NewtonNorthwestern Hopefully Walthers will acquire the Scalecoat line from the owner. There seem to be some rumblings to that effect.
Hopefully Walthers will acquire the Scalecoat line from the owner. There seem to be some rumblings to that effect.
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Walthers could just as easily start their own paint line.
I hope they do exactly that.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Well, there would be several advantages for both Walthers and us modelers if Walthers took over Scalecoat and kept it the same.
One, they have deep enough pockets and proper connections.
Two, loyal Scalecoat users would buy the product right away, it would take time for a new line of paint to catch on.
Rick, you can complain about Walthers all you want, and I think you have before, but your point is not well founded. If you could see a list of what IS in stock, its pretty good for an industry that has ALWAYS been based on batch production and depended on distributors and retailers to keep product in stock between production runs.
The unwillingness or inability of companies in this business to keep things in stock is a direct result of prices getting too low in relation to "cost to produce" or "cost to buy wholesale".
Retail businesses need either higher margins or high rates of turnover.
If you want them to have that oddball piece when you get in the mood to buy it, you have to pay a little more to make it worth their while to tie up that money in inventory.
Oh, that's right, we use to have local hobby shops willing to do that.......
Sheldon
dti406 NewtonNorthwestern Hopefully Walthers will acquire the Scalecoat line from the owner. There seem to be some rumblings to that effect. Walthers is the last company I want to acquire Scalecoat, because if they do the paint will never be in stock like many of their parts.
Walthers would be the perfect firm to acquire Scalecoat. Walthers has the deep pockets to manufacture the entire line of paints for distribution to its retailers. The fact that Walthers might never have any Scalecoat in stock is no more of a concern than any other Walthers product, most of which is usually out of stock. The key point is that its retailers will have the product in stock. That's what really matters.
Rich
Alton Junction
As far as the concern that if Walthers acquired the Scalecoat line the paint would never be in stock ... that's a perennial complaint. I remember going to the LHS when I was 14 and hearing the owner complain about that. That was a few years ago ... I'm a few weeks short of 80.
On that topic, though ... yes, sometimes what I want is out of stock ... but more often I can get what I need and what is back ordered comes soon after.
billslake As far as the concern that if Walthers acquired the Scalecoat line the paint would never be in stock ... that's a perennial complaint. I remember going to the LHS when I was 14 and hearing the owner complain about that. That was a few years ago ... I'm a few weeks short of 80. On that topic, though ... yes, sometimes what I want is out of stock ... but more often I can get what I need and what is back ordered comes soon after.
I didn’t think it was Dupont in a friend of mine who was also Carpainter thought it was PPG. At least the pigment was from them the vehicle may be modified. The point is is that there is only so many companies that micro ground pigments. A local company About 5 miles away used to take iron from slag grind it up and make those flexible refrigerator magnets out of it. When that type of material was coming in from the Pacific rim much cheaper than they could make it they simply closed up the business but left the Grinders. Pfizer went in cleaned everything up to a medical state of cleanliness and is currently grinding ingredients for pills. One of the employees out there is a model railroader and he said boy if I could have one of these in my garage I can have a paint Business! I don’t think he’d make any money.
Something to ponder.......
If, somehow, Walthers does acquire Scalecoat..........would managment be willing to continue producing the solvent-based mixes that long-time users are familiar with?
Politically, paint manufacturers are contuing to be pressured to focus production on waterborne / waterbased formulas. A number of industrial coatings manufacturers have changed (weakend) the formulations on their solvent based lines to be more "environmentally friendlier".
I agree that SCI & II are basically modified automotive paint mixes. PPG, Axalta (formerly DuPont), and Sherwin-Williams, fortunately, are continuing to manufacture solvent based formulas (including their low VOC lines) as well as waterborne/waterbased products.
It's nice to still have choices. But I'm wondering if Walthers (or whoever "might" acquire Scalecoat) would shy away from solvent based lines altogether and focus on taking the "water route".
For the record, I use both types of paint products and am not bashing water products, but I've been observing which way the economic/political winds are blowing and am hoping solvent based formulas will be around for a while to come.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 Something to ponder....... If, somehow, Walthers does acquire Scalecoat..........would managment be willing to continue producing the solvent-based mixes that long-time users are familiar with? Politically, paint manufacturers are contuing to be pressured to focus production on waterborne / waterbased formulas. A number of industrial coatings manufacturers have changed (weakend) the formulations on their solvent based lines to be more "environmentally friendlier". I agree that SCI & II are basically modified automotive paint mixes. PPG, Axalta (formerly DuPont), and Sherwin-Williams, fortunately, are continuing to manufacture solvent based formulas (including their low VOC lines) as well as waterborne/waterbased products. It's nice to still have choices. But I'm wondering if Walthers (or whoever "might" acquire Scalecoat) would shy away from solvent based lines altogether and focus on taking the "water route". For the record, I use both types of paint products and am not bashing water products, but I've been observing which way the economic/political winds are blowing and am hoping solvent based formulas will be around for a while to come.
