https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/
Cheers, Ed
gmpullman https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/ Cheers, Ed
Why doesn't BLI use better connectors bewteen the engines and tenders?
Why doesn't BLI make wiring information available to the end user for the asking so they can remove the decoder easily?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Engi1487So, what is this suppose to mean?
Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out.
I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
I recently went through a decoder issue with a brand new PRR K4. The tech assured me that Version H, has all new motor control architecture and the programming problems are gone for good.
I said that may be true but I sure have a lemon here. They sent a replacement and it acted the very same way. IF I reset the decoder it runs fine on address 3.
IF I put the engine number in (or any four-digit address) as the address the motor control gets completely scrambled. I've had this problem with 8 out of the last 12 Paragon3 decoders.
The pickup was awful on the last several BLI engines I bought as well. Engines would stop dead at any given time, usually, but not always at a turnout that I've tested to be fully powered. Tech said he never heard of that problem. Quite a few reviews I've read mention the same issue. BLI has added a keep alive and socket on the newest version of their P3 decoders and they now offer their "GO Pack" capacitor bundle.
I don't think they're about to scrap their Paragon line but I DO believe they had better redesign from the ground up. These issues have made me think twice before I'll buy any more of their Paragon3 engines.
Good Luck, Ed
FWIW, I have yet to get a QSI to fail on me. I have had one decoder fail in all the time I have been in the hobby, and that was a LokSound in a PCM Y6b. Of all the QSI decoders I own, at least five were placed into locomotives prior to 2005.
It would be very frustrating to have so many decoder failures, both for the customer and for BLI. I'm sure BLI is doing what they can now that they're getting back so many locos (the real percentage of returns is going to remain a mystery. It might be small.). My hope is that they get a grip soon. I haven't been impressed with some of the sound files on the P2 and P2 issues. The sounds are of good quality, though, and the motion control is very good.
I have 7 Broadway steam locos, I have 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steam locos.
I run DC, and have removed all the decoders........
And even at that I have had more problems with Broadway locos than with Bachmann locos.........
Kevin is right, why can't they make them easily convertible to DC like all my Bachmann locos were?
You mat consider it a big selection, but it is mostly a big selection of BIG, rare, flashy, "famous" locos.
I want a believable roster of locos for my railroad, that's why only a few Broadway locos fit the bill.
Sheldon
Look, I was quick to criticize the P3 decoders on these forums this spring when my son's brand new BLI P3 UP 3985 4-6-6-4 failed right away, within a week. However, Seneca at Train Service Depot had the engine repaired and back in my hands in about two weeks flat and in perfect condition without any marks on it. A new upgraded motor (obtained directly from BLI) and the new upgraded P3 decoder (also from BLI) have the engine running as well as any I have ever owned or even seen in my life. We also bypassed the repair backlog! I will put that engine up against anybody's brass articulated, too, or any other model, for performance with a long train behind it.
BLI has already upgraded both the P3 decoder AND the motor. The new motor has much much more torque. There is nothing wrong with them now. Some early P3 engines on the market may require the new decoder and the motor. They will replace them for free.
Also, decoder and motor problems are NOT unique to BLI. The Rapido sound module or motherboard is currently killing motors in some of their engines at too high a rate. I have both good filtered plain dc power and the NCE Powercab dcc. My solution has been to only run Rapido diesels in plain dc. For me they have not fried any (more) boards or motors since I stopped running them in dcc. Also Rapido is advertising that new engines coming next have the upgraded motor.
I should point out that the Rapido plain dc units with the previous motor are outperforming my Atlas diesels. The Rapido engines are quieter with slightly more torque and pulling power than my latest run Atlas C-420. I just acquired a mint 2003 run (from when Atlas was arguably the best) Atlas C-425. It is the quietest diesel I have, but the Rapido RS-11 pulls better, and the Rapido B36-7 pulls notably better. So in plain dc, if you get through the first 2 hours without incident, the Rapido diesels appear to be just fine. Failures if they happen tend to happen right away. No plain dc units have failed for me out of 7 purchased this fall, but others have had a few fail.
I will close by saying that everybody has had recent motor issues. Just a couple years ago Atlas, Bowser, and Intermountain ALL had to replace their motors. They share one factory together and were all using the same or virtually the same motors. Fortunately the weak motors, which can run ok (they lack some torque and won't pull as well), were limited to a few product runs. The newer engines run much better. Also the increased features that so many people want are causing the electronic bugs. A motor that is great in plain dc I am told may not be once a decoder and motherboard or sound module are added. A different specification motor may be required for dcc/sound operation.
Refer to the Atlas Rescue Forum for more detailed motor test results that were and still are being posted by llxlocomotives. He is testing several currently, both vintage and current production. He installs them in test diesels to get consistent results on a layout.
John
it's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster ...
i don't need the extra grief, and beleive me, it's there. lol
Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout?
Rich
Alton Junction
wvg_cait's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster .
Same here.
Mike.
My You Tube
richhotrain Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout? Rich
I agree that was a problem, a problem I think they have finally fixed.
But interestingly, none of those crappy incandescent bulbs have burned out on my layout, powered by 13.8 volts DC thru the factory lighting board.
So yes there was some sort of design disconnect between the lighting board, the lamps and the decoders.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout? Rich I agree that was a problem, a problem I think they have finally fixed. But interestingly, none of those crappy incandescent bulbs have burned out on my layout, powered by 13.8 volts DC thru the factory lighting board. So yes there was some sort of design disconnect between the lighting board, the lamps and the decoders. Sheldon
Why...Athearn...incandescent bulbs?
Athearn switched to LED lights in the most recent releases, going back almost 2 years now. Both Genesis units and Ready-to-Roll units (SD-60's and Sound Value series SD40/SD40U's) started coming in with LED lights.
Marketing people have sales target prices that they want to hit. Some manufacturers choose or chose to cut certain corners to hit those marketing target prices. Beyond that, I have no idea. However, they are LED now.
Always read the fine print with new releases.
PRR8259 Why...Athearn...incandescent bulbs? Athearn switched to LED lights in the most recent releases, going back almost 2 years now.
Athearn switched to LED lights in the most recent releases, going back almost 2 years now.
Hi Rich--
I wrote what I wrote to clarify for the uninformed, that's all.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
PRR8259 Hi Rich-- I wrote what I wrote to clarify for the uninformed, that's all. Happy Thanksgiving! John
Happy Thanksgiving!
I only have one AThearn RTR loco with bulbs, it has 4 of them 2 in each end, none have burned out yet on DCC. But it just stands to reason that running full power 100% of the time like the do on DCC is going to shorten the life vs running most of the time at 50% or less when using DC.
A bigger problem is locos that have higher voltage, higher watt bulbs in them. On DC< at 50% most of the time, they don;t get warm. But DCC is full power all the time. They can get hot enough to melt the plastic around the headlight.
This isn;t a new thing - when they came out with high frequency lighting, they had the same problem. Full voltage to the bulb, 100% of the time. The only saving grace 60+ years ago was that mmany times the headlight casting, if not the whole loco shell, were metal, so it wouldn't melt.
BLI has far too much invested in their proprietary decoders to switch. ANd apparantly the cost for repairs and the cost in customer retention has not exceeded the cost of switching to something else. Remember they started out using a third party decoder, but QSI was slow in updating and took forever to release a new version decoder. And now they have Rolling Thunder witht he wireless broadcast of the low frequency sounds from the decoder to a stationary subwoofer. They's have to share that with some other decoder manufacturer to add it, so the BLI version of say an ESU decoder would stil be proprietary and not a standard decoder. Given that no other decoder manufacturer has thus far (at least publically) attempted to create a competetive system to Rolling Thunder, it would appear they are uninsterested or think it not worth the effort to design for limited sales, so it's not likely any would be interested in licensing it from BLI and incorporating it in their full line of decoders.
I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have a few BLI locomotives. E8A/B set Amtrak Phase I and F3 A/B set with a individual F3A NYC full lightning strike.
Although I don't have problems with them yet, because no layout but had a test run with them.
I'm that kind of person who doesn't like grab irons, lift rings and other etc on locomotives because it be easier to break.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
richhotrain PRR8259 Hi Rich-- I wrote what I wrote to clarify for the uninformed, that's all. Happy Thanksgiving! John And to you, John. I am just feeling hostile this morning watching a dead bird being shoved into the oven. Rich
And to you, John. I am just feeling hostile this morning watching a dead bird being shoved into the oven.
I'm eating ham thank you.
I'm sure my DC system and the lack of a decoder has EVERYTHING to do with it.
First, I use a DC system within the voltage parameters set by the "old" NMRA standards.
Without trying to get into a long technical electrical engineering analysis, I think the combination of the factory lighting board and the output from the decoder for lighting, was simply on the edge of too much voltage. Combined with the fact that different DCC systems, and different booster setups, run, or can be run at various voltages.
And lets not forget that the DCC "signal" carrier voltage is not really AC or DC, in their pure sense. That can effect how voltages are seen by various components.
Prime example, I use the Train Engineer radio throttles. They are high frequency PWM like the motor control from a decoder. DC lighting circuits for constant brightness and directional lighting see the smallest throttle setting as nearly full voltage - because the pulses are full voltage.
The result, lights come on full brighness long before the loco moves in nearly all cases. Just like switching them on in DCC but without the extra button to push
I prefer LED's but I'm not fixing things that are not broke, so my older Athearn and Bachmann locos with incandesent lamps are just fine.
rrinker I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
mbinsewi wvg_ca it's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster . Same here. Mike.
wvg_ca
I can certainly understand why some would say that, and I have written some scathing comments on here about BLI's decoders in the past. However, I have to be honest and give credit where credit is due. I defy you to go anywhere, usually defined as brasstrains.com, and find ANY engine (brass, hybrid, plastic whatever) under $1000 that will offer the same good appearance, detailing, factory lighting, very chip resistant high quality factory paint, and generally good performance, as what BLI offers with some of their brass hybrids. You just cannot. There were some Railworks/Crown Custom Imports New Haven 4-6-2's (containing great Boo Rim Precision gearboxes) selling in the $600 price range that were new old stock (after the importer passed away) but they are gone now--sold out. I've spent many hours combing the internet for good steam power and I know what is out there and what is just not (excluding the beat up old brass on Ebay that can be a crapshoot and require considerable fiddling to make usable).
Now, some folks only want to spend $150 or less for a steam engine. If that is the case, then you need to stick to Bachmann or Athearn Roundhouse series or...idk?
If you want steam power, what else are you going to do? MTH is currently producing their final steam locos EVER, and YES, I have two monster DM&IR 2-8-8-4's coming, one for me and basically one for my son.
Contrary to perhaps Sheldon's opinion BLI does sell a lot of "smaller" locos. There are 2-8-0's and 4-6-2's and 2-8-2's of many roadnames, and they make run after run of them. To me, that is "small", but possibly not small enough for some folks.
Also, it actually costs every bit as much money to tool up and make a small Southern Pacific 0-6-0 switcher as a much larger engine. All the steps are the same. That (and the complex multi-color paint schemes) is why the Challenger Imports SP 0-6-0's made many years ago now are $2000 engines. I am told nobody can produce a new 0-6-0 in full on brass now for less than about $1500--and that means even to do small steam as a brass hybrid is going to be cost prohibitive. You have to generate enough sales, which in brass is at least 100 units (according to Jim Bennett who is friends with the owner of Boo Rim) to get made. The problem with that is there are very few "correct" "road specific" engines out there that will generate 100 units in sales. There just are not enough buyers of steam power anymore.
Rapido has found that out: reservations for their small Canadian steam engines were underwhelming, and at least one is on indefinite "hold" pending more reservations, and these are far from being $150 engines, more like $450 street sale price.
Challengers, Big Boys, other monster articulateds, and big surviving passenger 4-8-4's just plain sell. Other steam power--there just aren't usually enough people willing to buy them to generate enough sales numbers anymore. However BLI can continue cranking out USRA steamers till the cows come home; they are already tooled.
Disclaimer: Paul, I know there are New Haven fans that will argue this, but New Haven is likely an exception and far from the rule.
There are D&RGW 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's coming in brass (they shared a common boiler) but the actual as delivered price is going to be above $2000 regardless of what some online price quotes may say (they are outdated). This, again, is according to Jim Bennett, Moderator of one of the brass forums over on Facebook.
Happy turkey day to all-
PRR8259 I defy you to go anywhere, usually defined as brasstrains.com, and find ANY engine (brass, hybrid, plastic whatever) under $1000 that will offer the same good appearance, detailing, factory lighting, very chip resistant high quality factory paint, and generally good performance, as what BLI offers with some of their brass hybrids.
I agree there. Even after rebuilding the drive, adding a decoder and speaker and even trying to come close to a factory painting and lettering job a brass engine is still a fussy thing to contend with.
All of my recent Broadway purchases have been with the caveat that if I can not get the factory decoder/motor to function properly, with or without warranty service, I factor in that I will probably be installing another manufacturers decoder some time down the road. I've already swapped out probably a dozen Paragon/QSI decoders over the past few years.
Still, BLI makes a great product and fills a need for at least some "desirable" models. Their service department has always been helpful to me and they have always tried to get the repairs made to the best of their ability.
I hope they simply decide to abandon the maligned "Paragon" architecture and provide a reliable decoder in future releases.
richhotrain rrinker I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
Agreed.
Two of my seven "BLI" products are original PCM Reading T-1's sold as DC models.
All my other BLI locos now sport Bachmann tenders with no sound or DCC.
Changing the tenders gave the locos a family look with the rest of my roster.
I have two heavy Mikes with Bachmann long haul tenders, two N&W Class A's with tenders from C&O 2-8-4's, and a heavy Pacific with an oil long haul tender from a Bachmann 2-10-2.
