question about UP licensing

[Anonymous]

http://www.gorail.org/

[Anonymous]

On the contrary, I think I posed a very good example. I pointed out a real political issue with general public support and how that wasn't enough to go anywhere. I find it charming to think that you really believe you can capture enough public support somehow convince Congress to save model railroading from your perceived doom.

What law is it exactly that model railroaders are going to mobilize against? You mobilize the masses for the March on Washington. I'll buy coffee & donuts for both of you.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

You're the funny one. 5 million dues paying hobbyists called the National Rifle Association took on the law enforcement trade associations (not the street cops) and a relatively small number of hard core gun control advocates. The NRA also cost Al Gore the election in 2000. You made a VERY BAD choice of example. The gun lobby is actually an example of the raw political power of hobbyists. Now I need qxygen, I am so breathless .Take a Poli- Sci class. PL:EASE

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

You people are coordinating your attacks on me and then comparing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking.

Too funny. Model railroaders as political activists. Recently the assault weapons ban expired despite the support of nearly every law enforcement organization in the US, demonstrations and lobbying by officers, letters, phone calls & emails from many hundreds of thousands of citizens and a promise by President Bu***o sign an extension. Congress didn't even consider it.

I bring this up to point out the naive assertion that a few model railroaders will somehow pressure Congress to restrict a single company or industry from enjoying the rights to their legally held property since it may not appear to be in current commercial use. The sky is not falling. Data has not been offered to support anyone is killing the model train industry .

As to the assertion that people are coordinating to attack anyone, that also is too funny.

Wayne

[shawn-118]

So how is UP destroying this hobby? According to the Atlas web site a licensed UP or CSX C-630 loco is the same price as an unlicensed CN, CP or undecorated one. So if Atlas is making licensed UP's at the same price as unlicensed CN's where is that killing the hobby by making it unafforable for people?

Now Kato is charging $5.00 more for their UP licensed products according to their ads in MR. But when you look at the price it will cost you to take an undecorated loco and turn it into an UP it will cost you more than the $5.00 in decals, paint and time.

So I put it to you who is destroying this hobby, UP or the Manufactures that see this as a chance to raise prices and put the blame on some one else. If Atlas can make a licensed product at the same price as an unlicensed product why can't Kato? Who stands to make more from this UP or some of the manufactures?

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp

I also believe that the UP has the right to take whatever legal actions they want to get what they want. Don't ba***he UP, ba***he people (us people???) that allow those laws to be passed and enforced.

I thought lawyers wrote the laws, instigated suits, made sure that court awards are totally insanely high (I guess the lawyer on the other side agrees to this in advance) and kept all the money from them. You mean that everyday citizens actually are involved in the law making mechanism?

Seriously . . . .very interesting post.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
[brThe general public sees us as immature adults playing with toy trains.

Hey . . . I resemble that remark!!!!! [:D][:D][:D]

[dehusman]

Johnblair:
I doubt people are coordinating their responses to you (I know I haven't talked with anybody else). The cliche that comes to mind is, "If everything's coming your way, maybe you're in the wrong lane."

Since you are such a big supporter of railroads, please tell us what public hearing or town council meeting you have attended and publicly testified or spoke out on behalf of a railroad.
When was the last time you wrote your elected officials in support of some legislation that affected railroads?
How many Operation Lifesaver preseentations have you given?
How many presentations have you given to schools, scouts or civic groups on the history and role of railroads in America?
How many scouts hade you assisted in getting the Railroading merit badge?
How many tresspassers or vandals have you reported to the railroad or local police?
How many people have you encouraged or assisted in persuing a career in railroading?
What advocacy groups do you belong to?

Just telling your buddies you like trains and getting a warm fuzzy when you hear a whistle off in the distance isn't being a "supporter".

The reason railroaders won't convince UP to eliminate the logo licensing is because its not about railroads. Its about UP protecting its logos in the general public. If there were no railroads at all the UP would still be trademarking its logos.

Dave H.

