Ok guys need some input. Little way out from finally getting a shop built and doing a layout that my dad and I can work on. Here's my problem and my thoughts.
Issue #1. I'm in a wheelchair. And in pain. And spams and blah blah blah. I don't like getting out of my chair if I don't have to.
Issue #2. Dads 78. And not that best at soldering. LOL......so that's not an option.
Here's what we are doing. A rather large ish "shelf" type layout. 1900 sq ft ish. With signals and full DCC.
Now I understand that once it's all wired, having to get under will be a limited and infrequent thing. But honestly. I don't want to have to kill myself trying to get it wired from underneath. ALSO. I'm not getting any younger. And if I hurt this bad at 50, you can be sure I"m not want to crawl underneath this layout at 70.....
My thoughts have been everything from a comfortable, adjustable mechanics creeper that I could pull myself along underneath and raise and lower it to where I need. That doesn't help solder in the face and since no one makes one, I'd have to add that to my list of things to scratch build. I want to build railroads not crap to work on them.
Secon thing I thought was a "hinge" at the back of the layout top. But that sucks because not only would it require extra wire to hang down to allow enough room to lift the top......then you run into once the track is down where to make the cuts and.......no. Not an option. My last layout was one that raised and lowered from the garage ceiling. Doable, but this layout will be non-moving. I'm looking forward to that.
Then I wonder if I could somehow router "gutters" in the top of the layout that the wires could lay in. But then once all the scenery is in I'm screwed if I have to change or replace a wire. Lame. I've thought about just walking but then I'd lose all my cool parking spots and then people would talk! LOL!
I think I'm stuck just figuring out the best option for doing it underneath. And doing the track AND signals all at the same time. Which increases intitial cost. Because I'd really like to lay track and test it for a few months before doing signals in case there are changes.
You guys are a wealth of knowledge. So I thought I'd come here for some ideas and anything you guys might be able to think of for options. I'm open to ideas. Thanks for any input!
Mike
Hopefully Broadway Lion will respond.
I believe that he runs all his wiring to the front of the benchwork.
I drop wires through the tabletop so they hang below. Then from my chair, I can reach the wires and pull them to the side, where all the connections are made. The only time I have to go under the table is if and when I install some switch machines.
I use terminal strips and make all the connections that way. I also attach labels to each wire so that I can track down any problems.
These are the strips I use, with the comb-looking things making all the screws connected. I can run one wire from the buss wire to one screw, and all the rest are then connected:
These are some of the connections for the lighting in this section of the layout. All of this wiring was done from my chair. When I'm through, a fascia board is screwed into place, hiding all the wiring. It is easily removed if I need to make any changes or add more connections.
I solder my feeder wires to the track, but that is all done on top of the table. The spade connectors clamp onto the wires, so there is no soldering needed under the table.
Good luck with your layout!
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
Building the layout modular with good measurements for track. Drop the feeders long enough to reach the front. Once the modules are mounted the wiring for the bus and signals can be run just behind a hinged fascia. Easy access at the front and the back of the fascia can act as a shelf for tools and a schematic drawn on.
Pete.
similar advice to the above: build a gutter, as you called it, along the front of the layout, with the top level with the plywood and the gutter dropping down 2 or 3 inches below. Use long feeders that reach to the gutter and enter it through holes you drill in the back of the gutter. Then they attach to terminal strips or bus bars that are mounted in the gutter, with a larger-wire "sub bus" leading from the terminal strip to the bus, which runs along the bottom of the gutter.
You can solder a cut-off switch into the sub bus for debugging shorts, one cut-off switch per terminal strip. Then when the short has been narrowed down to one of the terminal strips, you can unscrew the feeder wires from it one by one.
If you use a cut-off switch like that the sub-bus can be soldered to the main bus since you won't ever have to break that connection for debugging.
For switch machines, you can use finger-flicking, or caboose industries ground throws to avoid having to mount anything underneath. Or you can use an old-school approach of a piano-wire in a brass tube that is on top of the plywood but buried under scenery to mechanically transfer the turnout actuation to the front of the layout where it can be easily reached.
If you want to power the frogs, use frog juicers and again use a long feeder wire to the frog, then mount the juicer in your wiring gutter.
