ATLANTIC CENTRAL As we have discussed before, "superior model" is a matter of choices and desires. I was happy to pay $79 for a 25 year old set of Proto PA/PB, both powered, NOS undecorated locos. I will go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe some people are tired of the preorder, vaporware, wait for it to get built thing and are willing to pay new prices for something that will show in a week rather than 10 months? I'm happy that I was able to afford what I wanted years ago, and I have interest in "trading up". Sheldon
As we have discussed before, "superior model" is a matter of choices and desires.
I was happy to pay $79 for a 25 year old set of Proto PA/PB, both powered, NOS undecorated locos.
I will go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe some people are tired of the preorder, vaporware, wait for it to get built thing and are willing to pay new prices for something that will show in a week rather than 10 months?
I'm happy that I was able to afford what I wanted years ago, and I have interest in "trading up".
Sheldon
I assume that inflation is finally hitting the used consumer goods areas where the normal idea of depreciation of the toys doesn't hold water currently.
I see Athearn BB cars going for $15 that originally sold for $4.98, so its not really about changes in modeling tastes, IMO. Under normal consumer theory, that item should depreciate and be worth only $2 since the box was opened and the item played with. I guess if you hold anything long enough, the price goes up as long as its not obsolete.
I just did a quick search for an Atlas loco I'm interested in.
Ebay has a used 2007 run listed at a BIN price of $198.
Spring Creek Model Trains and another retailer still has a 2016 run for $224.
Meanwhile, I have on preorder a 2021 announced run due 1Q23 with the most modern features for $209 from Trainworld.
Strange pricing dynamics.
But I agree with part of what you said. What it looks like is that the pre order business model is leaving a lot of product unproduced that could otherwise be sold. Spring Creek has one left at $224. They may have been priced too high to sell out everything in 90 days but they sold everything out over the years except one. Good for them.
But getting back to my OP, the $198 BIN for a used 2007 model with old technology just seems out of line relative to other choices. I don't get how the sellers think they will sell it, yet those prices are all over ebay now.
- Douglas
As usual, I look for IC/ICG stuff. I got back in the hobby too late for the Intermountain GP10s. Now, every one I've seen on ebay goes for $350, minimum. One just sold in the last couple of weeks for that and it had busted up railings. Others have gone for that much that didn't even have sound.
What really gripes me is that Walthers IC passenger cars now run $100 on average, because some are as high as $150.
Other stuff, including IC items, seem fairly consistent and reasonable. Those Intermountain GP10s and Walthers passenger cars are crazy, though.
DoughlessI don't use Ebay much anymore, but I visited the site yesterday and was shocked at the prices.
This is something I have noticed frequently lately... sellers asking way over list price for a kit that is not rare, vintage, or hard to get.
The "Lucky 7 Tavern" from FOS Scale Models is available directly from FOS for about $42.00, but on eBay people often ask $50.00 to $60.00 for the model. Same with the "Majestic Hardware" from Bar Mills. $120.00 on eBay, $99.95 directly from Bar Mills.
Yarmouth kits go for insane prices on eBay, but they are $65.00 direct from the manufacturer.
I don't understand.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I would best describe it as a 'reluctant necessity'. There are alot of points on either pro/con side of it. I still think fishing on the bay can still provide items of need now and then.
If im reading your post right it seems you are percieving more and more 'cons' than 'pros' these days. I would have to agree. I would also agree its not just the overly gouged pricing, but shipping, totally unknowledgable sellers, and even EBays operating practices (shady at times!) are certainly under a scrutiny.
I step a little more carefully now a days when fishing the bay. I also repeat buy with known, respectable, sellers. There arent ANY shops or shows in this part of the country, so as said.... a necessity im reluctant to use.
PMR
SeeYou190 Doughless I don't use Ebay much anymore, but I visited the site yesterday and was shocked at the prices. This is something I have noticed frequently lately... sellers asking way over list price for a kit that is not rare, vintage, or hard to get. The "Lucky 7 Tavern" from FOS Scale Models is available directly from FOS for about $42.00, but on eBay people often ask $50.00 to $60.00 for the model. Same with the "Majestic Hardware" from Bar Mills. $120.00 on eBay, $99.95 directly from Bar Mills. Yarmouth kits go for insane prices on eBay, but they are $65.00 direct from the manufacturer. I don't understand. -Kevin
Doughless I don't use Ebay much anymore, but I visited the site yesterday and was shocked at the prices.