[bcammack]

Maybe we should model airliners instead. The airlines are economically viable, intelligent, well-managed organizations... [:)]

[BRAKIE]

Hello wake up people! The railroads never did like railfans as they see us as trespassers and a liability.The general public sees us as immature adults playing with toy trains.
I just don't think a group of railfans or modelers have much say in railroad matters in the public or railroads eyes..

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

You people are coordinating your attacks on me and then comparing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking.

Too funny. Model railroaders as political activists. Recently the assault weapons ban expired despite the support of nearly every law enforcement organization in the US, demonstrations and lobbying by officers, letters, phone calls & emails from many hundreds of thousands of citizens and a promise by President Bu***o sign an extension. Congress didn't even consider it.

I bring this up to point out the naive assertion that a few model railroaders will somehow pressure Congress to restrict a single company or industry from enjoying the rights to their legally held property since it may not appear to be in current commercial use. The sky is not falling. Data has not been offered to support anyone is killing the model train industry .

As to the assertion that people are coordinating to attack anyone, that also is too funny.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

Well, if the Model Train industry dies, I have a good collection of products to last me. I hope the railroads have more support than just modellers. The only other model rr'ers I know are on this site, and I don't think many are in Michigan. I also believe that the UP has the right to take whatever legal actions they want to get what they want. Don't ba***he UP, ba***he people (us people???) that allow those laws to be passed and enforced. Why is it everyone is so happy to pay $50 for a $7 shirt that says NIKE (foreign employer of children), but they won't pay an extra nickel for a box car?

[Anonymous]

That is why UP should consider a compromise position that I discussed in the other UP thread which will provide UP a way to educate buyers of train sets as well as model railroaders about today's UP as well as to deliver safety messages to model/toy train buyers.. Killing the model/toy train industry will do nothing to benefit UPs bottom line (AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, THIS WILL KILL IT). I am through with this discussion.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

You people are coodinating your attacks on me and then comparoing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking. Railfans/model railroaders are the ONLY people outside the railroad industry who support the railroads in public debate. It is interesting to note how many issues the railroads are getting pounded on these days If UP wins this, thjey'll bring down another 1/100 cent per share to the bottom line. If they lose, they can regain the respect of the ONLY group of voters who don't mind the sound of a locomotive horn and if you don't think that is important, then maybe you should go to your local community college and take a Poli-Sci 101 course. and I'm sure that this hobby and its participants have made a BIG difference in seeing that railroad friendly public policy has been put into force. UP's arrogance, is endangering that. Of course, it is no coincidence that Cornelius Vanderbilt said "The public be ***ed" Maybe UP doesn't think it needs friends but if their greed wins out in court, they will see what it is like to go to public hearings where no one EVER speaks up for them. They might as well scrap their steam fleet at that point and save some money. Joe Sixpack thinks everything can go by truck. WE know better but will we care if UP stabs us in the back?

I am not attacking you, just disagreeing with out. If you perceived anything I said as an attack on you let me know.

If I read you correctly, you think that railfans are assets to railroads because they can change public opinion of railroads. Can we? I have been trying to think of a railroad friendly law that has been enacted because of railfans. So far I have not been about to think of any. Railfans come from just about the entire political spectrum. Therefore, no matter that the law is, it will not get 100% support from the railfan community. Only a railfan who puts trains before any other interest will support all possible pro-rail laws. Combine that with the fact there are not large numbers of railfans out there and I do not see railfans being a political force. They only hope is to get the public to appreciate trains more, outside of liking them the way we do. So far, it appears that if railfans have been doing that, we have failed.