The Class A tenders are similar in style to my Mikes freelanced from 2-8-4's (which have the smaller NKP version of that tender) and also are similar in style to the Reading T-1 tenders.
The others are USRA long tenders match most of my fleet of Mountains, other Pacifics and 2-10-2's.
BLI has missed a lot of business by not offering DC models, by not being able to make small proto specific changes on the Mike and Pacific, and by putting sound ahead of detail in some cases.
gmpullman I hope they simply decide to abandon the maligned "Paragon" architecture and provide a reliable decoder in future releases.
PRR8259 mbinsewi wvg_ca it's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster . Same here. Mike. I can certainly understand why some would say that, and I have written some scathing comments on here about BLI's decoders in the past. However, I have to be honest and give credit where credit is due. I defy you to go anywhere, usually defined as brasstrains.com, and find ANY engine (brass, hybrid, plastic whatever) under $1000 that will offer the same good appearance, detailing, factory lighting, very chip resistant high quality factory paint, and generally good performance, as what BLI offers with some of their brass hybrids. You just cannot. There were some Railworks/Crown Custom Imports New Haven 4-6-2's (containing great Boo Rim Precision gearboxes) selling in the $600 price range that were new old stock (after the importer passed away) but they are gone now--sold out. I've spent many hours combing the internet for good steam power and I know what is out there and what is just not (excluding the beat up old brass on Ebay that can be a crapshoot and require considerable fiddling to make usable). Now, some folks only want to spend $150 or less for a steam engine. If that is the case, then you need to stick to Bachmann or Athearn Roundhouse series or...idk? If you want steam power, what else are you going to do? MTH is currently producing their final steam locos EVER, and YES, I have two monster DM&IR 2-8-8-4's coming, one for me and basically one for my son. Contrary to perhaps Sheldon's opinion BLI does sell a lot of "smaller" locos. There are 2-8-0's and 4-6-2's and 2-8-2's of many roadnames, and they make run after run of them. To me, that is "small", but possibly not small enough for some folks. Also, it actually costs every bit as much money to tool up and make a small Southern Pacific 0-6-0 switcher as a much larger engine. All the steps are the same. That (and the complex multi-color paint schemes) is why the Challenger Imports SP 0-6-0's made many years ago now are $2000 engines. I am told nobody can produce a new 0-6-0 in full on brass now for less than about $1500--and that means even to do small steam as a brass hybrid is going to be cost prohibitive. You have to generate enough sales, which in brass is at least 100 units (according to Jim Bennett who is friends with the owner of Boo Rim) to get made. The problem with that is there are very few "correct" "road specific" engines out there that will generate 100 units in sales. There just are not enough buyers of steam power anymore. Rapido has found that out: reservations for their small Canadian steam engines were underwhelming, and at least one is on indefinite "hold" pending more reservations, and these are far from being $150 engines, more like $450 street sale price. Challengers, Big Boys, other monster articulateds, and big surviving passenger 4-8-4's just plain sell. Other steam power--there just aren't usually enough people willing to buy them to generate enough sales numbers anymore. However BLI can continue cranking out USRA steamers till the cows come home; they are already tooled. Disclaimer: Paul, I know there are New Haven fans that will argue this, but New Haven is likely an exception and far from the rule. There are D&RGW 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's coming in brass (they shared a common boiler) but the actual as delivered price is going to be above $2000 regardless of what some online price quotes may say (they are outdated). This, again, is according to Jim Bennett, Moderator of one of the brass forums over on Facebook. Happy turkey day to all- John
John, the problem with the "small " steam form BLI is this, they are too cheap or too lazy to make the simplest small proto specific detail changes on these locos.
The detail on all three of those locos is not even Bachmann standard line level. Bachmann Mikados and Pacifics at least have correct trailing trucks, correct headlight locations, and various tenders that reflect the style of the roadname even if they are not perfect.
For totally generic I should pay more? And not be able to buy it without a decoder?
Since DCC or sound is not an issue for me, mechanically, with decoders removed, none of my BLI locos run significantly better than my Bachmann/Spectrum locos.
In fact, the two BLI heavy Mikes I have, had to be torn down and reassembled by me as if I was building a Bowser kit to get reasonable performance.
I have my share of larger steam locos, but I am building an operational model railroad not a museum display of famous steam giants. I have way more Connies (10), Mikes (8), Pacifics (4, and shopping for a few more) and Mountains (10) than articulated or long wheelbase giants of late steam. Even at that, 5 of my 10 articulated locos are USRA 2-6-6-2's, not really any bigger than a Mountain or a Santa Fe class.
Price has little to do with it, but, I paid less than $200 each for two BLI Class A's, only slightly more than $200 each for two PCM DC Reading T-1's, And only a little over $100 each for a Pacific and the two heavy Mikes - had I paid more I might have been really upset that I had to rebuild them.
Admittedly, nearly all my locos were purchased years ago, and my loco want list is very small.
The C&O J3a is the only BLI product I am even remotely currently interested in, But I already have two very nice running Spectrum C&O J-2's to pull that train......
Now what I would buy is a nice B&O P7e that is not $1200, $400, $500 yes, $1200 no.
The dollar cost average of my whole fleet of 140 locos, steam and diesel, is around $100 each. They are all nicely detailed and run great. But again, they are all DC and have been purchased over the last 20 years. And it even includes a few pieces of brass and brass hybrids.
I'm a modeler and kit basher, not an "expensive model collector". Nothing wrong with collecting nice products, but I'm about the layout scenic and operational goals as the big picture, aquiring locos that are suitable is just one piece in that puzzle, it is not the primary end game.
To that end BLI has missed a lot of my money, while Proto, Bachmann, Intermoutain, and Genesis, in that order, have gotten most of my loco dollars in the last 20 years.
I dont agree with what theyre doing, but I tell tell why they do it...
Why do they not offer non-decoder engines? BLI makes their own decoders, it is obviously their incentive to put them in every possible model they can.
Producing their own decoders significantly reduces the additional cost they take to add, since they arent paying some other decoder manufac to add to their engines. Yet, it allows them to charge the same price as other makers' DCC sound engines. So they make greater profits putting in decoders they make themselves since they get both the loco's profit margin AND the decoder's.
Every manufac that makes their own decoders has pushed their engines with their own decoders more than their engines without, such as MTH. Now Im aware their diesels do come in DCC ready, but I do believe their steam comes only in Proto sound form. And it makes sense they do, for similar reasons (plus theyre MTH).
I have yet to have issues with my paragon 2/3 decoders, I actually enjoy the Paragon 2 sound a lot.
Obviously it would be nice if they brought back the "no sound" versions of their engines, or even the Blueline. But there's just so little incentive to do so.
Maybe some of you will avoid buying BLI locos but the vast majority wont. Theyre one of the few who makes rarer PRR (and Santa Fe sorta) engines thats not brass. PRR modelers like me will continue to buy their stuff.
That's why they do it. Whether it will suit all their customers is another topic. PS anyone who has a spare Paragon 2 steam decoder they want to toss, PM me, I want one ;)
Cheers!
Charles
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Trainman440 Back to the original topic, BLI makes their own decoders, it is obviously their incentive to put them in every possible model they can. Producing their own decoders significantly reduces the additional cost they take to add, since they arent paying some other decoder manufac to add to their engines. Yet, it allows them to charge the same price as other makers' DCC sound engines. So they make greater profits putting in decoders they make themselves since they get both the loco's profit margin AND the decoder's. Every manufac that makes their own decoders has pushed their engines with their own decoders more than their engines without, such as MTH. Now Im aware their diesels do come in DCC ready, but I do believe their steam comes only in Proto sound form. And it makes sense they do, for similar reasons (plus theyre MTH). I have yet to have issues with my paragon 2/3 decoders, I actually enjoy the Paragon 2 sound a lot. Obviously it would be nice if they brought back the "no sound" versions of their engines, or even the Blueline. But there's just so little incentive to do so. Maybe some of you will avoid buying BLI locos but the vast majority wont. Theyre one of the few who makes rarer PRR (and Santa Fe sorta) engines thats not brass. PRR modelers like me will continue to buy their stuff. PS anyone who has a spare Paragon 2 steam decoder they want to toss, PM me, I want one ;) Cheers! Charles
Back to the original topic, BLI makes their own decoders, it is obviously their incentive to put them in every possible model they can.
Maybe some of you will avoid buying BLI locos but the vast majority wont. Theyre one of the few who makes rarer PRR (and Santa Fe sorta) engines thats not brass. PRR modelers like me will continue to buy their stuff. PS anyone who has a spare Paragon 2 steam decoder they want to toss, PM me, I want one ;)
We all understand the economics of manufacturing, but all that would mean more if they actually owned a factory that even one part came from.......
Proprietary or not, the WHOLE LOCOMOTIVE comes from a factory owned by someone else.
No offense to anyone, but not everyone in this hobby models PRR or ATSF. I think it is great that those models are offered for those who do, but just like you might not be buying any locos that say B&O, or C&O, or WESTERN MARYLAND, I'm not buying any that say PRR, UP, ATSF, NYC or even N&W, except to repaint a few N&W locos to ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
There you have it, most of their steam loco product line complelely outside my interests. And most of their diesels that I have seen don't meet my detail requirements.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No offense to anyone, but not everyone in this hobby models PRR or ATSF. Sheldon
No offense to anyone, but not everyone in this hobby models PRR or ATSF.
That part about the PRR and ATSF was not meant for you, nor anyone else. There was literally ZERO implication that "everyone should model ATSF or PRR", nor did I imply that BLI is trying to cater toward everyone by producing more PRR and ATSF engines.
I was simply stating to those that do model PRR or ATSF, they produce some nice models. (And we are grateful and lucky that they do. )
I was also giving an example of how they werent producing all the flashiest engines. Engines like the H10s or the L1s are arguably not fancy in any means. Yet they still produced them.
I dont see why you think everyone's reply is intented toward you, and every manufacturer is trying to please you.
Good for you if you dont want to buy BLI engines. I, and many others will be.
I agree their diesels need some work. The latest F7s/F3s and certain others are decent, but the GEVOs (?) and SD40s need some updating and prototype specific detail.
The why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum.
I'm not saying I agree with it or that I like it, at all. It was a business decision. The "Blueline" series engines just didn't light the world on fire with either sales or quality. At some point they just decided that most of their key repeat buyers prefer fully featured engines.
Sheldon and I disagree on many things, but here is where we actually have something in common: we don't want or need all the features. I like cool lights, and he probably doesn't need them or else is perfectly content to do his own. As far as why they don't make at least an attempt (like Bachmann) to get some of the road specific details "correct", I have no good answer.
Maybe Bachmann is doing larger product runs and in their sales model they assume some of the road specific details are amortized over the entire run? I just do not know.
To say you are not going to buy any BLI engines at all when they are the largest or one of the largest remaining manufacturers of HO steam would seem to be unfortunate, but I can respect that choice, or those that make that choice.
Unfortunately there is no perfect manufacturer. They all have their plusses and minuses. I love Kato's quality but some consider their diesel handrails to be coarse and many bemoan their utter lack of paint schemes. Their recent HO offerings have been rather limited, and the older I get the more I learn they made some tooling mistakes just like the other guys.
I find the trend toward all fully featured engines to be disturbing, as at that point manufacturers are pushing some of us to buy stuff we don't want or really need, but it's just not up to me. I know the trend is ongoing. Yet at the same time, shopping online today, it's the plain dc units of some roadnames that are still sold out, while full featured ones may still be in stock. I don't know how you forecast demand from that.
John and Charles,
I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money.
In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me.
Lights - I model an era before ditch lights, when daytime running with headlights was just becoming the norm, and Mars lights were just being tested and brought into use, I just want the headlight to come on when the train runs.
But as described many times, my PWM throttles provide some nice full brightness effects even for stopped trains.
John, the problem with BlueLine locos was the fact that BLI is hung up on sound. Clearly the idea of selling a loco without sound bothers them. And it bothers them that Kevin and I would remove their precious sound decoder, based on the "not so warm" response he got from them about how to rewire their locos for DC only.
There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed.
I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC.
I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now.
And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question:
Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy.
They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger.
They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b.
They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a.
Who made more money???????
Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed.
gmpullman Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean? Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out. I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean?
Engi1487 gmpullman Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean? Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out. I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better. I see. I would have liked that if you had explained that in the first place, as how was I suppose to know to connect those two together?
I see. I would have liked that if you had explained that in the first place, as how was I suppose to know to connect those two together?
There have been engines from BLI that I would have removed the decoders from if I could, but I did not know how to get them apart and how/what to do. As Sheldon noted, they do not tell you how to remove their sound. In some cases I can disassemble the mechanism and make repairs to the engine (like replacing missing driver springs that some have needed), but I don't know what to do with the electronics in the tender. I have had issues getting tenders apart at all, even when I'm following their own directions.
Clearly some of their engines are completely different animals from the original BLI offerings. There is a big difference, mechanically, between the first run Santa Fe 2-10-2, and the (decade later) Modernized Santa Fe 2-10-2. The second version is much better. The plastic gears in the first version all fail, it's just a matter of time. The Modernized version has a completely different mechanism with metal gears. It's actually imo much nicer.
So I would not be one to assume that the only improvements they've made are electronic.
There were details like piping that didn't always fit well on the original versions that were fixed when the later run was done.
Although doubtful it may happen, it would be agreeable with a number of modelers if BLI would offer "DCC Ready" units as an option.
I'm grateful that BLI produced the C&O J3a. It was a pleasat shock as a number of modelers had been asking manufacturers to tool one for years!
I was fortunate in having been able to ride the Family Lines "Operation Lifesaver" special, featuring the Chessie 614 years back. What a beauty of a machine it was to see in action! I even got to go inside her cab. I took photos and made a tape recording of my trip. Since then, my hope was that someone would produce a plastic HO version. My thought was that it would be Bowser. BLI's version appears to be a winner.
