Oh no, not another thread on dirty rail causing stalls!
I have a large basement layout. The basement is unfinished, heated, cooled, and humidity controlled. My layout is a double mainline, and every single piece of track, flextrack and turnouts, has a pair of feeder wires. Same for the yards and sidings.
I have absolutely no stalls on the double mainline and yards (coach and freight). But, I do encounter stalls, especially at slow speeds, on sidings. So, yesterday, I took a closer look at my sidings of which there are several inside my large passenger station where sidings run up against my large freight houses.
Upon closer look, nothing was obvious, no streaks of black gunk, nothing. The loco wheels were clean, no signs of black gunk there either. But, I did notice a slight "glaze" on the rails. Oxidation?
I could have run my CMX car or a piece of cloth soaked in denatured alcohol, but I conveniently grabbed my Bright Boy eraser and went over the sidings which quickly produced bright, shiny rails.
That did it. My best guess is that the lesser used sidings gives oxidation a better chance to work than on the mainlines.
Your thoughts?
Rich
Alton Junction
Do you like bacon or fried chicken or fish? Is the basement entrance close to the kitchen?
As a test, see if solvent alone fixes problems like this if they recur. Oxidation would not come off nickel silver with alcohol or detergent solution; only physical abrasion of some kind does that. Grease or oil, on the other hand...
You might have set up for quicker recurrence by using the Bright Boy, for reasons perennially rehashed from time to time. If there is any grease in the air it may preferentially settle in the 'microscratches' and the little "asperities" at the tops of the scratches that actually contact the tread (and incidentally suffer the start of micro-arcing) eventually may stop making 'enough' contact...
Interesting observations, Overmod. When I walk down the basement stairs, I have to make a 180 degree turn to reach the layout, so it is not directly at the bottom of the stairs or anywhere near them. That said, the portion of the layout with most of the sidings sits directly below the kitchen. We do prepare zucchini in a deep fryer. So, you think that is the problem?
As far as a Bright Boy is concerned, in spite of some evidence to the contrary, I have always been skeptical of the notion that the Bright Boy is so abrasive that it takes away the smoothness of the rails and creates grooves, inviting even more dirt.
richhotrainAs far as a Bright Boy is concerned, in spite of some evidence to the contrary, I have always been skeptical of the notion that the Bright Boy is so abrasive that it takes away the smoothness of the rails and creates grooves, inviting even more dirt.
I may be able to get to the microscope later this year, since no one has taken me up on the challenge to document the actual effect of various gleaming processes on actual railhead quality and shape. I do know that the effect of lapping plus burnishing is needed to get actual 'smooth' rail that is free of longitudinal scratch grooving or microarc pits. Once you have it that smooth, normal solvent or detergent action should suffice to keep it that way... but it would be nice to have documented proof over time.
I don't doubt that a Bright Boy causes scratches on the railheads. I am skeptical of the claim this has a detrimental effect.
Hi Rich
I've brought it up a few times over the years but is always quickly rejected by skepticism here.
Perhaps consider this if you don't want to clean your yard tracks for another five years or so. It also takes care of micro scratches.
The downfall is it's not recommended if you run traction tires on your locomotives. If that's the case one could skip using it on main lines that stay rather clean from high-use anyway. I wouldn't think the minimal amount of rolling stock transfer would be an issue if done correctly.
I've seen firsthand how well this product works. The video is 20 minutes long and 13 before he gets to it but also has a lot of other good information as well.
https://youtu.be/lBYxjcTWCB0
TF
richhotrainThat did it. My best guess is that the lesser used sidings gives oxidation a better chance to work than on the mainlines. Your thoughts
In my years, I have been unable to distinguish the difference between oxidation and dirt.
The observation that the unused sidings need cleaning more than the frequently used rails suggests that friction...or any lingering oils from locos....prevents oxidation from occuring on frequently used rails.
Interesting question. I have no answer.
I use only 90% alcohol to clean the rails.
I have also done the few drops of auto trans fluid on the rails in several locations, spread by the moving trains, and the rails do seem to stay cleaner (the coating prevents oxidation for a while?), but there may be other variables at work here.
- Douglas
Through the years I have used a Bright Boy many many times. Lately I have been using a large block pen erasure. It's a finer abrasive than the BB and a heck of a lot less expensive. I also have a few track cleaning cars with the sliding pad.
