I did not want to take the Rapido PA thread even farther off topic, so I decided to open a new thread for this discussion.
Sheldon posted this:
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs this hobby becomes more and more about buying expensive toys built by others, I become more determined to maintain those aspects of the "old ways" I enjoy.
I agree with this completely, and I absolutely enjoy the "Old Way" of modeling.
What means the "Old Way" to me, is how it was done in Model Railroader Magazine back in the later 1970s, 1980s, and into the early 1990s.
Back then we had:
Model of the Month
Paint Shop
Detailing Locomotives
Brass Locomotives
Kitbashing, Scratchbuilding, and Craftsman Kits
I enjoy the craftsmanship of others. My favorite posts in Weekend Photo Fun are where others share the things they are building, especially in process pictures.
I am very happy that (with less than five exceptions) I have painted and decorated every piece of equipment for my layout.
I like customizing my Stewart, Bowser, and Athearn diesels.
I don't want uber-detailed fragile locomotives. I want rugged machines that can be tinkered with. I really enjoy that.
Scratchbuilding and assembling craftsmen kits has been how I do things since I was in high school, and I still love it.
All of that is how I get the most enjoyment from my hobby time.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Do you buy pre-made track components? Why don't you handlay track?
Do you buy pre-made power packs or throttles? Why don't you build your own?
Do you use power tools? Why not only hand tools?
You're not doing it the OLD WAY.
I don't scratchbuild, kitbash, or superdetail locomotives or rolling stock. I don't paint or decal locomotives or rolling stock.
Why?
Because I hate it. Those things are, for me, absolutely the most boring, tedious, and least worthwhile aspect of model railroading.
You know what I am doing?
Scratchbuilding a model railroad. Locomotives and rolling stock are components of that model railroad, as are Atlas turnouts or MRC power packs.
Ready-to-run models mean I can spend nearly all of my time and effort on the aspects of model railroading that I truly enjoy.
Please stop with this subject. It has, and always will have, a judgemental feel that simply cannot be avoided. Do what you like, respect what others like. Clearly this forum is not representative of the hobby as a whole, and the member here need to understand that
@AEP528, well said.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
AEP528Please stop with this subject. It has, and always will have, a judgemental feel that simply cannot be avoided. Do what you like, respect what others like. Clearly this forum is not representative of the hobby as a whole, and the member here need to understand that
I'm not sure I agree. I think this forum has all kinds of viewpoints, and it seems Kevin was just saying what he enjoys.
I didn't get the sense that he is judging anyone else. And I think I've read enough of his and others' posts to see that.
Kevin has started quite a few threads on this forum where he is very complimentary of everyone's model railroading efforts, regardless of what they may be.
York1 John
York1Kevin was just saying what he enjoys.
This was my take as well.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I do enjoy the skill part of the hobby but the motive power out there RTR is just way beyond my pay grade. I used to super detail freight cars because I had to and did it well but I started getting more joy from fixing others work, missing parts etc. rather than starting from scratch (you just have to be very good at paint matching).
It seems to me that your attitude could easily be considered judgemental, too, and with a negative viewpoint.
AEP528You know what I am doing? Scratchbuilding a model railroad. Locomotives and rolling stock are components of that model railroad, as are Atlas turnouts or MRC power packs.
You can consider yourself to be building a model railroad, but you've already decried scratchbuilding, which indicates to me that you do not understand the terminology. R-T-R locos and rolling stock are perfectly fine, but they have no connection at all with scratchbuilding.
Wayne
A few thoughts:
I think threads like this can get into an Us vs Them, or my Team is the best, kind of atmosphere.
What I detect in some comments over the years is that some modelers approach the hobby with a certain amount of ideology as a guiding light. Doing it a certain way satisfies them as much if not more than just the results of the modeling. Or maybe doing it the RTR way is somehow cheating the game. Or conversely, scratchbuilding is for out of touch dinosaurs who don't care that much about fidelity.
I have just finished bashing an Atlas GP40-2W into a freelanced GP38-2W by removing its turbo exhaust stack and adding a scratchbuilt paper airfilter box and 4 details associates exhaust stacks. I'm not oppossed to bashing when I have too.
Had to match the factory paint by...hey how's this...scratchbuilding the paint. I never buy model paints premade into the proper colors. Tamiya? Scalecoat? what do they make? I paint everything by mixing the brightest versions of red, yellow, and blue..and add white or black, and there you have it. Any color in the world can be reproduced from those. But I touch up spots to match factory paint, so I never need much paint to begin with.
