gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL How many buttons do you push to select complex routes with a processor based system? Last time I used a Digitrax throttle it was 5........ but that's using a DCC system for non-loco control. like your approach, there are much better ways on the interlocking panel shown right, pairs of buttons on either side of a route select the route. there are internal routes as well (e.g. coach yard). that interlock had 75 routes ATLANTIC CENTRAL The first statement you quoted simply refers to laying out the panel and deciding what buttons are needed or are best. this is called human factors. where i worked on phone equipment, there was a group of industrial psychologist that made those assessment, not the engineers ATLANTIC CENTRAL A clear signal requires two things, a complete route, and both blocks on either end assigned to the same throttle. that doesn't sound typical. sounds like you're using the signal to also make sure the operator can control the train thru the block. at least i'm interested in understanding your approach, but in the context of using it with DCC. looking forward to the complete picture
ATLANTIC CENTRAL How many buttons do you push to select complex routes with a processor based system? Last time I used a Digitrax throttle it was 5........
but that's using a DCC system for non-loco control. like your approach, there are much better ways
on the interlocking panel shown right, pairs of buttons on either side of a route select the route. there are internal routes as well (e.g. coach yard). that interlock had 75 routes
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The first statement you quoted simply refers to laying out the panel and deciding what buttons are needed or are best.
this is called human factors. where i worked on phone equipment, there was a group of industrial psychologist that made those assessment, not the engineers
ATLANTIC CENTRAL A clear signal requires two things, a complete route, and both blocks on either end assigned to the same throttle.
that doesn't sound typical. sounds like you're using the signal to also make sure the operator can control the train thru the block.
at least i'm interested in understanding your approach, but in the context of using it with DCC.
looking forward to the complete picture
Ok, so help me understand, are the little circles with the x a pushbutton?
I see all the intermediate ones.
Do they have to be activated in any particular order?
Considering how much bigger that is than anything I would build, it seems like it works about the same regarding the "human factors".
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALOk, so help me understand, are the little circles with the x a pushbutton?
buttons are represented by the circles with a '+' sign (full image of panel). it works like the diode matrix circuits, the route is selected by pressing a pair of buttons that has a valid route.
interior buttons align turnouts for engine moves (swaps) and to move commuter trains to coach yards
ATLANTIC CENTRALOne major point here. The primary goal is to have a straight forward user interface - so it start there, at the panel. It will likely not make sense for the big interlocking to have too many choices. So it is likely that some diverging and crossover routes may require two or three buttons to be pushed. But it may be sensable to have a master reset that puts all routes back to their mainline default with one button.
It will likely not make sense for the big interlocking to have too many choices. So it is likely that some diverging and crossover routes may require two or three buttons to be pushed. But it may be sensable to have a master reset that puts all routes back to their mainline default with one button.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe first statement you quoted simply refers to laying out the panel and deciding what buttons are needed or are best.
sounds like there are compromises to the user interface to avoid technical complexity.
ATLANTIC CENTRALConsidering how much bigger that is than anything I would build, it seems like it works about the same regarding the "human factors".
?? just a pair of buttons to operate even though it's bigger. fewer compromises
not sure if "interlocking" refers to the trackage or mechanism to control that trackage that prevented a tower operator for doing something improper. i believe modern software control systems don't implement any interlocking mechanism. todays systems perform route alignment
without seeing an example of one of your panels and nodes for some relatively complex trackage it's hard to understand the what your approach does. I could probably make a reasonable guess at the relay control circuits by seeing a panel and understanding what the buttons do.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Greg, while not overly complex, you have already seen one of my circuits many times. The one that operates the wye.
And actually that exact same circuit operates some other three route configurations as well.
On your big panel, if I am going from end to end, I just push the two buttons correct?
And if I need those intermediate routes I push a third button? Honestly I have not studied all the routes.
On my big interlocking I will be able to restore the default routes with one button. And right now it appears the best design will use three sub sections. That amounts to most routes being selected with 1-3 buttons depending on its current state.
Lets be clear on one thing, I have never suggested that my approach is the best approach in every situation on every layout.
In fact, I personally would never even consider building a layout on the scale of that layout in NJ.
My view, expressed many times is that different solutions suit different user goals, be it turnout controls, powering trains, or dispatching and signaling.
I will be happy to share more detailed drawings of some specific locations on the new layout when they are ready. They are in the works but I am very busy at my job right now.
