ATLANTIC CENTRALBut Paul is right, it would be massive for manufacturers to make "every roadname", even on generic cars.
Genericized PS-1 boxcars and PS-2 covered hoppers have even larger demands for "every road name" and that doesn't seem to slow anyone down.
I suspect the real hurdle is that passenger modelers tend to be few and far between, and the ones that do exist are rather meticulous in their demands.
n012944 Doughless But in answering his questions, is it safe to say that the simple answer is , no, you don't wait for a manufacturer to build the correct models? At this point in my life, I do. I have scrathbuilt and kitbashed in the past, not anymore. I will add detail to a model that is lacking, but there is not the need for that as much in the past. Doughless You mentioned scratchbuilding, kitbashing, and selling previously purchased models when the producer makes an upgraded model (so you have purchased good enough versions that you now sell.) I still have some stuff that I once considered "good enough". When I was young, a 40' box car was a 40' box car. The internet has permitted me to research models before I buy them. So I still have a few Intermountain or Red Caboose stuff from the 90's that are not correct. They are being replaced. Doughless It sounds like you actually approach the hobby pretty mainstream; looking at the situation totally. Good to know, and I didn't really think that I was that far off of center.
Doughless But in answering his questions, is it safe to say that the simple answer is , no, you don't wait for a manufacturer to build the correct models?
But in answering his questions, is it safe to say that the simple answer is , no, you don't wait for a manufacturer to build the correct models?
At this point in my life, I do. I have scrathbuilt and kitbashed in the past, not anymore. I will add detail to a model that is lacking, but there is not the need for that as much in the past.
Doughless You mentioned scratchbuilding, kitbashing, and selling previously purchased models when the producer makes an upgraded model (so you have purchased good enough versions that you now sell.)
You mentioned scratchbuilding, kitbashing, and selling previously purchased models when the producer makes an upgraded model (so you have purchased good enough versions that you now sell.)
I still have some stuff that I once considered "good enough". When I was young, a 40' box car was a 40' box car. The internet has permitted me to research models before I buy them. So I still have a few Intermountain or Red Caboose stuff from the 90's that are not correct. They are being replaced.
Doughless It sounds like you actually approach the hobby pretty mainstream; looking at the situation totally.
It sounds like you actually approach the hobby pretty mainstream; looking at the situation totally.
Good to know, and I didn't really think that I was that far off of center.
Ok, so simply put, you still play with trains that you've collected in the past, but "upgrade" as the more detailed and accurate models are launched.
Its not like you're sitting at home for years with nothing at all until an RTR version of exactly what you want is built.
- Douglas
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL But Paul is right, it would be massive for manufacturers to make "every roadname", even on generic cars. Sure, it would be massive for manufacturers to "make" every roadname. But, wouldn't there be some way to have paint schemes "available" to make a small run of a specific railroad upon demand?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But Paul is right, it would be massive for manufacturers to make "every roadname", even on generic cars.
But Paul is right, it would be massive for manufacturers to make "every roadname", even on generic cars.
Sure, it would be massive for manufacturers to "make" every roadname. But, wouldn't there be some way to have paint schemes "available" to make a small run of a specific railroad upon demand?
Back in the day, when stuff was still made here, companies like BevBel, Bowser, and others bought undecorated Athearn passenger cars bulk and lettered them for less popular roads or simply paint schemes Athearn did not make.
But again, a generic shorter car with minimal detail.
I will use the B&O for example, from 1930 to 1968 the B&O had at least five different passenger paint schemes depending on how you define them. In 1968 you could still find cars in all five paint schemes.......
Athearn only offered one scheme on each type of car, streamlined and heavyweight, and never really had them correct. So some of these schemes have been offered by others over the years.
The selection and correctness of B&O passenger cars is limited even today.
Sheldon
Alton Junction
NittanyLion Paul3 There's one big problem with your idea of having a generic coach available in "any" paint scheme...namely, there was well over 150 Class I railroads. How many is "any"? All of them? Well, hang on a minute. There aren't 150 railroads to worry about. Vast chunks were paper railroads, subsidiaries, wouldn't have owned the specific category of railcar, or exited the passenger business early.
Paul3 There's one big problem with your idea of having a generic coach available in "any" paint scheme...namely, there was well over 150 Class I railroads. How many is "any"? All of them?
