Shay Locomotives

[Anonymous]

Hi, everybody! I'm 12, and have a 20' by 22' layout. I'm thinking of having a logging branch. So,I have a question about Shays. I already know that the Shay geared locomotive was developed by Ephraim Shay (1839--1916), a Michigan logger who grew weary of the difficulties of skidding and floating logs to his sawmill. Tinkering in his workshop in the winter months, Shay built his first operating locomotive in 1880. It was basically a flatcar with adjacent vertical steam cylinders set along the right side; a vertical boiler was in the middle and a water barrel and fuel box occupied the opposite ends. A crankshaft drove a pair of geared trucks through a system of universal joints and drive shafts along the cylinder side.
In 1882, Shay assigned manufacturing rights to a small company which would grow into the huge Lima Locomotive Works. The design was refined and enlarged over the years; it was offered in models burning wood, coal, or oil. This locomotive differed from the Climax and Heislers by the side-mounted cylinders and running gear as well as the pronounced offset of the boiler, designed to balance the weight of the cylinders. Both two-, and three-cylinder versions were offered as well as two-, three- , and four-truck models. A Shay might only go 12 mph on level and could climb very steep grades. Phew.
Now, my question is how steep of grades can the model and the prototype trasverse? Any replies would be helpful.[tup][(-D]

[tatans]

12? c'mon, maybe you should teach spelling on this forum, good for you!! you will find with a logging layout, you will be in a minority, but a few guys on this forum will be very helpful. A lot of equipment was borrowed or made from scratch so your imagination can go wild. Keep in touch here with your progress and send some photos,dude.

[dacort]

On the Cass Scenic Railroad website, it says they have grades up to 11%.

http://www.cassrailroad.com/

[Anonymous]

Thanks. I geuss I am a goad speler[:D]. I guess I want to be tidy or something. Maybe my mom's advice about not misspelling words in my homework.[:D][:p]
Dacote, I have heard about the Cass Scenic Railroad. It runs excursion service on the former Mower Lumber Company logging line. It owns the largest Lima-built Shay, which was a three-cylinder, three-truck unit built oringinally for the Western Maryland Railroad in 1945. It weighed 324,000 pounds and had a tractive effort of 59,700 pounds. The large locomotive operated on the 9 percent grades of the Western Maryland's Chaffee Branch but was retired in 1953 and sent to the Baltimore and Ohio Transportation Museum. In April 1980, the loco was taken to Cass.

[Anonymous]

As a Shay fan and sometimes editor, I'll add that you've offered us a quite professionally written capsule history of Ephraim Shay and his locomotive.

Not that we need much more information than you have provided, but a good website for more Shay lore is: http://www.shaylocomotives.com/

If you've a mind to run a model Shay up steep grades, I would suggest testing the model and some logging cars on some temporarily inclined track before nailing anything in place. I believe the prototype would outperform its scale model descendents.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

20x22' spells correct? knows a lot about shays? 12? We could have a prodigy here.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, very much StuckArmChairing. That makes me feel wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My mom took me to the Railroader's Museum in Altoona, Pennsylvania when I was 4. I was totally hooked. I stayed at their model railroad exhibit for almost 3 hours. I mean, I was REALLY amazed! I bought my first MR magazine when I was 5. Bought my first locomotive when I was 7. Thanks!!! VERY MUCH!!!!!!!

[cacole]

A video I saw on TV (RFD-TV, a satellite channel) about the Cass Scenic Railway has two Shays pulling tourist trains to the top of the mountain because the grade is too steep for only one locomotive to manage.

The former Western Maryland "Big 6" Shay, as it is known, was the last one ever built by Lima, and is used to haul freight deliveries on the Cass to its connections with the outside world.

They don't mention in this video about ownership of the Cass, but it seems to be a subsidiary of the C&O. The Big 6 is on a 50 year loan to the Cass from the B&O museum in Baltimore.

[countershot]

who................ um yeh you are a Freeking smart 12 year old.....and you are my kind of guy a fellow train geek! I am 13 and i do not have a big loyout but i am getting there i have a 4x8 but i am adding on a nother 4x8 sheet that is going on this week.
What scale are you running N,HO,O,G maybe Z.

[gvdobler]

Very impressive for 12 or 32 years old. With a 20 x22 layout, I think we're all coming over to your house.