Dust and dirt is easy to deal with. The airborne contaminates and oils leaching from plastic wheels is more challenging. Eliminate plastic wheels, no smoking, and fried foods will help but we don't live in a sterile biolab. My modules are in an unheated basement that is unfinished. Cleaning before playing is the norm.
Pete.
John-NYBW I don't doubt that a Bright Boy causes scratches on the railheads. I am skeptical of the claim this has a detrimental effect.
Mike
Overmod richhotrain As far as a Bright Boy is concerned, in spite of some evidence to the contrary, I have always been skeptical of the notion that the Bright Boy is so abrasive that it takes away the smoothness of the rails and creates grooves, inviting even more dirt. That it produces scratches has been incontrovertibly demonstrated; they are in fact visible through some loupes, and are dramatically visible in my Keeler, let alone upon inspection in a metallurgical microscope. This is not surprising, because as I recall the things are the equivalent of 400 grit sandpaper, and you can probably easily visualize the surface finish you'd get if you took a piece of 360 to 400 grit and rubbed it on a sheet of brass, or your refrigerator door. I may be able to get to the microscope later this year, since no one has taken me up on the challenge to document the actual effect of various gleaming processes on actual railhead quality and shape. I do know that the effect of lapping plus burnishing is needed to get actual 'smooth' rail that is free of longitudinal scratch grooving or microarc pits. Once you have it that smooth, normal solvent or detergent action should suffice to keep it that way... but it would be nice to have documented proof over time.
richhotrain As far as a Bright Boy is concerned, in spite of some evidence to the contrary, I have always been skeptical of the notion that the Bright Boy is so abrasive that it takes away the smoothness of the rails and creates grooves, inviting even more dirt.
That it produces scratches has been incontrovertibly demonstrated; they are in fact visible through some loupes, and are dramatically visible in my Keeler, let alone upon inspection in a metallurgical microscope. This is not surprising, because as I recall the things are the equivalent of 400 grit sandpaper, and you can probably easily visualize the surface finish you'd get if you took a piece of 360 to 400 grit and rubbed it on a sheet of brass, or your refrigerator door.
richhotrainUpon closer look, nothing was obvious, no streaks of black gunk, nothing. The loco wheels were clean, no signs of black gunk there either. But, I did notice a slight "glaze" on the rails. Oxidation? I could have run my CMX car or a piece of cloth soaked in denatured alcohol, but I conveniently grabbed my Bright Boy eraser and went over the sidings which quickly produced bright, shiny rails. That did it. My best guess is that the lesser used sidings gives oxidation a better chance to work than on the mainlines. Your thoughts? Rich
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Pruitt richhotrain Upon closer look, nothing was obvious, no streaks of black gunk, nothing. The loco wheels were clean, no signs of black gunk there either. But, I did notice a slight "glaze" on the rails. Oxidation? I could have run my CMX car or a piece of cloth soaked in denatured alcohol, but I conveniently grabbed my Bright Boy eraser and went over the sidings which quickly produced bright, shiny rails. That did it. My best guess is that the lesser used sidings gives oxidation a better chance to work than on the mainlines. Your thoughts? Rich If your track is nickel-silver, oxidation isn't the problem. NS oxidizes, but the oxide is electrically conductive. So the problem must be some contaminate getting onto the railhead.
richhotrain Upon closer look, nothing was obvious, no streaks of black gunk, nothing. The loco wheels were clean, no signs of black gunk there either. But, I did notice a slight "glaze" on the rails. Oxidation? I could have run my CMX car or a piece of cloth soaked in denatured alcohol, but I conveniently grabbed my Bright Boy eraser and went over the sidings which quickly produced bright, shiny rails. That did it. My best guess is that the lesser used sidings gives oxidation a better chance to work than on the mainlines. Your thoughts? Rich
If your track is nickel-silver, oxidation isn't the problem. NS oxidizes, but the oxide is electrically conductive. So the problem must be some contaminate getting onto the railhead.
That's a great, straightforward answer!
Edit: However, do you think the rails we have on our layouts are pure NS alloy, or do they still have a decent amount of brass mixed in?
Also look at brand new rail and compare. The most mag I have is about 12x but at that mag. their is no difference. What we need is someone to do an accual voitmeter test starting with a peice of track, new but oxidised and progress thru the different methods from alcohol on down to bright boy, might even include very fine sandpaper, I know a lot of track cleaners seem to be 240 grit.
