, but he/she has less time to spend it in as well! There are so many other hobbies/recreations that compete for our $$'s. Living in Minnesota, one might think I have lots of time on those cold winter nights to work on the layout. Of course there are snowmobiles/ice fishing in the winter, and fishing /hunting/boating in the summer to compete for my time. Even retired, there is not enough time!

Jim Bernier

[cefinkjr]

selector:

Is it realistic to compare model railroading and the auto industry? Most purchasers of model railroading supplies, equipment, etc. would readily agree that their spending falls in the discretionary spending category. On the other hand, most purchasers of automobiles would probably insist that their favorite wheels are a necessity. (I personally question that a new car every other year or a pickup truck with a factory-new bed are necessities but that's just my jaded opinion.)

I agree that product selection will increase with the number of potential customers. Do you want to invest in producing a new model of the AB&C RR's only engine when only a few people have ever heard of the AB&C?

Prices should also decrease as the number of customers increases but not until there is a really huge increase in the number of potential customers; enough demand to justify increased investment in production capacity. But broader product selection will also dampen the effect on prices of an increase in potential customers.

[2c]
Chuck

[orsonroy]

Ignore the auto industry analogy, and find a better one within the realm of disposable leisure income spending.

Take compact discs for example. When they were released in 1980, a five track album cost $10-$15, and a CD player cost $400 (and it only played one disc at a time, so long as it was no more than 12 tracks long!) Once the classical music people showed interest in the technology, they started pumping money into it. More money and a larger market meant that manufacturers could start bringin out a better product for either the same price, a smaller price, or at a smaller price point. Now, I can get an album for $12-$20, a 100 disc changer with Dolby sound for $150, and blank discs for a dime apiece.

Growing a "hobby" like CD sure seemed to work in favor for everyone...

[bikerraypa]

maybe I'm naive, but aside from any economic benefits that might occur, I like the idea of growing the hobby just because it is a wonderful hobby in which to become involved. My entire (ever-shrinking) circle of friends is comprised of people I've met through a hobby, be it trains or guns or motorcycles. The more the hobby grows, the more great people you'll meet.

Grow the hobby because it's fun. Screw the rest.

Ray out.

[dehusman]

Back to the original question.

I don't think that the magazine's readers would like a repeating feature every 3-4 months on building a beginner layout. Once a year is probably enough. Rather than going down in complexity, I would rather they spent more time on articles on prototype operations and "better" layouts. EZ track is pretty much as simple as it gets. It shouldn't take more than a couple paragraphs to describe it. Their space is better to spent on more column inches of layouts that inspire people to go beyond the limitations of EZ track and into more prototypical track design and operations.

Dave H.

[IRONROOSTER]

For beginners there is a lot of information available on this web site (under the ABCs of model railroading), the NMRA web site, and others. Model Railroader also has 3 books aimed at beginners and 4 more coming. Other books are also available. I think the info is there. Putting it in the magazine means that all the information is not available when some one starts the hobby. Also, if there is too much of the same info repeated every few issues, then people drop their subs after their beginner stage.

I also think that having lots of people in the hobby helps. While some people keep buying at a furious pace, I suspect that most people eventually slow down on their purchases. I know I have now that I have more cars than I can use at once. I don't know that more hobbyists will lead to lower prices, but it will keep the current manufacturers going and lead to more products being produced. It will also encourage and support more hobby shops.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

The Worlds Greatest Hobby (WGH) promotion has a great 1 hour video on making your first layout. It is very complete, starting from making the table all the way through to finishing the scenery. Seems to me that a video like this would be great for all newbies entering the hobby and who want some direction.

The main problem I see is the video is not commercially available, it is only sent to WGH Ambassadors (I'm one). Perhaps if it were made available for a nominal price it might be a help.

As to laying EZ track, when I bought my Bachmann On30 train set it came with a short video on setting up the track and set. Another video that might be helpful for those who cannot figure out how to snap a few pieces of track together.

Bob Boudreau

[CNJ831]

While I'm sure we'd all like to see the hobby expand dramatically, this is honestly an unrealistic outlook regardless of what steps might be purposed. Judging by the demongraphics of those already in the hobby, we are most likely to be drawing the majority of further hobbyists from an already dwindling pool of early Baby Boomers, rather than any younger generation. This results in a very limited potential for expansion no matter how hard one tries.