[Anonymous]

You people are coordinating your attacks on me and then comparing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking. Railfans/model railroaders are the ONLY people outside the railroad industry who support the railroads in public debate. It is interesting to note how many issues the railroads are getting pounded on these days If UP wins this, they'll bring down another 1/100 cent per share to the bottom line. If they lose, they can regain the respect of the ONLY group of voters who don't mind the sound of a locomotive horn and if you don't think that is important, then maybe you should go to your local community college and take a Poli-Sci 101 course. and I'm sure that this hobby and its participants have made a BIG difference in seeing that railroad friendly public policy has been put into force. UP's arrogance, is endangering that. Of course, it is no coincidence that railroad tycoon Cornelius Vanderbilt said "The public be ***ed" Maybe UP doesn't think it needs friends but if their greed wins out in court, they will see what it is like to go to public hearings where no one EVER speaks up for them. They might as well scrap their steam fleet at that point and save some money. Joe Sixpack thinks everything can go by truck. WE know better but will we care if UP stabs us in the back? As for the retired agreement employee who thinks UP is doing the right thing, I cannot comprehend his position in light of the fact that corporate management, not model railroaders made his life miserable for FORTY YEARS. Now he is sticking up for them in this forum. Maybe if railroads scheduled their trains like the rest of the transportation industry does maybe they could staff their trains with some anticipation of work schedules for their employees. Hunter Harrison of CN is working along those lines and his railroad is piling up awards for quality service, low cost and employee morale.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp
I notice that you resort to ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you. Can you make your case without them? By the way, if model railroaders are the only group of people who think railroads have a future, then say goodbye to railroads. How many shippers are railfans or model railroaders?

Good point, ericsp. It's the revenue producing shippers and stockholders that are the railroad industry's "best friends."

As a model railroader, I've never had much clout at any railroad corporation's annual stockholder meeting. As a model railroader, I don't believe my influence with the Federal Government is any greater. The idea that "I'm a Model Railroader and I vote" carries any weight is a cute over-estimation of our influence.

Wayne

Judging from his post following my last one, it looks like he is hoping that model railroaders and railfans will be able to persuade the public in general to view railroads more favorable and thus cause more favorable laws for railroad to pass and unfavorable ones to fail. However, neither railfans nor model railroaders have been able to do this and I doubt we could.

[dehusman]

I don't see how everybody thinks the UP is out to "destroy" model railroading because it has registered trademarks. The UP licenses haven't put anybody out of business, they haven't stopped any new UP models. The UP is just a business doing what a business does, protecting its name and image. Every auto manufacturer does it, every beverage company, every industrial machinery company, UPS, every airline does it. The UP's image has been used in a derogatory manner in the past and they have sued (and won) to protect it.
The hobby industry is doing more "harm" to itself than the UP will ever do (the Lionel lawsuit and bankruptcy, the acquisition of Athearn and MDC, the elimination of entry level kits, the emphasis on R-T-R, the spiraling cost of models, etc, etc, etc.) That's where the danger is.

Dave H.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

Hey, BRAKIE, by your handle it sounds like you are a railroad (probably UP) employee who has a few shares of (probably UP) stock. Well. the few cents that you stand to gain from shaking down the model railroad industry will be overshadowed by just another blast of bad press that will result from this EXTORTION. Especially despicable is the way they went after Athearn who is the VERY last major producer of model trains in America, Then these guys have the audacity to put the American flag on their locomotives. Oh, and by the way if you really are a brakeman, you know how bad labor relations are in the railroad industry and UP is the absolute WORST. Now I'm getting nostalgic for the ICC.

John,You're way off base.I was a brakeman for the PRR/PC and later the C&O under the Chessie and CSX banner..
I do think you need to relax and think about railroading as a whole..You say UP is the worst in employee moral.Wrong! How about www.csxsucks.com ? I can recall when everybody hated the NS because it ended their steam program.There are those that are misinformed that hate the Chessie because of the WM.Well you see C&O/B&O/WM was not merged during the Chessie era..
Bad press? Never mind that.Go to the shippers and ask them what they think of RAIL SERVICE in general.
BTW I do not own any UP stock or any other railroad stock..You think I want to LOSE money? If you do then you are very foolish.
No,your comments is that of a uninformed modeler.You actually think a multi billion dollar corporation is going to get rich from trade mark fees when they spend millions of dollars every day??
You do know CSX has a licensing fee?

Like it or hate it its the current trend of Corporate America regardless if its a railroad or not to charge to use their name or logo.Get with the times.The free ride is over.

