Passenger train layout. Good idea?

[Anonymous]

Long topic and lots of questions, just thought I'd warn ya[:D]

If any of you have been following my posts, you are aware that I often change my ideas of what I want to model on a daily basis. I went to the library and grabed the Dec. 03 issue of MR and while this wasent the reason why I picked up this issue, I came to an article called the Frisco in Springfield by Pat Hiatte. Its in N scale. And of course after seeing it and thinking about it for awhile, I thought, heck why not, lets add the idea of passenger service as a possibility for my future beginner layout. So thats why Im here.

It seems to me, there isent much talk about passenger trains, how come? Are they difficult to model and operate? Do they lack in the "fun" dept.? Or is it that people just like freights better than passengers? Do you suggest that I look into a passenger layout or not?

At the moment Im going the N scale route on a 4x8 layout. Dogbone, U shaped or some other unique shape, havent figured that one out exactly. Will wait and see what John Armstrong's book, Track Planning for Realistic Operation has to say.

So if I was to model a passenger train layout, what would I need? What kind of locomotives and cars would I need? What do you suggest? I've been thinking of along the lines of an EMD FT or F7. But all they come with is a loco and some car, A&B. I assume the A is for the loco, whats the B than? Would going this route be a good start? I think I've seen some Kato sets, but I've noticed in the Dec. 03 issue of MR a company by the name of Intermountain Railway co. They any good? What about Kato? What about depots and other pieces of equipment and support items that I would need to run a successful layout?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

Steve

[Anonymous]

Well, an A unit is a diesel locomotive with a cab. A B unit is a locomotive with no cab (or a booster). So if you see A-B-B-A, that means that the locomotives pulling the train are in this order: Cab, Booster, Booster, Cab.

[Anonymous]

the problem with passenger operations is it takes a lot more room. Passenger cars are switched around in real life but most layouts dont have the space for those facilities. Also, Many people (myself included) think frieght operation is more fun because you have to service all the industries and such. My layout is primarily frieght operation but there is always a passenger train or two running around. Best of both worlds if you ask me.

[MisterBeasley]

Switching freight cars does have a lot more appeal than passenger operations, I'd have to admit. But don't forget the many dimensions of people-movers. Those long silvery Super Chiefs are just one aspect. Passenger layouts can also include commuter rail, subways and trolleys. All are available in HO, and I suspect the other guages as well.

[Anonymous]

I find that there is much more emphasis on freight operations compared to passenger operations. I prefer passenger operations as I don't need as much in the way of industries and can use fewer pieces of equipment. Layouts that model freight will have a lot more pieces of rolling stock. I model 4 class one's in the KC MO area and will have an emphasis on business and excursion trains plus Amtrak. Fewer pieces of rolling stock, 5-6 pieces per road, total of 25-30 cars, not including locomotives. I will have freight but, not as much of an emphasis.
Ch

[trolleyboy]

If you want a solid passenger layout go for an urban theme say a union station and it's conecting trolley or commuter lines.With a 4x8 even in n scale you won't have alot of room for city to city runs but if you modeled the downtown core you could have your favoriyte railroad bring it's train into a union station and then model the streetcar or subway runs out of the station to the rest of the layout. TB

[Jetrock]

One other thing about passenger equipment--until fairly recently, passenger trains featured much longer cars than freight cars, requiring a larger minimum radius!

Lots of people do feature passenger operation, although it is less common as an exclusive setup. Modern-day passenger operation could include modern commuter lines (including light rail or diesel commuter lines like METRA, Capitol Corridor, Caltrain, etc.) as well as long-run Amtrak.

Passenger operation can also include a lot of freight-like activities: before the 1970's, most passenger trains included railway post office cars, which required extra postal stops (although mail was sometimes picked up and dropped off "on the fly"), REA express packages (the precursor to UPS, Federal Express, etc.), and express-reefer shipments can help blur the line between passenger and freight operation--and then of course there is that long-forgotten anachronism, the mixed train.

Passenger trains on their own, of course, do have an appeal--sleek engines carrying shiny cars makes for a nice trainset. And while articles about passenger operation can be a bit scarce, in recent MR's I can't help but notice ads for the great new models of the California Zephyr and Super Chief lightweight cars--can the Empire Builder be far behind?

[Wdlgln005]

I'd want to know what is available at your LHS in the passenger dept. It depends on what era/roadname you want to follow, from modern Amtrak to 1970's amtra***o historical RR era. Kato makes great passenger units, from the Amtrak to old PA's or E8/F's. Lifelike also makes good PA/F's. You may find some RR/Arnold passenger sets, and ConCor sets of 5/6 smoothsides/heavyweights if you want to run "heritage" equipment.

