Athearn kit modelers

[Paul3]

jesionowski wrote:

QUOTE: That right, that is why everybody is calling Life Like for new gears or substituting Athearns that don't break

IMHO, that's a failing of Life-Like's over-thinking when improving the drive. What makes sense to me is that LL was concerned with the axles slipping around the wheels, so they tightened the tolerances of the shaft to increase friction. Unfortunately, this can also rupture the axle gear with little to no warning due to the extra pressure of the tighter tolerances.

But, other than that, wouldn't you say they have improved the basic Athearn drive? It's quieter, smoother, more efficient, uses fewer amps, etc. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's still an improvement over Athearn...

BRAKIE wrote:

QUOTE: Sure did..He also stated that they used some newer Athearn SD40-2s with good results.

Which can hardly be called the clasic Athearn blue box drive of old with dog bone drive shafts, nickle-silver wheels, etc.

QUOTE: Sure did..Only by adding the weight that Athearn failed to add over the years except for the super powered F7.

Um, that's not all they did...

QUOTE: But we won't mention the gears,trucks,motors and drive shafts are interchangeable.

Good, because they aren't all interchangable...

QUOTE: Nor will we mention the crack gear issue of the P2Ks,

See above.

QUOTE: the warped handrails that came with the SW9/1200 and other noted problems such as the locomotive side frames being to thick on the SD60 as well as some other minor detail flaws.

I thought we were talking about drives, Brakie, not details?

QUOTE: Yup..I also recall the Kato complaints on the Atlas forum as well.Paint to thick,wrong details etc but,we won't recall those posts will we? Kato is far from the best of the best..

For drives, they are way up there. Fact is, at my club, most people measure their loco performance against what a Kato would do.

QUOTE: Paul,That is a little known fact that Atlas help design the proved Atlas/Kato drive.

Can you post some evidence of this fact?

QUOTE: Reading the complaints found on the Atlas forum about all brands I can't help but wonder if the high dollar locomotives is worth buying?

They can be if you know what you are getting into. Have you heard any complaints about the SD90MAC's? Or the Athearn SD's that even CurtMc liked? (don't ask me which ones, I can't keep them all straight because they aren't New Haven...) My Kato RS-2 runs like a champ. The Lionel Challenger got high marks, IIRC. And I've heard nothing but praise for the Atlas Dash 8's. But like all things, there are dogs out there (BLI SD40), so buyer beware...

Paul Cutler III
***************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
***************

[Anonymous]

Nothing wrong with Athearn, I have the 2 SD-40-2's I had since I was a kid, they growl? yes. Do they pull like a mothersucker? yes! If you can deal with the noise and ruff running of some of them there a cheap solution to motive power.

[Anonymous]

Almost all my rolling stock is Athearn. It is astounding to me how someone can spend fifty bucks on a boxcar because it has a few details that I could add to a six dollar Athearn model and spend, tops, about seven or eight bucks extra, for a grand total of fourteen dollars. I'm not saying the high end models don't have a place in the hobby. I am saying that the vast majority of us can't afford a 50 car fleet consisting of models costing thirty to fifty dollars each. Athearn blue boxes enable who know's how many thousands of modelers to build a respectable rolling stock fleet. Sometimes the details can be poorly manufactured. Good thing the LHS usually has 150-200 in stock. I can almost always find a good kit. It will be a shame when they're finally gone.
The snobs at your club are jerks (assuming they're serious). Who gives a flying rip what they think. Blue boxes are an asset to the hobby.
And I say, God bless them![:D]

[Don Gibson]

TODD McWILLIAM wrote:

QUOTE: The guys at my club say I am a wann-a -be model railroader, because I don't run Katos and Atlas and Proto's

Remember "You can tell the men from the boys, by the price of their toys"- Mrs. Gibson.

BRAKIE wrote:

QUOTE: Reading the complaints found on the Atlas forum about all brands I can't help but wonder if the high dollar locomotives is worth buying?

Not to fear, not to fear..

[Anonymous]

I have two boxes of 30 athern boxcars completed. They are ready to go in a train and what a train it will be.

Would it hurt anyone's feelings if I said I had two boxes with 30 Intermountain/Kaydee 30 dollar boxcars ready to go in a train? That is like almost a thousand dollars sans engine.

