I like the roof walks and think you should leave them on. These machines were not out to win beauty contests. A little dirt and grime always help with the finished product.
I also think with the heat of that steam engine under it, the roof would remain clear of snow and ice and would be safe to walk on most of the time with or without.
If you looked at ten copies of a piece of equipment there is always a good chance there may be noticeable differences between them. In your plows case, I think it is right, however you do it.
Of course, if photo ops were a regular occurrence roof walks might make the health and safety people happy.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I don't think that they would have roofwalks as it would be just something else to catch the snow and ice. Remember that the only reason for being for this was large amounts of snow. The ladders were proubly there more for maintance in the down time.
gmpullmanI think the roof walks will look just fine once they are painted and weathered with a dusting of soot that will blend in with the surrounding roof surface.
Thanks Ed and Mike!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Mike
I think the roof walks will look just fine once they are painted and weathered with a dusting of soot that will blend in with the surrounding roof surface.
There were certainly times when the plow may have been completely buried in a "trench" of snow and crewmwmbers would have had to gain access through one of the cupola windows. Cupola access to the roof was quite common in the era, a carryover from the brakemen having to tie down brakes pre-Westinghouse.
Regards, Ed
I got a couple of things done tonight.
One was to add grab rails to the roof of the cupola. It took me way longer than it should have because my hands were shaking. Even when I tried to brace my hands against the workbench they still shook. Very frustrating!
The other thing I did was to add roof walks. I thought they would add some interest but, now that I see them in place, I am questioning my decision. No doubt they will look better when everything is painted, but I would like your opinions. There is no indication of them on the prototype, but if they installed a ladder to get to the roof, wouldn't walkways be a logical addition? Please tell me what you think. If you think they are ugly then I will remove them:
hon30critterWhat better ways?
Once again you are criticizing my work without bothering to explain.
I find it very frustrating when you post things with no references. If you aren't willing to do that, then perhaps you should refrain from posting on this thread.
I have done enough chasing of your fancy terms.
I will not add any more because I don't want to cause any chilling or distracting effect on Dave in HIS OWN thread.
gmpullmanI like the lagged steam pipe and the cylinder drain cocks
Thanks Ed.
The lagged pipes are from Precision Scale. I combined a couple of different steam pipes. I had to do some cutting, bending and soldering to get the correct fit.
I think I have spent more than enough time on the boiler/engine details so I'm going to move on. I have made the vertical stationary blade removable so I can remove the drive system should that ever be necessary. I'm trying to figure out the details for the cupola interior. I'm going to use a simple whistle system for the pilot to communicate with the engineer and the pusher locomotives so that should simplify the cupola interior somewhat. I also need to add some piping and linkages to the backhead details, and I have to figure out where to install an air pump and tank. The tank will probably end up on the rear of the tender. Lots of other stuff to do too including painting and decals, and DCC.
That is some fancy piping work, Dave!
I like the lagged steam pipe and the cylinder drain cocks. I have done some of that spiral lagging before with wet asbestos "ribbon" wrapped and tied with wire.
Yours looks very convincing
Cheers, Ed
OvermodIf the point is to raise the safeties and the whistle above the roof... there are better ways to do that.
What better ways?
Once again you are criticizing my work without bothering to explain. I would politely ask that, if you are going to make comments, that you explain those comments, preferably in layman's terms. I find it very frustrating when you post things with no references. If you aren't willing to do that, then perhaps you should refrain from posting on this thread. I have done enough chasing of your fancy terms.
OvermodWhy do you have the external steam feed so low on the dome?
Because I don't know what I'm doing!?!
Does this look any better?
Why do you have the external steam feed so low on the dome?
If the point of the high dome is to limit carryover, the steam pipe should come out of the dome high up. If the point is to raise the safeties and the whistle above the roof... there are better ways to do that.
Meanwhile you'd see MUCH less heat loss if you kept the dry pipe and headers intact, arranged as they were in the original locomotive boiler, and just have the steam pipe emerge from the bottom of the smokebox and dip to a floor trap before connecting. This could be true for a tall dome, too, but the throttle linkage would have to be raised for 'best results'
I see you went back to transverse engines and presumed chain drive. That made sense on the original, and it makes sense here even if you have to hide the motor shaft...
I made up the steam exhaust pipe that will feed the steam back to the smoke box. Once again I'm not sure if it is realistic but at this point, quite frankly, I could care less!! I can't show a picture because all that you would see is a bunch of pipes with bends in them.
I will post pics when I have the bits assembled enough that they will provide a clear picture of how the steam is routed through my oddball snow plow.
Water Level RouteDave, this is coming along really nicely!
Thanks Mike, much appreciated!
Dave, this is coming along really nicely! I also agree on moving the engines closer to the doors. Show those babies off!
