I prefer a pin vise with a swivel head. Remember to oil the hole to keep the tap from jamming and/or breaking. Work slowly, turning the tap forward and backward. The backward motion pulls the cut material out of the hole.
https://www.micromark.com/Swivel-Hd-Pin-Vise-0-1-8
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
That is a great idea I will do that with taps that have a round shaft. Thanks for the suggestion.
Ron High
Ron High, Yes I vote for that pin vise also.
If you have any taps without the much liked square section at the top of the shaft heres what you can do.
I have a 1'' belt sander and this is all eye ball mostly and a little micrometer/calliper work to check squareness. Take the tap and LIGHTLY sand the round shaft to a square at the end, keep dipping the end in water to cool it (I held the tap in my fingers to feel the warmth, warm is ok, hot is not, YOU DO NOT WANT HOT). With my little round shaft taps 00-90 0-80, I just sanded four flats (just remove a little of the roundness) on the upper 1/4'' of the round shaft. No more round shaft spinning in the pin vise's four jaw chuck.
If your pin vise only has three jaws, well then only sand three flats on the round shaft.
SeeYou190 Overmod To add a tiny note What he is talking about fabricating is a plunge type depth gauge.
Overmod To add a tiny note
What he is talking about fabricating is a plunge type depth gauge.
I used to have several plunge gauges one was a pin gauge and made by Starret. Probably others made them as well.
I think this type of Pin Vise is easier to use.
I find the tap with a square section at the top of the shaft is better the section of the square shaft wont slip in the chuck. Taps without this feature really need to have the chuck tightened down with pliers and or a wrench so the don't slip.
look at the photo in this link to see what I am talking about.
https://www.micromark.com/Tap-Drill_3?tapsanddies=42
Don't forget about using oil in metal tapping and after a couple turns reverse and turn the out to clear the cut material out of the tap flutes.
Overmod PC101 Take a brass tube, .062'' OD diam., .032'' ID diam. x 1-5/8'' long, now slide a very slightly bent (this bend will cause drag) brass rod .032'' OD diam. x 2-3/8'' long inside that tubeing, bent a 90* at one end of the rod and add a little eye on the end and thats it. To add a tiny note, I'd recommend that you sharpen the business end of the rod, so any scurf or taper at the bottom of the hole doesn't throw the reading off, and then read distance on top of a mirror so you get a clear indication of length without parallax (you will notice that good meters feature this approach). You can rotate the rod slightly with the 'L-bend' lever at the top to ensure clean bottoming or to loosen any chips that have not been dislodged fully or cleaned out of the bore after tapping.
PC101 Take a brass tube, .062'' OD diam., .032'' ID diam. x 1-5/8'' long, now slide a very slightly bent (this bend will cause drag) brass rod .032'' OD diam. x 2-3/8'' long inside that tubeing, bent a 90* at one end of the rod and add a little eye on the end and thats it.
To add a tiny note, I'd recommend that you sharpen the business end of the rod, so any scurf or taper at the bottom of the hole doesn't throw the reading off, and then read distance on top of a mirror so you get a clear indication of length without parallax (you will notice that good meters feature this approach). You can rotate the rod slightly with the 'L-bend' lever at the top to ensure clean bottoming or to loosen any chips that have not been dislodged fully or cleaned out of the bore after tapping.
Nope, no need to have a sharp point on the business end of the .032'' ROD. With the ROD's business end being flat I can 'feel' the bottom of the hole right up to the sides of the hole better then with a point on the end. I will 'feel' with my fingers and see with my eyes (well, one eye at this time anyway) if the hole has a taper (the center of the hole being the lowest and taper up to the sides) also 'feel' any chips. I also have a modified 'Bore Light' to light up the bottom of tiny holes.
As with rotating the ROD with the 'L-bend' at the top, nope again. It is much easier for me to rotate the TUBE and ROD together between my fingers to 'feel' the bottom and loosen any chips. I have never tried the mirror trick yet with this 'tool' but I will play around with one and see how it goes. Thanks for that tip.
To measure the protruding ROD (that being the depth of the hole) I just use my Electronic Digital Caliper's (NO HF HERE) inside measuring tips (I am sure there is a technical term for them, but I can not remember it at this time), one tip up against the TUBE's end and the other tip moved out to the flat end of the ROD. I can even see/measure ok down to .021'' of the ROD sticking out of the TUBE.