I probably have about 200 bucks tied up in the athearns and I am happy. I hope they keep building them blue boxes forever because people cannot afford the high dollar stuff.

[Ibflattop]

Hey - I run Athearn and Roundhouse along with my older Tyco yes I said Tyco and AHM stuff. I also have converted some of my older equipment with KD's. I also run Proto 2000s. I dont have any Kato or Brass cause they are out of my range.
Who gives a flying pigs Whooooo whooo what you run! This is a hobby, and if you are having fun doing it. It relaxes you and takes the stress from the day away, Then keep doing what you are doing!
We are all here to support each other in the Hobby, and if there are people who want to get on their soapboxes, and want to preach about the new fangle engine that is the best running! The best pulling! The best Blah,Blah, Blah....... Come to Realitiy and just support us alll. Whatever we run!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kevin

[steveblackledge]

It's a hobby, if you enjoy doing what you do that's all that matters [:D] i am a Blue Box modeller and it's great, you can upgrade at little cost with metal wheelsets and McHenry couplers to get em rolling smooth. I just sold a bunch of stuff [:(] but with the money i bought 2 broadway limited imports loco's (they are great) but there will ALWAYS be blue box stuff in my collection[}:)][:)][}:)]

[BRAKIE]

Paul,If you want the proof of Atlas helping design the Atlas/Kato drive I highly suggest you look through your back issues of MR from the 80s(or there about).
As far as measuring any brand of locomotive against a Kato I would not bother seeing that Kato is no better or worst then any other brand judging Kato by my 4 Kato GP35s. So no Kato Kudos or Kato flag waving here.
BTW I been WAITING MONTHS for a reply from Kato answering my question if they planned on doing a C&O GP35..[:(!] That type of customer service I can do without.[:(!] After all a simple Thank you for asking would have suffice.
Seeing the new Athearn RTR GP35 looks and runs as good as a Kato GP35 Athearn will be getting my C&O GP35 money.[:D][tup]

[Paul3]

yankeejwb wrote:

QUOTE: It is astounding to me how someone can spend fifty bucks on a boxcar because it has a few details that I could add to a six dollar Athearn model and spend, tops, about seven or eight bucks extra, for a grand total of fourteen dollars.

Well, first, find me a $50 boxcar. The most expensive boxcars are Kadee's, and they are approx. $30, not $50. Secondly, you'd have to buy metal trucks ($6), Kadee couplers ($1), grabs, steps, see-through walkway, new brake wheel, brake rigging, ladders, doors, etc. for the $7-$8 Athearn car It would not be "...tops, about seven or eight bucks extra, for a grand total of fourteen dollars." Then there is the labor involved. You'd have to shave off all the molded on grabs, ladders, door rails, etc. and replace them all, then you'd have to paint and decal it. Is that worth $30? A lot of people seem to think so.

Ibflattop wrote:

QUOTE: Who gives a flying pigs Whooooo whooo what you run! This is a hobby, and if you are having fun doing it. It relaxes you and takes the stress from the day away, Then keep doing what you are doing!

Remember, the original quote was about a club situation, and clubs can have standards that preclude AHM/Tyco products, or even blue box products.

QUOTE: We are all here to support each other in the Hobby, and if there are people who want to get on their soapboxes, and want to preach about the new fangle engine that is the best running! The best pulling! The best Blah,Blah, Blah....... Come to Realitiy and just support us alll. Whatever we run!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, not in a club. If your equipment does not meet club standards, then it won't be allowed to run in said club. Now, nothing has indicated that to be the problem in the original case mentioned, but the "Whatever we run!!!!!!!!!!!" line is not for everybody.

Brakie wrote:

QUOTE: Paul,If you want the proof of Atlas helping design the Atlas/Kato drive I highly suggest you look through your back issues of MR from the 80s(or there about).

Um, that's not how it works, Brakie. You made the claim, you substantiate it. When in a debate, you don't ask your opponent to make your case for you.

QUOTE: As far as measuring any brand of locomotive against a Kato I would not bother seeing that Kato is no better or worst then any other brand judging Kato by my 4 Kato GP35s. So no Kato Kudos or Kato flag waving here.

I know. You are one of the very few anti-Kato people I know. [:)] But even you have to admit that their drives are first rate (which is what this was all about, remember?).