I got something done tonight that had been challenging me for some time. I was able to make up and install (temporarily) the main steam line from the boiler to the engines. I'm going to move the engines closer to the boiler just so that they can be seen better through the side doors.
I think it turned out pretty good, but if you want to get critical, double click on the the photo to blow it up. You will be able to see all of my sins, errors and omissions:
You can also see that the boiler now sits flush with the floor.
I have an idea about how to get the exhaust steam back to the smoke box. Whether it will be realistic or not remains to be seen. I'll post a picture when it is in place
Last night I decided to attach the steam dome and the smoke stack to the boiler. Getting things lined up with the holes in the roof was a bit tricky, but eventually I thought I had them in the correct locations.
You know how pictures always tell a thousand words? Well, I was all proud of myself so I took a picture:
It's pretty obvious what's wrong. The boiler is crooked and it no longer sits flush with the floor.
I will have to take it all apart again which is going to be difficult because I always use too much glue. Then I have to adjust the electric motor mount. I had added an extension to it so I could move the boiler towards the back of the plow. The extension inadvertently raised the motor/gearbox frame causing the boiler, which fits tightly around the motor, to sit too high. That allowed it to tilt out of alignment with the floor.
I don't mind having to do the work, but what I am really afraid of is that when I try to separate the steam dome and the stack from the boiler, the boiler might get damaged. If they won't pop off easily I'm going to use a bit of heat on the brass parts to see if that weakens the bond. Wish me luck!
Edit: The steam dome and the stack came off of the boiler with only minor damage, thank goodness. I ground down the brass motor mount so it now sits perfectly flat on the floor. There was still a bit of a gap between the boiler and the floor so I filled that in with styrene strips. I have a bit of filing to do to level the bottom of the boiler, but when that is done I will be able to re-attach the stack and the steam dome.
You need to 'siamese' the steam feed so that flow goes into both HP cylinders evenly. Compare the (disastrous!') original "moor's head" -- using the 19th-Century euphemism -- on the James Toleman locomotive (it's in Angus Sinclair's 'Development of the Locomotive Engine').
The steam would enter at the bottom of the white column with a drain cock below to keep condensate out of the engine. It might be wise to depress the piping runs to the cylinders and put small steam traps there. Hydrolock on a vertical engine won't be fun... and I fear those bitty drain cocks are going to steam you out if opened as needed in the winter.
All these steam lines would be heavily lagged for much the same reason the cylinders have those barrel slats. You could certainly lag them in brass, but I'd bet the original would use something cheaper.
You need exhaust of MUCH larger diameter if the LP is to make any real-world power. I do not remember how a Willans engine worked its valve gear, but there would likely be external ports and transfer lines/receivers between the cylinders... as exhaust from the HP on one of these engines has to go promptly to intake on the correct stroke... especially if these are single-acting.
Look at the contemporary drawings of the six-cylinder Willans triple steeple-compound in the original Hellmann locomotive (as I recall they were in Scientific American and a small cut was used in an article in Trains about 50 years ago now. You might also get some ideas from the cutaway illustration of the valve in a type-1 Vauclain Compound... but be sure to have Excedrin and an appropriate chaser handy.
The exhaust technically ought to taper a little going back to the 'front end' in the boiler, and while you're probably not modeling any part of the actual nozzle in the smokebox you'd use either an annular nozzle or some offset design rather than combining into one big central nozzle. (A N&W-style waffle-grate could be made, but it's overkill...)
With a compound engine the steam enters through the smaller cylinder and the exhaust exits from the larger cylinder, so I would say you have already modeled the steam feed.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
BATMAN I think what you have is pretty amazing. Some Micro mark rivets on the boiler and you can call it a day IMO
Hi Brent,
I admit to having become a bit fixated on making the plow look at least plausible so I may be going a bit overboard with the details. I will do rivets definitely! I really want to model the main connections between the boiler and the engines, but I haven't figured that out yet. The engines can't run on wishful thinking!
hon30critterI might rebuild the ash pan so that the doors are close to the outside of the plow
I have decided to leave the ash pan as is and move on to more important stuff like figuring out how to feed the steam to the engines and how to exhaust the steam from the engines.
hon30critterThanks for your much valued input.
Dave, I think what you have is pretty amazing. Some Micro mark rivets on the boiler and you can call it a day IMO.
I have the engines reassembled. They don't look much different but they are better proportioned and the assemble isn't as messy.
New:
Old:
I still haven't figured out where the steam is fed into the engines. Is that what the large pipe that links the two engines is for? There also has to be a place for the steam to exhaust from the cylinders.
I have applied some of the detail to the backhead and firebox. I still have to figure out plumbing and linkages:
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
gmpullmanthere is a copy of the operations of the rotary here that may help clarify some of what is in the Alco booklet:
Hi Ed,
Sorry about the slow response. We have had no internet for two days.