You seem to be expecting some more complex control panel than the examples I have sketched up so far. Most are not that complex. The goal is the fewest buttons necessary like the wye.
To answer your question about inproper routes, yes improper routes are locked out, cannot happen.
I will try an example - classic double track with a left hand crossover followed by a right hand crossover. There is no reason for both crossovers to be selected at the same time.
There are only three routes, both tracks straight thru, crossover "A" or crossover "B".
If one crossover is selected the other automatically returns to straight. So an operator would only need to push one button in any case.
Interestingly this trackage arrangement uses the same control circuit as the wye, three routes is three routes.
Extra redundant buttons can be added to the panel for operator clarity, but here you have an example of four turnouts only requiring three relays.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL To answer your question about inproper routes, yes improper routes are locked out, cannot happen. I will try an example - classic double track with a left hand crossover followed by a right hand crossover. There is no reason for both crossovers to be selected at the same time. There are only three routes, both tracks straight thru, crossover "A" or crossover "B". If one crossover is selected the other automatically returns to straight. So an operator would only need to push one button in any case. Interestingly this trackage arrangement uses the same control circuit as the wye, three routes is three routes. Extra redundant buttons can be added to the panel for operator clarity, but here you have an example of four turnouts only requiring three relays. Sheldon
In fact the same is true for the double track diverging route you asked about. There are only three logical routes. Both tracks straight, both diverging, or the tracks that do not cross aligned.
So it too uses the same primary control schematic as the wye.
ATLANTIC CENTRALGreg, while not overly complex, you have already seen one of my circuits many times. The one that operates the wye.
if i read that drawing correctly, that drawing just shows the holding circuitry, not which turnouts or signals the relays control?
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd if I need those intermediate routes I push a third button?
no just a pair of buttons.
so if you're moving an engine off a train to the terminal after the train arrives, you might move the engine forward past a turnout, select a route to align the tracks for the engine to move onto a parallel track, move the engine to that track and then select a route out of the interlock toward the engine terminal through a 2nd interlock on the east side of the passenger station.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLets be clear on one thing, I have never suggested that my approach is the best approach in every situation on every layout.
it's not clear what you think is the best button arrangement. which is why i asked about seeing a panel and buttons
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy view, expressed many times is that different solutions suit different user goals, be it turnout controls, powering trains, or dispatching and signaling.
so Richard and I are curious your approach and how it can be used on other layouts. persumably not everything is simlar to you wye case
i'm curious about how you've thought of things
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou seem to be expecting some more complex control panel than the examples I have sketched up so far. Most are not that complex. The goal is the fewest buttons necessary like the wye.
what about the vertical section near the bottom of your track plan where 5 mainline track + a spur merge to the right of where it says "Cityscape & Buildings"
ATLANTIC CENTRALTo answer your question about inproper routes, yes improper routes are locked out, cannot happen.
this is why i discussed an "interlocking" mechanism. little need because a button(s) switches multiple turnout.
but what about preventing switching turnouts under a train, your "turnout lockout"
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL My view, expressed many times is that different solutions suit different user goals, be it turnout controls, powering trains, or dispatching and signaling. so Richard and I are curious your approach and how it can be used on other layouts. persumably not everything is simlar to you wye case i'm curious about how you've thought of things
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Hey Gary -
Richard's name is Robert.
LINK to SNSR Blog
Greg, I understand what you are asking to see. I don't have a single drawing all correctly labeled for one specific panel right now.
Each of those relays in the holding circuit directly control one or more turnouts using repeated copies of the switch motor circuit at the bottom of this drawing.
One form C set of contacts on the various turnout relays powers the correct switch machine or multiple machines.
Yes I understand you would like to the coordinated details of that.
Some button arrangements are very obvious, sometimes the best arrangements depend on the surrounding elements.
I will show more examples when I can. But again, they are in the track plan itself, so they light up the selected path.
I understand, it is Robert by the way, that you and him want to understand how to apply this to other layouts. Not sure there is a quick way to explain that. It is more than using standard prescriptive formulas for each track arrangement, although that is a good starting point. Desired operations also play a role.
Yes, now I understand how your big passenger terminal interlocking works.
When I draw these drawings for my own construction and documentation purposes, I dare each layer separately.
Turnout route logic is one layer.
Power distribution to the rails is another.
Signaling is another.
But all share the same turnout relays.
Again, I will get to how turnouts in the interlocking are locked out to prevent a turnout being thrown under a train.