Well, hang on a minute. There aren't 150 railroads to worry about. Vast chunks were paper railroads, subsidiaries, wouldn't have owned the specific category of railcar, or exited the passenger business early.
Well, maybe 150, maybe not, but a review of some NMRA data sheet info, D9h.1, lists 79 lines that offered passenger service as of August 1954. There is nothing in that info to suggest it is a complete list. It is simply a list of major carriers, their official names, heralds, track mileage, and indication of freght, passenger or both.
Sure, even some pretty major freight carriers had minimal passenger service. The Western Maryland only had coaches, combines, baggage, RPO's and two private company cars.
ConCor has 32 different paint schemes currently listed on their 72' streamliners, they use to have at least a dozen more schemes.
And as I keep saying, much of the nations passenger fleet were designs built in very limited quantities, often a quantity of one......
If you count all reporting marks of cars in interchange service, there were way more than 150 railroad "companies" prior to the 60's mergers. Clearly not all those represented passenger carriers.
But in any case, it's a lot more than a dozen or two.....
Paul3There's one big problem with your idea of having a generic coach available in "any" paint scheme...namely, there was well over 150 Class I railroads. How many is "any"? All of them?
n012944,
OK, I will explain how I am more like you on some points, and not at all on other points.
I like well detailed correct models, I have lots of them, some RTR, some built from craftsman kits, some kitbashed or upgraded from lessor products.
Stuff like Kadee, Intermountain (which in the era I model are all pretty good), FoxValley, Spring Mills Depot, Proto2000, F&C, Tichy, and others.
I have some of the Rapido F30 flat cars on preorder.
I already have a bunch of the Walthers flat car you linked to, a model they have made in both kit and RTR for three decades or more. A nice model, but not overly detailed. It is a good model of a GSC cast frame flat car, but VERY FEW of those were ever converted to piggy service. By my standards they are close enough to add some variety to the fleet.
I also have a sizable fleet of Wathers F39 75' cars, a great many lettered PRR.
You mentioned the Athearn car, they are what you see in the photo of the SP cars. It is very generic and not very correct as offered by Athearn. Those shown and many more like them in my fleet have been modified to be more correct, but are still very "generic".
If you compare my photo to actual SP piggy train photos, the effect is pretty good.
I "fix" the Athearn vans to make them more correct. I fix the flat car side rails, I add bridge plates, and put better trucks on them. Some are my paint jobs, some are Athearn paint jobs.
No weathering yet when these photos were taken.
I take no issue with you or anyone who wants better models, as stated above, I have my share.
But here is where we differ. I'm not replacing what I already have deemed acceptable and have invested time and money into.
Will I opt for better cars for future roster additions? Many times yes, sometimes no.
So, that means for me, not EVERY car on the layout needs to be to the highest standard. There is a minimum standard all cars meet, most exceed that by a good margin.
"Your choice. I am not about to spend money on something that is not representative of what one would have seen, just to check a box."
Representitive is very subjective in 1/87 scale........
I have no energy, time or interest in selling off models that I was happy with 25 years ago, and that I am still happy with, just to purchase "better" ones.
Maybe I was more picky (not really), or more informed (and understood the compromises I was accepting), when I made my choices and set my standards back then?
I'm building a layout that requires 1,000 freight cars for an opps session. I'm not starting over buying freight cars.
I have Athearn and Varney metal cars from the 50's and 60's. With a little work they hold up rather well against newer mid grade models.
And I'm not building an 18" deep shelf layout where being the engineer and having your nose 12" from the train is the primary goal. It provides for that goal, but it also provides for "railfan" running, CTC mainline operation, long trains, vast scenic vistas, and a fair amount of non railroad scenery.
And I like building models, so while I do buy RTR in all price ranges, I still build kits, and kitbash stuff.
Passenger cars - I am all in for selective compression, even with my 36" minimum radius curves.
Here is one reason why:
None of my little HO passengers have to jump from car to car across two foot gaps....
All my passenger cars are close coupled at nearly scale distances and have working, touching diaphragms that stay touching. A visual detail more noticable to more people than window arrangements or exact car lengths.
I have some 80' cars, they work fine, but in my view, my fleets of 72' Athearn and ConCor cars look much more realistic and graceful on my selectively compressed curves and crossovers.