There is certainly a lot of truth to the pressure to remove solvent paints. I really like their coverage though much better than acrylics. I have however found one exception to this Tamiya acrylics. I absolutely love their coverage and have almost standardized on their hull red as my boxcar red. They can be easily brushed as well and level excellently with no brush strokes. I have noticed that they do have a different odor than other acrylics always kind of wondered what was different about that.
Jim
Buying Scalecoat and converting it to acrylic would make no sense. First, that is not likely to attract many of the old Scalecoat users. I know I would not be inclined to buy it.
If you are going to do that, than just start a new paint line.
BUT, there might be some logic in buying Scalecoat, getting it up and running with the original formulas, someone with good backing and distribution could easily reclaim and dominate the solvent model paint business.
THEN, you could add a line of acrylics, color matched to the existing two lines. That would be a strong marketing position given the so-so availability of railroad colors at present.
Totally agree Sheldon,
I hope that Walthers or another reputable company will acquire Scalecoat and would be willing (or able) to keep the original formulas. I'm a fan of Scalecoat paint products but am trying to think realistically.
I don't reveal too much about my personal life but can say that I am still involved in the automotive field.
My reliable sources tell me that automotive, industrial, and even hobby paint manufacturers in North America are being pressured to continue moving towards waterbased / waterborne formulas, (except in California where regulations are even more draconian and solvent based formulas, with few exceptions, have been eliminated) and reduce toxins and hazmat impact to the environment.
Currently manufacturers of solvent based coating products are being required to make their mixes more "environmentally friendly" (which often results in either increasing the cost of the final product to make it as or more durable as the original formula OR the customer simply winds up with a less durable product). PPG's waterbased automotive paints are a success story as the product is durable and environmentally safer, but the price tags of their mid and high level performance products, sadly, give small body shops sticker shock. Several shop owners I know are sticking with solvent based products as long as they can due to the price differences.
Overall, this is part of the reason wny I'm skeptical about Walthers acquring Scalecoat (although I'd be happy if it did happen) and if it did so, hopefully the regulations in the state that the paint is produced in would enable the original solvent based mixes to continue to be made and sold.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Buying Scalecoat and converting it to acrylic would make no sense. First, that is not likely to attract many of the old Scalecoat users. I know I would not be inclined to buy it. If you are going to do that, than just start a new paint line. BUT, there might be some logic in buying Scalecoat, getting it up and running with the original formulas, someone with good backing and distribution could easily reclaim and dominate the solvent model paint business. THEN, you could add a line of acrylics, color matched to the existing two lines. That would be a strong marketing position given the so-so availability of railroad colors at present. Sheldon
Scalecoat had a lot going for it. Can't think of a hobby paint that took decals better, for one thing.
Can't remember who asked, but for Amtrak Phase V, the blue you probably want is called Amtrak Blue 302, and you can make yourself a swatch to color match using 100C 26M 0Y or 0R 83G 126B (depending on the program you're using).
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
MidlandPacificCan't think of a hobby paint that took decals better, for one thing.
Same here. If you are applying decals, Scalecoat was the best.
I have a couple of bottles of Future stashed away. It looks like I will be using that method more often now.
Sheldon, I agree with you 100%, I have not liked acrylics and True Color was almost as bad in trying to airbrush. I also don't like the plastic bottles, as plastic breathes and the paint does not last.
Rick Jesionowski
The acrylics that are the biggest headache for me are Modelflex paints. Instead of thin smooth coats, the only way I can get them on is to do about a dozen dust coatings. Any heavier than a light dusting, and the paint beads up like water on a Rain-X'd windshield no matter how well I've prepared the surface. I'm hoping Tru Color treats me better.
_________________________________________________________________
News flash from facebook today, apparently a father and son team have aquired Scalecoat and will be putting it back on the market as soon as possible.
Aaron and AJ Mansur posted pictures of Scalecoat products with this annoucement posted in the Freelance Model Railroads group.