Make sure you take some pictures as you progress. Your project sounds interesting.

Jon - Las Vegas

[Anonymous]

Hey, Countershot, I posted on your topic. I live in PA and model the Pennsy, Pittsburgh and Shawmut, and the Lake Erie, Franklin, and Clarion railroads in HO. My layout uses a technique kinda like the "stage" by, I think, John Armstrong. I have a U with a central peninsula. But I have Backdrops so the back part of the loop "isn't there". You can only see the front of the loop, so the trains actually look like they're going somewhere. Thanks.

[countershot]

Dude you send pic's right now must see.[:O]

[Anonymous]

CounterShot, I don't have a camera. I'm going to buy one soon. I also am going to start a website[:D] I'll post all the pictures I take on there.

[countershot]

well when you do give me the link[banghead]

[countershot]

i send you some pics of my pathetic little layout[*^_^*]

[countershot]

pennsyperson what locomotives do you have and I sent yousome emails so check your Email[:)][angel]

[Anonymous]

You sure done your homework little dude. A few question please. Some of these are questions you're going to ask yourself anyway, if you haven't already.
How long have you been studying Logging operations?
Would you be intrested in links for logging operations and sawmills?
Do you buy Timber Times? http://www.timbertimes.com/
Will your logging branch be a narrow gauge road? if so, will it interchange with a standard gauge railroad?
Do you, or will you, have a sawmill operation with a log pond? If yes, how large and what era?
How many loggs or car loads will the logging road produce? Is it enough to supply your busy sawmill or will the railroad pick up logs from another location?

I'm building a micro layout, HOn30, with a logging theme. The locomotive is a Class A Vertical Boiler Climax. It will be a tiny operation and will be set in the late 1890's or early 1900's. The entire layout is 2 foot square and will occupy the inside of a 40" radius curve of a standard gauge railroad and as a view block. The micro layout is removable to allow access to service the curve and to operate off site.

[Anonymous]

sure wish i had 20X22. Im stuck with a 3 foot wide shelf around my 10X11 bedroom... Lots of linear space though, good for yards and such.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

sure wish i had 20X22. Im stuck with a 3 foot wide shelf around my 10X11 bedroom... Lots of linear space though, good for yards and such.

Make the most of the space you have. Take a short cut to Micro Layout Gallary

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pennsyperson

Thanks, very much StuckArmChairing. That makes me feel wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My mom took me to the Railroader's Museum in Altoona, Pennsylvania when I was 4. I was totally hooked. I stayed at their model railroad exhibit for almost 3 hours. I mean, I was REALLY amazed! I bought my first MR magazine when I was 5. Bought my first locomotive when I was 7. Thanks!!! VERY MUCH!!!!!!!

Heh, I've been hooked ever since the day I saw one of those huge Long Island Railroad GP-38-2's rumble across the crossing on Railroad Avenue in Center Moriches when I was 3. The geeps are gone now, replaced with the new EMD DE30's, the DE's dont have have the character those old oily geeps had. Whenever I get my car Im going to go around the island armed with a borrowed digital camera and snap as many photos of the geeps (They belong to the New york and Atlantic RR now) As I can, them, the MP-15's and the SW1001's before they disapear and are replaced. I think Thomas the tank engine had a big part to do with me getting addicted to trains (As it is with every modeler my age it seems)

Im 15, and this august will mark the 10th year since I started reading MR (My first issue was the August 95 issue with dean fretags stoney creek and western) I'll be starting my forth layout this fall, my first serious operations oriented layout.

[dinwitty]

Logging lines would be in heavier grades and the Shay was well used on them, don't be afraid to have heavy grades.
note 1% grade is 1' in 100 feet, a good working example for 3% grade is a yardstick 1 inch high on one end, roughly.
nyah nyahs for those who want to be exact...I use it as a general construction rule.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

you will find with a logging layout, you will be in a minority,

Nope, there's 4 primary types of modeler's, Coal, Logging, industrial and passenger. in that order, there is a vast number of people that do logging layouts, especially in the larger sizes (O, S, G) where short trains are more common. Logging is becoming increasingly more popular with the smaller gauges as well, as people want to get away from coal (the everyones doing it syndrom).

There are exceptions, as there are people out there that will combine the 4 types in a multitude of combinations, but it always balances out that coal and logging are the two most modeled aspects.