If I had 48" minimum curves, I might have been tempted to have more 80'-85' cars, but I'm here now, with a fleet of about 175 passenger cars, and happy.
I have about zero interest in current railroading, fantasy scheme or prototype perfect......
And yes I have my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL which is carefully constructed to be believable, and I also model the B&O, C&O and WESTERN MARYLAND with a moderately high degree of accuracy.
That said, I have never had any desire to try and recreate an actual place. I admire those who pull it off, but it's not my thing.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944That's fine, but what do you do when those models do not exist? Do you scratch build them yourself? That is an option that I have done in the past, along with kit bashing. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you select a different railroad to model? Sigh. Nope ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you select a different era to model? Deeper sigh. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you pay professionals to build the models for you? Anytime you buy a RTR model, you are doing that. ATLANTIC CENTRAL And how close is close enough? Or how wrong is too wrong? As I get older and models get better, I demand more and more. I recently purchased some 40' Tanget box cars that are spot on. It permitted me to sell some Intermountain cars that I had that used to be close enough. Of course, one could ask you the same question. Should model makers stop striving to be accurate? Should we as the customer, be okay with locomotive hoods too wide like older Athearn models? Should we, as customers, stop asking for railroad specific details?
That is an option that I have done in the past, along with kit bashing.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you select a different railroad to model?
Sigh. Nope
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you select a different era to model?
Deeper sigh.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you pay professionals to build the models for you?
Anytime you buy a RTR model, you are doing that.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And how close is close enough? Or how wrong is too wrong?
As I get older and models get better, I demand more and more. I recently purchased some 40' Tanget box cars that are spot on. It permitted me to sell some Intermountain cars that I had that used to be close enough. Of course, one could ask you the same question. Should model makers stop striving to be accurate? Should we as the customer, be okay with locomotive hoods too wide like older Athearn models? Should we, as customers, stop asking for railroad specific details?
Its always interesting to read different points of view. Sheldon has repeated his many times here, so there is not much need to ask him.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Today there seem to be a lot of modelers who will do without rather than run something incorrect? I don't get it either. I model a specific railroad. I want the specific cars that would be found on the railroad. Incorrect models have no interest to me, it is not a fantasy. That's fine, but what do you do when those models do not exist? Do you scratch build them yourself?
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Today there seem to be a lot of modelers who will do without rather than run something incorrect? I don't get it either. I model a specific railroad. I want the specific cars that would be found on the railroad. Incorrect models have no interest to me, it is not a fantasy.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Today there seem to be a lot of modelers who will do without rather than run something incorrect? I don't get it either.
I model a specific railroad. I want the specific cars that would be found on the railroad. Incorrect models have no interest to me, it is not a fantasy.
That's fine, but what do you do when those models do not exist?
Do you scratch build them yourself?
Do you select a different railroad to model?
Do you select a different era to model?
Do you pay professionals to build the models for you?
And how close is close enough? Or how wrong is too wrong?
As I get older and models get better, I demand more and more. I recently purchased some 40' Tanget box cars that are spot on. It permitted me to sell some Intermountain cars that I had that used to be close enough.
Of course, one could ask you the same question. Should model makers stop striving to be accurate? Should we as the customer, be okay with locomotive hoods too wide like older Athearn models? Should we, as customers, stop asking for railroad specific details?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not judging here, I'm asking practical questions? I model the early 50's, and I want a big enough layout to pull realistic length trains. I have the room, the resources, and as I approach retirement, the time. That means I need 100 50's era piggyback flat cars, for one east bound train, one west bound train, and some cars in the piggy yard. Show me the selection of accurate high detail 50's piggyback cars that have been offered RTR, or even in kit form, in the last decade or two?
I'm not judging here, I'm asking practical questions?
I model the early 50's, and I want a big enough layout to pull realistic length trains. I have the room, the resources, and as I approach retirement, the time.
That means I need 100 50's era piggyback flat cars, for one east bound train, one west bound train, and some cars in the piggy yard.
Show me the selection of accurate high detail 50's piggyback cars that have been offered RTR, or even in kit form, in the last decade or two?