Thanks for the example, Kevin. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm finding 80% of the products listed are at these weirdly high prices, and 20% are auctions with the final price being more in the "normal expected" range.
In my case, a used 2007, NOS 2016, and preorder 2023 are all within a very narrow price band. Weird.
I understand that its a supply and demand market, but do these sellers really expect to sell their products at the prices they are listed at? Seems like they are willing to just list them and let them sit for months, waiting to snag a pidgeon.
Ebay doesn't charge these sellers "inventory holding costs"? Shame.
Truly rare items being a different thing of course.
E-bay has changed, too many stores now. When I started most items in trains were done by individuals or shops who just wanted to unload something. E-bay took their cut from the starting point of the bid with a percentage of the final, so many people started their listing at 99cents and let the market deside. E-bay changed this policy and now favor stores (e-bay stores that is). Shipping has also gone though the roof. I have bought for almost 20 years and been selling though a freind for 8 or so. Most of the things I buy now on e-bay are not train related.
DoughlessSeems like they are willing to just list them and let them sit for months, waiting to snag a pidgeon.
I notice this too.
One of the items that I am semi-considering is "Crocker Brothers Feed Mill" by Fine Scale Miniatures. This model sells for $110.00 to $150.00 either Buy It Now, or Auction.
There are three listed as Buy It Now on eBay in the $200.00 to $250.00 price range that the same sellers have been listing over and over again for a year. I have searched for this model so many times that I recognize these three listings. They never sell, and the sellers never lower the prices.
Ebay must be making a good chunk from listing fees from sellers like these.
They can search Sold Items to see what the kit will actually sell for. A finished and beautifully assembled example of this model did sell for $250.00, I wonder if that is how they based their pricing.
SeeYou190 Doughless Seems like they are willing to just list them and let them sit for months, waiting to snag a pidgeon. I notice this too. One of the items that I am semi-considering is "Crocker Brothers Feed Mill" by Fine Scale Miniatures. This model sells for $110.00 to $150.00 either Buy It Now, or Auction. There are three listed as Buy It Now on eBay in the $200.00 to $250.00 price range that the same sellers have been listing over and over again for a year. I have searched for this model so many times that I recognize these three listings. They never sell, and the sellers never lower the prices. Ebay must be making a good chunk from listing fees from sellers like these. They can search Sold Items to see what the kit will actually sell for. A finished and beautifully assembled example of this model did sell for $250.00, I wonder if that is how they based their pricing. -Kevin
Doughless Seems like they are willing to just list them and let them sit for months, waiting to snag a pidgeon.
I'm glad others have noticed this too.
I tend to think that these storefronts might be casual train sellers or toys/antique sellers and they use superficial information (lazy?) to price the goods instead of actually knowing the difference with different trains. Could be wrong.
My Ebay railroad-related purchases tend to fit into two groups. First would be things that are no longer made, like AHM/Rivarossi passenger cars, engines or cars (or parts) that were only offered for a brief time, or sometimes old railroad books. Second are things that are only sold in an online store, like Hay Brothers open-car loads; there's also a couple of sites that sell 3D printed things like one-piece interiors for Athearn, Con-Cor and AHM/Riv passenger cars, detail parts, etc.
SeeYou190Ebay must be making a good chunk from listing fees from sellers like these.
I haven't sold anything Ebay for many years, but I believe the seller doesn't pay anything until the item sells, even if it has to be re-listed.
wjstixSeeYou190 Ebay must be making a good chunk from listing fees from sellers like these. I haven't sold anything Ebay for many years, but I believe the seller doesn't pay anything until the item sells, even if it has to be re-listed.
Yes, that is correct. Theoretically, sellers can just ask for the moon on any item and have it sit there for years without having to incurr any "inventory holding costs" like a traditional brick & mortar store or warehouse store might. As far as I know. Maybe they'll catch a live one browsing.
I am very selective on purchases from EBAY. Only purchases I cannot buy from my local model store.
The mention of sellers selling at inflationary prices reminded me of a seller listing a book by Bob Tuck on road haulage. He wanted £500 for it (about $550 )? Brand new it is sold at £19.99 ($21) As I had it in my collection and signed by Bob (he is a family friend), was mine worth more? As I have another eleven books by Bob all signed, am I sitting on a fortune. Off course not. Good fun when trying to correspond with the seller.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
There's often been a disconnect between Buy it Now asking prices and the actual sale price. Lots of sellers have an unrealistic assessment of what their merchandise is actually worth. Auctions bring out what an item is actually worth which is what someone is willing to pay for it.