I saved the post so I can keep tabs.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL News flash from facebook today, apparently a father and son team have aquired Scalecoat and will be putting it back on the market as soon as possible. Aaron and AJ Mansur posted pictures of Scalecoat products with this annoucement posted in the Freelance Model Railroads group. I saved the post so I can keep tabs. Sheldon
MidlandPacificCan't remember who asked, but for Amtrak Phase V, the blue you probably want is called Amtrak Blue 302, and you can make yourself a swatch to color match using 100C 26M 0Y or 0R 83G 126B (depending on the program you're using).
I'm happy for those who enjoy Scalecoat Paints that it looks like they will be around.
I don't know much about hobby paints, but your post struck a nerve about something that I never understood about hobby paints.....which is basically the need for the "correct" color.
The paint is the color it is. All equipment painted with it turns out the same color. I assume the hobby paint color is deemed "correct" if it matches a swatch...which is the "as built" freshly painted equipment color.
How do you represent the color of the other 95% of your layout's equipment that bear's the same roadname? Because trains are comprised of equipment anywhere from 1 day old to 40 years old...or maybe 10 to 15 year old repaints...but the prototype gets repaints not exactly of the same color or shade as the paint job they applied 15 years ago.
You blend the correct color with others to mimic the shade of a years old paint job? So you don't really have to start off with the correct color since its not going to end up being the correct color anyway?
- Douglas
Doughless MidlandPacific Can't remember who asked, but for Amtrak Phase V, the blue you probably want is called Amtrak Blue 302, and you can make yourself a swatch to color match using 100C 26M 0Y or 0R 83G 126B (depending on the program you're using). I'm happy for those who enjoy Scalecoat Paints that it looks like they will be around. I don't know much about hobby paints, but your post struck a nerve about something that I never understood about hobby paints.....which is basically the need for the "correct" color. The paint is the color it is. All equipment painted with it turns out the same color. I assume the hobby paint color is deemed "correct" if it matches a swatch...which is the "as built" freshly painted equipment color. How do you represent the color of the other 95% of your layout's equipment that bear's the same roadname? Because trains are comprised of equipment anywhere from 1 day old to 40 years old...or maybe 10 to 15 year old repaints...but the prototype gets repaints not exactly of the same color or shade as the paint job they applied 15 years ago. You blend the correct color with others to mimic the shade of a years old paint job? So you don't really have to start off with the correct color since its not going to end up being the correct color anyway?
MidlandPacific Can't remember who asked, but for Amtrak Phase V, the blue you probably want is called Amtrak Blue 302, and you can make yourself a swatch to color match using 100C 26M 0Y or 0R 83G 126B (depending on the program you're using).
Well, there is more than one "issue" in your comment.
First, I model 1954, a time when railroads were rebuilding and replacing after WWII, and lots of stuff was "new".
If I paint a set of passenger cars for my freelance railroads top name train, or the B&O and C&O which I also model, I want them to be the correct color and have each car be the same color, even if that color is just "what I picked" for my freelanced railroad.
So changing paint brands is a BIG problem to me.
BUT the other issue with Scalecoat is not about colors. It is about the type of paint, its application features and its durabilty.
Scalecoat is a solvent based fine pigment gloss paint. So you get a just painted gloss finish in one step, which is preffered for appling decals.
THEN, most of us seasoned model builders who use Scalecoat apply a clear top coat which can be flat, matte, semi gloss or gloss simply by mixing clear flat and clear gloss in different proportions.
This will sometimes result is sligtly different final colors - giving an aged look of slight variation like you might fine in real life.
And then there is weathering.........
I prefer "light weathering" on most of my models, and "VERY light weathering" on passenger equipment.
So the fact that I can do all this with a minimum number of coats of paint/clear is a big plus over other products.
AND, honestly, I have yet to master the art of using water based paint in an airbrush. The crap always dries in the airbrush before I am done.
SO, as long as I can buy solvent based enamel or lacquer paints like Scalecoat, I will.
Any many of these replacement products come in such ridiculously small containers........
And yes I like my C&O blue and yellow, and my B&O blue and gray to at least start out reasonably correct, then decide how much they need to be "weathered".
But in general, I don't model a "rusty, junky" era like the 1970's. One of the reasons I have no interest in "the trains of my youth".
Others needs and goals wil be different.
Great, thanks for the update!