SeeYou190, on a side note. I have even ever so slightly squeezed the end threads/tip of truck screws and other hard to stay in place screws that get loose and back them selves out (because of a sloppy worn out threaded hole), by using a plyers to destort the threads (flaten them, make dull). This is a one time fix, because now after you install that 'modifed' screw, the female threads have been distorted the whole way down the hole.
I have found altering the TIP of the screw works 100% of the time if you can not redrill and retap for the next size larger screw. You could alter the screw's threads closer to the head and then only distort the first 1/3 of the female threads down the hole.
OvermodTo add a tiny note
What he is talking about fabricating is a plunge type depth gauge. You would not take the reading directly from the gauge because it does not have graduations, you would measure the protruding rod with a ruler or caliper.
This is a similar method to reading telescoping bore gauges.
Parallax is not a factor when reading these measuring devices.
Everything that PC101 posted was good advice, useable, and correct as written. I use a different technique to get a slight interference fit for my truck screws, but it is just different, not better or worse.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
PC101Take a brass tube, .062'' OD diam., .032'' ID diam. x 1-5/8'' long, now slide a very slightly bent (this bend will cause drag) brass rod .032'' OD diam. x 2-3/8'' long inside that tubeing, bent a 90* at one end of the rod and add a little eye on the end and thats it.
I have the perfect way to hold a 2-56 tap. I use a bicycle spoke wrench and I add a little epoxy to hold the tap in place:
Easy to handle.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
kasskabooseHuge thanks to everyone for their help.
No problem, happy to help.
Please note, there are three different types of taps, Taper, Plug, and Bottom.
I would stongly recommend you buy a 2-56 set of all three. Most 2-56 taps sold for hobby use are plug taps.
The taper tap is perfect for through holes. The long tapered portion helps to align the tap with the drilled hole, and it is much easier to get a straight thread. Also, this style cuts the easiest and lasts the longest.
To cut threads in a non-through (blind) hole, start with the Plug Tap, then finish with the Bottom Tap, and you will get useable threading all the way to the bottom of the hole.
There are also two flute "Spiral" taps, but I have found these difficult to control. I have one in 2-56 size that has been useful when tapping in harder materials after starting with a Taper tap, but for most modeling I do not find the Spiral taps to be helpful.
Another thought when taping threads in plastic like bolsters for trucks and for coupler screws. I think some would call these ''Screw Bosses''.
Maybe do not run the tap clean though the plastic hole, leave a little untapped plastic down in the bottom so the screw tip will bite into the untapped plastic and will keep the screw from loosening/backing out. Of course you have to measure the depth of the hole, and the length of the screw to make this work.
How to make a depth measureing tool.
Take a brass tube, .062'' OD diam., .032'' ID diam. x 1-5/8'' long, now slide a very slightly bent (this bend will cause drag) brass rod .032'' OD diam. x 2-3/8'' long inside that tubeing, bent a 90* at one end of the rod and add a little eye on the end and thats it.
Put the TUBE on the face surface and push the ROD down in to the hole till it hits bottom, OR push the ROD down to the bottom of the hole and slide the TUBE down till it hits the face surface, remove and measure the ROD that is sticking out of the TUBE's bottom. Thats how deep the hole is.
With a ''blind hole'', sometimes a ''taper'' tap will not cut threads down deep enough, then you go to a ''Plug'' tap, but if you need threads all the way down in a blind hole then you use a ''Bottom'' tap.
Huge thanks to everyone for their help. I feel much more confident in ensuring my freight cars run flawlessly. Great stuff all!
No problem with my swivel head regular tool. The square head on my 2-56 tap is .106''.
The tool's collet has a 4 jaw chuck and is .140'' ID in the relaxed position (not squeezed down/closed), this is the largest opening, flip the collet with four jaws around and it's ready for a #80 drill bit, the smallest opening with four jaws. This swivel head pin vise came with two collets with both of their ends a different diameter hole, collet #1 largest hole .140'' and smallest .034'', collet #2 is .046'' and .084''.
If I put my small files in a pin vise they would be awkward to use by being to long (file and pinvise OAL) and I would not have good control of the file. If need be, I screw a Blue #14-22 wire nut on the file's handle end to protect the palm of my hand.