I guess I look at it as just using the processes that best accomplish the goals. I buy RTR now because I can't convert and older Athearn BB GP38-2 into a Genesis quality GP38-2 as well as Athearn did.
I don't really have pride in my hobby efforts. I get satisfaction. I don't follow an ideology. I'm very satisfied having the best GP38-2 I can have for my layout, and the only freelanced frankenbuild of a GP38-2W that I have seen. Both acquired by different means.
- Douglas
AEP528 Do you buy pre-made track components? Why don't you handlay track? Do you buy pre-made power packs or throttles? Why don't you build your own? Do you use power tools? Why not only hand tools? You're not doing it the OLD WAY. I don't scratchbuild, kitbash, or superdetail locomotives or rolling stock. I don't paint or decal locomotives or rolling stock. Why? Because I hate it. Those things are, for me, absolutely the most boring, tedious, and least worthwhile aspect of model railroading. You know what I am doing? Scratchbuilding a model railroad. Locomotives and rolling stock are components of that model railroad, as are Atlas turnouts or MRC power packs. Ready-to-run models mean I can spend nearly all of my time and effort on the aspects of model railroading that I truly enjoy. Please stop with this subject. It has, and always will have, a judgemental feel that simply cannot be avoided. Do what you like, respect what others like. Clearly this forum is not representative of the hobby as a whole, and the member here need to understand that
Lots of us do both.
I use prefab track, but I also learned the skills to hand lay track, and did that on several layouts. I still build custom trackage when it is needed.
I use Aristo Train Engineer radio throttles, but I build my own complex advanced cab control system, turnout control system and signal system.
I put Homasote roadbed down with a pnuematic brad nailer, I'm a carpenter by profession, I have LOTS of power tools. I glue flex track down with modern adhesives.
I paint and decal models because I like freelance modeling and sometimes I want prototype models no body makes.
I agree, purchasing nice RTR models does free up time and skills for the things you really like.
In my case some of that is scratchbuilding or superdetailing or kit bashing to get those items nobody makes that I want for the story I want my layout to tell.
Seems sad to restrict your modeling completely to what some manufacturer has decided to make.
But I do have my share of nice RTR. Spring Mills Depot, Fox Valley, Intermoutain, etc. I model 1954, so there is not as much "high end" RTR as there is for more recent eras.
As others have commented, you sound pretty judgemental too. But I will say to you, don't expect me to be impressed with that locomotive you bought and did nothing to. Trust me, I don't envy your purchasing power.
A shot of the new ceiling in part of the train room..... and a few of the trains....
We all find our own balance, and any comments I made are a reaction to the product choices the manufacturers make, not a judgement of how others persue the hobby.
I have resin kits on my layout, I have 60 year old Athearn and Varney metal kits, I have Athearn blue box (and yellow box) kits. I have mid priced RTR, I have expensive RTR.
I have wood craftsman kits, some I built at a young age, and I'm rather proud to say they hold up pretty well against current offerings. I was piping full brake rigging on craftsman kits at age 15, I'm not impressed that you bought a bunch of high end cars with such features. So have I.
And OK, I get it, you are a layout builder. So am I, but I am also a model train buider.
As a layout builder, I prefer a lot of the "old ways". Plaster on wire screen, NO foam, homasote roadbed, DC control, no sound, no double decks, no narrow shelves that only model 90' feet either side of the tracks, no point to point layouts with lots of BORING switching at each end.
Instead I prefer nice deep scenes that allow modeling more non railroad aspects of the scene. I prefer large curves and open scenes with expansive scenery. No spaghetti bowls of track.
No 12 car trains pulled by UP Big Boys. No sharp curves with 80' passenger cars looking like LIONEL toys. No gaps between passenger car diaphragms.
Here is the plan for my new layout, progress is slow right now, but materials are now on station for benchwork construction to begin.
Sheldon
Whether you assemble you layout from all ready-to-run components, or scratchbuild everything (I think most of us are somewhere in between), you're not modeling wrong.
This is a diverse hobby, with a tremendous breadth of approaches.
Me, I don't buy RTR rolling stock (except for the occasional special-run NMRA cars and such). I enjoy building kits. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the fine details on Bowser, Tangent and other RTR product producers; I certainly do.
All my locos are RTR. I have one ancient Roundhouse Mogul kit that I may build - someday. I build my own turnouts, but use Atlas and Peco flex track (and ME where I use code 55 rail).
I've scratchbuilt a few structures, but mostly I have plastic kits and a few older wood and cardstock buildings (those 40- and 50-year old kist are a blast to build by the way, and they're dirt cheap at train shows!).
