Simon and others,
Thanks for answering the coal vs wood question. I'm glad that it would have used coal because all of the details that I bought for the backhead are for coal fired units. All I have to do now it try to find a diagram of an early backhead so I can figure out what goes where. I'll start with the Precision Scale parts catalogue.
Any input would be appreciated.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Track fiddlerI skimmed through your three pages of thread looking to see if there is any kind of a plan. Didn't see one.
Hi TF,
Yes I did do a plan. I'm glad I did because I was able to see where necessary changes should be made. I used 3rd PlanIt to do the schematics, and, after a bit of trial and error, I was able to print the plans to scale. That made it really easy to calculate what size the various components needed to be.
Here are a couple of the drawings. Click on the pictures to enlarge them if you wish:
This is the first attempt:
This is the final drawing. The front blades have been lengthened, and the rear of the body has been extended by four feet (Bear's suggestion). The cupola has also been enlarged. The proportions look much better. Keep in mind that the plough body is 14' tall excluding the cupola:
These are the parts for the gearbox that will drive the rotary blades. The assembled gearbox is on the right, and the the rest are the parts that have to be made from brass. The front views show the flat part before bending and the side views show the parts after being formed. Some of the screw holes will be elongated so that I can adjust the mesh of the worm and worm gear. On the left you can see the drive shaft as it enters the gearbox through a universal joint. The motor is inside the boiler (not shown):
See if you can figure this one out. It is the front view of the plough showing some of my notes. No, I do not work to four decimal tolerances! That's just what the calculator said. Do you know what the lines represent?
I love 3rd PlanIt!!! I have been able to use it for so many things aside from designing layouts.
Cheers!!
Excellent work so far Dave!
My guess is that coal would be more prototypical. According to C. Churcher:
https://churcher.crcml.org/Articles/Article2007_04.html#:~:text=It%20is%20doubtful%20whether%20CN,to%20coal%20by%20about%201900.
most Canadian locomotives would have been converted to coal by about 1900. I assume ploughs would have been converted at the same time given that they would use the same energy sources. I don't think that fire would have been an issue after a snow fall...
Simon
hon30critter Hey, look at this! It's an oddball rotary snow plough kit! Well, almost. There are a few bits still to make. I'm not sure whether to use coal or wood as the fuel. The plough was built in 1900. What do you think? I will have to winterize the tender by installing wooden covers over the fuel load. More soon. Cheers!! Dave
Hey, look at this! It's an oddball rotary snow plough kit! Well, almost. There are a few bits still to make.
I'm not sure whether to use coal or wood as the fuel. The plough was built in 1900. What do you think? I will have to winterize the tender by installing wooden covers over the fuel load.
More soon.
That's lookin good Dave!
How much will you be selling these kits for???? Jason Shron WATCH OUT!!!!
Of course, I want the first kit off the production line.
As far as the coal or wood question goes, looking at the stack on the roof I would think they are burning coal. I would think the sparks from a wood burner would be a fire hazard, remembering the plough is made out of wood.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Sweet!
It always looks so interesting when the parts are laid out on the mat. Very cool Dave, especially when most all of the parts were made from scratch. I like those pointy ribs you made on the blade skids
You know, Before asking a silly question, I skimmed through your three pages of thread looking to see if there is any kind of a plan. Didn't see one. Did you draw any kind of a plan Dave, or do you have a vision in your head and just winging it as you go along? Many times I Wing-It on some projects and sometimes those can be the best ones.
Looking good man
TF
In front are the partially assembled bits for the stationary blades. The horizontal (bottom) blade is on the left and the vertical blade is on the right. Next are the side walls and the parts that will be the outer sides of the rotary blade enclosures. Above that is the roof. I have to extend the roof a bit so you can see the extension bits to the right of the roof. To the left of the roof are the original doors from the Accurail kit. I'm not sure if I can use them because they aren't the right dimensions, and they are too thick as well. At the top is the frame. I should have flipped it over to show the details on the bottom. It's nothing fancy, just the Accurail brake rigging. The weight has been glued in place. To the right are the rotary blade veins and above that is the geared motor assembly which I may or may not use. It will fit but I'm kind of bent on making my own gearbox. Above that is the boiler that is in the process of being repaired because I messed it up with too much solvent.
Here are a couple of close up shots of the stationary blades partially assembled. I got the bottom blade ribs fairly accurate the first time, but it took multiple attempts to get the vertical blade ribs even close to being the same size and shape. Once one side of the blade has dried I'm going to try to use a sanding block to get the open side of the ribs lined up properly. Otherwise the blade will not be straight and that would bother me to no end!
