Train kills man painting graffiti on boxcar

[Catt]

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

[bruce22]

To Catt: I am in agreement with you, how crass and unforgiving some individuals can be. Thankfully most modelers I have met are people that I feel good to be around.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Catt

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

I can. Matthew 18:26-35.

These guys feel so superior now, but then I'll bet some of them ride motorcycles without helmets or protective clothing, gab incessantly on cell phones while driving, don't wear seat belts.......

You get the picture.

Andre

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Catt

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

REV. CATT:

One always feels simpathy for unnecessary or accidental loss of life, however it is impossible to save people from themselves. A person so cavalier as to trespass where there are posted signs - intent on defacing someone's property - to the point of getting hit by an oncoming train ranks somewhere between stupid - to improving the human Gene pool. How about pitchig a tent on the Tarmak of a busy airport?.

As I said beore: it is impossible to save people from themselves
.
As for your above appraisal of your fellow man in the hobby - May I concurr with your assesment 'what you are doing in it'?

Look at all the stupid things people do in cars.

[jwar]

I doubt very seriously that everone of us on this forum has done somthing really stupid in our lifetime, if not then perhaps your pulling our leg a bit. The original post was info not a blame game and everone is getting a bit carried away from what this forun is all about...model railroading ...and a forum of some great people with the same desire of a hobby. I respect all of your openions however I reserve the right to keep mine. Of which few of you would care to hear anyhow...LOL. See you guys out on the modeling forum....

[Anonymous]

It seems like there's a couple things going on here. Some people are mad at the guy for tagging. Some think he's stupid for being on the tracks.

We've had people on this forum admit to something similar to tagging as well as being on the tracks.

Last night I was checking out railimages.com. Guess what I saw - pictures people took while on the tracks. (read my personal experience above, and you'll see why this horrifies me, just looking at the photos makes me kringe).

This tagger did something generally considered mean and disrespectful, as well as something generally considered stupid. I think the two are combining to make it seem excusable make his death seem deserved or something to some people. I can understand that happening. I'd just like to urge everyone to reconsider - no harm, no foul.

I know good people who've done both (disrespectful as well as stupid things). If I was standing face to face with anyone on this forum, I doubt you'd wish me dead because I made a stupid decision involving train tracks. If you've never done anything stupid, I'd be quite impressed.

Similarly, I wouldn't call our fellow modeler who told his vandalism/arrest story above a loser for having done something stupid involving a rock and a window when he was a kid. Instead, I'd admire him for telling the story of how he learned from the mistake.

Put the two of us together, and you have the dead guy. I mean this with all due respect to the other model railroader (not to mention I totally dig your modelling, and have many of the same modeling interests!!!).

I'm glad I'm not dead. I also know I'm no better than the dead guy.

I feel like an idiot sitting in an office at work with professionals telling my train encounter story - they normally look at me in disbelief, because I'm such a logical person. But I can also see them realizing how dangerous trains are, and I can tell they're realizing it for the first time.

But I only tell the story because I know since I made such a poor decision, other intelligent people could do the same.

We're all train geeks on this forum. We think we're so cool because we know so much about trains. Not everyone does, and I don't think we should laugh at them for dying because of that.


P.S. here's one from memory - a picture in MR of the old student fare guy sitting on the railroad tracks with his HO engines. (Rick, if you're out there reading this, PLEASE don't consider this a jab, just an example of how the tracks often don't seem as dangerous as they are).

I know I've gone on for too long here, but my first grade teacher's son was killed walking on the tracks. I felt like I disrespected her after my incident on the tracks. (I'm here hoping I've convinced others to stay off the tracks).

OK - now I'm going on way too long - just today, a truck in front of me pulled onto the tracks at a red light, where he was actually trapped by other cars, and didn't even think twice about it. I was frankly terrified. I'm glad they're not dead.

Everyone makes mistakes. Today none of my mistakes killed me. Hopefully tomorrow will go as well. I wi***he same for all of you.

I've enjoyed this discussion. Now should my upcoming layout be DC or DCC?

[davekelly]

What ever happened to Rick Selby?

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by gmcrail
["The only capital crime in nature is stupidity. The punishment is always death, and the sentence is always carried out swiftly and without mercy" -- Robert A. Heinlein

Which novel is that from?

I think it's from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from "Time Enough for Love." An excellent source of ponderables from a heavy thinker.