That's the great thing about the free market. A transaction requires the buyer and seller to voluntarily agree on a price. The buyer isn't required to meet the seller's asking price and the seller isn't required to agree to the offer price. Each of us has to decide what an item is actually worth to us and if the asking price goes beyond that, don't buy it. On the other hand, if you agree to the seller's price, you are saying the item is worth that much to you.
In my personal observation prices on Ebay are way up.
In some cases it is pure greed: people want top dollar for their items and are willing to wait a long time, to relist as necessary, until they get that. Some of the items I would argue are nowhere nearly as valuable as the sellers are asking.
But they sometimes get it.
The rare or scarce models that I cannot find anywhere? Yes I have bought them off Ebay recently.
However, I am absolutely positive some of the "brand new" items listed are the lemons--the ones that may have some minor cosmetic or other issues--that sellers, even well established dealers, are trying to blow out. I say this because I have gotten some relative lemons off Ebay as well as from certain large, well-established internet/mail-order dealers.
Just about every single recent purchase off Ebay that I have made has had some kind of minor problem.
Yet when I order direct from Spring Creek Model Trains brand new, I generally do not have any problems whatsoever, and the two times that I did, they gladly and promptly refunded my money (defective Rapido locos damaged in shipping by the poor design of Rapido's plastic clamshell).
Other dealers I assume are shipping out their "seconds" after they inspect the models, because I have been burned by that recently, and also with those Ebay sellers that show beautiful photos but do not allow returns. They have burned me: either nice looking engines with a bad gear noise or other mechanism issue, or minor but very annoying cosmetic issues that must have been seen.
Buyer beware!
John
Attuvian1I'm quite vintage and no one would buy me at any price. Why, I probably couldn't even be given away.
John, thanks for the chuckle! I'd be one of those listings with a 'No Returns' policy.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Attuvian1 I'm quite vintage and no one would buy me at any price. Why, I probably couldn't even be given away. John, thanks for the chuckle! I'd be one of those listings with a 'No Returns' policy. Cheers!! Dave
Attuvian1 I'm quite vintage and no one would buy me at any price. Why, I probably couldn't even be given away.
Sold as seen!
When I first got into the hobby almost all of my purchases were through eBay. That was back when shipping to Canada was around $6.00. These days I buy almost nothing from eBay because, as wrench567 notes, the shipping costs are ridiculous! The item has to be pretty rare and I have to want it really badly before I will part with my money.
I will also note that the search software has changed for the worse because it is much harder to get the basic search function to zero in on specific items or themes.
Doughless wjstix SeeYou190 Ebay must be making a good chunk from listing fees from sellers like these. I haven't sold anything Ebay for many years, but I believe the seller doesn't pay anything until the item sells, even if it has to be re-listed. Yes, that is correct. Theoretically, sellers can just ask for the moon on any item and have it sit there for years without having to incurr any "inventory holding costs" like a traditional brick & mortar store or warehouse store might. As far as I know. Maybe they'll catch a live one browsing.
wjstix SeeYou190 Ebay must be making a good chunk from listing fees from sellers like these. I haven't sold anything Ebay for many years, but I believe the seller doesn't pay anything until the item sells, even if it has to be re-listed.
It depends on the subscription that your eBay store has. I have a certain amount of "free" listings in my subscription, if I go over it I have to pay $.10 a listing. Each Buy it Now listing is good for 30 days, it will renew itself, however when it does, it counts as a new listing.
https://www.ebay.com/sub/subscriptions
An "expensive model collector"
John-NYBW There's often been a disconnect between Buy it Now asking prices and the actual sale price. Lots of sellers have an unrealistic assessment of what their merchandise is actually worth. Auctions bring out what an item is actually worth which is what someone is willing to pay for it. That's the great thing about the free market. A transaction requires the buyer and seller to voluntarily agree on a price. The buyer isn't required to meet the seller's asking price and the seller isn't required to agree to the offer price. Each of us has to decide what an item is actually worth to us and if the asking price goes beyond that, don't buy it. On the other hand, if you agree to the seller's price, you are saying the item is worth that much to you.
I've also experienced that the Buy It Now is not absolute. Contact the seller and make an offer. A seller can always change a listing to accept an offer. It's worked about 50% of the time for me.