Thanks for all the great information. Much to think about.
Seeing if this works?
Well, I don't seem to be able to embed the document but there is a copy of the operations of the rotary here that may help clarify some of what is in the Alco booklet:
https://books.google.com/books?id=th4PAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA413&lpg=PA413&dq=rotary+snow+plow+operation+cyclopedia&source=bl&ots=65t8ZT21-i&sig=ACfU3U3M9hqIjcbEKQ-5nbpuPIi8MSvqag&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7wZqT7-r4AhXiEVkFHaNZAtYQ6AF6BAgvEAM#v=onepage&q=rotary%20snow%20plow%20operation%20cyclopedia&f=false
There is some discussion regarding whistle signals, duties of the Pilot, etc.
RULES FOR OPERATING THE ROTARY.
1. It requires three men to operate the rotary; a pilot, an engineer and a fireman.
2. One heavy consolidation locomotive, except in most extreme cases, provides sufficient power to push the rotary.
3. As the successful operation of the rotary depends altogether upon the manner in which it is operated, it is therefore essential that the crew of both the rotary and the pusher should be especially trained for that purpose.
4. It is often necessary to operate the rotary for a longer period than it is possible for one crew to continue on duty without being relieved and, therefore, an extra crew should be trained to handle the machine.
5. The responsibility of the operation of both the plow and the plow train should rest upon the pilot, and he should determine the power required to push the rotary in all cases. All running orders should be addressed to the pilot and, in case a conductor is sent with the snow plow train, the running orders should be addressed to both the conductor and the pilot.
6. The rotary should never be coupled ahead of a train, for, if this is done, the inability to start and stop quickly enough might have the result of jamming the plow into a bank and possibly disabling it. Experience proves that it is best to use one heavy engine to push the plow instead of two or more light ones. To successfully operate the rotary, it should
be fed gradually and care should be taken not to buck it into snow drifts.
7. The pilot should operate and control the air brakes on the entire snow-plow train with the engineer's valve in the pilot house.
8. He should also operate and control the flangers and ice cutters, and should be held responsible for their proper working while in service. It has been proven that, with the flangers and ice cutters in proper working order, it is impossible for the rotary to be derailed by snow or ice and, therefore, the necessity of keeping both in proper working order cannot be over-estimated. Before starting out on a trip, the pilot should see that he is provided with extra flanger points and shearing bolts for the ice cutters. He should also see that the ice cutters and flangers are raised when starting from the station, and should examine them whenever the train stops, in order to ascertain if any shearing bolts or flanger points need to be replaced. The flangers should always be raised when running the rotary over a clear rail or in drawing it backward over the line.
9. The steam whistle on the rotary should be used for signalling the engineer on the pusher and, the air whistle for signalling the engineer on the rotary.
10. The engineer on the pusher should never start the train until the pilot has given the proper signal.
11. The pilot should see that the flangers are raised before starting the train, and then give the signal to the engineer on the rotary to start the wheel. The signal to start the train should never be given until the wheel of the rotary has been started and is running in the direction in which the shute is opened.
12. The engineer on the rotary should never take his hand off the throttle lever while the train is in motion.
13. When on a turntable or crossing a bridge or trestle, the wheel of the rotary should never be run.
14. The wheel of the rotary should always be running when the train is in motion, except when going over a bridge or trestle, but both rotary and pusher should be shut off before entering upon a bridge or trestle because of the overhanging weight at each end.
15. The rotary should never be run into a snow bank at a speed of over three or four miles an hour.
16. When within fifty feet of a bank, the pilot should signal the engineer on the rotary ahead, which should be the signal for him to open his throttle and regulate the speed of his wheel with his reverse lever to about one hundred and fifty revolutions per minute. When within about five feet of the bank, the pilot should give the second signal for the rotary to come ahead, and the engineer should then increase the speed of the wheel. When the rotary strikes the snow, the pilot should signal the pusher ahead. If he finds the rotary can stand the full power of the pusher, he should give a second signal to come ahead, which should mean for the engineer on the pusher to put on full power. If the pusher is crowding the rotary too much, the signal should be given to the engineer of the rotary to increase the speed of the wheel, and in case the pusher is still crowding the rotary, the pilot should apply the air brakes quickly to check the pusher. If unable to hold the pusher with the brakes, he should give the signal to the engineer of the pusher to shut off, and he should respond instantly in order to prevent stalling the rotary. When within about ten feet of the end of a drift, the pilot should give the engineer of the rotary the signal to slow down, and, when almost out of the bank, the signal to shut off, which the engineer on the rotary should understand to mean to slow down to the normal speed of the wheel.