Whether in stock or on ebay, I'm budgeting for a BLI unit as they are quite expensive. I hope that the correct whistle (or, at least, the version used in the 1980's) is on BLI's decoder.
This would be my first "model" steamer (I had toy steamers as a small kid). Although I can't imagine running it in silent mode, I plan on having the sound levels on low settings as I've heard steamers at clubs with the volume turned rather high. Loud exhaust "Chuffs", especially at speeds over 30 smph, can become annoying after a while.
PRR8259 Then why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum. To say you are not going to buy any BLI engines at all when they are the largest or one of the largest remaining manufacturers of HO steam would seem to be unfortunate, but I can respect that choice, or those that make that choice. Unfortunately there is no perfect manufacturer. They all have their plusses and minuses. I love Kato's quality but some consider their diesel handrails to be coarse and many bemoan their utter lack of paint schemes. Their recent HO offerings have been rather limited, and the older I get the more I learn they made some tooling mistakes just like the other guys. I find the trend toward all fully featured engines to be disturbing, as at that point manufacturers are pushing some of us to buy stuff we don't want or really need, but it's just not up to me. I know the trend is ongoing. Yet at the same time, shopping online today, it's the plain dc units of some roadnames that are still sold out, while full featured ones may still be in stock. I don't know how you forecast demand from that. John
Then why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
At higher speeds, the BLI chuff just basically disappears or becomes a "whoosh". I don't think it'll be a bother. Usually there are a couple different whistles for the modeler to choose from. On UP offerings they even sometimes include a non-prototypical whistle choice because not everybody actually likes the UP steam whistles.
With the C&O engines, you may find the price goes up as they tend to sell out. That is not a model I would delay in obtaining, because they may actually turn into "unobtainium".
For the record, the BLI UP brass hybrid 2-10-2 of a just a few years ago now brings $1100 at brasstrains.com, and sells relatively quickly at that price--in days or weeks--even in used condition. The original price from BLI was far less. I think they were easily obtained for $500 or less. I wanted one but never acquired one. Didn't want it badly enough, I guess. It's a beauty of an engine.
Generally speaking the hybrid engines will perform better than the regular production engines. The only issue I ever really had with a hybrid was the sound cutting out at speed (and my son wanted to sell his GN 4-8-4 and get a big screen tv instead--now he wishes he had the GN engine--is all about the green boiler or blue-green boiler steam engines).
Face it Sheldon, we're a minority in this hobby.Surely you've seen that from posts just on this forum - people who's roster are a Big Boy or two, a Cab Forward, a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, oh and a GS-4 Daylight. They're just happier running a series of iconic specialty locos instead of modeling one or two roads and a roster representing that. It's not my style of model railroading, and it's not yours, but it makes those people happy. If Big Boys didn't sell, there wouldn't be more model versions available than total actual Big Boys that ever existed.
As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. They are very distinctive locos, not suitable for other prototype roads for the most part, but they were after one market -the PRR modeler who wanted steam power/ They made what, 2, 3 locos (HO and N under the PCM name? Different decoder for the decoder versions, and not PRR locos - Reading T1 like the ones we both have. I will say I picked up my second one for $200 - and it's the DCC/Sound one. My first one, I got for a discount from the dealer I reserved with, and it wasn't completely perfect - had a loose wire and one of the driver springs wasn't in place, but it was an easy fix. Been perfect ever since - they originally came out when 16 years ago?
PRR8259For the record, the BLI UP brass hybrid 2-10-2 of a just a few years ago now brings $1100 at brasstrains.com, and sells relatively quickly at that price--in days or weeks--even in used condition. The original price from BLI was far less. I think they were easily obtained for $500 or less.
A few weeks back on eBay I watched a NIB, non-sound, "DCC-ready" '40 BLI Dreyfuss Hudson bid up to and sell for $1,259. I picked mine up when it first came out in 2010 for <$400.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
rrinkerAs for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes.
Part of that may have to do with the cooperation they get from the PRRT&HS for locomotive details and paint specifications, etc.
Similarly, Rapido is working closely with the New Haven Historical Society. It makes the research part of the job go much easier and If I'm not mistaken, the New Haven fellows put some of their own cash on the line to get models produced.
Broadway got into the business at the beginning of DCC and had several trial baloons for "Stealth" and Blue-Line runs so I'm sure their accountant knows where the return on investment lies.
They may not publicize their wiring diagrams but I have seen replies from their tech people where they have provided the pin-out of some of their decoders. I haven't had any problems ringing out their wire assignments.
Admittedly, their smoke unit is something I have no use for and there sure is a lot of extra wiring going to that but it seems to be related to the "chuff synchronization" that drives the sub-miniature blower.
Try going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen.
richhotrainFear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it.
Thanks, Rich
rrinker Face it Sheldon, we're a minority in this hobby.Surely you've seen that from posts just on this forum - people who's roster are a Big Boy or two, a Cab Forward, a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, oh and a GS-4 Daylight. They're just happier running a series of iconic specialty locos instead of modeling one or two roads and a roster representing that. It's not my style of model railroading, and it's not yours, but it makes those people happy. If Big Boys didn't sell, there wouldn't be more model versions available than total actual Big Boys that ever existed. As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. They are very distinctive locos, not suitable for other prototype roads for the most part, but they were after one market -the PRR modeler who wanted steam power/ They made what, 2, 3 locos (HO and N under the PCM name? Different decoder for the decoder versions, and not PRR locos - Reading T1 like the ones we both have. I will say I picked up my second one for $200 - and it's the DCC/Sound one. My first one, I got for a discount from the dealer I reserved with, and it wasn't completely perfect - had a loose wire and one of the driver springs wasn't in place, but it was an easy fix. Been perfect ever since - they originally came out when 16 years ago? --Randy
There is no question that over the last 20 years HO collecting, and casual railfan modeling has grown in popularity. It is a chicken and egg question with the evolution of these high end RTR products.
But still, I suspect during the time they were offered, Bachmann sold just as many, if not more, USRA Heavy Mountains than BLI has sold Big Boys. And they are still selling those same 2-8-0's..........
And now that they are out of production, those USRA Heavy Mountains are not all that easy to come by. Glad I bought my 10......
I have had to "fine tune" most of the steam locos I own, Bachmann, BLI, matters not. The ones that have needed the least, my two Proto 2-8-8-2's and two 0-8-0's.
Again, I just think BLI misses a lot of sales because of the choices they have made.
I would have bought a B&O Pacific if the headlight and trailing truck had been correct, despite all the other inaccuracies of that model.
I think I will be picking up a few Bachmann USRA Pacifics and Mikados soon.
I model C&O, but I'm not interested in the monster 2-10-4, even with my 36" radius curves. The J3a maybe.
I would be interested in a WESTERN MARYLAND Challenger, don't guess we will ever see that in non brass......
For years I bought Bachmann DCC onboard locos that came with the dummy plug and instructions for removing the decoder - the decoders sold rather well on Ebay.....
Again, as this hobby evolves I'm glad I have most of what I want.
gmpullman rrinker As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. Part of that may have to do with the cooperation they get from the PRRT&HS for locomotive details and paint specifications, etc. Similarly, Rapido is working closely with the New Haven Historical Society. It makes the research part of the job go much easier and If I'm not mistaken, the New Haven fellows put some of their own cash on the line to get models produced. Broadway got into the business at the beginning of DCC and had several trial baloons for "Stealth" and Blue-Line runs so I'm sure their accountant knows where the return on investment lies. They may not publicize their wiring diagrams but I have seen replies from their tech people where they have provided the pin-out of some of their decoders. I haven't had any problems ringing out their wire assignments. Admittedly, their smoke unit is something I have no use for and there sure is a lot of extra wiring going to that but it seems to be related to the "chuff synchronization" that drives the sub-miniature blower. Try going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen. richhotrain Fear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it. Thanks, Rich Cheers, Ed
rrinker As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes.
richhotrain Fear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it.
I would not disagree with any of that.
Broadway worked to create and strengthen that part of the market, and that is what they are known for. My "feeling" is that they believe deeply in sound, and the "casual collecting", or RTR side of the hobby and see that as their main customer base.
I think at this point, and likely for a while, people not interested in sound have just ignored BLI.
And people seriously modeling roads other than the few they have focused in on also just ignore them.
And that is OK.
Bachmann made a two decade business out of catering to C&O modelers as much as possible, as well as other East Coast and Mid Western "lessor roads". They seem to have slowed down on the better offerings now, but the recent USRA Mike and Pacific do carry forward the legacy of Lee Riley to some degree.
Three of my seven Broadway pieces are "stealth" or BlueLine, so someone did buy them. I don't see Ebay flooded with them.....
Having some brackground in this business, my feeling from the beginning was that BLI has been straped for cash more of the time than not.
I think that has played a big role in their product selection and pricing/marketing choices.
I just think they could have been even more successful by understanding ALL of the market better. I could be wrong.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John and Charles, I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money. In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me. There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed. I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC. I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now. And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question: Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy. They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger. They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b. They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a. Who made more money??????? Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed. Sheldon
Precisely. As I was saying, Im not supporting BLI's choice of not selling DCC ready engines, just stating why they would do such a thing. What you said here is exactly what I was thinking.
And expecting BLI to produce engines of less prominance just isnt likely. Bachmann (a large company that has US, UK, and Chinese branches) gets away with doing it by producing them in large quantities, painting them in all sorts of fantasy schemes, and having prices set to attract more beginner modelers, who likely dont have a prototype chosen. BLI attracts a (somewhat) more experienced modeler base, who demand more realism.
For example, Bachmann's ICRR based 2-8-0 engine sold thousands. They made it in over 15 paint schemes.*
Ive had 8 of those alone at one point. Compare that to the (arguably) far less popular BLI fantasy 2-8-0 (from a modified H10s), which sales are pale in comparison. BLI likely took this, and realized that they will never make as much money making fantasy engines for the prices they charge as much as Bachmann can. Their fanbases/customers are simply different.
Also, Id argue BLI definently has better models than Bachmann. Bachmann engines rarely have bearings, drivers rarely sprung, often have those super orange LEDs(personal preference), need additional weight, have their crappy decoders(doesnt apply to you Im aware), often uses outdated dies and molds, etc. BLI may cost more, but besides the decoders, are otherwise very well built.
But that's personal opinion.
Dont get me wrong, Bachmann engines are cheap and plentiful, and are great candidates for freelancing and customization.
*(ATSF, Sou green, Sou black, WM, B&O, Rock Is, UP, SP, WP,N&W, Maine Cen, BLW, PRR, NYC, Durango & Silv)
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL John and Charles, I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money. In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me. There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed. I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC. I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now. And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question: Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy. They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger. They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b. They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a. Who made more money??????? Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed. Sheldon Precisely. As I was saying, Im not supporting BLI's choice of not selling DCC ready engines, just stating why they would do such a thing. What you said here is exactly what I was thinking. And expecting BLI to produce engines of less prominance just isnt likely. Bachmann (a large company that has US, UK, and Chinese branches) gets away with doing it by producing them in large quantities, painting them in all sorts of fantasy schemes, and having prices set to attract more beginner modelers, who likely dont have a prototype chosen. BLI attracts a (somewhat) more experienced modeler base, who demand more realism. For example, Bachmann's ICRR based 2-8-0 engine sold thousands. They made it in over 15 paint schemes.* Ive had 8 of those alone at one point. Compare that to the (arguably) far less popular BLI fantasy 2-8-0 (from a modified H10s), which sales are pale in comparison. BLI likely took this, and realized that they will never make as much money making fantasy engines for the prices they charge as much as Bachmann can. Their fanbases/customers are simply different. Also, Id argue BLI definently has better models than Bachmann. Bachmann engines rarely have bearings, drivers rarely sprung, often have those super orange LEDs(personal preference), need additional weight, have their crappy decoders(doesnt apply to you Im aware), often uses outdated dies and molds, etc. BLI may cost more, but besides the decoders, are otherwise very well built. But that's personal opinion. Charles *(ATSF, Sou green, Sou black, WM, B&O, Rock Is, UP, SP, WP,N&W, Maine Cen, BLW, PRR, NYC, Durango & Silv)
Charles,
OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there.
While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example.
And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts.
True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy.
And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands.
BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames......
But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models.
Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news.
Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff.
I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light.
Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight.
Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective.
gmpullmanTry going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen.
I got extemely lucky with my 2008 Colorado. Standard shift, crank windows, AM/FM radio. It does have A/C, this is Florida!
It was special ordered as a commercial truck for an auto parts jobber, but they went out of business, so I was able to buy a commercial version of the truck that was supposed to be fleet sale only.
A few points I missed:
Yes, a BLI brass hybrid is a step above anything Bachmann has done. And I would buy one and remove the decoder in a hot New York second. And I might just spring for a C&O J3a.
But by comparison, the Spectrum B&O EM-1 is better than most of the brass ones that have ever been done. And I model the B&O, and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL is a road that logically would have had that kind of power.
Adding weight? My two BLI/PCM Reading T-1's did benefit from some extra weight, more for balance than traction, to fill up the big hole in the smokebox left open for the future smoke unit........
Don't take me wrong on this, most BLI steam is very nice except for these decoder problems you here about. But I don't want DCC and sound, good decoder or bad decoder.
And they are not picking locos I have any need for or interest in for the most part.
I have said this before about BLI, MTH, Atlas, KATO - it does not matter how good they are if they do not make something you want to model.
I am not adjusting my modeling interests around the offerings of a few brands deemed to be "better".
Especially not at a time like this in this hobby when there has been so much exceptional products from most brands in the last 15-20 years.