As it has already been pointed out, the Walthers cars are a decent 50's piggyback 75' car. Rapido is also taking preorders for PRR's F30 car, which is a 1930s design. The Pennsy started converting them to TOFC service in 1954. I have several on order, although it will be the TTX version that one would see in the 1960's.
https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/freight-cars/ho-scale-prr-f30-flatcar
Walthers 53' mainline car is also a good starting point, although as a Mainline model, it would need some love to get up to my standards. 1955 would be the year those appeared in service, according to Walthers.
https://www.pwrs.ca/announcements/view.php?ID=9251
If I remember correctly, Athearn had a 50' TOFC flat, although I am not sure on the quality of that model.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL They don't really exist. Especially considering that most early 50's piggyback cars were railroad shop conversions of existing flat cars or homebuilt from old boxcar underframes.
They don't really exist. Especially considering that most early 50's piggyback cars were railroad shop conversions of existing flat cars or homebuilt from old boxcar underframes.
See above.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No two railroads did exactly the same thing, and even if I was inclined to scratch build 100 flat cars, detailed documentation is sketchy at best, few drawings, mostly just distant shot old photos.
No two railroads did exactly the same thing, and even if I was inclined to scratch build 100 flat cars, detailed documentation is sketchy at best, few drawings, mostly just distant shot old photos.
There would be no reason to scratch built them, as there are plenty of good cars out there to start with. Of course they would need changes to be made to match the prototype you are looking for, but no need to scratch build.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Please explain my choices?
Please explain my choices?
Again, see above.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Passenger cars are a similar situation on many railroads. Actually, while we have some good info on some cars from the 50's and before, modelers of eras before the 60's would have massive gaps in their rosters if only perfectly documented equipment was allowed/chosen. Please explain your philosophy on this?
Passenger cars are a similar situation on many railroads.
Actually, while we have some good info on some cars from the 50's and before, modelers of eras before the 60's would have massive gaps in their rosters if only perfectly documented equipment was allowed/chosen.
Please explain your philosophy on this?
Lots of ways around this. Brass car sides were a good starting point for those that didn't want to spend the money for a full brass car. There are a lot of 85' passenger cars out there to permit kit bashing them to get what you are looking for. And of course, there is always the option to buy brass.
I also model a popular railroad (PRR) sent in the mid 1960's. It is an issue that I don't really have these days. So I don't really need a philosophy on it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm 64 years old, I've been building and operating model trains for 54 years, and I hope to build and enjoy one last layout for the rest of my time here. I'm not sitting around waiting for some manufacturer to hopefully make the models I want for the scenic and operational goals I have set for my next layout.
I'm 64 years old, I've been building and operating model trains for 54 years, and I hope to build and enjoy one last layout for the rest of my time here. I'm not sitting around waiting for some manufacturer to hopefully make the models I want for the scenic and operational goals I have set for my next layout.
Your choice. I am not about to spend money on something that is not representative of what one would have seen, just to check a box.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL By the way, I have the 100 piggyback cars, kit bashed, re-detailed and freelanced from the products that have been offered over the last 5 decades.
By the way, I have the 100 piggyback cars, kit bashed, re-detailed and freelanced from the products that have been offered over the last 5 decades.
Sounds like you have already answered your problem.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And they are pretty convincing as 40 of them roll by at a scale 50 mph..... But few are down to the inch accurate models of cars that existed. Sheldon
And they are pretty convincing as 40 of them roll by at a scale 50 mph.....
But few are down to the inch accurate models of cars that existed.
If you are OK with it, that is all that matters. I would not be, but that is the nice thing about this hobby. People are able to model things that make them happy. Some people love getting models in a fantasy paint scheme, like a modern GE locomotive painted scheme that it never wore in real life.
https://www.broadwaylimited.com/5689geac6000sp600daylightcolorsparagon3sounddcdccsmokehonp.aspx
Not my thing, but I would never knock someone for owning one. Some people are ok with things that are not prototypical because that is what they like, good for them. If it makes you happy, go for it.
I like to make my models as close to prototypical as I can. Correct details, weathering, paint and proportions. That is what my goal is. If that somehow offends you, sorry, not sorry.
Paul, I'm going to try and be brief here.
I model 1954, many roads had JUST ENTERED piggyback and were still converting 50' -53' flats to piggyback and were still building single van 40' piggyback cars.
I know the NH piggy history pretty well, they were an early inovator, but they are not the only railroad in North America.
I have a nice size fleet of the Walthers 75' cars, but they were actually brand new in 54' with the first of them having just been built the year before. But PRR and Wabash were the only early users of them (and of course the ACR).