Another possibility is to run a steam tourist line with MDC/Athearn steamers & shorty passenger cars. It appears that Athearn is unpacking the MDC Nscale dies & getting them back in production quickly with some important upgrades in trucks/couplers.

Adding some passenger service to your layout gives you a chance to do something different and can offer an operating challenge if you want to keep that varnish on the advertised.

As for your layout, a 18" curve will let you run any passenger equipment & any of the larger modern freight cars. You should check out the Atlas Mogul. That is one sweet little steamer!

[BRVRR]

Steve,
There have been several recent issues of MR that deal with passenger trains. I model a few on the BRVRR. Nothing exotic, mainly NYC intermediate trains with mixed consists of streamlined and heavyweight cars.[:D]
In the May 2004 MR, Terry Thompson had a good article on building a roster of passenger cars. In the October 2004, Rich Weyand had an article on modeling Norfolk & Western passenger trains. This article goes into detail on what facilities were needed. This article also discussed planning a layout for an actual division of a real railroad. Passenger trains do not have to be boring stainless snakes. With a little research and planning they can be as colorful and interesting as a mixed freight.[:D]
Judging by these two articles, the trends in model railroading are again moving toward passenger train modeling. Not to supplant freight operations, just more passenger operations than in the past. [:)]
If you follow the advertisements in the magazines you will have noticed the increased number of offering of passenger equipment, particularly from Walthers, Kato, Intermountian and others.
Since you are talking about N-scale, you can get a remarkable amount of passenger operations into a much smaller space than HO. If my eyes were still good, N is were I would be because of that factor alone.
If you get a chance, look over the two articles above and keep looking for other sources.[tup]
Good luck. Remember its your railroad.[^]

[randybc2003]

As noted above, passenger trains were worked on the run. Sleepers, coaches, diners, baggage/mail units might be cut in and out. Entire trains might be split or united. Witness Empire Builder in Spokane WA. Sleeper, coach, baggage mail cut out and formed up with Northern Pacific to for a train for Portland Oregon. AMTRACK still makes that break. Very recently AMTRACK ran the California Zepher with the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. These were broken out at Denver & Salt Lake.
Go to the index, and search for "Hitchcock". This fellow wrote several articles on passenger train operation, specifically Santa Fe's operations near Kansas City, and Holiday. Articles were also in the Track Planning Newstand Special, ('95 I think)
I've seen photos of D&RGW's Prospector, - RPO & 2 cars. Seasonal traffic can also change demand.
And as stated above, the Mixed Local carried passengers & freight. Arive at the local station, drop the coach, and then work the freight cars, without disturbing the coach!!
[:)]

[douginut]

WOA THERE!
what do you need for passenger operation?
Depending on the era a doodlebug, or an RDC ONE car!
Branch line passenger service with an RPO and a combine or mixed train service.
or add a refrigerated milk car (ice usually) for that little milk run with fdairymen and cans on the platform or on baggage carts.

ENDLESS possibilities.

Doug, in Utah

[gvdobler]

I went to the local train store (all trains no other hobby) and as soon as I mentioned passenger cars the guy and his permanent customer (every shop has one) looked at me like I was from mars and that I had missed the meeting where passenger cars were banned from the hobby.

It does take a lot more space. (In HO) I now have two trains that are over eleven feet long each if I put all the cars together. Than would require a lot of space to look nice running. But all passenger cars were not A-B-B-A with 10-12 cars. That's way a lot of people model N scale- I just can't see that well or I would too.

Model what you like and get great advice on how to do it here. Modeling someone else's ideal railroad would probably by less that satisfactory.

Lots of luck---Jon - Las Vegas

[ndbprr]

There have been several articles specifically devoted to running model railroad size passenger trains in MR over the years. They must have shown pictures and equipment needed to duplicate at least 30 or 40 trains in the 80's - both Amtrak and predecessors. There have also been several layouts regarding commuter operations with frequent operations. If you are modeling a specific locale of a specific railroad in a specific time frame then you definitely need to consider what traffic passed through the area and that includes passenger trains.

[IRONROOSTER]

Era plays a major role in passenger trains. I would break this down into 4 time periods - others may have their own.
1. Pre automobile: Prior to World War One. Passenger trains ran every where - practically speaking it was the only way to get around. Lots of passenger trains were run even on the smallest railroads. Short trains and short cars - 50' -60' were common. Lots of stops at little stations/flagstops.
2. Pre interstate/air lines: The 20's and 30"s. Cars had made inroads on local travel, but the mail contracts kept many local passenger trains running just not as frequently. The major railroads competed for long distance passenger service. Long passenger trains and stream lined locomotives. Many name trains. This is the Golden Age of passenger trains.
3. Post World War Two: 40's through the 60's. The passenger train declines. Interstates and airlines reduce the demand. Locals are scarce and dry up as the mail contracts are lost. Long distant passenger trains decline, fewer trains run, equipment deteriorates, service drops.
4. Amtrack: 1971 and later. Initially a hodgepodge, Amtrack eventually establishes it's own identity. Northeast corridor thrives and runs many passenger trains downtown to downtown. Rest of the country sees only a few trains per day and only on major routes.