Nickel-silver does not oxidize.
Alloys don't oxidize; the component metals in the alloy do.
The oxides of each of the three component metals are not conductive.
Nickel-silver "oxide" is not conductive.
When steel (an alloy of iron and carbon) rusts, it does not make "steel oxide". It makes iron oxide. The carbon "does its own thing", meaning if it oxidizes, it will produce carbon dioxide.
I have done testing using Bright Boy abrasive on rail. It does scratch it, and I've got pictures:
I have yet to find any comparison testing between "scratched rail" and "smooth rail" as far as the tendency of each to collect dirt.
BUT.
As long as I can keep my rails clean without scratching them, I see no reason to use a Bright Boy.
Yes, it MAY do no harm. But until I see a need, I won't be using one. It's a pain to "un-scratch" installed track.
Ed
We keep looking for the 'Ahaaaa!!' aspect of this persistent, pervasive, and universally reviled aspect of our hobby. I am beginning to take Ye Olde Eclectic approach to it. It' isn't likely to be just one thing. It is likely to be a combination of three things:
a. undulating track where wheel contact is lost, especially on long frames;
b. house dust, maybe some aerosolized grease or other matter, but mostly dust; and
c. dirty pickup tires and/or wipers;
I was surprised to discover, myself, that the oxidation of N/S rail, such as it is, is semi-conductive. This could be a problem of choking the requirement of a decoder metering at a certain rate and not being able to keep up with the demands of the throttle inputs because it can't get the power it needs. Maybe an engineer could shed light on that. But, if the oxide is semi-conductive, it should still transmit some voltage.
If the oxide is indeed a problem, then the only way any of us can rid ourselves of the plague is to debride it...scrub it away. That can't be done with wipes and any fluid I know except maybe nitric acid, and good luck with that if you choose that route.
So, as I thought we had pretty much established years ago, we need successive scrubbing with finer grits until we come to a polishing stage, which a steel washer will do for us. Either ways, it's scrubbing...elbow grease.
Thereafter, I would use the top three fluids listed in that ezine article next door four years ago: kerosene, WD-40 Contact Cleaner, or CRC Contact Cleaner Protectant, and the only after all the hard work had been done. A coating of these three should buy one several years of trouble-free railing, unless the house is dusty.
The components of nickel-silver are nickel, copper, and zinc.
Please compare the conductivity of the oxides of the three above metals with that of the conductivity of the alloy metal. Whether or not the oxides are semi-conductors or not, what is important is the conductivity compared to the alloy. If the conductivity is 1%, then we might expect a rather nasty drop in available voltage. I suspect the conductivity is FAR below 1%.
The extent of oxidation and its impact on model train operation is not settled.
Consider that I have track that was installed 10 years ago, that has never seen an abrasive. It has only been wiped down with paper towels, with or without alcohol. It has been kept in unconditioned space.
And yet.
Trains run just fine on it.
No Bright Boy.
No special oils, like Wahl's Clipper Oil or transmission fluid.
Just clean dry unabraded rail.
Truly a wonder, is it not?
richhotrain Oh no, not another thread on dirty rail causing stalls! The basement is unfinished...
The basement is unfinished...
But, I do encounter stalls, especially at slow speeds, on sidings. So, yesterday, I took a closer look at my sidings of which there are several inside my large passenger station where sidings run up against my large freight houses. Upon closer look, nothing was obvious, no streaks of black gunk, nothing. The loco wheels were clean, no signs of black gunk there either. But, I did notice a slight "glaze" on the rails. Oxidation? I could have run my CMX car or a piece of cloth soaked in denatured alcohol, but I conveniently grabbed my Bright Boy eraser and went over the sidings which quickly produced bright, shiny rails. That did it. My best guess is that the lesser used sidings gives oxidation a better chance to work than on the mainlines. Your thoughts? Rich
But, I do encounter stalls, especially at slow speeds, on sidings. So, yesterday, I took a closer look at my sidings of which there are several inside my large passenger station where sidings run up against my large freight houses.
My thought is that you have a dust problem. Dust would not show as "black gunk". It would show as "...a slight "glaze" on the rails."
In my opinion.
Of course, a Bright Boy can remove that, too. Though you probably should wipe the rails down to pick up any grit left behind.