More later,
sorry Robert. i gave a talk at work and they spelled my name Grep
i'm trying to understand how the turnout connections in the wye example and how this approach can work in other cases.
i believe each of the 3 wye routes, just one turnout needs to be "thrown" while the other two are in an un-thrown position. for route 1, turnout A is thrown to the right while B is un-thrown to the left. for route 3, turnout B is thrown to the right and C is un-thrown to the left, route 2, C is thrown to the right, and A un-thrown to the left
thinking about a mainline with adjacent left and right crossovers, one switch throws both turnouts for the one crossover and forcing the turnouts in the other crossover to be un-thrown. similar for the other crossover, but presumably there's a 3rd switch the disabled both relays, un-throwing all turnouts
trying to imagine a case where a turnout needs to be thrown when more than one switch is pressed. perhaps a double slip where there are just 2 turnouts but 4 routes. guessing this (wye) approach isn't used there, there would be separate buttons for each turnout.
gregc sorry Robert. i gave a talk at work and they spelled my name Grep i'm trying to understand how the turnout connections in the wye example and how this approach can work in other cases. i believe each of the 3 wye routes, just one turnout needs to be "thrown" while the other two are in an un-thrown position. for route 1, turnout A is thrown to the right while B is un-thrown to the left. for route 3, turnout B is thrown to the right and C is un-thrown to the left, route 2, C is thrown to the right, and A un-thrown to the left thinking about a mainline with adjacent left and right crossovers, one switch throws both turnouts for the one crossover and forcing the turnouts in the other crossover to be un-thrown. similar for the other crossover, but presumably there's a 3rd switch the disabled both relays, un-throwing all turnouts trying to imagine a case where a turnout needs to be thrown when more than one switch is pressed. perhaps a double slip where there are just 2 turnouts but 4 routes. guessing this (wye) approach isn't used there, there would be separate buttons for each turnout.
OK, I will draw the rest of the specific turnout motor connections assocated with several of the specific situations so you can follow all the relay movements.
But it the mean time, I will give you a hint. You are obviously reading the drawing and following the relay actions. But you are forgeting something a lot of people miss.
I'm sure you know that contact status is shown in a de-engergized condition, but before you can undertand everything that happens, you have to remember to follow what happens on startup.
In both the turnout diagrams I have posted, there are normally closed contacts that energize a relay coil before any human input.
This fact is very important to the sequence of the imputs from the humans.....
I will try to make some drawings later today.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThis fact is very important to the sequence of the imputs from the humans.....
it's assumed that the system should work reliably regardless of initial/current state
some systems are developed to maintain the state when last turned off
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL This fact is very important to the sequence of the imputs from the humans..... it's assumed that the system should work reliably regardless of initial/current state some systems are developed to maintain the state when last turned off
ATLANTIC CENTRAL This fact is very important to the sequence of the imputs from the humans.....
It does work reliably from any state. But it is designed to default to the desired "normal" on startup. There is no reason to want it to hold its last condition on shut down or start up. Defaulting to primary routes and no throttles active is the desired startup condition.
Tortoise switch machines require continuous power to hold their position reliably and on startup they all need to be powered in one position or the other. Their status lights also depend on a relay coil being pulled in.
So on startup they all return to default, get powered up, and their status lights come on.
All cab assignments default to off.
So in the case of the wye, upon startup relay B Is automatically energized, that turnout moves to the straight position (mainline), and that LED lights up.
From there, pushing either of the other buttons will turn off relay B, that turnout will revert to the diverging route, and the other two turnouts with move as needed for the route selected.
There is no advantage or value in having it remember the last condition, in fact that is bad idea.
It is considerably more valveable to know that on startup turnouts are set to their default mainline condition and that all throttles are disconnected.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThere is no advantage or value in having it remember the last condition, in fact that is bad idea. It is considerably more valveable to know that on startup turnouts are set to their default mainline condition and that all throttles are disconnected.
they don't remember. those systems read the turnout position from the contacts on the switch machine
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is no advantage or value in having it remember the last condition, in fact that is bad idea. It is considerably more valveable to know that on startup turnouts are set to their default mainline condition and that all throttles are disconnected. they don't remember. those systems read the turnout position from the contacts on the switch machine
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is no advantage or value in having it remember the last condition, in fact that is bad idea. It is considerably more valveable to know that on startup turnouts are set to their default mainline condition and that all throttles are disconnected.
Well ok, but in any case it is not a feature I need or want. And Tortoise machines are known to drift toward center when no powered. Maybe not enough to break those contacts, but I still don't know if I would trust that.