While any of these eras can be modeled, I would suggest the first for small layouts. You can use shorter cars, have shorter trains, make frequent stops. This could be done with 18" radius curves in HO (and equivalent in other scales).

If you can manage 30" radius curves then the second era would be a good choice.

Unless the era really appeals to you I would skip three if I was just doing passenger trains.

For the modern era I would model the northeast corridor with a multi track mainline under wire with lots of trains.

Enjoy
Paul

[DigitalGriffin]

Why not model passenger? It's a lot of fun. Here's my own list of pros and cons (some already covered) that I formed when I designed my HO track plan.

Pros:
You can use a small depot in the country as a stop. No big station is necessary. Small depot stops/platforms are still common to this day, even with Amtrak.

Allows you to model people, which can be modeled so many different ways.

Cons:
A properly equipped HO "pure" passenger train is 4' to 8' long. That takes up a lot of track on a lil 4'x8' board. While I haven't done the math, I imagine N scale isn't much better.

Also some "HO" passenger cars are only rated for wider curves 22" or so. (Especially the older ones.) So you will want to check the rating before you buy. More modern passenger cars are shorter in length, and therefor less sensitive to sharp curves.

If you run two tracks side by side, make sure that the chord (formed from long moving stock body cut across the circle of track) does not run into the train on the next track! In other words, do a test clerence before you permantly lay down that track!

Hope you have fun,
~D

~D

[Anonymous]

Its all been pretty well covered. With freight you have far more operation (reclassifying trains, way freight, shifting, etc.) per precious sq. foot than passenger. With passenger, a car or two may be shunted to a rip track awaiting another destination train. If space is at a premium, freight would be my choice with passenger limited to a "time-table" consideration for coordinating your freight operations around passenger arrivals and departures. Hey, just like the "real" boys do it.

[Anonymous]

Well, who says you have to run an A-B-B-A with 12 cars consist? I typically run one of my steamers pulling 3 or 4 passenger cars on my 5x9 layout, not much bigger than your 4x8. You could run a single A unit pulling 3 or 4 passenger cars. Passenger operations are a lot of fun, they do take up space, however.

[dinwitty]

build a commuter line with a large city throat terminal then branches off to suburb meccas, perhaps one is a major mainline, do scheduled operations and get several people running the yard throat switches/ trains dispatcher...

You wont need long trains for that.

[eastcoast]

Passenger layouts can take any form or any size.
I am a passenger modeller myself and have done
extensive research about operations.
Service depends on ridership and budget for a rail line.
I have seen all points on a service spectrum, from one
engine and one coach all the way to six engines tugging
a mile long string of EVERYTHING going to a destination.
NOTHING IS OUT OF THE PROTOTYPICAL NORMAL.
The common myth of needing alot of space is crap.
If you build within your budget and can be happy with the
results you get, FINE. Just have FUN.

[Don Gibson]

PASSENGER TRAINS are for those that like running.

They need broad curves to look right - 44" in HO, 22" in N.
Great for dual track mains.

[Anonymous]

It certainly is enlightening to hear "the common myth" of passenger trains "needing alot of space is crap." Perhaps in "Hooterville?" I must remember this "myth" the next time I roll a six car "varnish" of Walther's 80 ft. standard heavy weights out of the marshalling yards. Let's see, "six engines tugging a mile long string of EVERYTHING..." would come to roughly 52 standard cars not counting the "engines." This would be a remarkable lash-up indeed. I'm sure all readers of this Forum would be fascinated to know where, when and why such a gargantuan consist was "made up."

[Anonymous]

I love passenger trains. It is a good idea to model passenger trains

[canazar]

Slim,
I was in somewhat the same spot with my lay out trying to figure out what to model. For me, it was more if an era aspect. Problem was, I kinda had a soft sopt of old steam. But, I have a 4 yr old son who enjoys trains and we enjoy going out and train watching. Problem this brought up, was that I found I was buying modern stuff that we saw . (Example, we found a really nice yardmaster at a local BNSF yard that gave us a on board tour of a Pumkin Dash 9, well the next day I had to get a engine with the Pumkin scheme) cause every time run it, we point and go "hey remember when...."

So I was torn which way to go. FInally, I said the heck with and everyone and declared its MY Railroad, I will do what I want. So now, some weeks, I have my steam on there (only one at the moment) or I am running more modern stuff so the kid and I can point, oggle and awe.