I remember a time before all these great products, when we were happy to detail an Athearn F7 and get it running smooth, or build a Bowser or Mantua steam loco and add some brass detail parts.
If you have only been in this hobby, or on this planet, for the last 20 years, you are spoiled by these great products. I know locomotive wise, I would never want to go back to pre 1990's.
Again happy to have all this great product, from all the brands.
I would not doubt that Bachmann sold as many or more USRA Mountains than BLI sold Big Boys - but BLI is competing with 6 or 7 others ALSO selling Big Boys. I'd bet the total number of Big Boys sold overall by everyone offering them exceeds the sames of Bachmann's USRA Maountain. And few if any of those Big Bioy purchases have 40"+ radius curves needed to make a Big Boy look remotely close to prototypical. But they all make them with 18" )and sometimes 22") radius as a design minimum. Too many compromises.
The larger scale ones are worse - I recently saay James Wright's review of the Lionel O 3-rail Big Boy. I'm assuming the layout he ran it on was using standard O-31 curves - holy boiler overhang! And then he had it running with full length UP passenger cars (the Lionel model is 4014 of course, so he had a train set up to resemble what 4014 was pulling). Not only did the boiler swing out insanely far (as expected, O-31 curves are 31" DIAMETER, about the same as 15" radius HO!) but the passenger cars were INSIDE the inner rail on curves. OK, some people don't care about that, and hi-rail is a completely different market, but the loco is pretty well detailed and then runs on such tight curves and looks like a true toy. But an HO Big Boy running on 18 or 22" radius curves doesn't look much better. But that doesn't stop anyone, as long as it runs.
What we had when I was a kid wasn;t much better - heck, we even had TYCO railroad locos. And then Santa Fe, NYC, V&T locos. Couple of B&O. It was all Tyco, Life Like, and some AHM models. It's what we could afford.
The hobby is changing whether we like it or not. Twenty years ago, my friends at the time all had layouts with scenery, and one even had a feature article about his layout published in MR.
Now, my friends keep accumulating trains but don't have much--or in some cases any--layout at all. I actually have a layout with very basic desert scenery (cat ate other scenery), and I invite them over to run their trains whenever they feel like it. The one's main layout is O-gauge and all he did is roll out the green mat and plop some nice pre-assembled buildings on it. That is the extent of his scenery.
You would not believe the amount of money I'm seeing the younger guys spending at the train store. In the area where I live, the Lionel stuff is still selling like hotcakes. There is a good following for Lionel. In HO, all the Heritage NS units sold very well--all the store could get their hands on--just sold and sold.
People are coming in and buying the latest greatest thing in diesel, but they also want the big steam power. They just buy whatever they like, so yeah, they're just collectors, but they are the ones spending a lot of money, and way more than me.
I think trying to focus on just one railroad is making me the dinosaur.
PRR8259Now, my friends keep accumulating trains but don't have much--or in some cases any--layout at all.
That's what I consider when I hear of people buying locomotives and never taking them out of the box. Someday in the future when these engines finally get to touch live rail will BLI still be around to honor the warranty or will there be parts to repair them?
How many hot motors or bad decoders are sitting in someone's closet that won't be discovered as faulty for another decade or two?
Regards, Ed
I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives.
As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI.
My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems.
richhotrain I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives. As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI. My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems. Rich
So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside.
I understand you are primarily modeling a multi railroad passenger terminal and that would require a different mix compared to my modeling which only includes three interchanges with roads otger than my ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives. As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI. My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems. Rich So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside. I understand you are primarily modeling a multi railroad passenger terminal and that would require a different mix compared to my modeling which only includes three interchanges with roads otger than my ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Sheldon
Because I am a sucker for steam, I have a peninsula devoted in part to steam, a roundhouse, turntable and coaling tower as part of an engine servicing facility shared by diesel locos.
The steamers pull freight around the perimeter of my layout shared by the diesel powered passenger trains on a double mainline, in part a 4-track mainline to replicate the old C&WI mainline that ran from Dolton IL to Chicago.
Sort of a mixture between simulating the prototype and freelancing to explan the presence of steam. Since all roads led to Chicago (and pretty much still do) in the 1950s and beyond, I felt that I could get away with all of these liberties on my new layout. Certainly not for the purists and rivet counters.
Let me get back to you in another post with my steam roster now that I have totally rationalized my setup.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside.
I hate to take this thread off-topic.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside. I am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon. I hate to take this thread off-topic. Rich
I am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon.
PM or another thread, I am very interested in your operational scheme. As a freelance modeler blending in three prototype roads, my thinking is likely similar.
Sheldon, check your PMs.
I have a BLI NW2 and it derails at one spot that no other engine dose and only going forward. This is a well documented problem with this engine and I dont see an easy fix. The problem is the machining was slightly off and dose not happen with larger radius turnouts or broader curves. Will not buy any more BLI. I have had problems before with other engines but they were all user fixable.
richhotrainI am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon. I hate to take this thread off-topic.
A new thread would be nice. Even though I have not been posting here, I have been following this thread and would probably enjoy your other conversation as well.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Charles, OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there. While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example. And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts. True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy. And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands. BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames...... But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models. Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news. Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff. I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light. Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight. Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective. Sheldon
I do believe bearings and sprung drivers do add to the quality of an engine. I will agree the difference isnt super noticable, and as far as "value" goes, most can do without, but I still prefer an engine with bearings than without.
AFAIK Bachmann has never put any sorts of bearings in their steam engines. The "sprung" drivers has only been ususally a center axle sprung. Which helps...
I will fully agree that Bachmann has made some very smart choices as to which prototype they chose to model. The EM1 and C&O 2-6-6-2 (class?) and the USRA mountains are very good choices, that Im surprised no one else chose to copy.
Other choices not so much. Their Spectrum 2-8-2 painted for Susquehanna was some Chinese variant.
I dont understand, what am I cherry picking exactly? I chose a "fantasy" model from both sides. It is generally agreed upon that Bachmann's 2-8-0 was based on the ICRR (far from a B&O E27, or WM H9), and BLI's 2-8-0 was based on the H10s. That comparison was purely to show how well Bachmann can sell their models than BLI can.
Outdated dies: Bachmanns GS-4 shell was from long back when they bought it from Lionel. You must agree its a tad outdated with mostly molded on details. Their trainset level 0-6-0 that they want to charge $80 market price for is also quite old imo. Many of their diesels, the GP40, SD40, FTA engines, etc. Are also very very old and IMO dont very hold up well.
I also didnt like seeing them changing the MA&PA 4-6-0 FROM having seperately applied details TO having molded on details when they moved them from Spectrum to their standard line.
Im starting to forget what we were even debating about. Back to the topic, I see why BLI does such things, although I dont necessarily agree with their choice to no offer DCC ready versions. However, they seem to be doing just fine with their current offerings. They may not entice people like you, but they have hooked a fanbase of their own, and while Id like to see them diversify their prototypes (with B&O P1, or E27, or heck, even an NJC Camelback!), Im content with them continuing to create the models they are currently making.
Hello John,Forgive me if I have not commented yet on the comments on my post, as I am a bit overwhelmed of how it took off. I have come to realize that I appriciate the smaller steam locomotives as well as the larger ones.I am aware of Rapidos concerns with their smaller steam engines maybe not being able to sell, altough I do hope with time, luck and a few good circumstances to see the rest come into fruition, being the rest of the Canadian steam locomotives on their list.
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Charles, OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there. While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example. And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts. True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy. And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands. BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames...... But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models. Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news. Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff. I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light. Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight. Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective. Sheldon I do believe bearings and sprung drivers do add to the quality of an engine. I will agree the difference isnt super noticable, and as far as "value" goes, most can do without, but I still prefer an engine with bearings than without. AFAIK Bachmann has never put any sorts of bearings in their steam engines. The "sprung" drivers has only been ususally a center axle sprung. Which helps... I will fully agree that Bachmann has made some very smart choices as to which prototype they chose to model. The EM1 and C&O 2-6-6-2 (class?) and the USRA mountains are very good choices, that Im surprised no one else chose to copy. Other choices not so much. Their Spectrum 2-8-2 painted for Susquehanna was some Chinese variant. I dont understand, what am I cherry picking exactly? I chose a "fantasy" model from both sides. It is generally agreed upon that Bachmann's 2-8-0 was based on the ICRR (far from a B&O E27, or WM H9), and BLI's 2-8-0 was based on the H10s. That comparison was purely to show how well Bachmann can sell their models than BLI can. Outdated dies: Bachmanns GS-4 shell was from long back when they bought it from Lionel. You must agree its a tad outdated with mostly molded on details. Their trainset level 0-6-0 that they want to charge $80 market price for is also quite old imo. Many of their diesels, the GP40, SD40, FTA engines, etc. Are also very very old and IMO dont very hold up well. I also didnt like seeing them changing the MA&PA 4-6-0 FROM having seperately applied details TO having molded on details when they moved them from Spectrum to their standard line. Im starting to forget what we were even debating about. Back to the topic, I see why BLI does such things, although I dont necessarily agree with their choice to no offer DCC ready versions. However, they seem to be doing just fine with their current offerings. They may not entice people like you, but they have hooked a fanbase of their own, and while Id like to see them diversify their prototypes (with B&O P1, or E27, or heck, even an NJC Camelback!), Im content with them continuing to create the models they are currently making. Cheers! Charles
Charles, I'm not going to disagree we any of that. Just keep in mind, Bachmann makes products for every segment of the market. Not every Bachmann product is going to satisfy more advanced modelers, they don't expect to. BLI on the other hand clearly claims to be high end, but then they cheap out on the Mike and Pacific to a level lower than Bachmann's somewhat "top of the mid range" product for the same/similar locos.
Personally, because I'm a model builder who will add detail if I want more, tune up a driveline if it can be made better, kit bash one loco into another, my choices are seldom driven by a need for out of the box RTR perfection.
I described above how I have kit bashed/modified 5 of the seven BLI locos I have.
My BLI Hudson is almost 14 years old now. It's got one of the old QSI decoders. I've never had a problem with it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley My BLI Hudson is almost 14 years old now. It's got one of the old QSI decoders. I've never had a problem with it.
I keep meaning to repalce the QSI decoder in my Atlas Trainmaster, but it keeps chugging along, I've never had a problem with it, nor have I ever had issues programming it. It may be a bit out of date with regards to the quality of the sounds, but it does run well and the horn at least sounds correct. And it sounds fine at low volume for home use and also can get REALLY loud to run at club shows in a big venue.
SeeYou190 richhotrain I am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon. I hate to take this thread off-topic. A new thread would be nice. Even though I have not been posting here, I have been following this thread and would probably enjoy your other conversation as well. -Kevin
richhotrain I am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon. I hate to take this thread off-topic.
Or the rationale for my new layout: prototype versus freelance versus combo?
I'd say I have been lucky with my BLI stuff so far. I have a 1st gen Niagara that must be maybe 16 years old or something and it still goes fine, as does everything bar a Blueline A class which has a cracked axle gear. It's a pity but what to do? I hear plenty of flaming this firm and that but IMHO whilst I'd accept lining their owner's pockets - this is capitalism - the modelling world has offered some incredible products over the last 20 years so I'm not moaning. I am grateful in fact.
rrinker I keep meaning to repalce the QSI decoder in my Atlas Trainmaster, but it keeps chugging along, I've never had a problem with it, nor have I ever had issues programming it. It may be a bit out of date with regards to the quality of the sounds, but it does run well and the horn at least sounds correct. And it sounds fine at low volume for home use and also can get REALLY loud to run at club shows in a big venue. --Randy
Mr. Randy, I also have two Atlas Trainmasters factory DCC w/sound, one in PRR #8703 and one in RDG #863. For some unknown reason, I can't remember at this time, I removed the shell of the RDG and the pot metal weights are cracking at different locations (metal rot). So I removed the shell from the PRR one, and no rot anywhere at all. Both engines purchased around 10-9-04 and on the same layout in the same room since then.
There are tiny chunks cracking off both front and rear weights. So the fragments can find their way in to moving parts and on to electricals.
Something you may want to look for in your units.
These two units of mine still sound good.
Back on Topic. As with my BLI, I run them for the first couple of hours and watch the RRamp meter to see if there is going to be a meltdown. Twice I was not watching the meter and then, 'What's that smell?', the Diesel switcher was still running then stopped dead, the top of the hood between the stacks was melting. This happened twice, to the first one then the second one that replaced the first one, to two different locos. I paid the different to my LHS and traded up to a BLI steam I1.Then after once bitten twice shy, at least a year later I got another BLI Diesel switcher at Timonium and that Saturday night it stopped running. Good thing I could get back in free on Sunday. Then all that I had to do is wait for the repaired loco. to come back in the mail from BLI. I still do not trust that Diesel switcher.
Engi1487 Hello John,Forgive me if I have not commented yet on the comments on my post, as I am a bit overwhelmed of how it took off. I have come to realize that I appriciate the smaller steam locomotives as well as the larger ones.I am aware of Rapidos concerns with their smaller steam engines maybe not being able to sell, altough I do hope with time, luck and a few good circumstances to see the rest come into fruition, being the rest of the Canadian steam locomotives on their list.
Hello,
No worries.
Regarding sales and pre-orders: well, we will see. I hope for all the steam fans out there that they do in fact get enough orders.
As for me, well, I like steam power but I'm at a point where I only need a couple steamers for my layout. I'm more interested in the time period that I am able to actually remember, albeit vaguely. I have vague memories of the 1970's and actually seeing Alco Centuries on a precious handful of occasions.