Yes, a pin vice will work just fine. Just make sure it's a quality pin vice that will sufficiently bite down onto/grip the OD of the tap. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to use a pin vice and the drill bit or tap just spins when it starts cutting into the material.
As far as the Micro-Mark pin vise you posted the link to, I would avoid the collet-type and go with a 4-jaw type. It will grip the OD of the tap much better, as mentioned earlier.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
On the MM web site, the swivel head #21105 would be my first choice. It shows two double ended collets with four jaws, size 0, 1/16'', 3/32'', 1/8''.
I only bought two at new prices from LHS. The four other ones I have came from auctions and are second hand/used, cheap.
The MM link three replys back/up by kasskaboose I could not move down to here, ''Error, This site would not allow the link''.
kasskabooseProb suffering from analysis paralysis, but looking at suggestions. —— I know micromark sells them but want to see if you suggest any from Amazon.
Was there a problem with the link I provided from Amazon? Two for $8?
Maybe these are too cheap. You did say you wanted inexpensive. I like to buy from MicroMark, too but just the pin vice and shipping comes to
$20.90 before tax.
Same LINK as above.
Regards, Ed
General Tools make a good tap wrench and they are very reasonable. Look for the #163 - it is a nice size for small taps.
Yes, backing out is a wise approach from what I've seen online.
Ron (and anyone else): based on what you wrote, for a 2-56 tap, I can just use a pin vice? Micro mark sells a vice that appears to work, based on what they list for hole dimensions.
https://www.micromark.com/Double-End-Pin-Vise
Ron Highfor the metal a drop of oil a couple of times helps as well as turning the tap out after a few turns to clear it ,then taps some more.
The importance of backing out the tap and clearing the debris from the flutes cannot be overstated.
For 4-40 and smaller I have always used a pin vise for these taps .I have tapped plastic, brass and diecast metal, for the metal a drop of oil a couple of times helps as well as turning the tap out after a few turns to clear it ,then taps some more.
OvermodIn my opinion a tap handle for these small jobs is not only overkill, it acts at the wrong angle 'ergonomically' to preserve the small tools, especially if they are properly hardened for metal-cutting.
This is obviously NOT the opinion of an experienced machinest.
Using the correct tool is always the best approach, and for small threaded holes, an T-handle is one of the correct options. It might seem like overkill to the unnexperienced, but after tapping a few thousand holes, you would see why it is the tool to reach for.
In my opinion a tap handle for these small jobs is not only overkill, it acts at the wrong angle 'ergonomically' to preserve the small tools, especially if they are properly hardened for metal-cutting.
What I'd recommend he look into is one of the 'guide tools' that provides a hard metal sleeve to keep the drill or tap precisely at right angles to the work without bending or misalignment, and help with the right light touch and constant feed that are involved with these jobs. I see these listed as "kits" with the correct clearance-drill and tap included for about $18 -- the point being that using these should dramatically increase the effective life of the tools over 'freehanding' with even the best accurized pin vise.
About 40 or 50 years ago I bought a 13 piece Electricians Drill & Tap set, 4-40 to ¼-20. The taps are still cutting like new, I have only had to replace two bits since I bought the set. The T handle wrench that came in the set is almost worthless. I use a wrench with a quality four finger chuck, also very old.For smaller than 4-40 I buy only the sizes I need such as 2-56 and 2mm individually. I find that a good quality pin vise works the best for #2 and smaller. I only buy high quality smaller taps as they last much longer than cheapos.I have some Hob-Bits 00-90, 0-80 and 1-72 taps that are pushing 25 years old and still cutting like new. A light weight pin vise works the best on the tiny taps, a heavy pin vise with break the tiny drill bits and taps easily with their extra weight.I skimp where I can with tools but with taps you get what you pay for, a cheapie tap doesn’t last very long. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
All I've ever done is what Ed shows - I just use the small taps in a pin vise. The one exception is the tool I have for converting the Athearn snap on (and always falls off when you don't want it to) coupler box to screw on. It's a set from A-Line that includes a device that fits over the center post to align the drill and tap so you get a nicely centered hole - fairly critical in this application since there's not a lot for room for error - ie, busting out the plastic post because you drilled too far to one side.