I suppose some folks might think my approach is breaking some fundamental rule about "prototyping". But it is YOUR lay out and run what ever you feel like. No reason you couldnt go back and forth as your mood suites you. Besides, then you get to buy anything you want!

So build a passenger service, (if you are afraid maybe you might get bored with it, build a freight stock) Build in industry here and there so with the passenger service, it looks good in the back ground, and then you could use it for some opertional work.

Just some ideas.

Best Regards
John K

[Anonymous]

Eventually and inevitably it all comes down to one thing, doesn't it Slim? "Colors are made for taste!"

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: I'm sure all readers of this Forum would be fascinated to know where, when and why such a gargantuan consist was "made up."

Not really.

MOST home layout's lack the space to do justice in HO. Even the combined 'El Capitan - Super Chief went to 2 sections when they got to 16 cars.
MOST passenger trains were 6 - 12 cars . Some were 2.
55% of the layouts on this Forum are 4 X 8's.
80' scale Passenger cars look funny on less than 44" radius - forming an Octagonal shape.;
an 8 foot passsing siding will hold 4 85'car's - no engines.
Most Passener cars produced have cheated on the dimesions and trucks to better get around our layout's,.
Even our club has a 10 car limit to fit in the Passenger Depot.

Finally, i have a 24' X 12 P/P layout and an 10 car train only moves 24 feet to get from one end to the other.

[CP5415]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

PASSENGER TRAINS are for those that like running.

They need broad curves to look right - 44" in HO, 22" in N.
Great for dual track mains.

Yes, Don is right!

44" curves in HO scale & everything looks right.
Unfortunately not all of us have the space to be able to set up layouts to allow for such grand curves.
I, like most of us out there, have managed to use 22" curves & Don is right, the cars don't look right on them.
They don't look too bad on the one 30" curve I managed to fit in!
Fortunately, most of the curves on my 9X12 layout will be partially hidden to hide this travesty.

Walthers states on the boxes of there passenger cars that 24" is recommended.
They work great on 22" curves even at high speed.

Just my 2 cents

Gordon

[eastcoast]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ted D. Kramer

It certainly is enlightening to hear "the common myth" of passenger trains "needing alot of space is crap." Perhaps in "Hooterville?" I must remember this "myth" the next time I roll a six car "varnish" of Walther's 80 ft. standard heavy weights out of the marshalling yards. Let's see, "six engines tugging a mile long string of EVERYTHING..." would come to roughly 52 standard cars not counting the "engines." This would be a remarkable lash-up indeed. I'm sure all readers of this Forum would be fascinated to know where, when and why such a gargantuan consist was "made up."

[:)] Certainly, Ted, I am delighted to enlighten all.[:)]

A noted, I do extensive research on passenger operations in the U.S.
To answer and to clarify;
A suburb in the midwest is serviced by only one coach and a switcher that takes the
weekly passenger load to the next stop where it is lashed to that city's bi-weekly bound
for a coastal metro. In the process, the passengers are dropped at a layover of two hours
while yard crews are further hooking mail,autos, produce/food,etc. to the end of this very
passenger train to save fuel costs. If you study Amtrak, you will notice this practice is
commonplace. There is an actual New York to San Francisco run that uses AMD103 and
UP helpers to cross mountain ranges. What happens is a bottleneck track occurs and two trains are lashed together headed for SanFran. This mix of train has roadrailers, passengers, hi-cubes,flats,piggybacks,autos on it. Again, fuel and time is saved by doing this. And ,yes, this completed consist is over one mile in length, with six engines.
Feel free to do your own research. A point to start is to watch the DVD "Amtrak 30" and
view the "CSX Folkston Funnel" Both will surely answer any further question.[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
Finally, i have a 24' X 12 P/P layout and an 10 car train only moves 24 feet to get from one end to the other.

[:0] Only 24 feet from one end to the other!? You poor ***! [}:)]

But seriously, you concider 24 feet to be a short distance? How?
I run 9 car passsenger trains on my 9 x 11 and they don't look too bad.

[Don Gibson]

I FIGURE your 9 car train using in the vacinity of 10 - 11 feet (with 85' cars) of track length and t taking up approx half of your loop - even with 43" R cuurve potential,.

Better yet, if you increase it to 18 cars, you might have the first engine's nose 'sniffing' it's own tail.
signed Poor ***

[Anonymous]

You say you have 12 x 24 feet to work in. It don't sound like you appreciate it.
To me, now its just me, seems like you're bitching about having space equivilant to half a large garage. [tdn]

By the way, I am proud of my 9 x 11. I may not have 24 of travelling distance, but it is still fantstic. [^]