When I was designing this years ago I considered the importance of hard feedback from the Tortoise machine verifying its position. One of my friends doing CTC, I believe with JMRI, considered it necessary.
I went the other way, it reduced wire/termination counts significantly.
I use one set of the Tortoise contacts for frog power and have considered using them for some other track power routing.
When running JMRI PanelPro on my DCC layout, there is a routine called 'Initialize Layout' to use at startup. It checks all the block occupancy (in case someone moved or removed a train after the previous shutdown) and then sets all turnouts to the straight-thru mainline position (regardless of how they were left). Then it sets all signal aspects based on the new (startup) information. Easy. New session, clean (and predictable) slate.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is no advantage or value in having it remember the last condition, in fact that is bad idea. It is considerably more valveable to know that on startup turnouts are set to their default mainline condition and that all throttles are disconnected. they don't remember. those systems read the turnout position from the contacts on the switch machine Well ok, but in any case it is not a feature I need or want.
Well ok, but in any case it is not a feature I need or want.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd maybe this has helped the group reach a new level of understanding of the differing views on this topic and on the hobby in general.
??
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd Tortoise machines are known to drift toward center when no powered.
they're not un-powered at start up (assumptions)
ATLANTIC CENTRALI went the other way, it reduced wire/termination counts significantly.
still anxious to see
ATLANTIC CENTRALOK, I will draw the rest of the specific turnout motor connections assocated with several of the specific situations so you can follow all the relay movements.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is no advantage or value in having it remember the last condition, in fact that is bad idea. It is considerably more valveable to know that on startup turnouts are set to their default mainline condition and that all throttles are disconnected. they don't remember. those systems read the turnout position from the contacts on the switch machine Well ok, but in any case it is not a feature I need or want. ATLANTIC CENTRAL And maybe this has helped the group reach a new level of understanding of the differing views on this topic and on the hobby in general. ?? ATLANTIC CENTRAL And Tortoise machines are known to drift toward center when no powered. they're not un-powered at start up (assumptions) ATLANTIC CENTRAL I went the other way, it reduced wire/termination counts significantly. still anxious to see ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I will draw the rest of the specific turnout motor connections assocated with several of the specific situations so you can follow all the relay movements.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And maybe this has helped the group reach a new level of understanding of the differing views on this topic and on the hobby in general.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And Tortoise machines are known to drift toward center when no powered.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I went the other way, it reduced wire/termination counts significantly.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I will draw the rest of the specific turnout motor connections assocated with several of the specific situations so you can follow all the relay movements.
I'm confussed on several levels.
Why or how would the Tortoise machines already be powered? They are powered by the same control power as the relays.
Sorry I did not have a bunch of digital ready drawings and examples ready in advance. I have pages, pages of hand drawn sketches that I can read fine, but they are not fully labeled, and not neat, and not in digital form.
Not sure I always understand what you are asking or expecting?
ROBERT PETRICK When running JMRI PanelPro on my DCC layout, there is a routine called 'Initialize Layout' to use at startup. It checks all the block occupancy (in case someone moved or removed a train after the previous shutdown) and then sets all turnouts to the straight-thru mainline position (regardless of how they were left). Then it sets all signal aspects based on the new (startup) information. Easy. New session, clean (and predictable) slate.
That is pretty much what happens here too. When you turn on the layout power, all the cabs are off, all the turnouts go back to their mainline defaults, and trains parked in "detected" blocks light up their detection indicators on various panels.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSorry I did not have a bunch of digital ready drawings and examples ready in advance. I have pages, pages of hand drawn sketches that I can read fine, but they are not fully labeled, and not neat, and not in digital form.
?? i'd really like to understanding how your stuff works.
based on the "wye" example, i thought your approach partially supported route selection
but i'm concluding that each button primarily controls a single turnout but can disable others. With block detection, those relays also control signals and "lockouts".
i asked about that "vertical" trackage where the mainlines merged. perhaps just focusing on explaining what you plan to do for that "vertical" trackage would be enough to conclude this discussion
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sorry I did not have a bunch of digital ready drawings and examples ready in advance. I have pages, pages of hand drawn sketches that I can read fine, but they are not fully labeled, and not neat, and not in digital form. ?? i'd really like to understanding how your stuff works. based on the "wye" example, i thought your approach partially supported route selection but i'm concluding that each button primarily controls a single turnout but can disable others. With block detection, those relays also control signals and "lockouts". i asked about that "vertical" trackage where the mainlines merged. perhaps just focusing on explaining what you plan to do for that "vertical" trackage would be enough to conclude this discussion
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sorry I did not have a bunch of digital ready drawings and examples ready in advance. I have pages, pages of hand drawn sketches that I can read fine, but they are not fully labeled, and not neat, and not in digital form.