Hi Ed
They're having their annual 5 year interest-free financing program on Platinum Rail at Goodman Rail Supply again. Thought I'd just bring it up in case you missed that sale 3 years ago
7j43kConsider that I have track that was installed 10 years ago, that has never seen an abrasive. It has only been wiped down with paper towels, with or without alcohol. It has been kept in unconditioned space. And yet. Trains run just fine on it. No Bright Boy. No special oils, like Wahl's Clipper Oil or transmission fluid. Just clean dry unabraded rail.
I've never understood why applying a liquid solvent based substance on a rail would keep it clean.
I have always used alcohol, in part, because it dries quickly. Clean and wipe, dries immediately.
The dirt I find on my rails is easily removed with the alcohol.
I've never gotten hardened crud that needs an abrasive to remove, nor understand what the substance would be or how it got there.
I tried the ATF thing just to see. Didn't seem to hurt anything but yet, intuitively, an oily substance on a surface is going to make dust stick, and the track dirtier, IMO.
Water Level Route John-NYBW I don't doubt that a Bright Boy causes scratches on the railheads. I am skeptical of the claim this has a detrimental effect. I have flextrack on my current layout that I've had for 20+ years, used on multiple layouts, and cleaned with a bright boy countless times. I currently have to clean my rails after ballasting and the occasional spot cleaning. I have had to clean the whole of my layout a grand total of once since it's been up, and I hadn't been running trains for months leading into that instance, and for the most part it was okay. My current layout has been up for 6 or 7 years in an unfinished, unconditioned basement with no ceiling, bare concrete floor, etc. I've had layouts up in far better and far worse locations with some needing frequent track cleaning, others not so much. Either way my heavily used, heavily cleaned with a bright boy flex track that is on my layout performs just as well as the new flextrack I needed when I built it.
I have flextrack on my current layout that I've had for 20+ years, used on multiple layouts, and cleaned with a bright boy countless times. I currently have to clean my rails after ballasting and the occasional spot cleaning. I have had to clean the whole of my layout a grand total of once since it's been up, and I hadn't been running trains for months leading into that instance, and for the most part it was okay. My current layout has been up for 6 or 7 years in an unfinished, unconditioned basement with no ceiling, bare concrete floor, etc. I've had layouts up in far better and far worse locations with some needing frequent track cleaning, others not so much. Either way my heavily used, heavily cleaned with a bright boy flex track that is on my layout performs just as well as the new flextrack I needed when I built it.
My layout room is pretty much the same as yours. My biggest problem with dirty rails is that I am only running trains from about October to April. Once golf season begins in Ohio, I just don't find time to spend in the layout room. That means almost 6 months with no activity. When I return, the rails need cleaning and the track eraser is the fastest way to do it. I used a Bright Boy for years but this past year I discovered another Walthers eraser that's a bit longer and not quite as abrasive. I gave it a try and it works as well as the Bright Boy. The added length allows me to turn it sideways and clean two yard tracks at a time. It is just long enough to reach all four rails. Once cleaned, my track runs just fine until the next layoff.
Track fiddler Hi Ed They're having their annual 5 year interest-free financing program on Platinum Rail at Goodman Rail Supply again. Thought I'd just bring it up in case you missed that sale 3 years ago TF
TF,
Thanks, but I'm gonna wait until they have another sale. That stuff ain't cheap, ya know; so that sale price REALLY makes a difference!
The one 3 years ago: it was all sold out by the time I got there. Must be pretty good stuff, if so many people want it.
I know it might be a technical challenge, but I think they could really lower the price if they line-welded a platinum top onto a nickel-silver bottom. We only run trains on the top of the rail, after all.
How's the stuff working out on YOUR layout? I assume you're making your own switches--same question--how'd that turn out?
I blame myself for any controversary that I may have created by suggesting oxidation as the cause. But, I did put a question mark after the word "oxidation".
Whatever that "glaze" is on the rails, the Bright Boy did the trick. Locomotives no longer stall when running on the sidings.
All in good fun Rich Everything tarnishes to some extent, ...even me
7j43k TF, Thanks, but I'm gonna wait until they have another sale. That stuff ain't cheap, ya know; so that sale price REALLY makes a difference! The one 3 years ago: it was all sold out by the time I got there. Must be pretty good stuff, if so many people want it. I know it might be a technical challenge, but I think they could really lower the price if they line-welded a platinum top onto a nickel-silver bottom. We only run trains on the top of the rail, after all. How's the stuff working out on YOUR layout? I assume you're making your own switches--same question--how'd that turn out? Ed
So is this the end of the discusion or is someone going to run an experiment?
rrebell So is this the end of the discusion or is someone going to run an experiment?