And there are lots of photos showing all types of 40' and 53' cars still in use well into the 1960's.
The Walthers 53' GSC cars were rare in piggy service, but it is a nice enough model, I have them as well.
Even back in the day I was not painting any Athearn ATSF cabooses in eastern or freelanced roadnames........
1930's piggys, sure, 50'/53' cars with two vans on about 3 railroads that never/seldom left their home road trackage.
And still there are no B&O converted heavyweights except brass and not many of them.......
Still happy to be modeling the B&O, C&O, WM and protolancing.......
And again, reagarding passenger car lengths, the NH was not the only railroad in North America......
And I am still asking the same question, even with all these great models, what does one do for the stuff that has not been made? It is easy to talk about what has been made, but that is far from being everything desirable for many roads.
And again, I don't freelance for the reason Tony did........
Paul3 Speaking of Monon, a friend of mine purchased a small train's worth of Rapido cars for Monon (4 or 5), the Athearn Genesis F-units, and a Walthers troop sleeper conversion. All because he had one of those Howard Fogg posters on his wall as a kid. BTW, there's a Rapido Monon coach on that auction site right now for $230(!).
Speaking of Monon, a friend of mine purchased a small train's worth of Rapido cars for Monon (4 or 5), the Athearn Genesis F-units, and a Walthers troop sleeper conversion. All because he had one of those Howard Fogg posters on his wall as a kid. BTW, there's a Rapido Monon coach on that auction site right now for $230(!).
The MSRP was $84.95 when Rapido originally produced the coach car. Inventory quickly ran out with discounted prices as low as $60. To the swift go the spoils.
Rich
richhotrain,Yes, of course manufacturers prefer to err on the side of caution. After all, it's their house payment/college tuition fund/food-on-their-table income. They'd rather make 1000 things and be short by 200 units than make 1200 things and end up sitting on 200 unsold units. Making too few just means that their profit isn't as high as it could be; making too many means losing your shirt and going out of business.Speaking of Monon, a friend of mine purchased a small train's worth of Rapido cars for Monon (4 or 5), the Athearn Genesis F-units, and a Walthers troop sleeper conversion. All because he had one of those Howard Fogg posters on his wall as a kid. BTW, there's a Rapido Monon coach on that auction site right now for $230(!).There's one big problem with your idea of having a generic coach available in "any" paint scheme...namely, there was well over 150 Class I railroads. How many is "any"? All of them? Who's going to make them? The only way these things are affordable is if they make at least 200 of them per scheme. Even if they only made 100 different Class I paint schemes, that's 20,000 cars to stock. And even at a very mild $50 per car, that's $1,000,000 of inventory. Who's willing to risk a million bucks making generic passenger cars?Sheldon,I used to buy generic passenger cars (and engines, cabooses, etc.) painted in my road of choice. I no longer am willing to do so. Why the change? Because in the 1990s there was no choice. If I wanted anything in my road, I had to make do. Sure, I could customize it (and sometimes I did), but generic models were the rule. It was either that or expensive brass or difficult-to-build resin kits. Today, all the major classes of diesels of my road are available, plus some steam and even some electrics, both major classes of steel cabooses, and 8 high-end passenger car types that represent 66% of my road's loco-hauled revenue passenger car fleet in 1956.I will never again buy an ATSF offset cupola caboose painted for my road. Never again will I buy a Con-Cor coach and custom paint it as a parlor in my road. There's no need for me to ever buy an F7A (or an E60CF!) for a railroad that never had any. Why pretend to model my road when I actually can?It's just like Tony Koester. He created the Allegheny Midland because he couldn't afford to buy the number of brass NKP Berks he wanted for an NKP steam-era layout. When the NKP Berks came out in affordable plastic (and timed along with a move to another home), it was an easy choice for him to drop the AM and do what he actually had wanted to do for so long.Generic models do not sell as well as they used to; the proof is in the pudding. Just like how undec.'s do not sell in the numbers they used to. The fact is that the hobby has changed.About scale length (again), here's a list of the NH's passenger car fleet of 1,495 cars in 1956:http://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/equipmentlists/NH%209-1956%20PASS%20CAR%20DESC.pdfEvery car listed has the length shown. Try to find any 72' long passenger-carrying loco-hauled cars on this roster. To save you the trouble, you won't find any. BTW, about 1950s TOFCs, FYI: those Athearn twin vans on a 50' flat are really 1930s TOFC cars. The NH was a TOFC pioneer in 1937 (after CGW) and the Number 1 TOFC railroad in the USA until SP got into the act in the '50s. The NH originally used 50' flats until they replaced them with 53' 6" flats when van lengths went up. In the 1950s, the NH started buying 40' flats for single vans, something that many railroads did until the coming of TrailerTrain. Personally, for the 1950s I use the Walthers 75' cars, the PRR F39A. I have a couple trains worth of those.For NH TOFC examples, see:http://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/frtdgms/17200-17274.pdfhttp://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/frtdgms/17300-17399.pdfhttp://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/frtdgms/17300%20Trailer.pdfhttp://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/frtdgms/17500-17799.pdfhttp://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/frtdgms/17800-17899.pdfNote the dates on these above drawings for when they were built.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...Today there seem to be a lot of modelers who will do without rather than run something incorrect? I don't get it either.