IC_Tom IC_Tom is correct, sometimes an email and offer to the seller works. Higher shipping prices is because of higher fuel prices, this is not the sellers problem. I am a retired OTR trucker and saw prices as low as 18 cents a gallon to 49 cents a gallon the later push upwards of 1 dollar per gallon or more. After 40 years behind the wheel I retired. Now everything is going up so I adjust my buying accordingly. I've been into model trains since I was 5 years old when my Grandad on my Dad's side of the family took me to work with him one Saturday the week of Christmas 1956 at Sears and Roebuck in Ft Wayne Indiana and put me with the the guy running the Lionel trains in the stores huge display windows. That was Christmas of 1956. I think there were 6 to 8 trains running simultaneously. I remember the big ( to me) ZW transformers and the trains! I was hooked on model trains ever since! I am 71 now, and still a kid at heart everytime I enter my basement train room! :) John-NYBW There's often been a disconnect between Buy it Now asking prices and the actual sale price. Lots of sellers have an unrealistic assessment of what their merchandise is actually worth. Auctions bring out what an item is actually worth which is what someone is willing to pay for it. That's the great thing about the free market. A transaction requires the buyer and seller to voluntarily agree on a price. The buyer isn't required to meet the seller's asking price and the seller isn't required to agree to the offer price. Each of us has to decide what an item is actually worth to us and if the asking price goes beyond that, don't buy it. On the other hand, if you agree to the seller's price, you are saying the item is worth that much to you. I've also experienced that the Buy It Now is not absolute. Contact the seller and make an offer. A seller can always change a listing to accept an offer. It's worked about 50% of the time for me.
IC_Tom is correct, sometimes an email and offer to the seller works.
Higher shipping prices is because of higher fuel prices, this is not the sellers problem.
I am a retired OTR trucker and saw prices as low as 18 cents a gallon to 49 cents a gallon the later push upwards of 1 dollar per gallon or more.
After 40 years behind the wheel I retired.
Now everything is going up so I adjust my buying accordingly.
I've been into model trains since I was 5 years old when my Grandad on my Dad's side of the family took me to work with him one Saturday the week of Christmas 1956 at Sears and Roebuck in Ft Wayne Indiana and put me with the the guy running the Lionel trains in the stores huge display windows. That was Christmas of 1956. I think there were 6 to 8 trains running simultaneously.
I remember the big ( to me) ZW transformers and the trains!
I was hooked on model trains ever since!
I am 71 now, and still a kid at heart everytime I enter my basement train room! :)
TheK4Kid I've also experienced that the Buy It Now is not absolute. Contact the seller and make an offer. A seller can always change a listing to accept an offer. It's worked about 50% of the time for me.
IC_TomI've also experienced that the Buy It Now is not absolute. Contact the seller and make an offer. A seller can always change a listing to accept an offer. It's worked about 50% of the time for me.
This works. I have had about a 70% acceptance rate in making offers in the 80% range of the buy it now price.
Fred W
As this thread came out, I had just received my first item from Ebay that I have ever ordered. It was something I had been hoping for, but never knew that existed before I started checking out Ebay. So I am ecstatic. I had been looking for similar items at train shows for the last 5 years, so I thought I'd give the bay a try. Scale O is harder to find, and specific models/roadnames were usually one time items. Specifically I was looking for a NYC coal hopper in the red color I remembered from seeing in the 60's. I had seen a Weaver one at a show, but it was more boxcar brown than what I remembered.
Ebay showed the AtlasO model as used, and the picture showed a small separate piece that appeared to be broken off, but did not seem to affect the appearance. When I received it, the piece turned out to be an internal cross-brace in the coal bay, which I had never seen on less detailed models. In the photo I took, you can see where the missing cross-brace broke off.
If I get fussy, I suppose I could spot a couple of dabs of glue and repair it, or just fill it with coal. The price was about 2/3 the price when new. The item was actually for sale by Trainz. Afterwards I found their website, and their Ebay price looked about the same as on their own site. Maybe this was an item that wasn't selling on their site, and they wanted the exposure of Ebay. How many other model rail websites are there? I am certainly not going to scan them all to find a deal.
I have bought several used but "like new" items from Trainz on eBay, and I have always been pleased with my purchases. Apparently, Trainz does buy used items for resale, and their descriptions and photos honestly describe and show defects which are always minor.
Rich
Alton Junction
Finding bargains on eBay can be a real surprise.
I was browsing HO scale kits when I came across this listing, I placed a bid, and no one bid against me.
The seller obviously had no idea what these models were. They are not "SUPER DETAILED", and they are not "HO SCALE" as the auction stated.