What do you have in mind?
richhotrain...That said, the portion of the layout with most of the sidings sits directly below the kitchen. We do prepare zucchini in a deep fryer. So, you think that is the problem?...
Yeah, especially if the kitchen floor is open steel grating.
My first layout had Atlas brass rails on fibre ties, and it was in an unfinished basement.If I wanted to run trains, the first job was to clean the track. I used a crayon of jeweller's rouge, which worked well and left no scratches.On a later layout, with nickel-silver rails, it required far less cleaning, and for that, I used fairly fine sandpaper (1200grit) wrapped around a block of wood.
For my current layout, started in 1989, I use a mildly abrassive block meant for dressing contact points (like those in the distributor of an older car or on/off ones in electric motors). About the only time it's necessary is if there's glue on the rails from scenery work or if I'm cleaning used track or turnouts donated by friends. Every year or two, I use my shop vac to vacuum the track, using either the brush attachment (in open areas) or the crevice tool (in restricted areas).
My layout room is mostly finished, with all walls drywalled and painted and a suspended ceiling. The floor is bare concrete, with little to no dust, and gets vaccuumed regularly (especially after my "tree-making sessions"). I never sweep it.The room is unheated (if visitors are coming, I do use a portable electric heater if the outdoor temperatures are particularly low). A dehumidifier is in-use year round, and while the rest of the house (main and second floor) is air conditioned in the summer, it's not needed (or wanted) in the basement.
Wayne
Good night or good morning
Well, This type of discussion can be interesting as this one has been. They ain't boring, that's for sure. Sometimes they seem to go in circles though.
I have a few theories but consider them more of a strong belief from experience of the type of things I know from what I have seen.
Number one is the fact that if you take a circle and put it on a plane, the surface contact area is very minimal. The same as our models wheels in contact with the rails. The contact is quite minut so the continuity is relatively poor. A wheel in motion greatly minimizes that contact as well.
A couple of wires twisted together in a junction box has far superior continuity compared to this. They are two circles in contact but contacted together in a spiral with a lot more surface area, also with provided pressure of the twist providing better continuity.
Most of the problem with dirty track has to do with the flow of electricity, but more realistically from the lack of. Lack of continuous constant ideal contact between the two surface areas. The twisted wires have (constant) contact but the rolling wheels on our rails does not.
Knob and tube and also aluminum wiring just to name a few was out-lawed for continuity issues among other reasons. I'm not going to get into all that but the problems were disasters waiting to happen and they did.
Have you ever seen two wires that shorted out in a junction box because someone didn't twist them before they put the wire cap on. The wire cap is melted to oblivion and the wires are black as the Ace of Spades from the arcing.
Because of the poor continuity between the wheels of our locomotives and the rails, what happens is nano arcs are created every millisecond the continuity is broke. Basically the exact same thing as arc welding (where the crevice separation occures under the rolling wheel), only on a microscopic scale. These nano arcs create microscopic pits in both the rails and the wheels of our locomotives. The more it happens the more the byproduct of this builds on our rails until you clean them again. Pits and surface blemishes also oxidize at a faster rate.
Next time you're at a welding shop, swoop your hand across one of their stainless steel work tables and look at your hand. The welding shop may be a much bigger scale of what's happening on our model railroads. But I'll guarantee you it's much of the same black gunk as the two black lines on your finger of the white glove test.
Thanks for listening
My ABA set of "F" units were running steady, pulling 15 Rapido coaches all day long. Third day in I noticed a little light flicker so gassed up the CMX and took it for a three-lap spin. Flicker gone, good for another 10 months of trouble-free railroading. The amount of time you guys spend talking about this makes me think you all work for the Government.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMAN The amount of time you guys spend talking about this makes me think you all work for the Government.
The amount of time you guys spend talking about this makes me think you all work for the Government.
doctorwayne richhotrain ...That said, the portion of the layout with most of the sidings sits directly below the kitchen. We do prepare zucchini in a deep fryer. So, you think that is the problem?... Yeah, especially if the kitchen floor is open steel grating.
richhotrain ...That said, the portion of the layout with most of the sidings sits directly below the kitchen. We do prepare zucchini in a deep fryer. So, you think that is the problem?...