QUOTE: BTW I been WAITING MONTHS for a reply from Kato answering my question if they planned on doing a C&O GP35.. That type of customer service I can do without. After all a simple Thank you for asking would have suffice.

Oh, I don't doubt you at all. Kato is one of the more clueless manufacturers I've seen. Remember that quote on the Atlas N-scale Forum? Where the guy asked the Kato reps at the Springfield show, "Why don't you do more New England railroads?" And the Kato reps response was, "But we just did some Pennsylvania Railroad locos." Duuuuuhhhhhh...

QUOTE: Seeing the new Athearn RTR GP35 looks and runs as good as a Kato GP35 Athearn will be getting my C&O GP35 money.

Well, since neither company is making any New Haven stuff at the moment, I'm buying Protos. [:D]

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
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[Anonymous]

You purchase what you want or what you can afford. You get it to operate smoothly, you build up a train consist, you run it down the track. You are a model railroader. The fools that need to put a price tag on whether or not they are modellers is their problem, not yours or mine. I build what I want, I still scratchbuild things I cannot find or cannot afford to purchase. My trains match my era, my old diecast (very re-detailed) Mantua and Varney locomotives (some Bowser as well) run like swiss clocks. I am a model railroader. No one can ever convince me that I am not. This is a hobby. There is no right way. There is no guru of all knowledge. There is just enjoying yourself, enjoying what you have created, and having the time of your life doing it. Let those that criticize the things that make this hobby fun for us, as individuals, take a swim in Stoddard Solvent. This may be considered a somewhat strident response and I appologize to those thin-skinned critics who may take offense.

Model railroading is fun!

Tom

[davekelly]

A true model railroader is one that enjoys his or her own way of modeling and is happy when someone else enjoys their way modeling whether the two are the same or totally different.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpaulsen

You purchase what you want or what you can afford. You get it to operate smoothly, you build up a train consist, you run it down the track. You are a model railroader. The fools that need to put a price tag on whether or not they are modellers is their problem, not yours or mine. I build what I want, I still scratchbuild things I cannot find or cannot afford to purchase. My trains match my era, my old diecast (very re-detailed) Mantua and Varney locomotives (some Bowser as well) run like swiss clocks. I am a model railroader. No one can ever convince me that I am not. This is a hobby. There is no right way. There is no guru of all knowledge. There is just enjoying yourself, enjoying what you have created, and having the time of your life doing it. Let those that criticize the things that make this hobby fun for us, as individuals, take a swim in Stoddard Solvent. This may be considered a somewhat strident response and I appologize to those thin-skinned critics who may take offense.

Model railroading is fun!

Tom

No offense taken =)

[Anonymous]

Being 15, I cant always afford a brand new train, & I certainally cant afford a DCC
engine; belive me used equiptment usually is in great condition & sometimes
detailed too. Train shows are a great source for "brand new" used blue box items.
At the bakersfield CA train show. I saw an unpainted rivrossi 4-8-8-4 big boy for
$85.00, & a KATO DCC SD-60 for $59.99. Now that's cheap !

[BRAKIE]

Paul said:Um, that's not how it works, Brakie. You made the claim, you substantiate it. When in a debate, you don't ask your opponent to make your case for you.
=============================================================
Taint that Paul..The truth of the matter is I no longer have any magazines from the 80s through 2003.I only keep my magazines 2 years before I get rid of them.
So,I thought you might have them on hand.Savvy?
=============================================================
Paul also said:I know. You are one of the very few anti-Kato people I know. But even you have to admit that their drives are first rate (which is what this was all about, remember?).
===========================================================
No Paul,I am not anti Kato..I just don't see where Kato is any better or worst then any of the brand of locomotives I own including my Athearn blue boxes..
Just put me in the group that doesn't esteem one brand above the other brands..Savvy?

[Paul3]

Brakie wrote:

QUOTE: Taint that Paul..The truth of the matter is I no longer have any magazines from the 80s through 2003.I only keep my magazines 2 years before I get rid of them. So,I thought you might have them on hand.Savvy?

Sorry to hear that, but you should have mentioned that in the first place. [;)] If I decide to go look for this factoid, what the heck am I looking for? I'm not about to search through a decade's worth of MR's without some sort of clue, here...