Incorrect. Both NKP and N&W reported that a four unit set of diesels was very expensive, actually more than twice the cost of a new Y-6B. It was only AFTER the labor costs increased dramatically during the 1950's that both roads chose to dieselize. Hirsimaki reports that labor cost doubled on the NKP between 1950 and 1958. That is why the last steam holdouts switched. In 1950 they still thought steam would continue indefinitely.
Also it is fascinating that they later merged two of the last US holdouts together yet didn't make a play for Illinois Central.
rrebell Easy to make a 0-6-0 into a 2-6-0 ect. Just will not match a specific engine but many do not care.
Since I freelance, I absolutely do not care about matching a specific engine, but more that they look "typical" and not easily identifiable to a certain railroad.
I can identify a SANTA FE, SOUTHERN PACIFIC, or PENNSYLVANIA steam locomotive very easily, so models of these prototypes are avoided.
Bachmann and Proto 2000 made a lot of locomotives that are nearly perfect for my needs, but then I decided to go with brass models instead.
PRR8259Incorrect. Both NKP and N&W reported that a four unit set of diesels was very expensive, actually more than twice the cost of a new Y-6B. It was only AFTER the labor costs increased dramatically during the 1950's that both roads chose to dieselize.
Yes, great point. The initial purchase cost of diesel locomotives during the dieselization years was higher than the cost of a steam locomotive.
It took a while for the economic advantages of diesel locomotives to be proven. Once this was established, which took over a decade, the railroads changed over.
A lot of people do not realize how expensive a diesel set of locomotives of similar power was when compared to a Challenger or a Y6-b. On-road reliability of diesels was also a point of concern during dieselization.
Also, the fact that a railroad's own repair shop could fabricate almost any part for their steam locomotives, but almost no parts for a diesel locomotive was another big part of the finiancial question than needed to be worked through.
Eventually diesels won out, but this was not the obvious outcome at the beginning.
The League of Railroad Accountants did not throw a huge party over the new availability of cheap diesels.
Lastspikemike PRR8259 Incorrect. Both NKP and N&W reported that a four unit set of diesels was very expensive, actually more than twice the cost of a new Y-6B. It was only AFTER the labor costs increased dramatically during the 1950's that both roads chose to dieselize. Hirsimaki reports that labor cost doubled on the NKP between 1950 and 1958. That is why the last steam holdouts switched. In 1950 they still thought steam would continue indefinitely. Also it is fascinating that they later merged two of the last US holdouts together yet didn't make a play for Illinois Central. John Of course. Thats why it's so easy and cheap to rebuild and recertify a steam locomotive these days compared to doing the same thing for a Diesel.
PRR8259 Incorrect. Both NKP and N&W reported that a four unit set of diesels was very expensive, actually more than twice the cost of a new Y-6B. It was only AFTER the labor costs increased dramatically during the 1950's that both roads chose to dieselize. Hirsimaki reports that labor cost doubled on the NKP between 1950 and 1958. That is why the last steam holdouts switched. In 1950 they still thought steam would continue indefinitely. Also it is fascinating that they later merged two of the last US holdouts together yet didn't make a play for Illinois Central. John
Of course.
Thats why it's so easy and cheap to rebuild and recertify a steam locomotive these days compared to doing the same thing for a Diesel.
Well, it's not cheap now because there is no economy of scale anymore. There are only a few shops with the tools, and only a few people withthe skills.
There is only one wheel lathe left in North America that can turn an 80" driver. That alone turns that into a massive project.
But in the day, when a long list of railroads had shops full of already amortizied equipment and staffs of skilled people, and paid little markup to outside vendors like GM or ALCO selling diesel parts, the costs of steam construction and maintenance were reasonable.
But labor dynamics changed, diesel reliablity improved, diesels proved their operational advantages, so that picture changed.
Lastspikemike I suspect newer hobbyists with an interest in steam locomotives may not be very concerned about historical accuracy. If you are under 60 it is likely your real life memories of any steam power will be out of place and not true to prototype, not to mention quite vague at this point. The fact that any model steam power is being made new is remarkable enough. The other fact of note is that Diesel power is much cheaper than steam power which is true to prototype.
I suspect newer hobbyists with an interest in steam locomotives may not be very concerned about historical accuracy.
If you are under 60 it is likely your real life memories of any steam power will be out of place and not true to prototype, not to mention quite vague at this point.
The fact that any model steam power is being made new is remarkable enough.
The other fact of note is that Diesel power is much cheaper than steam power which is true to prototype.
This makes a lot of assumptions about people that are not facts in evidence.
I have been at this for 50 years, and worked in the retail side of this hobby for over a decade.
My observation is that people like, buy, collect, build, and run model trains for a long list of complex and varied reasons, and most generalizations about those reasons are false.
There have always been modelers interested in what they see, or have seen in their life times. And there have always been modelers interested in the historical aspect of trains before their time on this earth.
That was true in 1971 when I started working in a hobby shop, it is true now.
A recent survey thread on this forum about what era people model, left present day at the bottom of the list. I know, it is not based on any sound data.
Personally, I have very little interest in the trains of my youth, or the train I see today.
The newest prototype model locomotive I own is an EMD SD9 built in 1954, three years before I was even born.
On my layout I run long trains, so the average freight train is powered by 3-4 diesels, or 1-2 stream locos, depending on the size of the steamers.
So in terms of model locomotives costs, my average diesel train has just as much or more money at the head end as most of my steam trains.
Example:
4 Genesis non DCC F units, about $125 each when I bought them = $500
2 Bachmann 2-8-4's reworked into freelance 2-8-2's at a cost of $150 each including custom parts added = $300
Steam more expensive? not on my railroad.
Alyth Yard--
Your post certainly did not come across as a joke, but more of the somewhat misinformed kind of post that, unfortunately, occurs all too often on train forums.
Go read some good publications on diesel history, like Diesel Era, instead of Morning Sun Books brief photo captions. Diesel Era's writers discuss the steam versus diesel transition very candidly and factually, what diesels worked out well and which ones did not, and why.
Another ill-informed comment was about the accountants:
It was definitely NOT obvious to the accountants on NKP or N&W at the time. The tipping point was about 1955 to 1956. That was when, with dramatically increasing labor costs, the math began to justify the switch from steam to diesel for Nickel Plate Road and N&W. At that time the thinking of "diesels are ok for yard switchers" changed to "well, we will actually save money if we replace the mainline steam".
Laugh all you want; those of us who love history and don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past aren't necessarily laughing with you.
As much as I like Alco diesels, the story of Alco's management and engineering is one of collossal failure. Since I work in engineering for a living, we try not to make the same mistakes they did. Alco is an engineering school project management case study in what NOT to do.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example: 4 Genesis non DCC F units, about $125 each when I bought them = $500 2 Bachmann 2-8-4's reworked into freelance 2-8-2's at a cost of $150 each including custom parts added = $300 Steam more expensive? not on my railroad.
What did you value your time at to rework the steam engines?
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example: 4 Genesis non DCC F units, about $125 each when I bought them = $500 2 Bachmann 2-8-4's reworked into freelance 2-8-2's at a cost of $150 each including custom parts added = $300 Steam more expensive? not on my railroad. What did you value your time at to rework the steam engines?
Nothing because it is a hobby, and my hobby is building model trains and model train layouts, not collecting expensive models build by others.
I did it because it is fun.
Here is picture of one, before it went to the paint shop.
These are based on the idea that LIMA could have built a larger version of the DT&I 800 class Mikado that was very similar to the NKP 2-8-4. I did considerable research into the plausablity of these locos. Considering the size and weight of the GN O-8 and NYC H-10, LIMA could have built a Mike with 69" drivers and nearly as big as the Berksires. so in my little world they did.
I took Bachmann 2-8-4's, replaced the trailing truck with a brass booster Delta from PSC (formerly a Kemtron piece for you old timers like me), made a better drawbar system, and added lots of weight.
I used NKP, PM and C&O versions from Bachmann which have different dome locations and other details, and two of the five I built have long vanderbilt tenders creating three sub classes of locomotives for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
And while we are here, here are shots of a BLI Heavy 2-8-2 reworked with a Bachmann long tender and a Delta trailing truck, also before it went to the paint shop. I did two of these, after I got them to run right.......
The Delta trailing truck is an Athearn part, from their less than successful 4-6-2. But they were happy to sell me some parts......
Good looking locos, Sheldon.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And there have always been modelers interested in the historical aspect of trains before their time on this earth.
And there have always been modelers interested in the historical aspect of trains before their time on this earth.
Right on Sheldon. Although I dont have much access to documented info on prototypes, I try my very best to recreate a time I never got to experience.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL 4 Genesis non DCC F units, about $125 each when I bought them = $500 2 Bachmann 2-8-4's reworked into freelance 2-8-2's at a cost of $150 each including custom parts added = $300 Steam more expensive? not on my railroad.
Good thing you dont like DCC or sound cause then diesels would cost significantly more...
It wasn't "so obvious". In addition to the factors already mentioend, there was the fuel - coal was readily available all along the N&W. Not too many oil wells and refineries. It's one of the reasons they and the C&O went in for experimental stuff like the coal fired turbines like Jawn Henry. When labor costs were low, it wasn;t such a big deal that it took 5 days to fix a steam loco (using 20 workers and on hand material to fabricate whatever was needed) compared to say 2 days and 5 workers using parts bought from the diesel locomotive manufacturer (either stocked at cost or else wait for delivery on order). Not to mention retraining EVERYONE - including the master machinists. Everything a journeyman or apprentice had learned about steam locos - useless on a diesel. Years of training and learning - down the tubes, literally. And a proper service facility? There was an article in Classic Trains I think it was, about the 'standard' service facility GM designed for railroads. Which was effective for nothing but F units. Forget non-EMD locos. Forget switchers, those shoips were tailored to fit F units and service them. Most railroads, especially the early adopters, hedged their bets and bought from 3 or 4 different builders. Both to diversify and to get enough units - even with the costs, diesels were selling like hotcakes and an order to EMD for say 20 ABBA sets might not be delivered for a couple of years. But if you got some EMDs, and some Alco FAs, you could get the total number of units needed in a shorter timeframe.
The accounts at N&W didn't miss anything, they calculated with the same care as anyone, and found that early adoption of the diesel would have cost them more then any operational savings. When certain inpouts to the equation changed, they recalculated and then it went in favor of the diesel.
Lastspikemike If you want to respond constructively to any post of mine please read what I write, not what you think I wrote.
If you want to respond constructively to any post of mine please read what I write, not what you think I wrote.
richhotrain Maybe you think you wrote what you didn't write.
I think the problem has been identified, and that is it in a nutshell.
Lastspikemike richhotrain Lastspikemike If you want to respond constructively to any post of mine please read what I write, not what you think I wrote. Sort of a common refrain from you, don't you think? You write that line to a lot of guys on the forum. Maybe it is you, not them. Maybe you think you wrote what you didn't write. So, quote me and demonstrate your point or just desist.
richhotrain Lastspikemike If you want to respond constructively to any post of mine please read what I write, not what you think I wrote. Sort of a common refrain from you, don't you think? You write that line to a lot of guys on the forum. Maybe it is you, not them. Maybe you think you wrote what you didn't write.
Sort of a common refrain from you, don't you think? You write that line to a lot of guys on the forum. Maybe it is you, not them. Maybe you think you wrote what you didn't write.
So, quote me and demonstrate your point or just desist.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example: 4 Genesis non DCC F units, about $125 each when I bought them = $500 2 Bachmann 2-8-4's reworked into freelance 2-8-2's at a cost of $150 each including custom parts added = $300 Steam more expensive? not on my railroad. What did you value your time at to rework the steam engines? Nothing because it is a hobby, and my hobby is building model trains and model train layouts, not collecting expensive models build by others.
I applaud your efforts, and the locomotives look very good. However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative when trying to claim steam is less expensive on your layout. If you are not putting a value on your time, no doubt you could get some blue box F units for less than $30. They can be made to look very nice, although it takes a lot of effort. Then steam would be more expensive.
Also a Genesis F unit costing $125, even non DCC, is hardly expensive.
Lastspikemike As far as I know, model locomotives are built quite recently. Probably many are under construction right now. The objection to my remark was so far off base it was hard to take seriously. Even at the time, the celebrated transition, it was obvious to railroad accountants that for equivalent motive power Diesel was heavily favoured. Apples to apples gentlemen, apples to apples. Although in the case of Diesel power there really was no comparison. Diesel was just superior, dollar for dollar. Occasionally I find the continuous objections and contradictions of my posts mildly amusing. Every now and again they really crack me up. It is gratifying to have such close attention paid to all of my posts, particularly since they seem to be of no use to anyone. Even the most casually tossed off remark gets the full treatment.
As far as I know, model locomotives are built quite recently. Probably many are under construction right now. The objection to my remark was so far off base it was hard to take seriously. Even at the time, the celebrated transition, it was obvious to railroad accountants that for equivalent motive power Diesel was heavily favoured. Apples to apples gentlemen, apples to apples. Although in the case of Diesel power there really was no comparison. Diesel was just superior, dollar for dollar.
Occasionally I find the continuous objections and contradictions of my posts mildly amusing.
Every now and again they really crack me up.
It is gratifying to have such close attention paid to all of my posts, particularly since they seem to be of no use to anyone.
Even the most casually tossed off remark gets the full treatment.