By just about any indicator one might consult, the number of model railroaders peaked about a dozen years ago and has been in decline every since. Model Railroader magazine has already attempted to appeal to and entice newcomers through many of its ongoing hobby basics articles and one or two simple 4x8 project layouts annually. The WGH's travelling show has also been in response to the recognized declining interest in the hobby. Nevertheless, to date these attempts to stem the flow have shown no demonstrable indications that suggest that the hobby is other than still shrinking.

To continuously repeat or expand on the amount very basic beginner's articles in MR's already dwindling pages of content would only result in a further loss of readership (they've lost upwards of 50,000 readers over the past 10 years) for them among the more experienced hobbyists. Better to stick with pushing the retail sales of existing introductory books on model railroading than to alter the current content of MR.

CNJ831

[selector]

I wi***here was a mathematician lurking who could do a better job of explaining my point. I'll try this: from a statsticial point fo view, there is a critical population density beyond which improvement in any given endeavour will be won only by massive infusions of dollars, thus keeping the costs high. We already have hundreds of thousands of MR fans who keep the development $ applied to sound, scenics, appliances, and obscure lines. We have a large holding of kitbashers who enjoy building items that the development $ don't yield.

I don't know how else to make my case, other than to say that we are dong just fine with the numbers and ideas that we have now.

More is not better.

[Anonymous]

I think that more good and basic PR will help. I know this too can get expensive, but like in anything else, you want to sell something or get people involve in some organization then advertise it. Bottom line is PR. [2c]

Thanks a bunch for this opportunity to share my views.

Happy MRRing

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector



I feel that the hobby is well served by the current crop of dedicated hobbyists, especially those of us who are online, as much as some are, to share information....

So what happens when the "current crop" fades away? [:D]

Bob Smith
"runnin 'round the rug"

Delaware Valley & Piedmont RR.

[Anonymous]

I think one way to start getting people involved in MRRing again is to start having TV commercials for sets and the like again.... just like with any other toy out there why not have stuff for MRRing.... I remember back in the 80's there were a couple commercials but not many.... and now Toys 'R' Us doesn't even carry any bachmann stuff anymore.... maybe if there were commercials that would get kids back into the hobby.

[selector]

csx, the current crop regenerates, just like in our gardens. The changes we look for come from all demographic (ie, market) changes, not merely from the NUMBERS of people who do a given thing. Again, with so many thousands extant in our hobby, even doubling the numbers won't see substantial changes in how the hobby morphs. People will be drawn to what they see and understand, and influence changes thereafter, just as they have always done in any market. Mor of them will not make the changes happen any quicker...at least, I don't see how.

[grayfox1119]

Hey guys, we are missings Tim's original question, as we have turned onto a branch line of economics 101. So let me answer Tim's question first:

I have also read question after question from newbies, and I had the very same questions when getting back into this hobby after many years. What I noticed was, the new guys didn't seem to purchase any of the great books, and some videos, on getting started. They seem to use this forum for a starting point, so I think Tim's point was to create a thread or even a new forum that is directed towards the new hobbyist to get them going..where to look, what to look for, so they don't get discouraged and run out the back door. If you look back at the threads, you see the very same questions being asked over and over, so lets bind these together into a "starter' manual (on-line).

Secondly, to address the side issue on economics....I have been there guys, 43 years working in industry, MBA in business, and EE degree also. No, I am not trying to impress anyone, that is not me at all, I just want you to know that I am speaking to you from a point of having been involved with multi-million dollar decisions over the past years before retirement. What we are talking about here is "economy of scale". When a new product hits the market, lets say DCC to keep it in our focus area, there is always a segment of the buying public that will buy the new technology right away, even though the price is high. As manufacturing builds more units, the cost to produce the item lowers, so the manufacturer lowers the price. As this occurs, the 2nd order effect takes place as more people begin buying the DCC units. This occurs until the market is saturated ( no more buyers ). If we have too few buyers due to a diminishing interest in the hobby, the base starts to disappear. The manufacturers are unable to recoup their costs, so the prices stay high.
Bottom line, we most certainly have to grow this hobby, otherwise it will become a hobby for the rich who can afford the high prices. Radio Amateurs are facing this very same crisis today, in a hobby that once was thriving. Now they are just about eliminating the Code test because they need new members, the old timers are dying off and the young guys are not entering the hobby.
Remember, this is a hobby, not like buying cars that we need to travel about, we do not need MRR ( heaven forbid), it needs us.