QUOTE: No Paul,I am not anti Kato..I just don't see where Kato is any better or worst then any of the brand of locomotives I own including my Athearn blue boxes..

Just the fact that you won't agree that Kato makes one of the best drive mechanisms out there, and that you actually think that they are no better than Athearn blue box, makes you anti-Kato to me. I'm not saying they are the best ever, etc., but they are in the upper tier with Atlas, Genesis, and P2K. Blue Box (and I mean real blue box, not RTR) is not even close to Kato in performance or detail. Why you won't admit that, I don't know what else it could be...

QUOTE: Just put me in the group that doesn't esteem one brand above the other brands..Savvy?

C'mon, Brakie, how many Tyco's are you running? [:D]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

There are many athrean & walthers diesels only 10% less in quality & nobody
can tell the difference.

[Anonymous]

Getting back to the original question, Athearn Blue Box kits have some problems but with a little work they will meet most club's operating requirements. Install Kadees, proper weight, check wheelsets with NMRA guage. This will make the Athearn Blue Box Kits ready for most any layout. True they are not super detailed but at most layout viewing distances that is not a problem.

Now the problem with Athearn Kits:
40' Box Car - Only three know prototypes exist for this car, the Branchline-Red Caboose
kits are bettter as they offer the proper ends and doors for a variety of AAR box cars.

86' Hi-Cube - this is a Hybrid of the Greenvile and Thrall Car and not correct for either.

34' Ribbed Hopper - A Scale 3'6" longer than the prototype since Athearn reused the offset hopper dies to make this car., although car is correct for the PRR H-31 cars.

A number of cars use the end off of the 40' box car , which make these cars incorrect as to tthe prototype.

A few pluses:
The PS Covered Hopper which is the only correct car for the PS 4740.
The 40' Ice Reefer which does replicate the PFE car.
The Bay window caboose which does replicate a SP protoype

At the time they were introduced they were all a welcome addition to the model railroading fraternity. I remember the 34' hoppers blowing off the shelves as all we had before were the 40' quad hoppers which again were only good for a couple of railroads.

Regarding locomotives, all the old blue box loco's were not scale width with the exception of the SD-40-2, GP-38-2, GP-40-2, and GP-50. The last three were done as well as anything KATO ever did in regards to die work, but the mechanisms still left a lot to be desired in running quallitites which is why the Overland Power Chassis did so well in the early 1990's. But for a beginner these are great locomotives to start with and will last forever along with the ability to get replacement parts which cannot be said of the limited run items of P2K, Atlas, BLI, and KATO. As a matter of fact try to get parts for an old yellow box Atlas and compare that with an Athearn GP-9. You can still get parts for that GP-9.

By the way Paul, you should get a job with MR, your defense of the manufacturers in the last couple of years would stand you in good stead with the MR reviewers in falling over themselves with good reviews of the latest model railroad products.

Rick

[Paul3]

mac 4884 wrote:

QUOTE: There are many athrean & walthers diesels only 10% less in quality & nobody can tell the difference.

"Nobody can tell the difference" between an Atlas/Kato/P2K/Genesis and a Walthers/Athearn BB? Well, I guess if you didn't run them and had your eyes closed, it would be hard to tell them apart. [:p] Other than that, I'm afraid not.

jesionowski wrote:

QUOTE: Getting back to the original question, Athearn Blue Box kits have some problems but with a little work they will meet most club's operating requirements. Install Kadees, proper weight, check wheelsets with NMRA guage. This will make the Athearn Blue Box Kits ready for most any layout. True they are not super detailed but at most layout viewing distances that is not a problem.

The only thing that my club would add to the above list would be RP25 metal wheelsets (a club requirement). But, my club is not every club. IIRC, the NEB&W layout at RIT is very strict when it comes to the quality of rolling stock, but then, they are trying to model a specific area and time.

(snip)

QUOTE: The last three were done as well as anything KATO ever did in regards to die work,...

Except for the molded on grabs, etc. But I agree, the tooling on the GP50, et al., is very, very good (especially for the era).