I managed to score a metal Mantua old timer tender body circa 1880 for a reasonable price. It will do nicely. I'm not sure whether to use coal or wood as the fuel. The plough was built in 1900. What do you think? I will have to winterize the tender by installing wooden covers over the fuel load.
Water Level RouteI'm loving following along on your build. Neat project!
Thanks for your interest Mike!
I'm still waiting for parts so that is holding me up a bit. I'm also still trying to figure out how to make the stationary horizontal and vertical front blade assembly removeable so I can get at the rotary blade mechanism. I've started to build the housings that surround the rotary blades. I am going to take it one step at a time (hopefully most of them will be forward!) and figure it out as I go. I think it will be easier to solve the issue when I can see the actual parts going together.
A minor setback Dave. I'm loving following along on your build. Neat project!
Mike
Ooops!
I put too much Tamiya putty on the boiler assembly (which was coming along nicely) and it went a bit soft on me. I also added a second layer of 0.010" styrene to the inside and probably used too much liquid glue to secure it in place. That caused it to distort a bit. I will leave it alone for two or three more days to re-harden and then I can correct the distortions with some sanding and a bit more putty.
I always do this to myself. I have no patience. I can't seem to let things dry properly before I attack them again.
I would say "live and learn", except apparently I can't learn!
Here are a couple of progress photos:
This my first attempt at scratchbuilding a firebox/boiler. I'm using 0.010" styrene. It is relatively easy to form a cylinder just by rolling it around an X-acto knife handle. I don't think I have the proportions quite right yet, and the joints are not quite vertical. Once I get it properly smoothed out and puttied where necessary, I will install some bands to see it they hide the imperfections:
Here is the boiler before I started to file the joints down. This picture also shows the widened frame. I added 0.160" to either side. My reasoning was that the plough would have been wider than a standard freight car so the there would be some clearance between the snow bank and the cars. I measured one of my Russel snow ploughs and came out at about 10 scale feet. The rotary plough will be about 10' 9" wide:
Ed (gmpullman) suggested that I look at geared printer motors to drive the blades, so I bought one to see if it might work. They are quite cheap. The gear assembly is just a bit wider than what I want, but that is not a deal killer. The drive shafts don't rotate particularly fast, but that might be a good thing because it will lessen any vibrations caused by the blades not being perfectly balanced. I tested the blade drums on the motor and while they wobble a bit, they are quite close to being centered on the shafts. The wobble will be easy to correct.
I'm still going to build my own gear box just for the fun of it.
I just placed an order with Precision Scale for a whole bunch of detail parts for the plough. Before I placed the order I went through my parts bins and I was able to find many things that I need for the build. That saved me about $50.00 USD.
Just a quick update (Ya, right! As if I ever make my posts short):
The NWSL parts still have not arrived so I can't do anything on the gearbox.
Thanks to Simon (snjroy), I was able to find a thread authored by RDG Casey showing how he uses styrene to heavily modify stock steam locomotives. I was looking specifically at how to build the firebox/boiler assembly and RDG Casey's thread has given me a clear understanding of how to do it. Here is RDG Casey's thread:
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/255180.aspx
Here is my thread asking for help remembering RDG Casey's forum name:
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/291666/3393801.aspx#3393801
A couple of other options were mentioned in my thread. One was to use a donor locomotive and the other was to use a 3D casting from Shapeways. I tried several times to buy 4-4-0 Old Timers on eBay, but each time the price went higher than what I was willing to pay. Part of the problem is the shipping cost regardless of whether it comes from the US or Canada. The Shapeways boilers didn't appeal to me for the same reason.
Another issue with buying a pre-made boiler is that I have to be able to fit an electric motor inside it. The motor I have is 5/8" in diameter x about 1 3/4" long including the flywheel. The length isn't an issue but I want the diameter to be as small as the motor will permit.
In the other thread, Pete (wrench567) suggested that I have a look at Bowser and Precision Scale for detail parts. Bowser was a bit of a bust because half the parts I wanted were sold out. In contrast, Precision Scale had everything I could possibly desire. I could easily spend $200.00 Cdn if I were to go nuts with the detailing, and I might just be nuts enough to do it! The backhead will be visible in the finished model and using Precision Scale's cab interior kit #3704 would give me all the details I could possibly want. There are a few items in the kit that would not be applicable in my case, but buying the necessary parts would cost more than $100.00 USD. The 3704 kit is $74.00 USD. The rest of the costs are things like a pair of twin cylinder Shay engines which I will use to mimic the upright steeple compound engines in the original plough, ladders for the side of the shell, a base for the smoke stack, a steam dome and a smokebox cover, plus shipping and exhange.