Two or more turnouts is my definition of a "route".
My 10 track staging yard will require only one button to select and power a track, aligning as many as 4-5 turnouts as well as connecting cab power to just that track.
Yes, the wye, two following crossovers, the double track junction are relatively simple examples.
In some cases on the track plan two of the above "simple" features are intergrated into one interlocking and still only require one or two buttons to be pushed.
As for the big interlocking you keep refering to, I simply am not done designing it.
But to first explain it a bit might be helpful. Looking at it from the aisle, yes there are five parellel tracks.
The track closest to you is not a mainline, it is not signaled, it is the lead into the the main yard and connects to an industrial area. Trains leave and enter the mainline to/from the yard at the crossover to lower right at the beginning of the curve.
The upper two tracks farthest from you lead off stage to staging on the left, and to the passenger terminal on the right.
The middle two tracks are the primary mainline.
I am still considering what will be the best user interface. If I program more complex routes, how will I convey that to the operators? Where will the buttons be located? Etc. Will two or three sub sections be easier to understand with little or no increase in the "average" number of buttons pushed to establish a given route.
Pushing two buttons that each set a specific route half way thru the interlcoking is no different than pushing two that establish the very beginning and very end.
Several conditions have already been decided.
A single button will restore the whole interlocking to the default postions. I think no matter how the various diverging routes are structured, this feature alone will be an major convenience and simplification in operating this interlocking.
As elsewhere, routes with no logical purpose will be prevented.
The slip switches present the biggest questions, I have seen them done lots of different ways. I'm open to ideas.
Generally, it has been my goal to have the lighted pushbuttons in the track diagram and have them effectively light up the selected route.
That does a not mean they all have to be pushed to light up, and in somes cases just a light may be used to clarify the route.
You don't seem to see the value in returning turnouts to their default positions but a great many layouts I have seen would simply have two following crossovers wired separately from each other, or have a separate control for each turnout on a wye, etc. However simple, they streamline operator tasks.
The pushbuttons and the relays are the key to having multiple points of operation for the same devices, other than using some sort of processor based system. Using the relay coil circuit as the indicator light circuit is what allows the multiple cab selector button locations and the local and CTC turnout control buttons to only require one wire each to both activate and indicate from those mutliple locations.
Your thoughts on the slip switches would be of interest.
Greg,
I think another area where we might not really be communicating is about "syle" of operation.
What do operators "expect" as they walk around a layout with a wireless throttle? What do they want to do or not do? How easy is it for them to understand controls they encounter? What do they need to know?
Some people hate control panels at all, others love them. Some are happly with small, bearly described switches or buttons on the layout fascia, others have a hard time with that?
I like maps, I like the "east" is always right, "west" is always left convention. I like the option of continous or display running.
I know from the small part of my last layout that was operational, and from my friends layout where I installed a single track mainline version of my control system, that most operators found both easy to understand and operate.
I would be interested in your thoughts on how a layout "should" operate?
I know you are involved with the club out there, and with previous clubs/large group operations.
Have you seen the latest issue of MR? The featured layout is "old school", no foam scenery base, code 100 track, and DC control.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would be interested in your thoughts on how a layout "should" operate?
i didn't think there was one right way
i think some operators need things to be as simple as possible, others are into micro-operation and want it to be a realistic as possible
at the local club which just runs trains around loops for shows, there are no panels. turnouts and short routes (e.g. yard tracks) are selected by throttle. i've heard member say they need a dispatcher
at the club in NJ, there was a dispatcher and 3 tower operators that aligned routes. a way freight operator wfould use a panel but the dispatcher must give the panel authority to operate mainline switches
on the layout with the 75 route panel i developed, there is another similar panel on the east side of the passenger station with the expectation that there are tower operators for each during a session. the yard has toggle switches for each turnout used by the yard switchers and similar panels for two staging loops.