Doughless, the paints are mixed to represent the railroad colors fresh from the shop, but someone experienced with weathering may add a touch of another color to make it look worn or faded. Mixing accurate railroad colors yourself is a lot more challenging than buying the ready made colors. For instance, when I painted my British Rail Deltic, I couldn't get paint from the UK and had to try and mix it myself. It turned out well I think, but the problem now is that if I need to touch up a spot, matching that paint again is going to be extremely difficult.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless MidlandPacific Can't remember who asked, but for Amtrak Phase V, the blue you probably want is called Amtrak Blue 302, and you can make yourself a swatch to color match using 100C 26M 0Y or 0R 83G 126B (depending on the program you're using). I'm happy for those who enjoy Scalecoat Paints that it looks like they will be around. I don't know much about hobby paints, but your post struck a nerve about something that I never understood about hobby paints.....which is basically the need for the "correct" color. The paint is the color it is. All equipment painted with it turns out the same color. I assume the hobby paint color is deemed "correct" if it matches a swatch...which is the "as built" freshly painted equipment color. How do you represent the color of the other 95% of your layout's equipment that bear's the same roadname? Because trains are comprised of equipment anywhere from 1 day old to 40 years old...or maybe 10 to 15 year old repaints...but the prototype gets repaints not exactly of the same color or shade as the paint job they applied 15 years ago. You blend the correct color with others to mimic the shade of a years old paint job? So you don't really have to start off with the correct color since its not going to end up being the correct color anyway? Well, there is more than one "issue" in your comment. First, I model 1954, a time when railroads were rebuilding and replacing after WWII, and lots of stuff was "new". If I paint a set of passenger cars for my freelance railroads top name train, or the B&O and C&O which I also model, I want them to be the correct color and have each car be the same color, even if that color is just "what I picked" for my freelanced railroad. So changing paint brands is a BIG problem to me. BUT the other issue with Scalecoat is not about colors. It is about the type of paint, its application features and its durabilty. Scalecoat is a solvent based fine pigment gloss paint. So you get a just painted gloss finish in one step, which is preffered for appling decals. THEN, most of us seasoned model builders who use Scalecoat apply a clear top coat which can be flat, matte, semi gloss or gloss simply by mixing clear flat and clear gloss in different proportions. This will sometimes result is sligtly different final colors - giving an aged look of slight variation like you might fine in real life. And then there is weathering......... I prefer "light weathering" on most of my models, and "VERY light weathering" on passenger equipment. So the fact that I can do all this with a minimum number of coats of paint/clear is a big plus over other products. AND, honestly, I have yet to master the art of using water based paint in an airbrush. The crap always dries in the airbrush before I am done. SO, as long as I can buy solvent based enamel or lacquer paints like Scalecoat, I will. Any many of these replacement products come in such ridiculously small containers........ And yes I like my C&O blue and yellow, and my B&O blue and gray to at least start out reasonably correct, then decide how much they need to be "weathered". But in general, I don't model a "rusty, junky" era like the 1970's. One of the reasons I have no interest in "the trains of my youth". Others needs and goals wil be different. Sheldon
I understand paint quality, and yes in my limited experience hobby paints....and not just railroad color paints...are better quality in terms of pigmentation and flow. And other factors you mention.
Its the statements over the years by many about colors not being correct. Correct for what, fresh out of the paint shop or 10 years running the rails?
Paint fades. The greens, blues, reds etc that are mixed into a railroad's color blend fade at different rates, so a blue color that comes fresh out of the paint shop might actually bend more greenish 10 years later. Not weathered with rust, but relatively clean as a whistle, but the paint fades like a well maintained old Buick. I doubt that railroads buffed out their freight cars, even back in the proud days.
Buying a military paint might be a closer color than the railroad correct Scalecoat color for most of the equipment on the layout.
IMO, choices we make also defines what the "correct" paint color is more than a factory correct swatch.
Darth Santa Fe Great, thanks for the update! Doughless, the paints are mixed to represent the railroad colors fresh from the shop, but someone experienced with weathering may add a touch of another color to make it look worn or faded. Mixing accurate railroad colors yourself is a lot more challenging than buying the ready made colors. For instance, when I painted my British Rail Deltic, I couldn't get paint from the UK and had to try and mix it myself. It turned out well I think, but the problem now is that if I need to touch up a spot, matching that paint again is going to be extremely difficult.
Most of my experience with painting is weathering. I mix up colors as I weather, and add a dab more of this or that as I go. Buying "rail brown" or "rust" seems uneccessary, if not confining and uniform.
Doughless I understand paint quality, and yes in my limited experience hobby paints....and not just railroad color paints...are better quality in terms of pigmentation and flow. And other factors you mention. Its the statements over the years by many about colors not being correct. Correct for what, fresh out of the paint shop or 10 years running the rails? Paint fades. The greens, blues, reds etc that are mixed into a railroad's color blend fade at different rates, so a blue color that comes fresh out of the paint shop might actually bend more greenish 10 years later. Not weathered with rust, but relatively clean as a whistle, but the paint fades like a well maintained old Buick. I doubt that railroads buffed out their freight cars, even back in the proud days. Buying a military paint might be a closer color than the railroad correct Scalecoat color for most of the equipment on the layout. IMO, choices we make also defines what the "correct" paint color is more than a factory correct swatch.