I just hope some of the folks posting above about their concern for the state of our souls don't get nosebleeds from standing on their high horses...I do have human concern for them, after all.

personal revelation #2: I used to be (and to an extent still am) pretty involved with the punk scene. For a while, about ten years ago, train-hopping was a fad for punk kids as a way to get around the country. Now, some of my friends did this successfully for years and have great stories to tell. But one of my friends who did this was a very sweet teenage girl who joined up with a crew of kids hopping a freight to Seattle, and wasn't quite fast enough to get onto a moving boxcar.

And, to make a long story short, the car cut both her feet off.

After the odds started catching up with these kids, and a few ended up maimed or dead, either due to angry FTRA railroad bums murdering these mostly pacifist kids or the inevitable accidents that occur when dealing with trains, train-hopping passed from fashion.

So, to reiterate, not only do I know what it's like to be a vandal, I know what it's like to have friends critically injured by freight trains. But I still think that kid was stupid.

And no, I don't drive without my seatbelt, and if I did ride a motorcycle I'd wear a helmet. And I don't stand on the tracks when I railfan--I take Part 214 railroad safety training every year, and think I have an idea of what to do and not do to avoid getting hit by a train. I am way past the age where I thought I was invincible and invulnerable. The survival rate of life eventually drops to 0%--this is inevitable--but I see no need to lessen my odds through carelessness.

And as far as what happens afterwards--I live my life by example, and have no problem with my level of compassion for other people. If a deity decided that I am not worthwhile because I call stupid behavior stupid, that is that deity's problem.

And if "Heaven" is filled with people who would like to stand and gloat while other people are being judged, then I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend eternity with them.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Catt

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

Its not coldheartedness, its indifference to chosen path of choice.

Yes, its cynical to say that, but you seem to not acknowedging the fact that individuals like this CHOSE the lifestyle and the course of events that led to his own demise. Am I going to feel any sympathy for in individual who puposely puts his life at risk by being in an inherently dangerous location in order to commit an act of vandelism defacing someone elses property?

Please try to understand our point of view. Any person who CHOSES dangerous habits or activities has to in effect chose that their life could end any time they engage in said activity. A few years ago a base jumper (parachuting off cliff faces) died when thier chute and back up chute failed on a jump off El Capitan in Yosemite Park. Tragic for the family, Yes, but in my eye, that person KNEW the risk when they leaped, they made the CHOICE to so. No one forced them. Same for this kid, he KNEW it was dangerous to enter an active frieght yard but he CHOSE to do so, he CHOSE to tag a car and he CHOSE the circustances that put in the crosshairs of a passing train. That is why I have no sympathy.

This past weekend a 13 year old Idiot gangmember out here stole a car and ended up being pursued by the police, when his co-theif bailed out and ran, he threw it into reverse and rammed a police car, the cops shot the kid, He's dead, and the families are screaming that the cops had no right to be pursueing thier good little boy who just happened to be behind the wheel of a stolen car who then drove flat out with no concern for any other motorist or pedestrian ttrying to get away from the law and while attempting to run down the cops trying to arrest him ended up with a bullet in his head, Ohhhh poor little boy....It soooo sad, what a waste...

Eh not quite, He chose to hang out with gangs, he chose to steal that car, he chose to run, and he chose to run down the cops, ..... He chose ALL the circunstances that lead to his demise.

Why should I have any sympathy for a idiot like this? If this tagger was killed by a peice of debris while standing next to the tracks waiting at a crossing. That would be tragic, a dam shame and a loss. But intentionally putting yourself under the hammer is another thing altogether.

Its is evolution visably in action. The smart live...the stupid die.

How hard of a concept is that?

[Anonymous]

"Death by misadventure" is the best description that I've heard.

Bob boudreau

[davekelly]

Amazing that this thread has been one of the most popular in awhile.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: The smart live...the stupid die.

How hard of a concept is that?

I guess everyone is stupid then [:-^]

[vsmith]

Well, yeah I can see your point in that we all die eventually, but the smart ones figure out how to put it off for a lot longer than the stupid ones.[:D][;)]

[davekelly]

I agree that many folks choose to do activities that are a little more dangerous than others. Motocross, skydiving, mountain climbing etc. Then of course there are those that choose dangerous vocations - military, police, firefighting etc. Some might call these stupid, others might call these adventurous. The difference is that people that do these things are not criminals nor are they harming others for their own pleasure. So, yeah I do feel sympathy when these folks are injured or killed.