[davekelly]

Licensing is such an interesting topic. Of course I think what is important is what is the purpose of the licensing. I remember long ago, Chessie started some sort of licensing agreement. What they were looking for was to have manufacturers let them review the product before production to see if it was of high quality or someething like that. I think this is totally appropriate. I'm not sure of the UP thing, though. It doesn't seem that the amont of money raised (and it seems to be just a money quesiton not like Chessie) will make a dent in UP's bottom line. I still think there is a compromise here that will work to benefit both. Let's say that UP works with manufacturers to help ensure accurate colors and logos. In exchange the manufacturer agrees to put a little piece of paper in the box which tells the history of UP and what innovations that UP is introducing in order to increase safety, decrease costs to customers etc. The modeler gets a more accurate model and UP (or EMD, Ford etc) gets some free advertising and good will. Seems like a win win situation. Licensing does not have to include a monetary exchange.

[Anonymous]

It was mentioned that NASCAR and pro sports are entertainment and railroading is transportation. This is true. If you look at Ford, General Motors, Dainler-Chrysler, Harley Davidson, etc.. all those modl products are licensed. I notice the model Taurus vehicles I bought made by Atlas say it is a Ford licensed product. I guess Ford has just killed off the model car hobby with its licensing fees.

My wife collects Coca Cola stuff. All of it is licensed by Coca Cola. They are not in the entertainment business. They are in the beverage business. I got a Lionel monopoly game as a gift a year or two ago. Clearly stamped on teh box is "official licensed product". They are trademarking the use of their models which are replicas of actual products made by American Locomotive Company, EMD, et. al. If Lionel can license their products, why not UP or anyone else?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp
I notice that you resort to ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you. Can you make your case without them? By the way, if model railroaders are the only group of people who think railroads have a future, then say goodbye to railroads. How many shippers are railfans or model railroaders?

Good point, ericsp. It's the revenue producing shippers and stockholders that are the railroad industry's "best friends."

As a model railroader, I've never had much clout at any railroad corporation's annual stockholder meeting. As a model railroader, I don't believe my influence with the Federal Government is any greater. The idea that "I'm a Model Railroader and I vote" carries any weight is a cute over-estimation of our influence.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

it is true that few shippers are railfans or model railroaders but the railroad industry and Union Pacific in particular need to court public opinion in a democracy. Bad press and miserable labor relations are plaguing the industry and now they are bent on destroying a group of hobbyists who are the only group among the general public who has any good feelings toward them. I am not attacking those who support Union Pacific, I am merely stating the obvious fact that Union Pacific is making a grave error here and risks alienating a lot of pro-rail VOTERS, in fact the ONLY consistent group of pro rail voters. Public opinion does matter. America is still a free country. Besides, Union Pacific has been losing customers to BNSF and trucks because it can't manage its system.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsoderq

Before you start another war, almost any other hobby has had licensing for many years - Nascar, all pro sports, auto models, truck models, almost everything you can think of so UP is not going to kill model railroading. Diecast is stronger than it has ever been and it is almost 100% licensed.

YOU SITLL DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT STAKE. Model railroading IS UNIQUE. Our trains are barely affordable for many people now . I think your Pro licensing stance is ideologically based. NASCAR is in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS. Images ARE their MAIN PRODUCT Railroads are in the TRANSPORTATION business and the WIDESPREAD perception is that Railroads are DANGEROUS BAD NEIGHBORS that are DISAPPEARRING anyway. This perception is being strongly reinforced by the railroads themselves with their Operation Lifesaver and other programs wh8ich are designed to highlight how dangerous railroads are to the surrounding community. While safety messages are important, the fact of the matter is that the railroads have aboput the WORST P.R. there is. And I will PUBICLY DEBATE your boss John Bromley on that point. Go ahead, kill the hobby and take out the only group of people who believe in railroading
Railroading IS NOT NASCAR OR THE Beatles AND IT NEEDS ALL THE FRIENDS IT CAN GET.