So enjoy the hobby your way, and feel free to talk about it. But don't imply that if I'm not doing it your way, I'm doing it wrong. And please don't get upset when someone else shares their preferred way of model railroading. Have fun with your approach to the hobby, and allow others the same please.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Well said Mark.
DoughlessI don't really have pride in my hobby efforts. I get satisfaction.
BATMAN Doughless I don't really have pride in my hobby efforts. I get satisfaction.
Doughless I don't really have pride in my hobby efforts. I get satisfaction.
You must not be a Rolling Stone. They can't get no satisfaction.
Im like most , fall inbetween i use flex track code 100 with peco turnouts
I have 30 big boys & no bowser big boy kits among them
I use foam board with ribbing support & do build accurail kits & bb kits & i started DC but migrated to NCE so im drifting towards the higher end
locomotives .
Researching to build a layout is sooo much fun & now with the internet we are no longer 'LONE WOLF" MODELERS
#HAVEFUN
I didn't sense anything judgemental or disrespectful in the OP's post at all. Kevin just said how he likes to do things.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
thomas81z Im like most , fall inbetween i use flex track code 100 with peco turnouts I have 30 big boys & no bowser big boy kits among them I use foam board with ribbing support & do build accurail kits & bb kits & i started DC but migrated to NCE so im drifting towards the higher end locomotives . Researching to build a layout is sooo much fun & now with the internet we are no longer 'LONE WOLF" MODELERS #HAVEFUN
And by contrast, I have never owned a model of a Big Boy......
We all find what makes us happy.
thomas81zI have 30 big boys...
Did the UP even have that many?
Seems like most of the big railroads these days buy their engines and cars "ready-to-run"...
Pruitt thomas81z I have 30 big boys... 30?!? Wow! All different road numbers? That's a pretty significant investment. Did the UP even have that many?
thomas81z I have 30 big boys...
30?!? Wow! All different road numbers? That's a pretty significant investment.
No, they only had 25.
OldEngineman ] Seems like most of the big railroads these days buy their engines and cars "ready-to-run"...
]
And yet, I wonder how they all look at the end of their careers.
AEP528Do you buy pre-made track components? Why don't you handlay track? Do you buy pre-made power packs or throttles? Why don't you build your own? Do you use power tools? Why not only hand tools? You're not doing it the OLD WAY.
As I said in my original post, I am doing it as was described in Model Railroader magazines in the late 1970s through early 1990s. To me, that is the "old way". Sorry, I am not old enough to remember when handlaying track and building power supplies was the normal way.
riogrande5761@AEP528, well said.
I guess my opening post was not clear. I was saying how I get enjoyment from this hobby, and I was wondering if anyone else wanted to share anything on this subject.
Even after re-reading my original post, I do not understand this pair of comments at all.
DoughlessI think threads like this can get into an Us vs Them.
That was certainly not my intention.
It seems my intentions were immediately misunderstood.
Very interesting thread. I must say that I get immense satisfaction from detailing and painting my old Athearn Blue Box stuff. With the advent of DCC, I have derived much satisfaction from installing new, low amp motors in those good ol' Uncle Irv lokeys. If someone wants to purchase on of those new, well detailed lokeys, that is OK by me. This hobby has plenty of room for all of us and is multi-faceted. We just need to find what gives us the joy of model railroading.
Don; Prez, CEO or whatever of the Wishram, Oregon and Western RR
PruittDid the UP even have that many?
doctorwayneYou can consider yourself to be building a model railroad, but you've already decried scratchbuilding, which indicates to me that you do not understand the terminology. R-T-R locos and rolling stock are perfectly fine, but they have no connection at all with scratchbuilding.
I have to agree. I feel I am modeling a railroad, only ye railroad I am modeling just isn't found in RTR kits. I've always looked at mmodeling as being a craft and an art, akin to silversmithing (something else I have enjoyed). There should be a place for those of us who enjoy that part of the hobby, even if it is "the old way." Should we fracture the hobby between RTR DCC operators vs. scratch building fine scalists vs. live steamers vs. Garden railroaders? I hope not. I confess that I do look back in those old magazines for inspiration. I fear where the hobby is gone in recent years leaves me a little cold, but I just accept the fact that I find the romance of the rails in a different (well established) aspect of the hobby. I sometimes wonder if we aren't a generation away from modelrailroading becoming a virtual hobby on computer screens, and those fussing with us oldtimers may find the shoe on the other foot. New times bring new things. That does not mean we should belittle those who wish to retain some heritage enjoyment of the hobby.
BATMANAnd yet, I wonder how they all look at the end of their careers.