I do get it, but I don't subscribe to limitations like that. If I decide to have a piece of rolling stock that was used by a particular railroad, I might settle for a model that's fairly close to the prototype, then tweak it a bit to bring it a little closer to the real one.Sometimes, I'll go to more extreme lengths, but for things I'm unable to do (or am disinterested in), that's the point where I consider it good enough. Some may reach that point sooner, and some later, but I certainly wouldn't agonise over it if I feel that I've done my best...ya gotta know yer limitations.
If I later decide to sell that model, there might be a good response because it's fairly true to its prototype, but there could also be someone out there who initially wants it too....until he notices that something's not quite the way it should be. Do I care? Do the majority of potential buyers care?When I model a prototype, whether for myself or for a friend, I try to be as true to the prototype as possible, but my skills have limits, as does my time to devote to a project. There's a point where it's "good enough" - my "good enough" is past that of some modellers, and nowhere near that of many others.For me, perfection is the golden ring for which I can't be bothered to even reach, let alone grasp. I much prefer to do my best, and leave it at that...freelancing some stuff and attempting to replicate prototypes gives me free reign to do what interests me best at given anytime.
If I were limited or not having a good time, I wouldn't be in this hobby. Others may have a different opinion, or different goals.
Wayne
Lastspikemike This is how pre-order works.
This is how pre-order works.
I can assure you, a great many of the passenger cars that ran in North America in the last 120 years will never get enough preorders to justify the tooling.
And that even includes big railroads like the B&O who took heavyweight cars bought from Pullman in 1948 and rebuilt them in the B&O shops into what at first glance are streamlined modern cars - but they are not underneith.
One off cars, built by and used only by the B&O, each one or two completely unique, never passed on to AMTRAK, yet desirable to any B&O modeler of that period.
Many of which have only been done once or twice in brass over the last 40-50 years.......
SeeYou190 I believe in N scale some lines of passenger cars are still offered as generic diners, combines, coaches, etc. in all kinds of "good enough" paint schemes. It seems the HO modelers are more demanding for accuracy, and the manufacturers are trying to meet this demand. -Kevin
I believe in N scale some lines of passenger cars are still offered as generic diners, combines, coaches, etc. in all kinds of "good enough" paint schemes.
It seems the HO modelers are more demanding for accuracy, and the manufacturers are trying to meet this demand.
-Kevin
Very true. N scale seems to still have lots of "close enough" passenger cars.
HO has seen a few new "close enough" cars recently as some manufacturers are responding to the "other customers" who are railing against "museum quality" prices.
Bachmann came out with few new cars, and brought back a few olders ones. But the roadname choices are still limited to the "popular" roads.
The other choice for real accuracy is brass. Some quick math tells me that if I replaced my current generic plastic fleet with current production brass, it would cost more than the two late model automobiles in my garage........ Which might be more than I spent on model trains in my lifetime.......
Sometimes the enemy of good, is better.