[vsmith]

Kinda says it all.....With apologies to Mr Larson...[;)][8D]

[Jetrock]

SMITE!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith



Kinda says it all.....With apologies to Mr Larson...[;)][8D]

That is pretty funny Vic, I've always liked the Far Side.

One thing to consider is that the courts aren't handing out death sentences for vandilism (yet). Appearently God is. [swg]

[espeefoamer]

This guy was doing something both crimanal,AND stupid[:(!].That greatly increses the chance that something terrible would happen to him.He most likely tagged many freight cars before and nothing happened. Someone might do something stupid 100 times and get away with it, but on the 101st,time the odds will catch up with him and he would end up either arrested or dead.

[Bikerdad]

QUOTE: I know what he was doing was wrong but the little dude did not need to die for it. If he was committing a robbery or burglary I would be like good.

The only difference between committing robbery and this is that another person wasn't directly involved. The only difference between burglary and vandalism is that the vandal only appropriates another person's property for his own purposes temporarily. Of course, the burglar rarely damages or destroys the property.

QUOTE: He DIED for a crime that didn't really hurt anybody.

It did hurt somebody. It hurt the people who own that boxcar he was tagging, people who spent part of their lives to earn the money for that boxcar. Now, part of somebody else's life will have to be spent repainting the boxcar. The tagger has stolen something that can never be replaced: time.

QUOTE: The family should come pick up their relitives body parts and clean up? No one responds to that ignorant comment? Gang member or not is not the issue here. It is a young man that dies while doing something wrong yet not harmful to others.

As already noted, property crimes DO harm others, because property (except for real property, i.e. dirt) doesn't come into being without someone investing their time, skills and energy into creating it. And yes, the family should have to clean up the mess. If they don't, then the railroad has to (why should they have to pay to clean up somebody else's criminal stupidity?), or the taxpayers of Toronto will end up paying for the cleanup.

QUOTE: If I caught the guy spraying my house with paint or someone elses house I would stop, grab him by the throat and call the police. Would I want to see him ripped in 2 by a train for spraying something, hell no.

Why call the police? Doing so means that you ARE willing to see deadly force used against a tagger. I realize that you may not intend for deadly force to be used, but its more likely that a tagger will be killed by police than by a passing train. We don't know what the tagger has done in the past, nor what he would have done in the future. What we do know is that he was killed by his own carelessness during the commission of a crime. I'm not surprised that many consider this to be cosmic justice, karma, what goes around, existential payback, etc.

I think this event is unfortunate, a testament to the temporal consequences of human sinfulness, and the eternal consequences. Little evils can have big, even terrible consequences. As for what God would say, which God are we talking about? The God who condemns the tagger to eternal Hell for such an "inconsequential" offense, or the God who went to Calvary to give the tagger a reprieve for the same offense? They are one and the same.... God, I'm certain, is saddened. I'm also certain that He could have nudged the tagger forward, safely clear of the train, but He didn't...

May God have mercy on his soul.

[Anonymous]

Yesterday I saw a woman (dressed in very nice clothes, getting into a BMW or some other such expesinve car) purposely walk over to the sidewalk in a parking lot, and place her empty drink bottle on the ground.

She littered. She even made some comment to her friend about "not wanting to look like she was litering".

I was fuming mad when she did this - she obviously doesn't live in the circle of people who clean up after others. I was pretty upset. But, I'm sure glad she didn't die for it.

I realize this is nowhere near what the tagger did. But where do you draw the line? We all do stupid stuff (I happen to never do any type of littering, disrespecting property, etc.) but we all do stupid stuff. It's downright sad that this guy died.

If I do something stupid like not check my air pressure in my tires, and it causes my tire to blow or something, should I be dead. Dang, I hope nobody thinks that about me, that would suck.

Where do you draw the line? I said it before - we're all railroad freaks on here. The rest of the world isn't as familiar with trains as we are. Are you living near a radioactive testing zone of the country? Maybe some people would think others are stupid for living where they live. I know, this is extreme, but I don't know how you choose where to draw the line.

[Jetrock]

I've purposely set my empty drink bottle on the ground rather than in the trash, knowing that a homeless guy would be along in a few minutes to pick it up and put it in his cart, saving him the trouble of rooting through the trash for it.

Sometimes maybe exploration of the motive behind an action is part of it. Of course I was "littering," but someone benefits from my litter.

[Bikerdad]

QUOTE: Where do you draw the line?