Maybe use something like 18 gauge wire for your feeders because they'll be a bit longer than feeders to a bus running beneath the table.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
There were some interesting alternatives in the 'building a layout on a rotisserie' thread here.
There were also threads about lifting the layout on cables (for example, similar to a bicycle lift) and hinging in on one side for access.
If you make the wiring in harnesses, perhaps with 'excess' conductors or extra fish space in conduits, you could arrange 'junction box' connectivity under parts of the scenery, where you could access them through 'hatches' or lifting structures without molesting the rest of the scenery.
I second doing most of the wiring on the (sub-)facia, an approach I'm following on my new RR. Murphy notwithstanding, there is not really a need to "maintain" the wiring once it is installed and continuity checked. It is all low voltage and any problems are almost 100% going to be located at one of the connections - either the feeder connection to the track, or on the terminal block on the facia - both are easily accessible. By the way I prefer the "European" terminal blocks for track feeders - much more compact than the US type blocks.
Two thoughts, probably non-starters, but perhaps . . .
Have you tried going to Amazon and searching for "creeper"? They have a number of choices that may fit your situation.
Second, you mentioned the problem with wires hanging down from a hinged panel. What you need to do is run the wires to the back of the shelf, then run a bundle for a couple of feet parallel to the hinge line, then down (up?) the wall. there is an example on a door in this thread. Note the white bundle cuving up from the cabinet to the door.
Hello All,
I have no under access to my pike as it sits on the bed in the computer/railroad/spare bedroom.
The sub-roadbed is 1-inch foam over 1/4-inch plywood on open-frame 1"x4" bench work, directly on the bed.
Yes, there is space under the pike but it is extremely difficult to access on a regular basis.
A workable solution was needed for wiring.
My best option was to go "above board."
The solution was to use 1/2-inch split poly loom; used in automotive applications for wiring harnesses, to replicate "utility tunnels" like in the prototypical world.
I sourced it from NAPA Auto Parts; part #784681.
Then, I used a 1/2-inch wood chisel to cut "trenches" in the foam and lined them with the poly loom, seam (split) side down.
I traced the lines on the foam and used the chisel to cut the sides of the trenches and maintain the 1/2-inch width.
Tip: Cutting the trenches on the inside of the guidelines allowed me to press-fit the poly loom without using adhesives to hold it in place.
To simplify wire routing I only used straight runs. When I needed to make a direction change or junction I used a 2-inch hole saw to cut into the foam and/or plywood.
When concerned with signal bleed, or needing to run more wires; turnout and/or signal control, I ran parallel tunnels for each specific "utility."
This allowed me to senic over these tunnels and not bury the wires permanently.
Because I use a radial pattern of feeder wires from a central location versus a bus, the feeders and turnout control, converge at a 12'x16" "utility pit", which holds the terminal strips along with the auto-reversing unit and circuit breakers.
This can be adapted to a traditional bus configuration by using one "utility tunnel" for the bus while installing running additional tunnels, parallel, for other "utilities"; turnout control or signaling.
A ventilated cover plate made from Luan plywood covers the utility pit and is seniced with trees and shrubs to allow for airflow. I drilled ventilation holes below the utility pit, in the 1/4-inch plywood, to aid in heat dissipation.
The booster/command station sits on top of the sub-roadbed, covered with two (2) kitbashed Walthers Northern Light & Power structures into one large structure.
Junctions are covered with smaller structures so the wiring can be accessed for expansion, maintenance and/or troubleshooting.
Five (5) parallel "utility tunnels" were cut and lined with the poly loom from the central "utility pit" through the facia and connected to the fold-down control panel with Molex® connectors.
Keep the question/problems coming and as always...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Man you guys are awesome! So many more replies than I had expected. Thank you all for the input. I think I like that idea of running extra long wires, dropping them down and doing a facia on the front that hinges down right into my lap. That would solve to problems. The wiring problem number one, and covering up all the wires and things behind! Genius actually. And I'm going to run Tortise switch machines on all the switches including using those same machines for a couple crossing bucks. Even then, I'll have to get undre there to screw those in but with a wiring harness I can run the wires to the front of the facia as well. Again. Brilliant idea!