Lastspikemike rrebell Lastspikemike As far as I know, model locomotives are built quite recently. Probably many are under construction right now. The objection to my remark was so far off base it was hard to take seriously. Even at the time, the celebrated transition, it was obvious to railroad accountants that for equivalent motive power Diesel was heavily favoured. Apples to apples gentlemen, apples to apples. Although in the case of Diesel power there really was no comparison. Diesel was just superior, dollar for dollar. Occasionally I find the continuous objections and contradictions of my posts mildly amusing. Every now and again they really crack me up. It is gratifying to have such close attention paid to all of my posts, particularly since they seem to be of no use to anyone. Even the most casually tossed off remark gets the full treatment. Model locomotives are built quite recently. Proubly many are under construction right now, what dose that mean ? Thank you for asking. Rapido currently offer its Royal Hudson, built quite recently. Retail price is approximately double the price of its F7B, currently shipping. Bachmann fairly recently released a remake of its Russian Decapod at a staggering increase in MSRP from the earlier Spectrum version. Contemporary Bachmann diesels could be had for about 1/3 the cost. Big reason I bought a NIB Spectrum Decapod, unlettered. Prototype was never run by the CPR but it's getting the Black Cat decals nonetheless. Nobody's going to build the real CPR Decapods, rebuilt from the fascinating 0-6-6-0 Rocky Mountain pushers with another 10 or so new builds to that modified design. The Russian Decapod will look absurdly small as a stand in, but I don't care since I like it. Current prices of new prototype steam locomotives range from say CAD$3M to refurbish Hudson 2816 for the CPR (that's a rebuild, not new manufacture) to say US$7M (GBP5M) to build a Pacific (the Tornado as featured on Top Gear in 2013). And yes, that UK locomotive was manufactured in a proper erection shop and is certified for mainline service up to 90 mph. It topped out at 100 mph on test. It can pull a real train from its contemporary era (using contemporary loosely since Tornado is a new and improved design so it's a real new prototype steam locomotive.) New Diesel electrics which will rip the frame out from under either of those cost around, what? US$2M maybe? So, why does BLI persist in fitting its proprietary and supposedly inferior QSI based decoders? Well, one reason may be that by doing so BLI can produce a pretty nice steam locomotive for about 2/3 what Rapido charges and 75% of what Baldwin charges. Now claiming that QSI makes an inferior decoder to the one Bachmann sells you for nearly US$600 is a stretch. Granted Rapido makes a much better choice fitting the Loksound from ESU but charges accordingly. So far, I quite like the now antique QSI decoders fitted to my BLI and Intermountain locomotives. In DC mode it is quite fun to ring the bell or toot the horn. Mind you, I'm just building my DCC layout so maybe I'll uncover the deficiencies in the BLI decoders. Still might buy another used BLI Mike though. Model steam locomotives are getting pricier and consequently rarer by the day. Just like the prototypes.
rrebell Lastspikemike As far as I know, model locomotives are built quite recently. Probably many are under construction right now. The objection to my remark was so far off base it was hard to take seriously. Even at the time, the celebrated transition, it was obvious to railroad accountants that for equivalent motive power Diesel was heavily favoured. Apples to apples gentlemen, apples to apples. Although in the case of Diesel power there really was no comparison. Diesel was just superior, dollar for dollar. Occasionally I find the continuous objections and contradictions of my posts mildly amusing. Every now and again they really crack me up. It is gratifying to have such close attention paid to all of my posts, particularly since they seem to be of no use to anyone. Even the most casually tossed off remark gets the full treatment. Model locomotives are built quite recently. Proubly many are under construction right now, what dose that mean ?
Model locomotives are built quite recently. Proubly many are under construction right now, what dose that mean ?
Thank you for asking.
Rapido currently offer its Royal Hudson, built quite recently. Retail price is approximately double the price of its F7B, currently shipping.
Bachmann fairly recently released a remake of its Russian Decapod at a staggering increase in MSRP from the earlier Spectrum version. Contemporary Bachmann diesels could be had for about 1/3 the cost.
Big reason I bought a NIB Spectrum Decapod, unlettered. Prototype was never run by the CPR but it's getting the Black Cat decals nonetheless. Nobody's going to build the real CPR Decapods, rebuilt from the fascinating 0-6-6-0 Rocky Mountain pushers with another 10 or so new builds to that modified design. The Russian Decapod will look absurdly small as a stand in, but I don't care since I like it.
Current prices of new prototype steam locomotives range from say CAD$3M to refurbish Hudson 2816 for the CPR (that's a rebuild, not new manufacture) to say US$7M (GBP5M) to build a Pacific (the Tornado as featured on Top Gear in 2013). And yes, that UK locomotive was manufactured in a proper erection shop and is certified for mainline service up to 90 mph. It topped out at 100 mph on test. It can pull a real train from its contemporary era (using contemporary loosely since Tornado is a new and improved design so it's a real new prototype steam locomotive.)
New Diesel electrics which will rip the frame out from under either of those cost around, what? US$2M maybe?
So, why does BLI persist in fitting its proprietary and supposedly inferior QSI based decoders? Well, one reason may be that by doing so BLI can produce a pretty nice steam locomotive for about 2/3 what Rapido charges and 75% of what Baldwin charges. Now claiming that QSI makes an inferior decoder to the one Bachmann sells you for nearly US$600 is a stretch. Granted Rapido makes a much better choice fitting the Loksound from ESU but charges accordingly.
So far, I quite like the now antique QSI decoders fitted to my BLI and Intermountain locomotives. In DC mode it is quite fun to ring the bell or toot the horn. Mind you, I'm just building my DCC layout so maybe I'll uncover the deficiencies in the BLI decoders.
Still might buy another used BLI Mike though. Model steam locomotives are getting pricier and consequently rarer by the day. Just like the prototypes.
On the model side, as I pointed out earlier, the average modeler is going to buy two or three diesels to pull a "train" that he might otherwise pull with one large steamer.
Making the cost of "power" per train similar or in favor of the steamer.
Bachmann retail prices mean nothing, at least here in the states, because their dealer/wholesale discounts are bigger making their average street prices relect larger discounts.
The Bachmann 2-8-2 with sound retails for $399, but from the day they came out you could buy them for $200.
The BLI 2-8-2 has a retail of only $369, but are hard to buy for less than $250.
TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330.........
For the life of me, I cannot understand why some modelers feel that the QSI decoder is inferior. Inferior to what? Loksound? You have to understand that back in the day, the QSI was a pretty good sound decoder. I have QSI decoders in a lot of my locos, and they all perform problem free. The newer stuff has taken advantage of technology not yet perfected when QSI was first introduced. But it was a marvel in its time.
n012944 However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative
I look at this differently than you do.
The time I spend building highly detailed resin freight car kits is not an asset spent, but a benefit gained.
Hobby time is something I look forward to, and I get a lot out of. I don't just get a beautiful model, but I relax, my head clears, the real world goes away, and I gain happiness.
Trying to value my time added does not make sense.
I will buy more expensive resin kits partly because they will take more time to build.
I would suggest to subtract the value of my time to bring a Yarmouth kit ($60.00) down to the same cost as an Accurail kit ($15.00).
Alyth Yard-
You wrote above that your two railroads dieselized "early".
What are you smoking???? Or are you only counting diesel switchers, which American railroads started buying in the 1920's?
They (CP and CN) were still running steam AFTER every single class 1 railroad in America was fully dieselized.
That would actually be LATE.
In fact there is good video available of Canadian steam simply because railfans from all over the world went there to record them while they could, because it was too late in America.
And then many of those Canadian locos came to the US to run on tourist lines. Steamtown USA? Well, they may have plenty of stuffed and mounted US locos, even a Big Boy, but the RUNNERS - mostly Canadian steam.
It's hardly reasonable to compare the cost of building a new steam loco TODAY to the cost of a diesel TODAY. Today we have the opposite of the early diesel era - plenty of people trained to build and repair diesel prime movers, not so many trained in the building and maintenance of a steam loco. Real shop skills? There may be more in England, since there seems to be a lot more preserved running steam, but in the US? Steamtown's shops are always overwhelmed with work. So is Strasburg. And UP pretty much only messes with their own fleet of steam locos. Who's going to build one from the ground up here?
And late steam? Among large nations, China probably wins. They were building new steam into the 1980's.
PRR8259They (CP and CN) were still running steam AFTER every single class 1 railroad in America was fully dieselized. That would actually be LATE.
Some people do not like facts and real world truth. Please don't bang your head on this wall too hard John. It hurts after a while.
rrinkerAnd then many of those Canadian locos came to the US to run on tourist lines. Steamtown USA?
I could not make it to Steamtown USA this year as planned... stupid virus. My October trip was cancelled.
Hopefully I will get there sometime soon, and finally see some of that great Canadian steam.
LastspikemikeThere is a more obvious explanation for any widespread misunderstanding of what I write. It is a more probable explanation also.
Personally, I thought it was pretty clear from context that lastspikemike's original discussion involved relative cost of model, not actual, steam. Where this in any way involved transition-era economics ... which is where the next few 'corrective' posts came from ... I'm not certain. But we were then treated to a somewhat revisionist dissertation on why diesels were self-obviously superior to steam power, followed by an amusing comparison of replica steam locomotives to production freight diesel-electric power (even the '90s contretemps about the Chinese replica Hudson establishing the fallacy fairly compellingly, and much of the work product from 5550 backing it up).
Meanwhile, despite valiant efforts to return the thread to its discussion of BLI decoders, the misunderstanding persists. It should be pretty easy to assess the fabrication costs of model steam vs. diesel without any reference to maintenance and service cost of the prototype, resale value for equipment trusts as for NYO&W, perhaps-strategic elimination of key auxiliary and specialized-material production for large locomotives, etc. But that really belongs in its own thread, doesn't it, as there are very few if any structural differences between steam and diesel decoders, and those that might matter could be incorporated 'in silico' at design time for only trivial cost increment in production.
Overmod Lastspikemike There is a more obvious explanation for any widespread misunderstanding of what I write. It is a more probable explanation also. Meanwhile, despite valiant efforts to return the thread to its discussion of BLI decoders, the misunderstanding persists.
Lastspikemike There is a more obvious explanation for any widespread misunderstanding of what I write. It is a more probable explanation also.
Meanwhile, despite valiant efforts to return the thread to its discussion of BLI decoders, the misunderstanding persists.
And ride behind it. Last time I was there, I was the cutoff guy in line for the caboose ride - then the park volunteer controlling the line said "unless you want to sit up in the cupola". Well DUH? Needless to say, I did not wait until the next train.
I also did a ride behind the NKP GP9. With a nice photo runby at the turnaround point.
If you make it next year, let me know, it's been a couple of years since I was last there, and it's only like 2 hours away.
Engi1487 Overmod Lastspikemike There is a more obvious explanation for any widespread misunderstanding of what I write. It is a more probable explanation also. Meanwhile, despite valiant efforts to return the thread to its discussion of BLI decoders, the misunderstanding persists. Hey Overmod, thanks for mentioning that. I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic. I dont even know what is being talked about in regards to steam locomotive equipment. Hope you got my PM asking about the N&W Class As.
Hey Overmod, thanks for mentioning that. I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic. I dont even know what is being talked about in regards to steam locomotive equipment. Hope you got my PM asking about the N&W Class As.
Well I think it was answered within the first page. BLI uses a proprietary decoder because they can. Their business decision, for whatever exact reason, was that developing their own was a better option than using an existing one. At the time they quit using QSI, there weren't many options. Soundtraxx was way late with Tsunami - from the time they annouces untilt hey actually delivered, ESU for example went through 3 revisions of their sound decoders. At the time of the initial announcement, Tsunami features were light years beyond anyone else's - but by the time they were delivered, they had already been surpassed. TCS was not yet making sound decoders. So the powers that be at BLI decided to make their own, with the features they wanted.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example: 4 Genesis non DCC F units, about $125 each when I bought them = $500 2 Bachmann 2-8-4's reworked into freelance 2-8-2's at a cost of $150 each including custom parts added = $300 Steam more expensive? not on my railroad. What did you value your time at to rework the steam engines? Nothing because it is a hobby, and my hobby is building model trains and model train layouts, not collecting expensive models build by others. I applaud your efforts, and the locomotives look very good. However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative when trying to claim steam is less expensive on your layout. If you are not putting a value on your time, no doubt you could get some blue box F units for less than $30. They can be made to look very nice, although it takes a lot of effort. Then steam would be more expensive. Also a Genesis F unit costing $125, even non DCC, is hardly expensive.
First not every steam loco on my layout was a kit bashing project, many are more or less stock.
Second, those non DCC Genesis F units for $125 were purchased about the same time as the $150 steam loco kit bashing project. At that time, the DC versions of the Bachmann 2-8-4 sold for about $120, plus the parts for the project. That was all about 6-7 years ago.
Engi1487 Hey Overmod, thanks for mentioning that. I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic. I dont even know what is being talked about in regards to steam locomotive equipment.
Hey Overmod, thanks for mentioning that. I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic. I dont even know what is being talked about in regards to steam locomotive equipment.
Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330......... Sheldon NOW you tell me? What are the equivalent diesels going for there?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330......... Sheldon
NOW you tell me? What are the equivalent diesels going for there?
In model form or prototype, you can't compare a single EMD F7 to any but the smallest steam.
To do the job of a any medium sized mainline steam loco you are going to need two or three of those EMD F units.
So, Athearn Genesis F unit AB sets with DCC and sound are $600 retail and sell for $476 at Trainworld.
That's more than the decapod, it is even more than two Bachmann Mikado's with sound which I can buy for $200 each.
So double headed Bachmann Mikado's would cost me $400, Double headed Broadway Mikados would be $500 and a set of ABA Genesis F units would be $740.
Again, I run long trains, my average train has 3-4 diesels, or one large steamer, or two medium steam locos. In nearly every case there is more money in front of every diesel train than there is in front of my steam trains.
And I'm a very good shopper........
rrebell Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330......... Sheldon NOW you tell me? What are the equivalent diesels going for there? I bought an S4 DCC and sound for under $60. GP7 under $90, GP30's and 38's under $100.
I bought an S4 DCC and sound for under $60. GP7 under $90, GP30's and 38's under $100.
