riogrande5761Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time.
Your standards must be higher than mine are.
I thought that was a great example of an Alco PA in a gorgeous paint scheme.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
riogrande5761 Semi interested. The PA's really fall outside of my primary interest time period but as often happens, it can be interesting to run a few trains from an earlier time period. Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time. It looks like Rapido may be trying to make this D&RGW PA fit 50's and 60's with the late style grab iron details and toe creep way etc. but tossing in the side number boards as an option. But even though my disposable income is more than it used to be, the costs of engines and models in general are forcing many of us to make choices.
Semi interested. The PA's really fall outside of my primary interest time period but as often happens, it can be interesting to run a few trains from an earlier time period. Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time. It looks like Rapido may be trying to make this D&RGW PA fit 50's and 60's with the late style grab iron details and toe creep way etc. but tossing in the side number boards as an option. But even though my disposable income is more than it used to be, the costs of engines and models in general are forcing many of us to make choices.
I would think 1977 would be too late for a PA. Cool paint scheme for that loco though.
You would want matching cars too, no?
- Douglas
Doughless riogrande5761 Semi interested. The PA's really fall outside of my primary interest time period but as often happens, it can be interesting to run a few trains from an earlier time period. Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time. It looks like Rapido may be trying to make this D&RGW PA fit 50's and 60's with the late style grab iron details and toe creep way etc. but tossing in the side number boards as an option. But even though my disposable income is more than it used to be, the costs of engines and models in general are forcing many of us to make choices. I would think 1977 would be too late for a PA. Cool paint scheme for that loco though. You would want matching cars too, no?
The 4 D&H PA's were in service until 1978, so 1977 could work.
An "expensive model collector"
I have no affiliation with Lombard Hobbies, however they have just posted the PAs for sale, at a decent discount. 2 of them as DC models would not end up as a "$400 locomotive".
n012944 I have no affiliation with Lombard Hobbies, however they have just posted the PAs for sale, at a decent discount. 2 of them as DC models would not end up as a "$400 locomotive".
Roadname?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 I have no affiliation with Lombard Hobbies, however they have just posted the PAs for sale, at a decent discount. 2 of them as DC models would not end up as a "$400 locomotive". Roadname?
https://lombardhobby.com/rapido-ho/
n012944Lombard-Hobby-Rapido
Well, that give me something to think about.
$350.00 for a PA/PB pair, and the NYC Lightning Stripe looks like a possible paint-over job.
OK... PA owners... How do they run and pull?
SeeYou190OK... PA owners... How do they run and pull?
I only have an hour of "break-in" time on my NKP pair. I'm very impressed. If you get DC models you'll have plenty of room to add a little weight§. Presently the pair are pulling a seventeen-car "Merchant's Limited" (Rapido Pullman, New Haven 8600 coaches, two diners and four parlor cars) which is what I had on the main at the time.
I just got an email from Scale Sound systems that they have already developed a custom fit speaker for the PAs. A worthy upgrade. The Rapido designers seem to like iphone speakers and I'm not impressed with these especially compared to the SSS performance.
I just ordered an NYC A-B set from MB Klein. (ModelTrainStuff) don't forget to type in laborday10 for a 10% additional off.
§ If that's your cup of tea.
Happy modeling.
gmpullmanPresently the pair are pulling a seventeen-car "Merchant's Limited" (Rapido Pullman, New Haven 8600 coaches, two diners and four parlor cars) which is what I had on the main at the time.
I could never fit a 17 car train in the space I have for a layout.
My maximum passenger train length I calculated at 2 locomotives and seven cars. I am sure virtually any locomotive can handle that.
I currently have Athearn PAs, I never upgraded to Proto-2000 models, so these would be a big step up.
How thick is the paint? Could I paint over, or would I need to strip?
SeeYou190How thick is the paint? Could I paint over, or would I need to strip?
Not overly thick I would say. Rather than NYC stripes which might be hard to hide even if you try to remove them you might want to think about the "Bloody Nose" SP scheme? Solid gray. Possibly you could remove the lettering, with luck, and retain the red nose and claim S&G had it first and the SP/Cotton Belt borrowed it from you!
I know somebody that could fix you up with a nice pair of Proto 2000 NYC A-B PAs if you're interested Only driven to the bingo games on Wednesday night and choir practice on Saturday mornings...
Good Luck, Ed
Just got my plain dc no sound NKP PA-1 this morning.
Also note distributors including Walthers are out of Rio Grande units. The few units still in stock at distributors are mostly LV and NKP units (which imo are the best looking models of the ones made by Rapido). Edit: the PRR, NH, Freedom Train, and SP fans should all be happy, especially with 2 versions of SP.