a local member who also operates up near Boston said they have a dispatcher during op sessions, but velcro attached signs describing route #s when operated not during op sessions
for my small layout, i expect to use ground throws or switch motors for harder to reach turnouts
i still don't know how you operated layouts in the past or expect to do so with your new layout. i explained what i "concluded". about how i think your stuff works, that a button "throws" a single or could throw multiple turnouts and may un-throw others. (i don't know if this is correct)
i'll guess that your approach may not be able to select any possible route from any existing routing without having a "default position". I do see the "need" for it, if this is true. i've not seen the need for it on the layouts i described above nor for the New Haven Interlock i described earlier.
have you ever used diodes in series with your buttons to "throw" multiple turnout (relays), which when starting from a default position", should be able to establish any route with a single button
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would be interested in your thoughts on how a layout "should" operate? i didn't think there was one right way i think some operators need things to be as simple as possible, others are into micro-operation and want it to be a realistic as possible at the local club which just runs trains around loops for shows, there are no panels. turnouts and short routes (e.g. yard tracks) are selected by throttle. i've heard member say they need a dispatcher at the club in NJ, there was a dispatcher and 3 tower operators that aligned routes. a way freight operator wfould use a panel but the dispatcher must give the panel authority to operate mainline switches on the layout with the 75 route panel i developed, there is another similar panel on the east side of the passenger station with the expectation that there are tower operators for each during a session. the yard has toggle switches for each turnout used by the yard switchers and similar panels for two staging loops. a local member who also operates up near Boston said they have a dispatcher during op sessions, but velcro attached signs describing route #s when operated not during op sessions for my small layout, i expect to use ground throws or switch motors for harder to reach turnouts i still don't know how you operated layouts in the past or expect to do so with your new layout. i explained what i "concluded". about how i think your stuff works, that a button "throws" a single or could throw multiple turnouts and may un-throw others. (i don't know if this is correct) i'll guess that your approach may not be able to select any possible route from any existing routing without having a "default position". I do see the "need" for it, if this is true. i've not seen the need for it on the layouts i described above nor for the New Haven Interlock i described earlier. have you ever used diodes in series with your buttons to "throw" multiple turnout (relays), which when starting from a default position", should be able to establish any route with a single button
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would be interested in your thoughts on how a layout "should" operate?
Agreed no one right way.
OK, I'm not good at this multi quote thing, so I will try to address each point.
My operational plan is not just one approach. It is having the option of three different approaches.
Option #1 - dispatcher on duty, yardmaster on duty.
Mainline train operators will bring trains out of staging and travel around the mainline, possibly terminating, or doing a power change, or car block swap, at the main yard.
While on the mainline under CTC control, they will not have to perform any actions at the tower panels. The dispatcher will set routes, hold trains at absolute signals, and clear routes as necessary to direct traffic.
The dispatchers panel will actually support two people working together in that task.
Only the mainline, passenger terminal, hidden staging and a few hard to reach industrial turnouts will be switch machine controlled.
Yard and industrial tracks are generally close to the layout edge and will be ground throws. That is a whole thing we have not even talked about.
The mainline will easily support two west bound trains and two east bound trains all at the same time.
Yard switching, passenger terminal switching, industrial area switching are generally off the mainline and can be performed by other operators while mainline trains are running - except for the obvious coordination of trains entering or leaving the passenger terminal and main yard.
Option #2 - no dispatcher, possibly no yardmaster.
Those same four mainline trains can proceed around the layout, two east, two west, with the operators acting as their own tower operators at each interlocking panel.
They will have to verify and possibly align their route, and assign the next block they will enter to their throttle. These two actions will typically require pushing from one to three buttons depending on their choices and the location. The big interlocking may require more attention for the most complex moves.
And again, other activity off the mainline can proceed in the yard and industrial areas.
Option #3 - Display running.
There are two double track "cutoff routes" that convert the continuous double track mainline into four separate display loops that do not conflict with each other. Four trains can simply go around and around forever. Visually two of the trains cover one half of the layout, and the other two cover the other half with some visual overlap in the yard/passenger terminal area.
And again, while those trains run with minimal attention and no "input changes" needed while they run, yard and industrial switching work can be done.
I still don't think you fully understand the control panels or the turnout controls.
I posted this drawing earlier in the thread. Let's assume this is one of my panels.
There is no dispatcher on duty. You are on the lower track, moving left to right (that would be east bound). You approach this panel, your signal is red over red, you stop.
You want to proceed straight, the occupancy indicator in the next block is lit, and the cab selection buttons to the lower right for the block you wish to enter have cab B lit. You are using cab A.
The turnout indicator for the crossover to the right is lit, indicating that the train in front of you just crossed over from the other track.