I get your point, you don't seem to get mine. Military colors - they generally come flat, I need gloss to make decal films disapear, I don't want an extra step or an unnecessary additional coat of paint.
Yes, correct fresh from the shop. Because I would rather start there and decide if or how much I want to weather it.
AND, I want to buy paint that is the same color from bottle to bottle to paint and decal dozens of passenger cars and locomotives - again - and then decide if some should be weathered differently than others.
In the more prosperous times in railroading, equipment like passenger cars and passenger engines were often kept clean and in very good condition. Some of us want to model that.
I'm painting a whole fleet, not just a car or two here and there. I have hundreds of painted and decaled pieces of equipment. I still have hundreds more I want to do.
I do most of my weathering with an air brush, just to add some dirt, dust, etc.
I have done some research in to color photos from the 50's, and be it trains or other things, you can find every bit as much "fresh, clean and new" as you can find old and beat up.
When I paint the next two sets I recently found, I want them to match pretty close. They pull my premier passenger trains.
And they need to match these pretty close as well. Not just these two, but about 18 more.
DoughlessIts the statements over the years by many about colors not being correct. Correct for what, fresh out of the paint shop or 10 years running the rails?
As I have said before... if historical military modelers will never agree about what colour "Panzer Yellow" is, there is no hope for conensus among model railroaders.
I always will agree that "close enough" is 100% correct in many situations.
richhotrainIf true, that is great news!
Buy your lifetime supply now!
SeeYou190 richhotrain If true, that is great news! -Kevin
richhotrain If true, that is great news!
SeeYou190 Doughless Its the statements over the years by many about colors not being correct. Correct for what, fresh out of the paint shop or 10 years running the rails? As I have said before... if historical military modelers will never agree about what colour "Panzer Yellow" is, there is no hope for conensus among model railroaders. I always will agree that "close enough" is 100% correct in many situations. -Kevin
Doughless Its the statements over the years by many about colors not being correct. Correct for what, fresh out of the paint shop or 10 years running the rails?
I agree, and I will repeat my concern again, which Douglas seems to just dismiss.
I do want something reasonably close to those proptotype colors, but more importantly I want to buy that color over and over and have it be the same.
Not jumping from brand to brand, not mixing colors, not having to use flat paint and doing some extra step for decals, and not having to use water based paints.
SeeYou190 richhotrain If true, that is great news! Buy your lifetime supply now! -Kevin
No question, I too will stock up.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI get your point, you don't seem to get mine. Military colors - they generally come flat, I need gloss to make decal films disapear, I don't want an extra step or an unnecessary additional coat of paint. Yes, correct fresh from the shop. Because I would rather start there and decide if or how much I want to weather it. AND, I want to buy paint that is the same color from bottle to bottle to paint and decal dozens of passenger cars and locomotives - again - and then decide if some should be weathered differently than others. In the more prosperous times in railroading, equipment like passenger cars and passenger engines were often kept clean and in very good condition. Some of us want to model that. I'm painting a whole fleet, not just a car or two here and there. I have hundreds of painted and decaled pieces of equipment. I still have hundreds more I want to do. I do most of my weathering with an air brush, just to add some dirt, dust, etc. I have done some research in to color photos from the 50's, and be it trains or other things, you can find every bit as much "fresh, clean and new" as you can find old and beat up. When I paint the next two sets I recently found, I want them to match pretty close. They pull my premier passenger trains.
NVM
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I agree, and I will repeat my concern again, which Douglas seems to just dismiss. I do want something reasonably close to those proptotype colors, but more importantly I want to buy that color over and over and have it be the same. Not jumping from brand to brand, not mixing colors, not having to use flat paint and doing some extra step for decals, and not having to use water based paints. Sheldon
I get your point. Start with the correct as-built color as a base to then formulate a correct age paint color instead of finding another paint brand that might have the correct aged paint color already formulated.
In these discussions of paints over the years, you are the first person to suggest that you actually add different colors to your railroad color paint to get a slightly different color to represent aged color.
Most of the discussions I've read start by getting all fussy over the "correct" glossy color, then decaling, then weathering, then dullcoating. I've never read anybody explain how they go about changing the correct color hobby paint to make it the correct color to represent aged color for about 85% of the (freight) rolling stock that would need it.