Depends a lot on the brand, the detail level and features, steam or diesel.
Sheldon,Just for the heck of it, I looked up wheel lathes and (believe it or not) there is more than just one shop capable of turning 80" drivers. Sure, there's Strasburg (where UP sent their Big Boy wheels), but there's also Tennessee Valley RR (they have a 90" machine) and Steamtown (which I've seen personally).
Paul3 Sheldon,Just for the heck of it, I looked up wheel lathes and (believe it or not) there is more than just one shop capable of turning 80" drivers. Sure, there's Strasburg (where UP sent their Big Boy wheels), but there's also Tennessee Valley RR (they have a 90" machine) and Steamtown (which I've seen personally).
That's good to know, I think at the time I heard that, those other machines were not in running order and it was not assured they would be repaired. That was some years ago.
A friend of a friend, now retired, worked in the shop at Strasburg and was head of the Thomas project, we got the deluxe off the books tour.
I believe he did use the phrase "only current working" "of this size" when discussing the wheel lathe.
Again, that is great news for steam preservation.
I was a Strasburg today, taking some of the grandkids on the Santa Train.
#90 is out of the shop, recertified, and pulling the largest possible consist their siding will hold, including READING business car #10.
I need to get down and get a ride in #10. I've been in pretty much every other type of car they run, and did a walkthrough of #10 a few years ago, but nnever got to ride in it. Even got to ride the motor car - I did the full pass one time and took a few rides, did the shop tour, and then I saw they posted a notice that the last run of the day was going to be on the motor car so I made sure to be in line early.
We now have Reading business car #15 at the museum.
Engi1487I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic.
Ha Ha my thread on layout builidng turned into a hockey thread.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy Engi1487 I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic. Ha Ha my thread on layout builidng turned into a hockey thread.
Engi1487 I am a bit overwhelmed as my discussion thread kinda got off topic.
I often think that there is no such thing as "off topic" with discussion threads on a forum where everything is fair game. If there is such a thing as off topic, then most threads on this forum eventually go off topic.
That is because the off topic threads like the diner one feel like someone is guiding them and this one in particular can be silly, just not me. They also don't have a natural conversation way of changing subjects. When people talk they tend to beat out a subject and gradually move on when an impass or resolution has been reached, just my feeling
rrinkerIf you make it next year, let me know, it's been a couple of years since I was last there, and it's only like 2 hours away.
I surely will.
I am very upset that my October trip was scrapped this year. I wanted to start at Timonium and meet Sheldon and others, go on Strasburg and Steam Town, then drive to Maine, and finally pop over to Ohio and meet Ed.
I have met many people from the forum face-to-face, and it has always been nice to see them.
All was lost, but hopefully I can do it in 2021.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330......... Sheldon NOW you tell me? What are the equivalent diesels going for there? In model form or prototype, you can't compare a single EMD F7 to any but the smallest steam. To do the job of a any medium sized mainline steam loco you are going to need two or three of those EMD F units. So, Athearn Genesis F unit AB sets with DCC and sound are $600 retail and sell for $476 at Trainworld. That's more than the decapod, it is even more than two Bachmann Mikado's with sound which I can buy for $200 each. So double headed Bachmann Mikado's would cost me $400, Double headed Broadway Mikados would be $500 and a set of ABA Genesis F units would be $740. Again, I run long trains, my average train has 3-4 diesels, or one large steamer, or two medium steam locos. In nearly every case there is more money in front of every diesel train than there is in front of my steam trains. And I'm a very good shopper........ Sheldon
Internet Hobbies is selling an AB set of Broadway Limited PRR F7's for $319.99. Using their Cyber Monday code this morning, I was able to get a set for $224.00. Of course, since it is Broadway Limited, it also comes with DCC and sound.
Lombard Hobbies has C&O and Frisco Athearn Genesis F units on sale for $369.99 for an AB set.
SeeYou190 rrinker If you make it next year, let me know, it's been a couple of years since I was last there, and it's only like 2 hours away. I surely will. I am very upset that my October trip was scrapped this year. I wanted to start at Timonium and meet Sheldon and others, go on Strasburg and Steam Town, then drive to Maine, and finally pop over to Ohio and meet Ed. I have met many people from the forum face-to-face, and it has always been nice to see them. All was lost, but hopefully I can do it in 2021. -Kevin
rrinker If you make it next year, let me know, it's been a couple of years since I was last there, and it's only like 2 hours away.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330......... Sheldon NOW you tell me? What are the equivalent diesels going for there? In model form or prototype, you can't compare a single EMD F7 to any but the smallest steam. To do the job of a any medium sized mainline steam loco you are going to need two or three of those EMD F units. So, Athearn Genesis F unit AB sets with DCC and sound are $600 retail and sell for $476 at Trainworld. That's more than the decapod, it is even more than two Bachmann Mikado's with sound which I can buy for $200 each. So double headed Bachmann Mikado's would cost me $400, Double headed Broadway Mikados would be $500 and a set of ABA Genesis F units would be $740. Again, I run long trains, my average train has 3-4 diesels, or one large steamer, or two medium steam locos. In nearly every case there is more money in front of every diesel train than there is in front of my steam trains. And I'm a very good shopper........ Sheldon Internet Hobbies is selling an AB set of Broadway Limited PRR F7's for $319.99. Using their Cyber Monday code this morning, I was able to get a set for $224.00. Of course, since it is Broadway Limited, it also comes with DCC and sound. Lombard Hobbies has C&O and Frisco Athearn Genesis F units on sale for $369.99 for an AB set.
All the locos in the example above are DCC w/sound, even though I don't use DCC or sound.
DCC or not, Broadway diesels are not generally up to my detail standards. They are better detailed than stuff like Bachmann, but not Genesis or Intermountain quality of detail.
There will always be "deals", but often they are outliers.
SeeYou190 n012944 However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative I look at this differently than you do. The time I spend building highly detailed resin freight car kits is not an asset spent, but a benefit gained. Hobby time is something I look forward to, and I get a lot out of. I don't just get a beautiful model, but I relax, my head clears, the real world goes away, and I gain happiness. Trying to value my time added does not make sense. I will buy more expensive resin kits partly because they will take more time to build. I would suggest to subtract the value of my time to bring a Yarmouth kit ($60.00) down to the same cost as an Accurail kit ($15.00). -Kevin
I get this, however I look at it as there is only 24 hours in day. 6 hours are gone for sleep, 9 hours gone for my main job plus back and forth commute. Owning two buisnesses takes around another 4 hours out of the day. That leaves 5 hours to be around the family, and do any hobby stuff that I have, be it racing at the track, or working and or running my models.
If I am able to get a set of Broadway Limited F units for $100 dollars more than a set of Walthers F units and save myself 5 hours of detailing to make them look just as good, I will. And if that makes me "an expensive model collector" vs a model builder, as Sheldon described it, so be it.
Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrainWorld has those $579 retail Bachmann Decapods for $330......... Sheldon NOW you tell me? What are the equivalent diesels going for there? In model form or prototype, you can't compare a single EMD F7 to any but the smallest steam. To do the job of a any medium sized mainline steam loco you are going to need two or three of those EMD F units. So, Athearn Genesis F unit AB sets with DCC and sound are $600 retail and sell for $476 at Trainworld. That's more than the decapod, it is even more than two Bachmann Mikado's with sound which I can buy for $200 each. So double headed Bachmann Mikado's would cost me $400, Double headed Broadway Mikados would be $500 and a set of ABA Genesis F units would be $740. Again, I run long trains, my average train has 3-4 diesels, or one large steamer, or two medium steam locos. In nearly every case there is more money in front of every diesel train than there is in front of my steam trains. And I'm a very good shopper........ Sheldon I like this point very much. Our layout is a mountain area with 1-3% grades. Double heading is required even for steam unless the train is short. My five car brass passenger consist is just doable by my BLI Mikado. The Spectrum Consolidations need to team up. I have not yet tried my late model Bachman Ten Wheeler which is supposed to haul this consist. So, when buying steam power versus diesel power you can save money even on a model railroad, or can you?
I like this point very much. Our layout is a mountain area with 1-3% grades. Double heading is required even for steam unless the train is short. My five car brass passenger consist is just doable by my BLI Mikado. The Spectrum Consolidations need to team up. I have not yet tried my late model Bachman Ten Wheeler which is supposed to haul this consist.
So, when buying steam power versus diesel power you can save money even on a model railroad, or can you?
It depends, but I look at the cost of locomotives in those terms, what does it cost to power a train, not at the cost of each powered unit.
Even my best deals on DC diesels years ago put $200-$300 at the head end of 4 unit lashups.
My most expensive large steam, like a Broadway 2-6-6-4, or Rivarossi 4-6-6-6 were purchased for $300 or less and one of those locos can handle my max train.
Being DC, and having purchased most of my fleet over the last 20 years, my dollar cost average per powered unit is about $100. Not as easy to do today.
n012944If that makes me "an expensive model collector" vs a model builder, so be it.
I would never make this distinction. I have brass freight cars that cost me as much as a nice locomotive, and I have freight cars reworked from Tyco $1.00 table garbage.
I pick my hobby pleasure from lots of different trees. I do not concern myself with how anyone else would categorize me.
n012944 SeeYou190 n012944 However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative I look at this differently than you do. The time I spend building highly detailed resin freight car kits is not an asset spent, but a benefit gained. Hobby time is something I look forward to, and I get a lot out of. I don't just get a beautiful model, but I relax, my head clears, the real world goes away, and I gain happiness. Trying to value my time added does not make sense. I will buy more expensive resin kits partly because they will take more time to build. I would suggest to subtract the value of my time to bring a Yarmouth kit ($60.00) down to the same cost as an Accurail kit ($15.00). -Kevin I get this, however I look at it as there is only 24 hours in day. 6 hours are gone for sleep, 9 hours gone for my main job plus back and forth commute. Owning two buisnesses takes around another 4 hours out of the day. That leaves 5 hours to be around the family, and do any hobby stuff that I have, be it racing at the track, or working and or running my models. If I am able to get a set of Broadway Limited F units for $100 dollars more than a set of Walthers F units and save myself 5 hours of detailing to make them look just as good, I will. And if that makes me "an expensive model collector" vs a model builder, as Sheldon described it, so be it.
You raised the issue of putting a dollar value on hobby time, I didn't. I buy plenty that is fully detailed and ready to go, so that I can spend my hobby time on the building projects that are most important to me, while still achieving my total detail and quality goals for the layout.
And I was a young workaholic once too. Been self employed most of my life.
I build models because it is fun, and relaxing, and because in general I will not just "settle" for what happens to be "available".
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 SeeYou190 n012944 However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative I look at this differently than you do. The time I spend building highly detailed resin freight car kits is not an asset spent, but a benefit gained. Hobby time is something I look forward to, and I get a lot out of. I don't just get a beautiful model, but I relax, my head clears, the real world goes away, and I gain happiness. Trying to value my time added does not make sense. I will buy more expensive resin kits partly because they will take more time to build. I would suggest to subtract the value of my time to bring a Yarmouth kit ($60.00) down to the same cost as an Accurail kit ($15.00). -Kevin I get this, however I look at it as there is only 24 hours in day. 6 hours are gone for sleep, 9 hours gone for my main job plus back and forth commute. Owning two buisnesses takes around another 4 hours out of the day. That leaves 5 hours to be around the family, and do any hobby stuff that I have, be it racing at the track, or working and or running my models. If I am able to get a set of Broadway Limited F units for $100 dollars more than a set of Walthers F units and save myself 5 hours of detailing to make them look just as good, I will. And if that makes me "an expensive model collector" vs a model builder, as Sheldon described it, so be it. You raised the issue of putting a dollar value on hobby time, I didn't.
You raised the issue of putting a dollar value on hobby time, I didn't.
I never said you did. However you made the "expensive model collector", comment long before I asked about a dollar value for time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I build models because it is fun, and relaxing, and because in general I will not just "settle" for what happens to be "available". Sheldon
And again, that is great for you. Just don't call someone an "expensive model collector" because they do the hobby different than you do. One thing that is great about this hobby is there are many ways to enjoy it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Broadway diesels are not generally up to my detail standards. They are better detailed than stuff like Bachmann, but not Genesis or Intermountain quality of detail. Sheldon
I don't see it that way. Looking at F units, the Broadway and Genesis units are neck and neck. I have F7's from each builer, and each have their issues. The Genesis coming with the "wonderful" plastic couplers, the Broadway lacking rear MU hoses. Other than that, they are pretty close. The Intermountain F unit is nowhere near to the other two's level of detail. I would equate it to a Stewart F unit of the 90's, OK for its time, but out dated. I prefer the WalthersPROTO F unit over the Intermountain.
n012944 Internet Hobbies is selling an AB set of Broadway Limited PRR F7's for $319.99. Using their Cyber Monday code this morning, I was able to get a set for $224.00. Of course, since it is Broadway Limited, it also comes with DCC and sound. Lombard Hobbies has C&O and Frisco Athearn Genesis F units on sale for $369.99 for an AB set.
Are you sure this place is legit? With a 30% coupon for cyber monday, most of thier items are far below market price. On google and yelp, theres like 20 reviews, with an average of 1.2 stars. Many people are saying its a scam, and if you google maps the location, its near a hospital, and its a picture of an old suburban home and/or a weedy patch of trees, depending on which address you trust.
Also, they have stock of many long gone items.
n012944 Looking at F units, the Broadway and Genesis units are neck and neck. I have F7's from each builer, and each have their issues. The Genesis coming with the "wonderful" plastic couplers, the Broadway lacking rear MU hoses. Other than that, they are pretty close. The Intermountain F unit is nowhere near to the other two's level of detail. I would equate it to a Stewart F unit of the 90's, OK for its time, but out dated. I prefer the WalthersPROTO F unit over the Intermountain.