You wait fo the occupancy detector in the next block to go dark. You push the button to align the crossover back to the mainline. You push the button to assign the block to your cab, it switches from B to A. You know the other train is no longer in the block because the occupancy lite went dark.
At this point your signal will change from red over red, to green over red and you are clear to proceed.
You watched a few lights and pushed two buttons.
That panel will let you activate any route shown by pushing one button. There are more than three buttons but there are only three routes. To crossover, push the button in the crossover. To go straight, push any one of the three buttons on the main routes.
If you select a crossover, the other crossover will go straight if it was previously the last route selected. Only one of the two crossovers can be selected at a time.
The dispatchers panel is nothing more than copies of all the tower panels strung together in one big track plan of the layout. The buttons and lights look exactly the same for the visable part of the layout.
Sorry for the long explaination, hope it made sense.
OK, other answers.
Yes I have used diode matrix control before.
I hope it is clear now that the turnout controls do not need to start from the default position. They just start at the default when the layout is powered up.
Yes, a button energizes a relay and de-energizes other relays in the circuit. But that may be various multiple combinations of different turnouts that move in different directions.
Just like the wye, a single button does not just throw one turnout. It sets all three turnouts to a specific combination of positons. The next button on the next leg of the wye sets them to a different combination, and so on.
The problem with the large interlocking is not the relay logic, it is having a user interface that makes sense to the humans.
Pushing a few more buttons may actually be easier than implimenting a "special" user interface that is different from all the other panels.
Update:
Some may recall from a few pages ago that I was having some issues with dcc operation on my layout. I was subsequently able to locate one area where the track was not glued down such that I could add a couple more feeder wires, and it happened to be within a portion of the mainline where I knew there was at least some voltage drop. I was able to get two pairs of Kato feeder wires (Kato track is on whole layout). Some ebay sellers are actually asking $175 for this typically $5 Kato part, but I was able to get them for the $5/pair plus nominal shipping.
Once I added just the two pairs of feeder wires, the modest voltage drop in plain dc operation is basically eliminated.
NCE officially says that Kato Unitrack, and most especially, Kato feeder wires, should not be used at all for dcc operation. However, with just the two extra feeder wires, the dcc operation actually improved notably. NCE is just not very accurate with their statement that Kato HO Unitrack is junk. My spacing between feeder wires is now, on average, 16 feet. At the time I built the layout, dcc was in its infancy, and that why there are so relatively few feeders. We are planning to move in a couple years, so I'll build a new layout in whatever place we end up but won't be rebuilding this one to NCE's specifications.
So previously, in dcc operation, our locos were only able to call for up to 0.80 amps maximum. That was enough for typically two current production HO diesels with sound and lights with one long freight train.
Now, with just the two additional feeder wires, improving the average spacing between feeders to about 16 linear feet (81' total length mainline +/-) we were actually able to operate 4 locos in dcc, with a modest train for us of about 25 cars, and instead of the previous 0.8 amp maximum, the locos can now call for 1.25 amps maximum total combined and can remain running reliably without stalling.
It appears that my son will now actually be able to run his 50 and 60 car trains in dcc mode with just 3 stronger powered units.
As a minimum, we have proven that Kato track, at least when most of it is glued to non-movement of track joints, can be suitable for dcc operation as long as it is not too many diesels running at the same time.
Also we were experiencing some motor failures with even brand new units, even one replacement of a brand new unit. I'm happy to report that the manufacturer in this instance bent over backwards to help us out even to the point of overnight delivery of a brand new replacement unit. Along with that new unit, we received one back after its second motor replacement (under warranty, in two months). Now all three recent brand new or remotored units appear to be operating just fine, like the 4th and 5th units we already had on hand. In the one that just arrived yesterday, 7/28, they also installed a new circuit board along with the new motor. So some brand new units--I do not know what percentage--are still failing, and the manufacturer is working on the solution. I don't think I should call them out here. They've been more than kind and went the extra mile to make my son happy with his 5 locos. If you have a problem, contact the manufacturer directly. Many/most of them will go to great lengths to make you happy.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes I have used diode matrix control before.
ok, you've used them, but have you considered their use today.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou don't seem to see the value in returning turnouts to their default positions
ATLANTIC CENTRALI hope it is clear now that the turnout controls do not need to start from the default position. They just start at the default when the layout is powered up.
not at all clear. earlier you said "returning turnouts to their default positions". now you say just at start up. i'm still struggling to understand what you do
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes, a button energizes a relay and de-energizes other relays in the circuit. But that may be various multiple combinations of different turnouts that move in different directions.
yes, and for some simple cases, wye and left/right crossovers, that circuitry works to allow a single button to select a route, because just a single relay needs to be energized to throw one or a pair (crossover) turnouts and un-throw one or more others
but it seems that approach won't work in more complex situations
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe problem with the large interlocking is not the relay logic, it is having a user interface that makes sense to the humans
of course you want to make it easier and intuitive for the operator. but the technology limits what that interface can be.