Living the dream.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here is the question, would you buy a generic car with a correct paint scheme for those less popular roads? Sheldon Define "generic" as it relates to passenger cars. Rich Window arrangements and/or exact car types not correct for that railroad. Or possibly even shorter cars like the Con Cor and Athearn cars. Sheldon Window arrangments and/or exact car types need not be correct for that railroad, but no shorties allowed on my layout. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here is the question, would you buy a generic car with a correct paint scheme for those less popular roads? Sheldon Define "generic" as it relates to passenger cars. Rich Window arrangements and/or exact car types not correct for that railroad. Or possibly even shorter cars like the Con Cor and Athearn cars. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here is the question, would you buy a generic car with a correct paint scheme for those less popular roads? Sheldon Define "generic" as it relates to passenger cars. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here is the question, would you buy a generic car with a correct paint scheme for those less popular roads? Sheldon
So here is the question, would you buy a generic car with a correct paint scheme for those less popular roads?
Define "generic" as it relates to passenger cars.
Window arrangements and/or exact car types not correct for that railroad. Or possibly even shorter cars like the Con Cor and Athearn cars.
Window arrangments and/or exact car types need not be correct for that railroad, but no shorties allowed on my layout.
OK, we have had this discussion before - forget about generic shorties, not all passenger cars are the same length.........
RPO's were typically 60' as per the post office offical plan. Most baggage cars were 70' +/-, coaches, even streamlined ones came in a long list of lengths.....
So back in the day, before IHC, AHM/Rivarossi made streamlined and heavyweight cars in a wide list of roadnames. Each car was an accurate car, just not for all the roadnames offered.
But just like ConCor and their wide roadname selection, those days are gone. And none of those cars had the detail of todays high end RTR stuff.
So this whole thing leaves the really dedicated modeler to start kit bashing, painting and decaling.
I do that with my generic shorties just to get a reasonable selections of different car types.
The truth is, the market is just too small, and no one is willing or able to invest in inventory that will take a decade, or even 5 years, to sell.
richhotrain One of my greatest regrets in my 17 years of scale modeling was my failure to buy a string of Monon streamlined coaches from Rapido after I lobbied Jason to build them. I procrastinated about the price which was pretty expensive. The Monon coaches were generic, but the paint scheme was right. So, now, I am stuck with a consist of IHC heavyweight passenger cars which I hate. I know that I am being unrealistic but I yearn for a manufacturer to produce a line of generic full size coach cars that can be ordered in any paint scheme. How hard can that be? Rich
One of my greatest regrets in my 17 years of scale modeling was my failure to buy a string of Monon streamlined coaches from Rapido after I lobbied Jason to build them. I procrastinated about the price which was pretty expensive. The Monon coaches were generic, but the paint scheme was right. So, now, I am stuck with a consist of IHC heavyweight passenger cars which I hate.
I know that I am being unrealistic but I yearn for a manufacturer to produce a line of generic full size coach cars that can be ordered in any paint scheme. How hard can that be?
I'm ready for whatever comments this draws, but here goes.
Today there seem to be a lot of modelers who will do without rather than run something incorrect? I don't get it either.
Passenger cars were built in small custom order batches, except for commuter coaches and basic head end equipment very few were EXACTLY the same as what some other railroad bought.
There is no practical way for model manufacturers to make correct models of all these cars.
A number of the ones they do now are just "close". It works like this, Pullman built a car, they they used a core plan and frame, but altered the interior or other minor features for several different railroads.
The differences are small and subtle, the model company makes one version correct for some name train they are doing. Then they paint it for the other roadnames that are VERY close to the same car. Few people know or notice because the documentation may not even be readily available.
Sure, that is better than just making "generic" cars and putting every roadname on them.
But it highlights the problem of the impossible number of different prototype cars to be modeled.
AND THEN, the railroads constantly rebuilt, modified and upgraded these things. All this multiplied by 400 or major railroads in the 30's to the 50's?
There are now some serious accuracy snobs in this hobby, just like I am a radius and diaphragm snob - I admit it.
And this has created a fear on the part of manufacturers that generic models will not sell.
ConCor once had almost twice as many roadnames on their passenger cars, 72' and 85', as they do now. A clear indication that generic cars are not selling like they once did.
But for many roadnames, nothing has completely replaced them.
richhotrain A few years ago Walthers was going to do some generic passenger car sets for roads like the NKP or EL but they canceled the series before the made any. Supposedly they did not get enough preorders but they offered it in the middle of summer when there is not much railroading activity. I did order the NKP set but it was not exact just using existing Walthers cars with the railroads lettering schemes. Rick Jesionowski ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here is the question, would you buy a generic car with a correct paint scheme for those less popular roads? Sheldon Define "generic" as it relates to passenger cars. Rich
A few years ago Walthers was going to do some generic passenger car sets for roads like the NKP or EL but they canceled the series before the made any.