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

Hey, BRAKIE, by your handle it sounds like you are a railroad (probably UP) employee who has a few shares of (probably UP) stock. Well. the few cents that you stand to gain from shaking down the model railroad industry will be overshadowed by just another blast of bad press that will result from this EXTORTION. Especially despicable is the way they went after Athearn who is the VERY last major producer of model trains in America, Then these guys have the audacity to put the American flag on their locomotives. Oh, and by the way if you really are a brakeman, you know how bad labor relations are in the railroad industry and UP is the absolute WORST. Now I'm getting nostalgic for the ICC.

I notice that you resort to ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you. Can you make your case without them? By the way, if model railroaders are the only group of people who think railroads have a future, then say goodbye to railroads. How many shippers are railfans or model railroaders?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

- Edited to remove reply.

Looking back at the thread, it's clear that simply disagreeing results in rudeness.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

We ARE the rauil industry's biggest supporters. UP may be legally able to do this but it'll hurt them in terms of good will if they do. Us hobbyists are the only people who have any good will toward the rail industry. Of course ti'd help if they got another voiceover and lose the (UGH) bluegrass music in their commercials.

[dehusman]

Its such a hoot to read people's posts where they disparage, demean, insult and threaten the UP for page upon page, then state that they are the UP's best friend or biggest supporter.

Dave H.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

This is done under trademark law, not copyright law. Copyrights expire, trademarks do not. Once the copyright expires anyone can use it for free. The purpose of trademark law is to prevent confusion by not allowing a second company to copy the slogans, symbols etc. of the first. Thus you can't use UP's trademarks to trick people into doing business with you thinking it is Union Pacific. Failure to protect trademarks can result in their loss - for example asprin.

You are correct in pointing out the difference between Trademark and Copyright. They are different entities although very similar in certain aspects. One of those is the issue of Fair Use. I am not a lawyer either but as a musician and former music teacher, I have become well versed in copyright law. I know much less about Trademark Law and do not know where the line is drawn for use. The fact that RR Logos of so many RRs has been used without permission for so many years, may be a factor in how the suit will be decided....?? Thank you for your post. [:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Ok guys, I think we have covered the licensing thing pretty well. It sounds like Kadee is going to be brave, and challenge big bad UP. All it takes is one clever lawyer to find a loophole in the trademark law, and many of us have long felt that the manufacturers may be able to make a case based on the amount of time that passed before UP took action. There is also the issue of the fallen flags.

So, all you legal eagles, here's a question. Say I take a photo of a UP locomotive, and decide to create and market a calender or a book. I can copyright the material, but do I owe them for the trademark?

[Anonymous]

gvdobler You are wrong and UP is wrong They may be able to enforce thjis in court but they'll lose the only friends they have in the general public. Actually I'm beginning to think that they went too far with deregulation of the railroads and the arrogance of UP and the other Class 1's tends to bear this out. The railroad industry has the worst labor relations in US industry and every day bad safety news is splashed across the headlines Us hobbyists are the ONLY people who believe in the industry but it tis getting harder to do so. Fine, pick our pockets, it'll cost you in the long run.

[IRONROOSTER]

This is done under trademark law, not copyright law. Copyrights expire, trademarks do not. Once the copyright expires anyone can use it for free. The purpose of trademark law is to prevent confusion by not allowing a second company to copy the slogans, symbols etc. of the first. Thus you can't use UP's trademarks to trick people into doing business with you thinking it is Union Pacific. Failure to protect trademarks can result in their loss - for example asprin.

I'm not a lawyer so I can't give you all the legal arguments about why UP needs to prevent model companies from using their symbols much less why trademarks for fallen flags would still be active. My own personal opinion is that the trademark law should not apply here.

Even if the hobby loses in court, I think the hobby will survive. Though we may see some interesting work arounds if the licensing costs get too onerous.

Enjoy
Paul

[gvdobler]

johnblair

I just stated my opinion, I have not changed my position.

You ever notice when people are wrong they start yelling.
(that's the caps lock button for the ones that don't know)

Yikes

Jon - Las Vegas