What they are is 15mm scale wargaming miniature scenery. That onion-domed church is worth $40.00 all by itself. Since the description was wrong, and they were in the wrong category, interested parties could not find the auction.
I just happen the be a model railroader that is also a table-top wargamer, so I scored the prize.
They arrived today, and they look great.
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
They need to get painted. These were a tremendous bargain.
SeeYou190 Finding bargains on eBay can be a real surprise. I was browsing HO scale kits when I came across this listing, I placed a bid, and no one bid against me. The seller obviously had no idea what these models were. They are not "SUPER DETAILED", and they are not "HO SCALE" as the auction stated. What they are is 15mm scale wargaming miniature scenery. That onion-domed church is worth $40.00 all by itself. Since the description was wrong, and they were in the wrong category, interested parties could not find the auction. I just happen the be a model railroader that is also a table-top wargamer, so I scored the prize. They arrived today, and they look great. They need to get painted. These were a tremendous bargain.
I have gotten items off eBay, some great deals, some not as great, but all within prices I'm happy with.
If I dislike the price, I don't buy it.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I think if you look at the "sold" listings you'll see that most items are going for more reasonable prices. My guess is that folks who don't know model trains but have some to sell look at new models and take uneducated guesses. This, to me, explains $50 Rivarossi passenger cars and $160 Athearn BB locos.
The deals are still out there, though. That said, I did just pay $200 for a QSI-equipped Tru-Line Trains C-Liner -- yes, high, but they never come up and I really wanted it so I splurged. I did get decent prices on some late-production P1K RDCs ($40, $60 and $75... needed to complete the trio!)
More recently was a P2K blue box B&M BL2 -- asking $115, IIRC, with free shipping. I put a watch on it (as I sometimes do for overpriced items) just to see what happens. He sent me an offer of $85. I countered with a lowball $50 -- and lo and behold, he accepted.
Anyway, point is there are decent deals to be had, but patience is required. I remember I was able to sell a bunch of stuff last December as XMas approached. I have a few items I want to get rid of, might put them up just to see what happens.
Aaron
PRR8259I Just about every single recent purchase off Ebay that I have made has had some kind of minor problem. [snip] I have been burned by that recently, and also with those Ebay sellers that show beautiful photos but do not allow returns. They have burned me: either nice looking engines with a bad gear noise or other mechanism issue, or minor but very annoying cosmetic issues that must have been seen.
[snip]
I have been burned by that recently, and also with those Ebay sellers that show beautiful photos but do not allow returns. They have burned me: either nice looking engines with a bad gear noise or other mechanism issue, or minor but very annoying cosmetic issues that must have been seen.
You know, Ebay has some pretty good buyer protection policies. If the item is described as new, or used and fully funcitonal, and it has defects, you can get a return even if the seller doesn't accept them. All you need do is file a return with Item Not As Described (known as an INAD) in eBay parlance. eBay will always side with the buyer -- and the seller has to pay return shipping. (As a seller, I've been burned by this once. I hear it's the cost of doing business.)
I would ask that anyone do this responsibly -- conact the seller, tell them your problem. (Ebay does make you try to work out a resolution.) A seller may offer a partial refund as compensation (to save them eating the return shipping cost, plus they don't want bad feedback). If they don't offer a resolution that satisfies you, contact eBay and INAD. You'll get ALL of your money back.
Along with model trains, I also buy old cameras on eBay, and I've used this protection in the past -- when something was advertised as "Used" and in working condition, and it wasn't, I've been protected. Recently I bought a $15 camera that wasn't working -- the buyer simply refunded me and didn't ask for the item back (presumably to avoid shipping costs). Yay, free parts!
AutonerdIf the item is described as new, or used and fully funcitonal, and it has defects, you can get a return even if the seller doesn't accept them.
Also, eBay policies require that for an item to be listed as "NEW" in the model railroad category (all Toys & Hobbies categories) it must be factory sealed and never opened.
If a seller has an item listed as "NEW", but the contents of the box are displayed in a picture, he will be forced to accept the return because it was listed improperly.
I've only been burned once on a model railroad item. On a couple other purchases, I had to get ebay involved to get my refund for a defective product. I bought a putter that was listed as having cosmetic damage. When I got it, the shaft was bend about 15 degrees. The seller refunded my money and told me to keep it because he didn't want to pay for the return postage. I was able to straighten the shaft and for the cost of a new grip, I had a useful golf club.