Looking at F units, the Broadway and Genesis units are neck and neck. I have F7's from each builer, and each have their issues. The Genesis coming with the "wonderful" plastic couplers, the Broadway lacking rear MU hoses. Other than that, they are pretty close. The Intermountain F unit is nowhere near to the other two's level of detail. I would equate it to a Stewart F unit of the 90's, OK for its time, but out dated. I prefer the WalthersPROTO F unit over the Intermountain.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 SeeYou190 n012944 However to not put a value on your time creates a false narrative I look at this differently than you do. The time I spend building highly detailed resin freight car kits is not an asset spent, but a benefit gained. Hobby time is something I look forward to, and I get a lot out of. I don't just get a beautiful model, but I relax, my head clears, the real world goes away, and I gain happiness. Trying to value my time added does not make sense. I will buy more expensive resin kits partly because they will take more time to build. I would suggest to subtract the value of my time to bring a Yarmouth kit ($60.00) down to the same cost as an Accurail kit ($15.00). -Kevin I get this, however I look at it as there is only 24 hours in day. 6 hours are gone for sleep, 9 hours gone for my main job plus back and forth commute. Owning two buisnesses takes around another 4 hours out of the day. That leaves 5 hours to be around the family, and do any hobby stuff that I have, be it racing at the track, or working and or running my models. If I am able to get a set of Broadway Limited F units for $100 dollars more than a set of Walthers F units and save myself 5 hours of detailing to make them look just as good, I will. And if that makes me "an expensive model collector" vs a model builder, as Sheldon described it, so be it. You raised the issue of putting a dollar value on hobby time, I didn't. I never said you did. However you made the "expensive model collector", comment long before I asked about a dollar value for time. ATLANTIC CENTRAL I build models because it is fun, and relaxing, and because in general I will not just "settle" for what happens to be "available". Sheldon And again, that is great for you. Just don't call someone an "expensive model collector" because they do the hobby different than you do. One thing that is great about this hobby is there are many ways to enjoy it.
Not true, my collector comment was in my first response to you.
I stated what I am not, I did not express any judgment about that regarding others, just to imply it does not interest me. You implied more so you could be offended.
I have since explained my position, relating to Mikes original comments about locomotive cost, rather clearly I think. Mike understood after several examples.
I don't know you, I don't have any beef with you, you tried to dissect my example because I used a loco I had modified. I explained that many of my locos are not modified, or not to that extent, still you are relentless.
Yes, I don't use DCC at home, but have logged hundreds of DCC hours on other layouts. Yes, I don't like onboard sound, I build HiFi speakers as another hobby. Onboard sound in HO sounds like a nine transistor radio to me. Don't be offended if you like sound, I won't think less of you.
Yes, I think Broadway has missed a lot of business by not selling DC versions (DCC ready).
Yes, I'm not interested in buying a random collection of large famous locomotives from different railroads all over the country, and I don't model the PRR, UP, ATSF, etc so most of what Broadway offers is if no interest for that reason as well.
Does any of that mean I think less of others with different goals or tastes in this hobby? No.
richhotrain n012944 Looking at F units, the Broadway and Genesis units are neck and neck. I have F7's from each builer, and each have their issues. The Genesis coming with the "wonderful" plastic couplers, the Broadway lacking rear MU hoses. Other than that, they are pretty close. The Intermountain F unit is nowhere near to the other two's level of detail. I would equate it to a Stewart F unit of the 90's, OK for its time, but out dated. I prefer the WalthersPROTO F unit over the Intermountain. I would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best. Rich
I would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best.
Yes, no question for me as well.
richhotrainI would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best.
Sure wish they could figure out a way to illuminate the numberboards, though
gmpullman richhotrain I would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best. Sure wish they could figure out a way to illuminate the numberboards, though Regards, Ed
richhotrain I would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best.
Applying economic theory to a hobby is plainly foolish.
My time and money spent on my hobbies are an investment in pleasure and sanity. That is the only economy that applies.
How the heck did opportunity cost enter this discussion?
Opportunity cost is the comparison of one economic choice to another. An example that I like to use is the decision of a retiree to delay the commencement of social security benefits to age 70 in order to receive a higher monthly benefit than that available at an earlier date.
In making that choice to defer the commencement of social security benefits, the retiree must calculate the opportunity cost - - the total amount of foregone monthly benefits before age 70 and the estimated return on such foregone benefits.
There is no opportunity cost associated with time spent on a hobby because there is no alternative economic choice to compare it to.
Sort of reminds me how terminology associated with one endeavor is misapplied to a totally different endeavor. Examples that come readily to mind are The Law of Large Numbers, Critical Mass, and Monte Carlo Analysis.
richhotrain There is no opportunity cost associated with time spent on a hobby because there is no alternative economic choice to compare it to.
Not true at all. For an example, I model the PRR. I will use the F unit as an example. I can get an Intermountain F unit for about $70 less than an Athearn Genesis. The Intermountain lacks certain prototypical details the Genesis comes with, like a train phone antenna and nose lift rings. I can get those parts for $20. It would take me around an hour to put those parts on. I would be better off to stay an extra hour at the railroad, as I can work 9 hours before going HOS, and the OT is always available. Pay the extra $70 for the Genesis, and pocket the difference.
Trainman440 n012944 Internet Hobbies is selling an AB set of Broadway Limited PRR F7's for $319.99. Using their Cyber Monday code this morning, I was able to get a set for $224.00. Of course, since it is Broadway Limited, it also comes with DCC and sound. Lombard Hobbies has C&O and Frisco Athearn Genesis F units on sale for $369.99 for an AB set. Are you sure this place is legit? With a 30% coupon for cyber monday, most of thier items are far below market price. On google and yelp, theres like 20 reviews, with an average of 1.2 stars. Many people are saying its a scam, and if you google maps the location, its near a hospital, and its a picture of an old suburban home and/or a weedy patch of trees, depending on which address you trust. Also, they have stock of many long gone items. Charles
I don't, this is the 1st time I have ordered from them. I use a credit card that has good charge back protection through, so I guess I will find out soon.
n012944 richhotrain There is no opportunity cost associated with time spent on a hobby because there is no alternative economic choice to compare it to. Not true at all. For an example, I model the PRR. I will use the F unit as an example. I can get an Intermountain F unit for about $70 less than an Athearn Genesis. The Intermountain lacks certain prototypical details the Genesis comes with, like a train phone antenna and nose lift rings. I can get those parts for $20. It would take me around an hour to put those parts on. I would be better off to stay an extra hour at the railroad, as I can work 9 hours before going HOS, and the OT is always available. Pay the extra $70 for the Genesis, and pocket the difference.
If you can buy the IM unit for $70 less than the Genesis but have to pay an additional $20 for parts to match the IM unit to the Genesis, the nominal opportunity cost is $50 if you buy the Genesis. It has nothing to do with your work hours versus your hobby hours. You are comparing apples and oranges, so to speak.
At normal viewing distances, all the tiny stuff like lift rings disappear. That's sort of the problem with the P2K FAs - they have SO much detail applied, and it's all pretty well to scale, that it's hard to pick them up. At least with an EMD there isn't yet another door in the middle of the side with handrails and grabs to smash.
I guess I am fussy, but not that fussy - I'll put cab roof drip rails on all my locos because they just look wrong without them. And I'll change hood mounted single note honkers on RS3s to the proper M3RT1 on a bracket - the Athearn I got may be 50/50 (had to buy 2 to get 1 that ran) but at least they had the right sort of horns on them, unlike Atlas.
Note sure on Intermountain's F's - they have all the grabs, lift rings, brake piping, speed recorder, etc that are all left to the modeler on the Stewarts. Plus the come in my road name - Genesis and BLI don't. Genesis doesn't do undec, at least BLI has unpainted ones, but I'm not about to pay BLI proice for a loco where I will remove the decoder and replace it with one that actually works for years. So to round out my F unit fleet, Intermountain is my best choice. Bowser's not doing Reading in their new F units, or the RS3s, and most disappointingly, not int he AS16s. I'll have to scrounge of an old Stewart or two to round out the Baldwin side of my fleet. And find a couple of more Trainmasters. I think once I paint all my RS3s I'll have enough of them - maybe. COuld use a couple more GP7s too, but I either have to renumber some P2Ks since I already have all 4 numbers produced, or find a different one. And not Atlas, the old Atlas ones sell for far too much money for a rather crude model, the P2Ks go for less than half the price.
So in the case of my five freelanced heavy LIMA Mikados, no one makes a model of a DT&I 800 Class Mikado, I don't think they have ever even been done in brass.
I could have scratch built them.
Instead I used another theory, minimum effort modeling.
Using sometimes "average" commercial models as a basis for kit bashing and detail projects, and only adding additonal details as needed for the desired effect.
So I obtained at reasonable cost, and reasonable effort, something other wise unobtainable, and enjoyed myself while doing it.
rrinker At normal viewing distances, all the tiny stuff like lift rings disappear.
What's the definition of normal viewing distances? Modular display layout at a train show which has a rope barrier to keep little hands from reaching in? Or an eye level home shelf layout?
rrinker At normal viewing distances, all the tiny stuff like lift rings disappear. That's sort of the problem with the P2K FAs - they have SO much detail applied, and it's all pretty well to scale, that it's hard to pick them up. At least with an EMD there isn't yet another door in the middle of the side with handrails and grabs to smash. I guess I am fussy, but not that fussy - I'll put cab roof drip rails on all my locos because they just look wrong without them. And I'll change hood mounted single note honkers on RS3s to the proper M3RT1 on a bracket - the Athearn I got may be 50/50 (had to buy 2 to get 1 that ran) but at least they had the right sort of horns on them, unlike Atlas. Note sure on Intermountain's F's - they have all the grabs, lift rings, brake piping, speed recorder, etc that are all left to the modeler on the Stewarts. Plus the come in my road name - Genesis and BLI don't. Genesis doesn't do undec, at least BLI has unpainted ones, but I'm not about to pay BLI proice for a loco where I will remove the decoder and replace it with one that actually works for years. So to round out my F unit fleet, Intermountain is my best choice. Bowser's not doing Reading in their new F units, or the RS3s, and most disappointingly, not int he AS16s. I'll have to scrounge of an old Stewart or two to round out the Baldwin side of my fleet. And find a couple of more Trainmasters. I think once I paint all my RS3s I'll have enough of them - maybe. COuld use a couple more GP7s too, but I either have to renumber some P2Ks since I already have all 4 numbers produced, or find a different one. And not Atlas, the old Atlas ones sell for far too much money for a rather crude model, the P2Ks go for less than half the price. --Randy
Exactly.
I have some Genesis F's from back when you could buy the drives and the Highliner kits. You can still buy the body kits from Highliner, and put them on whatever drive.
But, that is a recent developement, it took them a while to get going again.
I wanted undecorated FP7's, Intermountain was the best choice.
My Intermountain B&O F3's are very nice, and very well detailed.
So are my set of Proto F7's in C&O.
But the Proto F unit undecorated only comes with the modernized shell with a snow plow pilot. No good for my 1954 era. And I'm not wild about the slower gearing.
My big dislike of the Broadway F is the diaphragms that are part of the body.
maxman rrinker At normal viewing distances, all the tiny stuff like lift rings disappear. What's the definition of normal viewing distances? Modular display layout at a train show which has a rope barrier to keep little hands from reaching in? Or an eye level home shelf layout?
For me, three feet, or 261 scale feet.......
Because I am interested in modeling more than just standing trackside.
I tried the eye level shelf thing as part of my double deck layout. No thanks.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI wanted undecorated FP7's, Intermountain was the best choice.
I had no idea Intermountain ever made an undecorated FP7.
How long ago was this?
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I wanted undecorated FP7's, Intermountain was the best choice. I had no idea Intermountain ever made an undecorated FP7. How long ago was this? -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I wanted undecorated FP7's, Intermountain was the best choice.
I want to say I bought them 8-10 years ago? I don't think the undecorated kits were available when the FP's first came out from them. It might have been when they did a second run.
richhotrain gmpullman richhotrain I would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best. Sure wish they could figure out a way to illuminate the numberboards, though That never bothered me, but the numberboards are right next to the headlight on the F7. Isn't there some way to easily get those numberboards lit?
gmpullman richhotrain I would vote hands down for the Genesis F7 as the best of the best. Sure wish they could figure out a way to illuminate the numberboards, though
That never bothered me, but the numberboards are right next to the headlight on the F7. Isn't there some way to easily get those numberboards lit?
The IM website shows undecorated F7Ps. But the status reads Contact Your Dealer which means that IM does not currently stock them. So, good luck trying to find them.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I wanted undecorated FP7's, Intermountain was the best choice. I had no idea Intermountain ever made an undecorated FP7. How long ago was this? -Kevin I want to say I bought them 8-10 years ago? I don't think the undecorated kits were available when the FP's first came out from them. It might have been when they did a second run. Sheldon
I should have mentioned, the Highliners web site currently lists a limited supply of Athearn Genesis Highliner FP7 kits.
https://highlinersonline.com/
Intermountain will likely sell you just the drives if they have any left. Despite how they are decribed on the web site, the drives are actually packaged separately from the shell kits.
They still list them on their site. They were kits, not RTR. HO Locomotive Kits (intermountain-railway.com)
Just says contact your dealer, meaning they don't have any, but some dealer might have an unsold one or two laying around somewhere.
Well, gentleman - for the most part I think we have exhausted the original topic about BLI decoders and have strayed into a variety of off-topics; some interesting but perhaps better suited for separate threads. With that being the case, please feel free to start subsequent threads if you think a particular topic or topics is worth further discussion. In the meantime, regard this thread as full and sated.
Thanks for your understanding...
Tom