Armstrong lever and USS switch technology required operators to set things correctly. the interlocking mechanism prevented mistakes.
the interface for the panel i described is pretty straight forward. it's the same decades old user interface as the diode matrix panels but uses modern tech
ATLANTIC CENTRALPushing a few more buttons may actually be easier than implimenting a "special" user interface that is different from all the other panels.
avoiding different interfaces is a poor reason not to use a better interface when needed. i think we're talking about 2 or 3 different interfaces:
if a single button swtiches just a single or pair of turnouts, then more complex trackage requires throwing multiple turnouts.
for the more complex trackage case, do you really need turnout buttons if there are route buttons for all turnouts or just a few (that "lead" into the mainline)
the diode matrix approach can be used to reduce the # of route buttons by using pairs of buttons, with limitations (interior routes). left side buttons supply power to the relay, right side buttons ground the relay.
10796
OK Greg,
Regarding the big interlocking only.
No matter what interface I ultimately settle on, I do think in that one case there is value in a "special" button that returns it to the default position. But if it took three buttons to set a route, it would only take three buttons to set it back, or maybe only one button for the next configuration.
I have not ruled out a different interface, but it has to be something that can easily have duplicate controls on the CTC panel.
I would prefer it be similar to the other panels, not a complete departure.
Again the slip switches present the biggest challenge.
All the other interlockings on the layout are stuff I already have done before, I just need to make complete specific drawings for them.
I simply have not had much time to spend on the big one. I have a set of preliminary sketches for both the panel and some circuits but it is far from worked out to my satisfaction yet.
Now a few thoughts in general that I thought I was clear on before.
I said it was important and desired for the turnouts to be in their default settings at startup, when the layout is turned on. To me this is just common sense?
The cab controls do the same thing, a cab or two or eight might have still been selected when you shut down the layout, but when you start up they are all disconnected.
Diode matrix or relay chain, or a mix of the two, I can write more complex routes than just two or three choices. I simply need to decide how to express them to the operators.
Pick a number, 8? I can link two throttle boards together, have eight distinct routes, using the same 13 or 15 turnouts, and only push one button to select them. not a problem - a good number of relays, but not a problem. defining them quickly and easily for the operator is what I'm not settled on.
Something I simply have not had much time to work on.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have not ruled out a different interface, but it has to be something that can easily have duplicate controls on the CTC panel.
my understanding of CTC is that it simply control turnouts. there are no route selection buttons. nothing like the diode matrix approach for route selection which is non-prototypical but an intuitive interface.
i don't see any reason why the panel can't have buttons for route selection, but the CTC panel just control individual relays
ATLANTIC CENTRALI am still considering what will be the best user interface.
a CTC approach does not seem like the "best user interface"
someone didn't think there's this diode matrix thing and wonder if it could be used in model RRing. someone thought about a better interface by pressing pairs of buttons to select a route and figured out how to do it with diodes
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have not ruled out a different interface, but it has to be something that can easily have duplicate controls on the CTC panel. my understanding of CTC is that it simply control turnouts. there are no route selection buttons. nothing like the diode matrix approach for route selection which is non-prototypical but an intuitive interface. i don't see any reason why the panel can't have buttons for route selection, but the CTC panel just control individual relays ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am still considering what will be the best user interface. a CTC approach does not seem like the "best user interface" someone didn't think there's this diode matrix thing and wonder if it could be used in model RRing. someone thought about a better interface by pressing pairs of buttons to select a route and figured out how to do it with diodes
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have not ruled out a different interface, but it has to be something that can easily have duplicate controls on the CTC panel.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am still considering what will be the best user interface.
You have too rigid a view of what the CTC user interface is.
My goal is not to create the user interface experiance of a real CTC dispatcher. I have no interest in making any gob on the layout as complex as it is in real life.
It is to control the trains in a CTC like manner with a simplified user interface while providing for the needs of the control system in place.