Held a Santa Fe one in my hands. The painted stainless steel finish does not do it, not even close to capturing the correct look of a Santa Fe unit (this is why the LV and NKP units look the best; they also have the least number of fat plastic grabs on them and their paint is pretty good). Color separations are good but not great on the NKP as there is subtle white overspray in places as others have noted. The NKP paint curves it seems are difficult to mask and paint well for anyone, and this model does have a better NKP paint job than what you'd normally see on a brass one, when you can find them (Brasstrains has one that is not as good as the Rapido model).
On my new model I fixed most of the offending crooked cylinders; some would not break free to rotate them. They may have been glued into place crooked on purpose to clear the underbody wiring that nobody can see unless the model is upside down. I personally would have glued the cylinders into the correct position and skipped the un-seeable details, also because the trucks seem to want to snag on those details.
24" radius curves are recommended. I have Kato 26.375" minimum radius with 28.75" radius effective easements into them. My trackwork easily accommodates any BLI or MTH steamer including 4-8-8-4's, 2-8-8-4's, and 4-8-4's, and even 4-12-2's. However, the PA-1 does not fully like my trackwork and in particular does not like to back up in some areas without derailing. Fortunately, I don't plan on backing up much. Forward it is working ok now after a little adjustment of a Kato #8 turnout. Had to fix a low spot at a joint in close proximity to the frog. PA-1 doesn't like a sag kink anywhere.
The model is noisier in plain dc than other Rapido engines I have had. It runs fast, can easily achieve the 117 mph prototypical top speed if desired. It pulls extremely well--I have to give it that. It pulls as well as some heavier larger diesels, so I would think a couple units could pull most decent length passenger trains.
As compared to the Bowser brand new RS-3 model, the Bowser in plain dc runs much quieter. Bowser did a better job on road specific details and getting everything to fit exceptionally well. I believe that to be an honest and fair comparison. That's not trashing the Rapido PA-1, but merely comparing it to the other most current new loco that is out.
The Rapido PA-1 is a very good model. There are legitimate concerns with the front windshield shape and location (offset) of the trim piece around the front windshield not being quite correct especially at the outer corners. Most will not compare it to a prototype photo to care. The side grills look much better than the Walthers/Proto model. Overall it is probably a nicer model than that older, now somewhat dated Proto body. They could have done a bit more pilot detail right around the coupler and its opening. That appears to be a missing item. Imo it would have been better to skip the underbody wiring that can get in the way of truck swing, and to instead spend a little more effort on the coupler pocket itself, but that's my opinion and I don't get to tool up models.
Overall, for most people it is a really nice model worthy of a spot on your roster. Diehard Santa Fe and D&H fans might not be happy with anything less than a real metal plated finish, because that's what they've come to expect especially with Walthers and Genesis F units having set such a high standard.
I consider this to be a very good model that could have been the "standard" against which all other PA models are ever measured, but they didn't quite get it that good.
Having run it and played with it, I am glad I got one.
John
John,
I noted from Ed's photos that a few things are better done than on the Proto model.
And few things I feel are neither better or worse, just done differently. One thing for sure, all six Proto's I have are smooth and quiet, and the diaphragms work well and meet my standards with the Kadee kit installed.
Had they made the undecorated models, I'm sure I would have been happy from what you and Ed have had to say, and from pictures I have seen. But that would not have resulting in the retirement of my Protos.
On the other hand, I'm not really disappointed in not getting them.
I found more NOS Proto models in my prefered version, dynamic brakes, big numberboards, as well as dynamic brake B units, so I'm set now, more PA's than I need, at bargain prices, just a little more work to convert the dummy B's to powered units, and a few spare parts.....
Sheldon
PRR825924" radius curves are recommended. I have Kato 26.375" minimum radius with 28.75" radius effective easements into them. My trackwork easily accommodates any BLI or MTH steamer including 4-8-8-4's, 2-8-8-4's, and 4-8-4's, and even 4-12-2's. However, the PA-1 does not fully like my trackwork and in particular does not like to back up in some areas without derailing.
Thank you for this information. That gets me off the fence, and into the "no" column for this model.
My hidden curves will be Kato 22" Unitrack, and I don't want anything that turns up its nose at these curves.
My Rapido RDC does not like them either, but I think that one will be an easy fix.
SeeYou190--
I got the PA-1 running better on the layout and made a slight adjustment to a low track joint adjacent a Kato #8 turnout. Something is still making it hang up and pause for a split second every time it crosses that track joint, and I can't figure out what it is. It has improved, but is annoying.
There still are areas of my layout on a superelevated horizontal curve where the PA-1 wants to derail when backing up.
Some people have referred to me as being a "Rapido-hater". However I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If one has any illusions about the quality of one's trackwork, the long wheelbase trucks of the PA-1 will find any areas where there might be an issue.