Supposedly they did not get enough preorders but they offered it in the middle of summer when there is not much railroading activity. I did order the NKP set but it was not exact just using existing Walthers cars with the railroads lettering schemes.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
richhotrain Paul3 Sheldon,I agree; I wouldn't want to get into model train retail right now, either. Trying to stock a store with what people would want to buy would be incredibly tough now compared to 40 years ago. Back then, people would buy generic models because that's all there was. Today, people want to model a certain railroad...and it could be any of 200+ railroads. You'd have to hope that certain roads sell really well in your area; enough to be a regular money maker at any rate. That's a two edged sword. Manufacturers don't make certain roadnames so they don't get stuck with inventory so, as a result, they forego sales. In my case, I model Dearborn Station in Chicago. The owner of the trackage was the Chicago & Western Indiana (C&WI). Five railroads owned the station - - Erie, Wabash, Grand Trunk Western (GTW), Chicago & Eastern Illinois (C&EI), and Monon. It is all but impossible to find locomotives or passenger cars for those railroads, so I buy nothing whereas if the equipment were available, I would buy plenty of it. Rich
Paul3 Sheldon,I agree; I wouldn't want to get into model train retail right now, either. Trying to stock a store with what people would want to buy would be incredibly tough now compared to 40 years ago. Back then, people would buy generic models because that's all there was. Today, people want to model a certain railroad...and it could be any of 200+ railroads. You'd have to hope that certain roads sell really well in your area; enough to be a regular money maker at any rate.
Sheldon,I agree; I wouldn't want to get into model train retail right now, either. Trying to stock a store with what people would want to buy would be incredibly tough now compared to 40 years ago. Back then, people would buy generic models because that's all there was. Today, people want to model a certain railroad...and it could be any of 200+ railroads. You'd have to hope that certain roads sell really well in your area; enough to be a regular money maker at any rate.
That's a two edged sword. Manufacturers don't make certain roadnames so they don't get stuck with inventory so, as a result, they forego sales.
In my case, I model Dearborn Station in Chicago. The owner of the trackage was the Chicago & Western Indiana (C&WI). Five railroads owned the station - - Erie, Wabash, Grand Trunk Western (GTW), Chicago & Eastern Illinois (C&EI), and Monon.
It is all but impossible to find locomotives or passenger cars for those railroads, so I buy nothing whereas if the equipment were available, I would buy plenty of it.
riogrande5761,Well, yes, ScaleTrains does sell direct to retailers. They have very strict rules on who they sell to, however. They could sell to more hobby shops but they don't want to. IMHO, that's because they would prefer to sell direct to consumers because that makes them the most profit. It only makes sense.Selling to retailers is a calculated risk/reward equation for ST. By selling to retailers at all, they increase their visibility to the hobby at large and can get a quick big sales whenever they release a new product. Part of making money in this hobby is churning through product as fast as you can, so empty the warehouse ASAP and keep the money moving. However, every time they do sell to retailers they are losing potential income they would get from direct sales, but at least it's not clogging up the warehouse with unsold inventory. They are walking a fine line.To be fair, ST has never been shy about selling direct. They started with that and that's been their business model from Day One. Now compare that to ExactRail. They started with the conventional wholesaler approach, then when they got famous, they cut them off and now only sell direct. This did not make hobby shops very happy.Sheldon,I agree; I wouldn't want to get into model train retail right now, either. Trying to stock a store with what people would want to buy would be incredibly tough now compared to 40 years ago. Back then, people would buy generic models because that's all there was. Today, people want to model a certain railroad...and it could be any of 200+ railroads. You'd have to hope that certain roads sell really well in your area; enough to be a regular money maker at any rate.
Worse, there's just so much product out there. How could one possibly stock it all? Athearn made about 5 new engines in the 1980s. They can do that now in one calendar year. Not to mention that when model company made a loco, there was just one version and one or two road number(s). Now you have 3 or 4 road numbers and sound or no sound as common. Instead of stocking one or two SKUs, you'd have to stock 6 or 8.
Trainman440Its a smart business practice to do so. First, get your brand famous enough for people to know who you are, then cut out the middleman.
That is not their strategy from what Shane has said. But it's what cynical people seem to think.
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