QUOTE: ...but the mechanisms still left a lot to be desired in running quallitites which is why the Overland Power Chassis did so well in the early 1990's

Jeez, don't let Brakie hear you say that. [;)][:D]

QUOTE: But for a beginner these are great locomotives to start with and will last forever along with the ability to get replacement parts which cannot be said of the limited run items of P2K, Atlas, BLI, and KATO. As a matter of fact try to get parts for an old yellow box Atlas and compare that with an Athearn GP-9. You can still get parts for that GP-9.

Oh? Can I get metal sideframes for an Athearn GP9 today from them? Can I get the split axles for the same truck? Can I get the wiring harness for a 1960's era GP30 (yes, it was wire)? Fact is, Athearn puts items out of production just like everyone else... they just don't do it as often, which means that any faults they have are not changed for 20+ years (if ever), either.

QUOTE: By the way Paul, you should get a job with MR, your defense of the manufacturers in the last couple of years would stand you in good stead with the MR reviewers in falling over themselves with good reviews of the latest model railroad products.

Do I know you? Is there any reason at all for the above comment? Because it shows that you have no idea about what I post on forums. Heck, I just got into a heavy discussion over on the NHRHTA's New Haven Forum for daring to criticize the brand new Precision Scale NH R-3 Mountain (in brass) because this $1,300 engine had bogus tender lettering (BTW, PSC is correcting the problem). The argument was that by being critical, it might make other manufactuers think twice about doing NH models.

Earlier, I got into hot water with more of the same people for being critical of the first run LLP2K RS-11 in NH (wrong size letters & numbers, no steam gen, etc.).

I posted a multipage article/review of the Branchline heavyweight coach that was very critical of the fit and function of the many detail parts. A simple tooling error of not allowing enough space for the paint was (and is) the problem.

I posted another review of the Athearn NH/NETCo. TOFC 50' flat when they came out, detailing everything that was wrong with it.

On the Atlas Forum, I had people yelling at me for being waaay too critical of Con-Cor and their completely false NH streamlined passenger cars (the only thing they got right was the letterboard lettering).

I once posted an entire list of all the bogus NH Athearn models, like the SDP40's and F7's.

This is defending manufacturers?

What I don't like are people taking unfair shots at manufacturers, for expecting manufacturers to give away products out of the goodness of their hearts, for expecting a low-cost model to have high-cost features, and more.

I complain about manufacturers where I think it's appropriate. I also complain about hobbyists where I think it's appropriate. What's the big deal?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
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[METRO]

I don't think we could count the number of us who started out with (and still use) blue box. My first locomotive was a hand-me-down Athearn F7 and it still pulls on my layout.

While it's true, I've begun to buy more P2K, Stewart, Atlas and Kato power lately, the only Athearns I've actually replaced were my grandfather's old rubber band drive RDCs. I've still got several Athearns running and I have no plans to retire any of them anytime soon.

I've spent long hours detailing many of those units and putting DCC into em. As far as I'm concerned the locomotives hold their own right alongside my newer power that just had the details put on at the factory.

Then there's rolling stock. While I've replaced much of the Athearn passenger coaches with Walthers and Kato stock at least 70% of my freight cars are blue box kits. Every boxcar (which make up the majority of my freight cars) except three are Athearns. I've seen much of the Walthers, Atlas, Intermountain and other makers freight and while it's nice, I still like to sit down and build kits. It's one of my favorite parts of the hobby.

Build On Blue Box Fans, Build On!

~METRO

[pennsyj1fan]

Nothing at all wrong with Athearn Blue Box kits, I have a bunch of them still to be built. I bought them well before Athearn was taken over by Horizen and now I won't buy Atearn anymore. I bought a 2-8-2 when they were first out as they hadn't sold a steam engine for decades, I wish I had bought one when they were out in the 60's. Horizen had played with the "little guy" too much, the guy that owns a hobby shop that only wanted to order a few Athearn kits at a time and Horizen said they have a minimum order or they wouldn't sell to them. Now MDC is in the same boat so to speak. I'll enjoy assembling my "blue box" kits and think of better times. I have been to several train shows here in Cols, Oh and the RTR run kits and the higher prices make me glad I bougth all I could afford years ago. Bih business dictates anymore and the little guy getting something for a good price is done with. I still like Athearn Blue Box kits made in this country. Irv Athearn was top dog until Horizen. Too bad the employees didn't but the company upon his death. I feel everybody would have been better off. I'm not a rivit counter, the cars might not have been in perfrct scale or exctly like the prototypes but I'm having fun, I can run what I like behind my twelve Pennsy Brass Engines form various companies, mostly Westside, and it's my railroad and I don't have to adhere to what a club member says or if they want to measure for exact size. I built the cars I don't slide it out of a box and if someone wants to complain they can pick their coat up on the way out. For someone just getting started in model railroading the kits were good, now they have to start with RTR from Athearn at a higher costs. Progress is not alway good for the beginner with limited funds, but buy what you can and enjoy the hobby.