Before I spend all that money I will make sure I can get the blade system working properly.
I got a note from NWSL on Friday confirming that they were able combine two orders into one to save me some significant shipping charges. I have a bad habit of placing an order and then realizing a day or two later that I need more stuff. Call me scatterbrained! Anyhow, I had managed to do exactly that with NWSL and they were kind enough to combine the orders to save me about $20.00 Cdn in shipping costs.
Great guys!!
Hi guys,
Just to bring you up to date, I am still waiting for a shipment from NWSL before I can move ahead. I need the NWSL parts to make the gearbox, and until I see the worm, worm gear and bushings assembled I can't calculate the exact dimensions for the gear box housing. Until I know that I can't start make the housing parts nor can I design the surrounding bits like the stationary plough blades and the structure around the rotating blades.
The parts should be here soon.
doctorwayneIf I'm not mistaken, Dave, BC Robotics offers some similar kits, and their shipping costs are quite reaonable, too.
Hi Wayne,
The one I have ordered has dual 90 degree output shafts. I appears to be smaller than either of the similar motors offered by BC Robotics.
One of the challenges I face is that the gear box has to be quite narrow. I estimate that the plough is about 10' wide and the rotary blades are about 3' wide each. If I make the plough 10' wide (1 3/8") and the blades 3' wide each (7/16" x 2 = 7/8") I only have 3 1/2' (1/2") available for the gear housing, fixed walls, bearings, thrust washers etc. I calculate that the gear housing assembly will be about 3/8" wide so that leaves me with 1/8" for the fixed walls between the blades and the gearbox.
I also have to figure out how to make the fixed blades so that they can be installed with the rotary blades in place. Once the rotary blade system is assembled and balanced I do not intend to take it apart.
This is off topic a bit, but something that fascinates me are the skills needed by watch makers. By comparison to their work, my stuff looks like I'm working with a pick axe and a sledge hammer!
hon30critterI have ordered one to see how suited it is to the purpose. It might be a bit too wide, but for the price it's worth checking it out. I found one that operates at 12 volts and 136 rpm.
If I'm not mistaken, Dave, BC Robotics offers some similar kits, and their shipping costs are quite reaonable, too.
Wayne
gmpullmanI wonder if a gear assembly like these would work? Right Angle Printer Drive.
Hi Ed,
I have ordered one to see how suited it is to the purpose. It might be a bit too wide, but for the price it's worth checking it out. I found one that operates at 12 volts and 136 rpm.
I wonder how noisy it will be with all metal gears?
Thanks for the lead.
doctorwayneI'm not meaning to rain on your parade, Dave, but I wonder how effective those side-discharge plows were. I can understand that they'd likely do okay in open areas, but in the mountains, where the drifts can be extremely deep, would they have had the ability to throw the snow over those trackside drifts. Based on all of your earlier projects, I have no doubts that you'll come up with a superbly-done model...my question is about the efficacy of the prototype.
You are not raining on my parade at all! I think your conclusions are quite correct. That's part of what attracted me to the plough. It is as much a novelty as an actual plough. I think I read somewhere that they were fairly effective as long as the forward speed could be maintained above 6 mph, but the prototype busted an engine frame on one of its trial runs, and the blades do look flimsy even though they were quite thick.
Thank you for your confidence in my meager modelling skills. I enjoy this part of modelling as much as running trains.
I wonder if a gear assembly like these would work?
Right Angle Printer Drive.
Yes, only 12 RPM but you could probably jack that up a little, although I don't suppose you'd want the slinger turning all that fast on the model.
This is just an example, there are many more like this.
[edit] The model I showed was up to 6V. but there are others rated at 12V.
Good Luck, Ed
I'm not meaning to rain on your parade, Dave, but I wonder how effective those side-discharge plows were. I can understand that they'd likely do okay in open areas, but in the mountains, where the drifts can be extremely deep, would they have had the ability to throw the snow over those trackside drifts.
Based on all of your earlier projects, I have no doubts that you'll come up with a superbly-done model...my question is about the efficacy of the prototype.
richhotrainWell, in that case, Dave, please cancel my pre-order.
Sorry Rich. I guess that if you want one you'll have to do the work yourself! At least if you follow my thread you will be saved from making all the goofs that I have.
By the way, speaking of goofs, when I placed the order with NWSL for the proper sized drive components, I forgot to order the U-joints. I'm hoping that they can combine the two orders. Shipping to Canada is expensive.
Now it's 'one step forward - three steps back'!
hon30critter I have no intentions of making multiple ploughs. Dave
I have no intentions of making multiple ploughs.