[BRAKIE]

I would allow we need new modelers..If the hobby stagnates in growth it will eventually die...No new hobbyist no future.
We must teach the unlearn(new hobbyist and those that might be interested) that one does not need $150.00 locomotives,$30.00 cars,DCC,Sound and etc to enjoy this great hobby.One does not need a basement size layout..
Now for those that thinks the hobby is growing then I call your attention to the WGH campaign backed by those that stand to lose the most Kalmbach and the manufacturers.A good campaign with faults..It should be aim at all ages instead of the older folks.We need hobbyist of all ages to insure the future of the hobby.
Now..For those that insist on bashing every product that doesn't fit your self impose modeling style I ask you this..Do you know how much more damage you might be doing to the hobby with your constant bashing? How many new modelers or those that may want to join the hobby sees this and the new modeler quits in disgust or those that are thinking about model railroading as a hobby moves on to find a better hobby.
Yes..We need new modelers.

[GMTRacing]

Tim,
I had forgotten how enjoyable this hobby can be, and now that i have rediscovered it, i would like to see it continue. I don't know if a repeating magazine article helps unless research shows that magazines are an entry point for newbies. My concern has been more lowering our average age (according to Sam Posey it's gone from 40's to 50's and now beyond). Out of pure selfishness, if most of the hobbyists have died off at some point will our LHS' continue to stock MRR stuff? At any rate much of modern education seems to teach that working with our hands is somehow inferior to pushing paper. Can MRR get into schools by pushing the craft angle? Much of our sustainable growth will come from appealing to video gamers perhaps by stressing the wireless DCC aspects. At any rate sites like this are in my mind more important because younger people (jeez i sound like an old coot no?) are far more computer literate and open to learning from the net than we will ever be. There are probably not too many people under age 20 that regularly pick up a book or magazine unless they are already interested in the subject. Interesting thread you've started. What do some of the younger MRR crew think? Regards, J.R.

[Anonymous]

I'm going to retire in three years and have decided to build an N scale layout as a hobby. So, as a new guy here are some thoughts on the subject.

When my son was small in the 70s I bought a cheap N scale package. We were moving around a lot in the military and didn't have the room or the desire to build a layout that we would have to take down every couple of years. However, back then the toy stores and department stores sold engines and rolling stock at relatively good prices and we began collecting some. We didn't see many of the LHSs around. We could package up the N scale stuff easily for moving and I've kept it over the years. I realize some of it probably isn't going to run well, but I can work on it or use it as scenery.

Unfortunely, Star Wars came out and my son developed an interest in that. He now has a basement full from collecting over the years. He just tried to convince my wife to go with him at midnight on Friday to go around to Walmarts and Targets to get the unique next generation issues that will be gone in a few hours.

However, my grand daughters are very interested in trains - started with the Thomas the Train stuff and I can get them interested in working with me.

I've restarted on N scale by doing research and this forum is one of the best places to get info. I don't see the need to run a topic for new guys every few months if the search capabilities or navigation around the forum were improved. There are some real gems that aren't discussed very often and thus don't move up in the forum. It is a real pain to try to go to pages deep in the forum. It would be nice to have a go to page capability. The keyword search produces disjointed results. It is nice to be able to follow the full discussion on a topic rather than getting a mass of one or two responses from different topics.

When I see something I think might be useful I put it in my favorites file and also copy to topic files I'm creating. Based on suggestions from the forums, I've begun buying a few of the suggested books.

When I first started reading the forums I thought there was a lot of elitism. It is like fly fishing for trout here in Colorado. If you don't have the $1000 dollar rod, the $300 reel, and Scottish wool pants with the heated waders or tie your own flies, you are looked down on. It takes the fun out of it. I'm just as happy fishing at times with a cane pole and worms with a bobber. However, the more I read in the forums, I've seen that it isn't necessarily the case and a new person can learn a lot from the experienced people.

I used to build plastic model airplanes and had over 400 when I quit. It is a good example of an industry that has lost the range of models it had in the 50s and 60s and is pricing itself out of the market. On the other hand, I've been involved in the graphics market and the prices of things like computers, printers, and digital cameras have come down drastically as they were made available to the mass market - while the technology has improved significantly. The more people involved in a market is a major market expansion driver. I agree that model railroading is somewhat of a niche market and it would be difficult to expand the market significantly, but the principal still applies.

The second point I would like to make is that new people coming into the hobby can bring in new ideas. For example, when putting together buildings, I've seen a little on using and printing on card stock - but not much. With photoshop and today's inkjet printers a person could do some really nice work. My concern would be texture, but I've gone to the LHS and looked at the pre-moulded styrene and the texture is almost negligible for N scale. I think I could print some very realistic looking streets with more realistic variations and print them on photo matte film that is similar to styrene rather than on card stock. I've also had experience printing on different media such as watercolor paper, tyvek and canvas that do provide some texture. I've worked with some artists that print on even more exotic medias.