Shays were used in high grade and sharp turn areas, so it would not be un usual to see a shay going up a 3-5%, and occasionally a 6% grade and traversing what would consitute a 10-15" radius curve in HO scale.

[tatans]

According to many polls posted here, the majority of responses were freight related, also by the amount of freight cars sold compared to other systems, seems to confirm this , Myself I don't know of one other person logging and just came from a large train show and not one logging operation was to be seen, I tried to buy some logging cars here, one guy had 3. our LHS has 2 shays(hundreds of dollars) and possibly 8 logging related cars and no logging type buildings, the owner said he sells maybe 10 cars a year and never sold a logger loco. this in a city of 980,000. I have never seen a layout dedicated to coal. I do agree some layouts probably combine a bit of all 4 groups somewhere on the site. let's hear some more on just how many log exclusivley???

[Anonymous]

When it comes to logging locomotives, what is the difference between a Shay, a Climax and a Heisler? If you get the chance, come to Cass. I think you will enjoy it. Bring a sweater or jacket even if its in the summer.

[Anonymous]

As I understand it, the Heisler has rods driving the wheels on each truck (gear drive to one axle then coupled with rods, cylinders are inclined under the loco) while the Shay has gearing connecting all axles (and the drive system is all on one side with vertical cylinders). The Climax seems to have driveshafts to each truck and a different cylinder arrangement - inclined alongside the boiler. I'm guessing they were designed to be just different enough to avoid infringing patents - they're all "variations on a theme". If you go to www.walthers.com and search for the three names you'll find photos - that's where I found this information. I've wanted one of the HO scale ones for ages but the price is a bit high for me!

[Anonymous]

Being interested in both the logging & mining history of my region, I've been paying attention to logging layouts that I've seen online. My current layout thus far only has a logging portion begun but will grow to include other industries. Logging lines of the past in these mountains generally were organized as common carriers anyway and never carried only a single commodity so I'm not worried about a need to be "exclusive" to be a "logging line."

We may be getting into a question of semantics or statistics here. Being in a minority of modelers isn't a bad place to be. Minority or not, logging lines (however you define them) seem to growing in popularity with lots of opportunities for scratchbuilding. Some other modeling forums I participate in have dedicated forums for the subject and there are lots of creative layouts being constructed. Here's a link to one of the best, in my opinion: http://www.cooncreek-and-tumbleweed-springs.co.uk/

Wayne

[MidlandPacific]

You might also want to take a look at "The Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette," which is a first-rate magazine. They publish a lot of articles on logging and mining railroads, and some of their contributors (I have Alexander Zelkin in mind) are extraordinarily talented modelers with a definite interest in logging roads.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

you will find with a logging layout, you will be in a minority,

Nope, there's 4 primary types of modeler's, Coal, Logging, industrial and passenger. in that order, there is a vast number of people that do logging layouts, especially in the larger sizes (O, S, G) where short trains are more common. Logging is becoming increasingly more popular with the smaller gauges as well, as people want to get away from coal (the everyones doing it syndrom).

There are exceptions, as there are people out there that will combine the 4 types in a multitude of combinations, but it always balances out that coal and logging are the two most modeled aspects.

Shays were used in high grade and sharp turn areas, so it would not be un usual to see a shay going up a 3-5%, and occasionally a 6% grade and traversing what would consitute a 10-15" radius curve in HO scale.

I am one of those who has combined all 4. with coal, I fear being different[:p], (just kidding) but it is mainly industrial. With all the forests on my layout it was only natural I have some logging. I dont run shays or anything, trucks bring the logs to the team track and trains take the logs to the lumber mill where they become boards which are taken to the furniture factory etc. etc. There is also a good size passenger terminal on the lower level.

[Anonymous]

I kinda combine a lot of industries so I can have variety. I model steel works. Does anyone else model this? I run lots of gondolas, hoppers, torpedo cars, slag cars, ore cars, and coke cars. Most of my torpedo cars are small, but I have a Heavy-Duty 16 wheel transport car. I'm thinking about the logging line, which will be narrow gauge that transfers with standard gauge. I also run a Pennsy passenger train, and I also have many lineside industries.[^][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by countershot

well when you do give me the link[banghead]

[#ditto]