Rich
Alton Junction
OvermodBill Clouser (who was nominally a 'traction' modeler) was famous in the pages of MR as one of the first, if not the first, to use RTV-silicone moldmaking and epoxy casting of model railroad components. I first came upon this in the very early '70s and it had a dramatic effect on me at the time... he demonstrated the method in a classic Jack Kirby fashion by making a cast of a phonograph record that was said to play with reasonable fidelity.
Hi Overmod,
Thanks for the explanation.
I'm not sure I understand what benefit I would gain by making a casting. In order to make a casting (copy) you have to have an original, correct? I am making an 'original' (two actually - the blades are mirror images of each other) so why wouldn't I just use those. I have no intentions of making multiple ploughs.
hon30critterWhat does 'Clouser' refer to?
Bill Clouser (who was nominally a 'traction' modeler) was famous in the pages of MR as one of the first, if not the first, to use RTV-silicone moldmaking and epoxy casting of model railroad components. I first came upon this in the very early '70s and it had a dramatic effect on me at the time... he demonstrated the method in a classic Jack Kirby fashion by making a cast of a phonograph record that was said to play with reasonable fidelity.
(Now, I confess that when I was a small child, I had a book about famous inventors, one of whom was George Washington Carver -- he of the practical bulletin with 105 recipes containing peanuts. Apparently at one point, the book said, he arranged a multi-course dinner in which all the courses were made out of peanuts ... I was in awe: think of it. Steak, beans, fish, sauce... all perfect, all peanuts!
It actually did not occur to me much, much later, and in much the way children learn about Santa Claus, that the dishes might not have been entirely high-fidelity... or that record of Clouser's, either. But in both cases the actual point of the exercise was impressive.
OvermodDave, you are planning to use the rotors as patterns for 'loaded' epoxy castings a la Clouser, right? Rather than try bravura soldering to craft something insanely difficult to true and balance at the same time, that will bang out of either true or balance as soon as a front corner of the car runs up against or encounters something?
My intention has always been to make the blades out of brass. Balancing them will be a challenge for sure, but not impossible. I already have the hubs drilled on center (or at least very close to center). I think that the bigger balance challenge will be getting the weight equalized, but that can be accomplished by applying small amounts of solder where needed.
What does 'Clouser' refer to?
OvermodI suspect your mental health and well-being will thank you.
If I were to take the easy way out, that would certainly have a negative effect on my mental health. I have done these sorts of things before. The critter in my avatar is completely scratch built except for the motor, drive line and wheels/trucks. That was one of the first bits of modelling that I did when I got into the hobby.
Hi rrebell,
Using 3D printing would be the easy way out, and quite frankly, very boring IMHO. I didn't get into this project because I wanted something easy. Just the opposite in fact. If it turns out to be a wobbly, shaky mess then it will become a yard queen, or I will just drop the voltage to the point where the blades turn slowly.
"Whether you say 'I can' or you say 'I can't', you're right..."
Just out of curiosity, why dont you 3-D print the blade assembly and add the struts with wire?
hon30critterTell me what you think.
In a pinch make the rotors in two non-overlapping pieces and cement them together, then use wire or pins or whatever for the struts.
I suspect your mental health and well-being will thank you.
Track fiddlerI'm just screwing around with ya but you know my words are true Dave. You're still that young Champion you have always been. You might have only forgotten where you left off
'Champion' is hardly the word to describe me. I make mistakes like getting sizes wrong far too often! I should learn to be more precise, but I have far more fun just winging it. Yes, I have wasted some money, but I choose to look at the bright side. I now have a whole new set of drive shafts, gears and bearings for future use.
Well, ..I never got into the..
and drawings of all that/this en that at any given moment in time.
If you need to Get-er-Done to build something, ... Kind of like that Revell model but the directions flew over your left shoulder and you built it as is per pictures and you Got-er Done like a Champion.
I'm just screwing around with ya but you know my words are true Dave. You're still that young Champion you have always been.
You might have only forgotten where you left off
I got my shipment from NWSL on Sunday. Unfortunately, as soon as I had a look at the parts, I realized that they were all the wrong size. I had measured the diameter of the motor shaft incorrectly at 1.5mm. It is 2.0mm so I just finished placing an order for the correct sized parts and now we have to wait again.
I would be able to build the gear box housing except for the fact that I can't find my heavy duty tin snips, so I have a set of those on order as well. I also decided to invest in a decent set of center punches which I have lacked for the past 50 years!
A few posts ago I made the comment that I was going "two steps forward - one step back". I'll have to change that to "one step forward - two steps back". I'm still having fun though!