Interesting question, and I'd wager you can get 50 different answers from 50 people. There are some who will say that not even Hitler should get the death penalty, and others who consider the criminal codes of Ghengis Khan to be too lenient. Most of us fall somewhere on the bell curve between those two extremes. One thing that must be pointed out here, in this instance though, is this: nobody "pulled the switch". The "justice" was meted out as a mechanistic, natural consequence of his actions, not our justice system. Perhaps there is a strong element of schadenfreud working here, perhaps its irony, perhaps merely different sensibilities of justice, likely some of all these and more that make up the kaleidoscope of human emotions and perspectives.

We saw the same dynamic play out with the recent derailment in Southern California, only with that one, other people paid, with their lives, for the stupidity and criminality of one person. Is it any wonder that some folks have little sympathy for criminal stupidity, and feel relieved and fortunate that only the stupid criminal has suffered serious consequences, and in this tagging instance, won't be around to visit mayhem upon the rest of us? It shouldn't be a wonder...

Justice is getting what you deserve, good or bad, nothing more, nothing less.
Grace is getting good stuff that you don't deserve.
Mercy is not suffering the bad that you do deserve.

[davekelly]

Bikerdad (what do you ride?)

Your post is very interesting - especially the part about what people think appropriate punishment is for misbehaving. Of course the cool thing is we live in a place where we can not only have different opinions and beliefs but can openly discuss them.

Your sentance "grace is getting good stuff that you don't deserve" is very thought provoking to me. I think that every time I see my son.

Dave

[Anonymous]

GEEZZZZZZ..... This BS about how life is so precious, is just another major boat load of it IMHO. Just look at corparate america for beginners. They could care less about life, just as long as they can get the $$$$. Look at the cars/trucks that have been produced, that have burned people alive, rolled over ect.... Do they care. NO it was cheaper to pay the wrongful death suits then it was to fix them. Lord forbid the CEO/shareholders lose a little money.

Lets see.... Do I buy the drugs that will let me live, or do I need to eat/pay rent ect....

Flame me if you want.... However, it will not change the way things are done. Until the people that are in charge, take on the responsibility of their actions. Then we will have the "precious life" that is so much talked about

[Jetrock]

It's nothing new...bringing the subject back to railroads, keep in mind that the Westinghouse air brake system and MCB knuckle couplers had been around for decades before the laws enacted in 1896 or so mandated their use on railroad equipment--railroads were too cheap to upgrade equipment, regardless of how many of their brakemen were maimed or killed while coupling link & pin couplers or braking hand-braked cars.

I don't have much truck with the argument that vandals are damaging "just stuff" and life is precious, either, after some kids broke into the Railroad Museum's trains, broke windows, urinated and defecated inside the cars, etcetera...for no reason other than the simple joy of wanton, pointless destruction. Their stupidity didn't injure any people, but their actions will be felt...fortunately they were dumb enough to stick around and get caught!

[Bikerdad]

Jetrock,

Corporate greed doesn't account for the slow adoption of the airbrake, technical inadequacy and the problem of interchange does. It was the car builders that pushed the technology to the point where it was viable, not government.

http://www.georgewestinghouse.com/lifetime.html

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

Yesterday I saw a woman (dressed in very nice clothes, getting into a BMW or some other such expesinve car) purposely walk over to the sidewalk in a parking lot, and place her empty drink bottle on the ground.

She littered. She even made some comment to her friend about "not wanting to look like she was litering".

I was fuming mad when she did this -

Why didnt you pick up the bottle and return it to her, preferrably thru her rear window !!! [;)]

Sorry, its the aging anarchist in me rearing his balding head.[:I] [:0]
After all, doesn't BMW stand for "Break My Windows"[?][:D][:p]

[davekelly]

I would think an anarchist would appreciate one leaving a bottle if that's what made them happy.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

I would think an anarchist would appreciate one leaving a bottle if that's what made them happy.

Errr, Hummmm, ehh, well DAMMIT I hate it when people use logic on me!

Now you got me into a logical conundrum that I cant get out of....[8D][:D][%-)][(-D][:-,][D)]

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

I would think an anarchist would appreciate one leaving a bottle if that's what made them happy.

Depends on the anarchist. An anarcho-libertarian wouldn't mind, although he'd prefer that the government not force everyone to pay a deposit on the bottle. An anarcho-syndicalist would be upset that the woman wasn't able to self-rule herself sufficiently to do the responsible thing and properly dispose of the bottle, then go turn it in for the deposit. A libertarian socialist would harangue the woman about how she is responsible for the predictable consequences of her actions. A Situationist would follow vsmith's lead and throw it through her car window.