17. Should the rotary become stalled, the pilot should at once give the signal to the engineer on the pusher to shut off. He should then raise the flanger and signal the pusher to back up, which the engineer should understand to mean to draw the rotary back only four or five feet from the bank. When again ready to start up, he should signal the engineer on the rotary to come ahead and, when the wheel is running, should give the signal to start the train, at the same instant giving the signal to increase the speed of the wheel. Every time a stop is made in a bank this rule should be carried out.
18. The rotary should never be bucked into a bank from a distance of more than four or five feet, for, if this is done, it is certain to disable the rotary.
19. In case the wheel of the rotary should become blocked with snow, the pilot should stop the train and give the signal to back up four or five feet. Then it is only necessary to loosen the snow between the dium and the scoops, after which the wheel will clear itself.
20. The rotary should not be forced through snow which is deeper than the hood. To do this is dangerous and will result only in serious trouble and delay. When the snow is deeper than the hood of the rotary, the top of the bank should be shoveled off for a distance of ten or fifteen feet before the rotary is brought into operation.
21. In light snow, the wheel of the rotary should not be run above a speed sufficient to throw the snow out of the shute and clear of the tracks.
22. In cleaning side tracks or yards, a signal man should be stationed five or ten feet from the switch which the rotary has to pass, and on the opposite side of the track from which the snow is being thrown. Thus the pilot will be able to know when to raise the flangers and ice cutters.
23. When the rotary is in a bank, the pilot should never reverse the wheel. If it is necessary to reverse the wheel and throw the snow on the opposite side of the track, this should be done while running from one bank to another.
24. The height of water in the boiler should be carefully watched by the engineer on the rotary, as the rate of speed at which the engines are run will throw the water out of the stack if it is allowed to get too high.
25. While in service, steam must never be used on the wheel of the rotary.
Another look at a "naked" rotary:
https://search-bcarchives.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/kamloops-museum-photo-group-beside-one-of-two-canadian-pacific-railway-rotary-snow-ploughs-that-arrived-in-1885-at-mission
and a couple interesting photos here including a wreck or three:
http://www.webpraxis.ab.ca/vrr/_Remarks/Snow_Clearing.shtml
Well, Ed's instructions indicate that the engines will have both a throttle and a reverse. That's going to have implications for how you detail the valve gear on the engines and its control linkage.
Where the 'engineer' will sit while running is going to be an important detail... as will be something I hadn't considered: A device to show the speed of the cutters. I suspect not even a skilled engineer will be able to gauge the wheel shaft rpm from the engine sound.
I had not thought about the gyroscopic torque due to overspeed on bridges. Perhaps there ought to be some kind of isokinetic overspeed brake on the shaft?
I see there is an air whistle to give the engineer signals. I wonder if in addition there should be some indicator like the engine-room telegraph on a ship to confirm basic commands of long duration.
Note that the throttle for the engines ought to be closer than up in that dome: the transient response of the engines that far away would be just awful. That leads me to think the engineer has a 'throttle' lever that is a glorified steam stop, up at the dome, and then some more sensitive variable throttle lever arrangement close to the engines -- which would be adjustable 'in the shop' to balance the engine outputs.
Incidentally, most ashpan arrangements on locomotives have hoppers for greatest storage. Obviously on a locomotive with no trailing truck or a high firebox, these hoppers would be between the wheels, and dump between the rails -- having the plow ash pan rigged similarly would simplify servicing.
A number of engines -- Ed will have pictures -- actually have hoppers on the outside, which is easier to arrange when there is no frame or wheels in the way. If you have a truck pivot or bolster under the firebox area, you'll want outside hoppers and dumping 'both sides' away from the gauge.
what you do NOT want is any ash or cinders being dropped on the railheads... same as for continuous blowdown.
Relooking at those diagrams on page 1, it would appear that the ash pan openings are between the wheels!
Hi Bear,
Having the ashes fall outside of the rails would seem to make sense, but as you and Brent suggested, that doesn't seem to to be the case with the plow on page 1.
However, since the plow on page one is not the plow that I am modeling, and the pictures of the plow that I am modeling don't show any ash pan detail, I think I am free to do as I want. Therefore, I might rebuild the ash pan so that the doors are close to the outside of the plow just so the doors are more visible. If I do so, I will also take into account Overmod's suggestion that the bottom of the ash pan would slope away from the centerline of the plow in order to make the pan easier to empty. That would be an interesting detail, however minor.
I'll let you know what I decide. Right now I'm going to focus on rebuilding the engines and adding details to the boiler.
Thanks for your much valued input.
Dave, IMO I agree that the ash pan is the width of the wheels.
Looking at lots of old photos of different plows and other steam-driven machinery I noticed on some that they had shovels and what look like hoes or rakes attached just under the deck by the ashpan. These may have been to scrape out the ashpan. Maybe this is a detail you could add to the build.