PRR8259 Some people have referred to me as being a "Rapido-hater". However I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If one has any illusions about the quality of one's trackwork, the long wheelbase trucks of the PA-1 will find any areas where there might be an issue. John
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain PRR8259 Some people have referred to me as being a "Rapido-hater". However I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If one has any illusions about the quality of one's trackwork, the long wheelbase trucks of the PA-1 will find any areas where there might be an issue. John It's not only Rapido. In my experience, it is the nature of the beast. Until recently, I had two pairs of Proto 2000 PA/PB locos. They found every flaw in my trackwork that might even baffle a forensic scientist. I've said it before. I will say it again. I will never owned another PA or PB locomotive. Rich
It's not only Rapido. In my experience, it is the nature of the beast. Until recently, I had two pairs of Proto 2000 PA/PB locos. They found every flaw in my trackwork that might even baffle a forensic scientist. I've said it before. I will say it again. I will never owned another PA or PB locomotive.
No question, they like bigger curves. Never any problems here on 36" radius.
PRR8259I got the PA-1 running better on the layout and made a slight adjustment to a low track joint adjacent a Kato #8 turnout. Something is still making it hang up and pause for a split second every time it crosses that track joint, and I can't figure out what it is. It has improved, but is annoying.
My Athearn PA/PB set has no problem on Kato Unitrack. Since I just got two new sets of undecorated PA & PB body shells I can fix what I don't like about the way they are currently painted.
I do appreciate your objective statements.
In my 20's, I was a slobbering Alco PA fan. I read all the PA books that were out years ago, multiple times through, and I owned some of the Overland Models HO versions, which ran great for me. My issue was affording the custom paint work. When I got a real quote from my favorite professional painter to take a nickel plated ATSF Overland PA-1 and paint it and do the correct lighting, well, it was more than $500 per unit back then. You couldn't find the factory painted ATSF ones; they were impossible to find for a lot of years, at any price, or only showed up when I didn't have that kind of money. F/P is and was definitely worth the money.
I let go the two (EMD repowered version) PA's that I had to someone else...and the years went by and I played with a whole lot of other trains since. When I can't find something I want, I generally find some other train to want (that part isn't too hard for me).
Always wanted a good CB&Q E-5A, too, ever since Don Ball Jr.'s pan shot in the book America's Colorful Railroads all those years ago.
So after all these years, I finally got a nice NKP Bluebird...would've probably gotten some more PA's, but I'm more into freight railroading now. The SP PA-1 models really look great, too, but SP isn't my thing.
Doesn't mean I'm not a little bit torn by what might've been and passenger train consists I might've owned (PRR/many roads East Wind and South Wind, I know not pulled by PA's).
Still debating picking up just one LV PA-1...and remembering my friends who would've scarfed all 3 numbers of many roads, but are dead and gone, now.
Maybe if Rapido would do the NH orange and green scheme...
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Well, all this PA talk and I just got carried away. On Ebay today, another set of undecorated PA/PB, both powered, in my prefered version, 45 degree number boards and dynamic brakes, for the bargain price of $100 - for both.
So now I'm really over my quota for PA's. Maybe some of these passenger trains need a few more cars, so I can justify three units on a train.
Now I don't loose any sleep over this sort of stuff, but I got curious about spotting differences between the PA1 and the PA2.
Internally the PA1 is 2,000 HP, and the PA2 is 2,250 HP.
But as for exterior spotting differences, in some cases no difference at all.
Early PA1's seem to mostly have the small number boards. Later PA1's are mixed bag on various roads. All PA2's appear to have the large 45 degree number boards.
Early PA2's have the same distinctive curved grill behind the cab door as the PA1's.
Southern Pacific ordered a number of unique features, some of which ended up on a few other later PA2's, mainly the lack of the curved grill.
Missouri Pacific and Southern Pacific were the two biggest users of PA2's, but the MP PA2's look just like their PA1's, while SP PA2's have a number of distinct features.
So, the ATLANTIC CENTRAL PA's are offically PA2's now.......
Yes, so far as I know that is pretty correct. I personally do not know if the SP PA-2's were different in appearance at delivery, or if SP modifications changed the look very shortly thereafter. It seems as if SP was always modifying their PA's.
The PA-2 is not supposed to have the curved trim piece Sheldon alluded to, but some probably did. Also, all Santa Fe units were PA-1 models, but as years wore on some received Farr grill replacements.
I read the SP book on Alco PA's many years ago; it's been too long and I don't remember details about the appearance--except I always kinda wanted the Halloween PA unit, and the SSW or T&NO units with the silver roof actually looked even better than the regular SP ones.