The 1:1 guys weather their locomotives and rolling stock just like some of us do. It just takes them a lot longer. The results are pretty authentic though!
I just wish that our models could belch black smoke as well as the real guys do!
Cheers!!
SeeYou190 AEP528 Do you buy pre-made track components? Why don't you handlay track? Do you buy pre-made power packs or throttles? Why don't you build your own? Do you use power tools? Why not only hand tools? You're not doing it the OLD WAY. As I said in my original post, I am doing it as was described in Model Railroader magazines in the late 1970s through early 1990s. To me, that is the "old way". Sorry, I am not old enough to remember when handlaying track and building power supplies was the normal way. riogrande5761 @AEP528, well said. I guess my opening post was not clear. I was saying how I get enjoyment from this hobby, and I was wondering if anyone else wanted to share anything on this subject. Even after re-reading my original post, I do not understand this pair of comments at all. -Kevin
AEP528 Do you buy pre-made track components? Why don't you handlay track? Do you buy pre-made power packs or throttles? Why don't you build your own? Do you use power tools? Why not only hand tools? You're not doing it the OLD WAY.
riogrande5761 @AEP528, well said.
SeeYou190 Doughless I think threads like this can get into an Us vs Them. That was certainly not my intention. - - - - - - - - - - Can a moderator lock this thread? It seems my intentions were immediately misunderstood. -Kevin
Doughless I think threads like this can get into an Us vs Them.
Mike
I'm sure that it wasn't. I think when someone implies that they enjoy doing things one way, it sparks a reaction that other ways must be inferior. Its not the intent, but its reality that it can be easily read that way. It can sound exclusive to some or many.
I don't think it was your intention, because I don't think what you do is exclusive of other ways. You buy highly detailed expensive RTR stuff too. Brass. While they may be undecorated, that's probably a function of the fact tha you freelance and you have to paint things yourself in order to have any STRATTON & GILLETTE car or locomotive, or your railroads of nonsense, as you call it. If you were modeling the Nickel Plate, you'd probably own many expensive highly detailed brass Berkshires built and painted by somebody else. If not a locomotive, a bunch of brass NKP cabooses. I think you would.
But also, if you didn't model the S&G, you might not be in the hobby at all.
I see your way as a means to an end, like us all. And you probably really enjoy painting and decaling, or else you wouldn't have a fleet of nonsense that requires getting undecorated models to start with.
Making/buildings things is an important part of my hobby. Is that "old way"? I don't think the label is appropriate. When I install DCC in locos, it can be pretty work intensive, and I don't think that should be labelled as "old way".
At our local club, I try to encourage folks to "collect" less and "do" more. A lot of the "collect" folks hesitate to cross the line because they are affraid to. My response to that is that all you really need is patience (and a bit of money). A lot of what I do is purely technical, that is, techniques that do not require a lot of artistic talent. Learning how to do it, and practicing on old items is key. For example, a simple black wash and painting the trucks on rolling stock is a really easy way of removing the toyish look of BB-grade items. There is a technique to it, but it's definitely not art or rocket-science.
I do admit that some RTR items that I bought have been left untouched. For passenger trains, it's perfectly OK. So when I buy steamers new, I go for passenger engines that look as if they have just come out of the paint shop.
Simon
AEP528Do you buy pre-made track components? Why don't you handlay track? Do you buy pre-made power packs or throttles? Why don't you build your own? Do you use power tools? Why not only hand tools? You're not doing it the OLD WAY. I don't scratchbuild, kitbash, or superdetail locomotives or rolling stock. I don't paint or decal locomotives or rolling stock. Why? Because I hate it. Those things are, for me, absolutely the most boring, tedious, and least worthwhile aspect of model railroading. You know what I am doing? Scratchbuilding a model railroad. Locomotives and rolling stock are components of that model railroad, as are Atlas turnouts or MRC power packs. Ready-to-run models mean I can spend nearly all of my time and effort on the aspects of model railroading that I truly enjoy.
I think this part of your post made some very good points.
A lot of "old way" modelers focus on the models themselves. Mainly rolling stock and locomotives. That's the persepctive here, how do those models come to be.
Does an auto restorer fabricate a replacement fender on his own, or does he order a RTR fender from Rock Auto, and then use that component to build a complete car?
The perspective you have might depend on what you are building. If you are building a layout, then RTR track, cars, locos, buildings etc are simply parts to the completed layout that you assemble. Others go so far as to RTR the entire layout by hiring it all out to professional model railroad builders.
I think the debate is focused on the actual models themsleves, and not the entire layout. Myself, I don't think the individual models themselves are all that important relative to the total picture, but that's one perspective