I've looked at some of the forum threads on backdrops. I haven't seen anyone use actual scenes taken with a digital camera and printed on various media. With even an average digitial camera, one could take a series of photos, put them together in a panaroma (I've even seen a $9 application that would do this), and have it printed out on some of the large format printers for the price on an expensive locomotive - if the reprographics shop had a good raster image processor (RIP). I worked for a company that built very large format color scanners and we worked with the large format printer companies. I've scanned postcard size documents at 300 dpi and printed them out 36 inches wide with almost indistinguishable loss of resolution and excellent color renditions. I've printed documents as long as 25 feet with the printers. Today's desktop injet printers use the same ink technologies and printheads and have gotten better with 6 and 8 color capabilities.

The backdrops could even be backlit and set up to vary the light conditions. I've read that some of the museums do this. I've even thought about some of the display systems that are available for exhibit booths that can change scenes or have a moving scene. These are expensive, but it wouldn't be too difficult to build one from scratch with a slow rotation motor that would be significantly less expensive.

Bottom line is I think there are more positive benefits from expanding the number of model railroaders than negative ones.

[TurboOne]

Way to go guys. This is a fantastic discussion. We all see the bottom line. The hobby needs to grow, and the younger the better. Your LHS has very few customers under 40 anymore.

I like Bob (FundyNorthern) idea on the WGH video. I think it should be available for $4.99 or less. Get people started. Quite trying to sell them at $24.99 for a profit, sell tons for under $5 and get more people going.

If more people get started, then they will buy a train magazine sometime. They need that beginning article to get them going. With more people buying and more advertisers coming on board, they can add the 5 pages to welcome the newbies. Prototypical layouts and cars, kitbashing a car, are all great, but way to high end for the newbie. Read Aardvarks post, *** (greyfox) and see that us newbies are asking the same questions. Be extra nice, when you see a poster that is new, or hung around is just now getting around to asking questions, welcome them. Great them with a smile. Don't tell them to throw their brass track and tyco/mantua trains away. The idea is to have fun with trains. Maybe they think like I did, everything else from the 60's and 70's is worth more. My tyco train is probably worth hundred or thousands of $$$$. Don't laugh [:D] I did. As long as the train runs, and they enjoy it, that is a start. Many well meaning folks on this forum told me my stuff was crap. Now I know it was not as good as BLI, peco track, etc...but I need encouragement not a lecture.

I like the newbies idea for the forum, great place to get some answers to the same questions. That would be cool. But I learned about this forum after going to the GATS show. IN person contact is where we can grow this hobby.

Many good ideas here.

Tim

[MRTerry]

Thanks to all who have contributed on this topic, which, as you can imagine, is one that we spend considerable time considering.
Two quick corrections: 1) The WGH DVD sells for $12.99, not 24.99 as one poster stated, and 2) we did a special magazine for beginners (simple layouts, click-together track, etc.) last holiday season that sold for $9.99 and included the DVD with the magazine. (As you can imagine, that price barely covered our costs, but we thought it was one way that we could help new people get a good start in the hobby.)
Best wishes, and thanks for reading Model Railroader,
Terry

[MisterBeasley]

We need to be better ambassadors. Invite your friends over, particularly those with kids. Model Railroading is in danger of becoming a secret society, meeting in stealty basements and using mysterious code words. When was the last time you saw a public layout display other than at an open house or a train show? There used to be a very large HO setup at a nearby mall every Christmas, but I think they'd rather have another 3 pushcarts with velvet Elvis paintings and cell phone accessories these days.

Maybe some of the clubs that exhibit at shows could do a mall or two, in the off-season when the floor space isn't so valuable. Put out some train show fliers, and some LHS business cards. A few parents are going to note that look of wide-eyed wonder on their children's faces, and maybe those lucky kids will get a train instead of another throw-away video game.

[Anonymous]

I agree about needing more "exposure" for the hobby, and also a better reputation - I suspect more than a few people would like to get into the hobby but are worried about the reaction of friends and family - I know I was very careful not to mention my trains to classmates throughout school, because I knew how they'd react and really didn't want the hassle. If the perception can be changed it will undoubtedly help - When you consider that people who spend thousands on modified cars (a la "Fast and the Furious") are considered "cool", why not those who spend similar sums on models? Greater exposure can help change this - it's hard for people to make jokes about "anoraks" and "playing with trains" when they see precisely what's involved in building a decent layout.