Steve

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Paul3[/i]
Except for the molded on grabs, etc. But I agree, the tooling on the GP50, et al., is very, very good (especially for the era).

Excuse me, the GP-38-2. GP-40-2 and GP-50 did not have molded on grabs, but they did have starter holes for placing your own wire grabs. And, yes the SD-40-2 did have molded on grabs which had to be removed.

By the way the P1K RS-11 hoods were too short which is why I did not buy any, gave the engine an entirely wrong look.

By the way your right, I did forget to suggest to change out the plastic wheels for metal ones, I have been doing that on all my cars as of late.

Any I do have a lot of old Blue Box kits that I painted and decaled and will never give up on due to the work involved when I built them. But I am in the process of updating the cars with A-line stirrup steps and metal wheel sets.

Rick

[Anonymous]

I will have blue box kits as long as Athearn keeps making them.The locomotives will last forever and are easy to work on and tune up.Throw a NWSL motor in there and they will run as good as a Kato.Kato has the best tuned drive in the hobby.You cant compare the two and be fair.Kato is high end while the blue box is entry level.I have as much fun out of my blue boxes as I do my Kato units.Add some basic detail parts and they become a good looking unit.I was hoping Bev Bel would be around for awhile but it looks like Horizon cut them out too.I loved the Bev Bel decorated freight cars.Also looks like Railrunner will disappear too.Dan

[Paul3]

jesionowski wrote:

QUOTE: Excuse me, the GP-38-2. GP-40-2 and GP-50 did not have molded on grabs, but they did have starter holes for placing your own wire grabs. And, yes the SD-40-2 did have molded on grabs which had to be removed.

Ok. The only Athearn BB GP38's, 40's, and 50's I've seen all had been superdetailed. But I do own a SD40 shell with it's molded on grabs, so I hope you will forgive my assumptions.

QUOTE: By the way the P1K RS-11 hoods were too short which is why I did not buy any, gave the engine an entirely wrong look.

Yeah, I didn't like the way they looked, and didn't buy any myself. I have an old Atlas RS-11 (which has it's own problems) in NH. It's the first great running engine I ever bought, so I'm kinda partial to it.

QUOTE: By the way your right, I did forget to suggest to change out the plastic wheels for metal ones, I have been doing that on all my cars as of late.

By far, the best single thing to do to improve performance for rolling stock.

BTW, am I still "falling over myself" in my praise of manufacturers?

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

I run some of the blue box diesels on my layout. They may not pull as many cars as the Atlas or Kato, but they look good with a little detail work. The blue box rolling stock are excellent, in my book. If you're looking for good pulling engines on a budget, try the Walthers Trainline, or Bachmann. I have a Walthers B40-8 that will out-pull any of my Atlas diesels. The Bachmann GP-50 is probably the best $25.00 engine on the market. I have 4 of them.

[3railguy]

I favor Athearn blue box kits because they are inexpensive, nicely painted and detailed, and preform well on the track. They are easy to assemble and can be easily customized.

[BRAKIE]

Paul asks:C'mon, Brakie, how many Tyco's are you running?
=============================================================
Sorry to disapoint..But,I never own a TYCO engine..I have rebuilt some of their gons though.
Now I do have a old Model Power RS11 that my wife got me for Christmas many years ago..Does that count? [;)] [:D] That engine still runs..I don't use though..It has more of a keepsake then anything..

[Anonymous]

I do have some Tyco GP-20 Shells mounted on Hobbytown Chassis, does that count. At least they are the correct hood width, and a lot of work went into making them NYC units.

Paul, I have only seen your posts in the other direction. I usually only read posts that interest me, the notice that a certain model has been released usually does not pique my interest, but I usually read those that ask a modeling or prototype question for rail-roads.

Rick