The one striking thing I do remember is that SP generally speaking actually got pretty good use out of their Alco PA's. The book clearly stated that several SP PA's at retirement had accumulated 3 million miles each. That is actually quite impressive, especially for the 244 engines which were not so well regarded. (Obviously SP took advantage of the late 244-G and -H variants, possibly available through warranty, but definitely available from Alco who had fixed the late crankshafts and turbochargers).
Also, in the past there was considerable confusion--Some Alco PA-2's were in the press classified, possibly in error, as PA-3's, perhaps due to Alco specification numbers changing...there are both Overland Models and Key Imports boxes that identify some units as "PA-3" even though that particular model, today in hindsight, was supposed to have a 251 prime mover. They were the last PA-2's built in real life. (Southern, P&LE, probably some MP and SP units).
The PA-3 with the 251 engine was catalogued by Alco, but never actually built.
The Jim Boyd book on Alco PA's and the Romano book "PA Alco's Glamour Girl" are great reads and can now be costly.
The Missouri Pacific bought 8 PA1's, #8001 - 8008 and 28 PA2's #8009 - 8036.
EVERY picture I could find of the PA2 group of locos, in their as delivered paint schemes, has the curved grill, and matches all the other features of the earlier MP PA1's.
Interestingly I found one MP PA, newer dip blue scheme, renumbered 75, with non curved grill.
All other renumbered, new scheme units I could find have the curved grill.
So I think at least those 28 were built with the curved grills.
From what I have read, ALCO made good on the 244 engines and the turbos for those roads who "stuck it out", other roads just gave up and moved on.
Update: More pictures, more info - looks like the last 6 MP PA2's had the non curved grill.
And this info confirms the ALCO serial number issue. PA1's - 77503 - 77510.
Than 5 different groups of PA2's - all with 78XXX and 79XXX serial numbers.
The last six PA2's, 80045 -80050.
So, if that carries at all into other PA2 production, it might actually be that most PA2's had the curved grills and the straight grill did not appear until August 1952 production dates.
Imagine that.
Leaving the unique Southern Pacific fleet of PA's out of the conversation, I can only find possibly 20 PA2's built after 8/52 that have the straight grill. Production ended in 12/53.
All earlier non SP PA2's appear to have been built with the curved grill.
Nice research their Sheldon.
Yes, I know a larger number of PA-2's still apparently had the curved trim strip.
I never was too concerned which PA had or did not have that trim strip.
Despite my misgivings about the lack of plated finish, I was tempted to buy a single ATSF PA-1 or a D&H. Lombard Hobbies still has both with and without sound, in stock, or did as of yesterday.
However, having to break the truck cylinders loose, and not being able to get all to free up on my NKP, plus some other issues like the trim piece immediately adjacent to the front windshields not being quite the right width everywhere, and the grab irons...plus the fact that I just got a BLI PRR P70 coach in, and it derails on my superelevated curves...well I won't be modeling any passenger trains.
I had worked to improve my layout by adding superelevated curves, but have since found out that specifically BLI P70 coachs and Rapido B36-7's do not like my superelevated curves. Given that things are now glued into position, and I can't just tear up and relay track or the end result will be less level or smooth than what I have now, well running passenger trains looks like an epic fail despite the fact I can run big articulateds and any other diesels with no problems at all.
I am tempted to tear apart my layout and begin again but with something actually portable like a 5 x 9. All my original trackwork from 15 years ago that is Kato 26.38" radius curves, on flat or relatively flat pink foam insulation sheet, works just fine. It's the newer superelevated Kato track sections that are not working for me. (Yes did use their transition pieces but side to side leveling is the issue).
PRR8259 Nice research their Sheldon. Yes, I know a larger number of PA-2's still apparently had the curved trim strip. I never was too concerned which PA had or did not have that trim strip. John
Yes, I only found it interesting because I can call mine PA2's, and no rivet counter can agrue orherwise.....
Just like the extensive research I did into the plausibility of my 69" driver LIMA heavy Mikados. They never built them, but they could have. They would have been right in between the DT&I 800's and the NKP Berks, in terms of weight, speed and power.
PRR8259Well, running passenger trains looks like an epic fail.
I have had good results with Athearn and Roundhouse "shortie" cars with Kadee wheels installed. Also with the full length IHC cars refitted with their own metal RP-25 31" wheels.
Newer super detailed full length passenger cars, not so much.
Anyway, it is saving me money!
I operated the shortened passenger cars in the past, many years ago, and simply can't or don't want to go back to anything like that again. In most cases I have made minor track adjustments to make everything else including the big 86' boxcars and long flat cars work. The superelevated curves are R=31"+; it is the rate of change of cross slope relative to allowable truck roll motion that causes some items to not work.
I have heard that six wheeled trucks, like on a PA, have more trouble transitioning into super elevated trackage.