It's definitely going to take more wire. But that's ok. I'm ok with spending more to have it done right and make it fully accessible since pops isn't much for trouble shooting.....he just likes speeding in my yards! :D
PennsyLou......you mentioned European terminal blocks. Do you have a link as to what specifically you're talking about? Again thanks to everyone who provided input and ideas. Gonna try some things out but I think it's doable for sure!
Be sure and allow a couple inches of depth between your fascia and sub-fascia for mounting 'stuff' (electronics, like reversers and circuit breakers).
Part of the issue with needing to mess with the wiring once it's set up is that sooner or later you get a mystery short and can't find the source. To debug it, you need to be able to do divide and conquor, and that means selectively disconnecting parts of the layout. That's where you don't want to have everything soldered, and the terminal strips are a plus. Having toggle switches in places helps a bunch.
You do not have to mount tortoise switch machine immediately below the turnout. You could mount them above the layout and disguise them with scenery, or in your case I would consider putting them in the wiring trough and using long mechanical linkage to throw the turnout - a piano wire in a tube. That can either go above ground or below the layout and then up through a hole below the turnout, as you like. I think that will need less work under the layout if you install them that way, and if you ever need to swap one out it will be a lot easier.
5150WS6My thoughts have been everything from a comfortable, adjustable mechanics creeper that I could pull myself along underneath and raise and lower it to where I need.
5150WS6I think I like that idea of running extra long wires, dropping them down and doing a facia on the front that hinges down right into my lap.
extra long wires would be needed if things are mounted on the fascia panel
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I use plastic modular shelves.
They are the perfect height as either one stack or two stacked.
Although, I am not in a wheelchair I feel your pain and prefer to sit and not get up. These shelves allow me to thread wire in and out above and below to my hearts content.
Here is an example of these shelves, I have been usign a variet since 2005!
You can get them at Lowes, Home Depot online etc and they beat lugging heavy wood and using nails. No more standing, kneeling, squating or crouching.
I don't know how tall the bottom of your layout is from the floor. Mine is set at 44". That gives me enough room to use a standard roll-around office chair. I just unlock the seat back so I can recline and roll around under my layout. The track is wired in blocks and leads back to the control panels.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Thats pretty cool Marlon! All you need is a cupholder, a bookshelf and a Alarm Clock, like George Castanza from Seinfeld:
Thanks guys. Definitely some solid ideas.
I think we are going to try to pursue a drop down front with all the wiring on the back for ease. My biggest concern now is table height.
Since I'm in the chair full time, I want the table to top be easily accessible by me. All the lazy walking friends that come over will have to bend over or grab an extra chair. Lol!
That being said I would like the layout at about 30" from the floor. That's the sweet spot for working on things for me at least. might be able to go a little higher.
But being my legs in the chair(knees) need 29" to clear the underneath.....I'm going to have to get creative with a front facia design. I could go as high as 32" but that still doesnt leave a lot of room for a facia piece. And the higher it gets the less reach I'll have.
The widest reach on the layout will be 24-28". I feel that's about as far as I want to stretch but I'm 6'1" so that's easily obtainable for me.
I've tossed around the idea of a slide out vs a swing open door. Have it like a flat 1" simple piece of wood that everything is mounted too. Need to have it deep enough to accommodate switches and the power blocks.
Still kicking around ideas. Thanks for tall the insight and ideas guys. Huge help as always!
Very nice job on the layout, in particular i noticed the sub-station & high voltage towers. Many RR modeler's disregard or avoid adding proto-typical power on their layouts, especially industrial building and yards. I added flashing led's on top of Walthers transmission towers providing power to the sub-station in the steel mill section of my layout, I also added connecting power lines from the towers leading to the sub-station transformers, and subsequentl power lines to the rolling mill /arc furnace & bag house buildings. "Its all in the details".
Happy Holidays, Bayway Terminal NJ
Mike.
My layout room is upstairs of a cape house. That makes two of my walls following the 45 degree roof angle but the bottom wall section is 36 inches straight up. So my planned railroad was modular sections 32 inches from the floor. I have a couple roll around chairs to keep from stooping and killing my already messed up back. Then the kids moved back and my layout room became a bedroom. A decade later I finally have it back in my possession.
Low layouts happen. Your friends will understand. Good luck and have fun.