Granted, I am not tapping holes in metal, but I think I'd save the t-handle tap wrenches for larger than 2-56. That's very nearly the only size I ever tap, mainly for truck mounting, and then generally because the original hole was messed up and I have to fill it and redrill/tap. Most any smaller size I am working with are really small sizes to clean out or make grab iron mounting holes and the like, and those are just drill operations, not tapping.
Like Dave, I always look at the negative reviews of something - if it's overwhelmingling good with a few negatives, I want to see what they say. In many cases, where the positives are in the 85+% range, the negatives are often unrelated, or user error, not an actual product defect, but it pays to check.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
hon30critter Hi kasskaboose, I have purchased literally hundreds of things from Amazon (you're welcome Jeff Bezos) but I always follow one rule. I look at the negative ratings first. It really doesn't matter how many positive ratings there are. Even if there are only a few negative ratings, they will tell you if there are potential problems with the item. In your case, there are several negative ratings for each of the three choices. They all mention that the purchasers had to use wrenches to tighten the chucks sufficiently to hold the taps, and in one case they couldn't tighten the chuck enough to hold smaller taps at all, which is exactly what you need it for. To me, those comments raise a red flag! Why take the chance? A decent quality tap vise should be easy to tighten by hand. Cheers!! Dave
Hi kasskaboose,
I have purchased literally hundreds of things from Amazon (you're welcome Jeff Bezos) but I always follow one rule. I look at the negative ratings first. It really doesn't matter how many positive ratings there are. Even if there are only a few negative ratings, they will tell you if there are potential problems with the item. In your case, there are several negative ratings for each of the three choices. They all mention that the purchasers had to use wrenches to tighten the chucks sufficiently to hold the taps, and in one case they couldn't tighten the chuck enough to hold smaller taps at all, which is exactly what you need it for. To me, those comments raise a red flag! Why take the chance? A decent quality tap vise should be easy to tighten by hand.
Cheers!!
Thanks all for the help! Ed, the pictures are perfect! That is EXACTLY why I came here. Much faster/easier instead of randomly ordering (and likely returning) from Amazon.
I do what Dave mentions when ordering from Amazon. That place as a ton of stuff that should not EVER get purchased! The tap wrenches I found prob should get included.
Ed: Taking the advice of getting a four-jaw tool, I found this one:
https://www.amazon.com/LIEOMO-Double-Ended-Hobby-Jewelry/dp/B06XWCQJSV/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=four+jaw+pin+vice&qid=1604926165&refinements=p_36%3A1253528011&rnid=1243644011&s=hi&sr=1-3
gmpullman Hello, I always seemed to be awkward using the T handle tap wrenches with anything under 1/4-20. For my model railroad-sized taps I much prefer a four-jaw pin vice. Taps_small by Edmund, on Flickr The middle and top one are both Starrett 240Ds, the bottom one a Micro-Mark or otherwise generic double-ender, although it may be a Kadee. Taps_small-a by Edmund, on Flickr A four-jaw will grip the tap securely. I find the torque to be plenty with finger pressure. Any more than that you had better check your tap hole diameter. This One seems to be similar to the double-ended one I have. Just be sure it is a four-jaw. Good Luck, Ed
Hello,
I always seemed to be awkward using the T handle tap wrenches with anything under 1/4-20.
For my model railroad-sized taps I much prefer a four-jaw pin vice.
Taps_small by Edmund, on Flickr
The middle and top one are both Starrett 240Ds, the bottom one a Micro-Mark or otherwise generic double-ender, although it may be a Kadee.
Taps_small-a by Edmund, on Flickr
A four-jaw will grip the tap securely. I find the torque to be plenty with finger pressure. Any more than that you had better check your tap hole diameter.
This One seems to be similar to the double-ended one I have. Just be sure it is a four-jaw.
Good Luck, Ed
I can not even remember when if ever I used a T-handle wrench for tapping HO/N Model Railroad stuff. I have the L S Starrett exactly like the top one and one somewhat like the bottom one in the above picture, but it has the swivel finger head on the one end. I actually have 6 of those pin vise tools (2-GENERAL HARDWARE MANUFACTURING NY., 2-G.F.C., 2-unmarked) each with a different color of paint on the swivel head on my work bench with bits in ready to use. I hate changing bits and chucks. I picked them up at auctions and yard sales. My taps are of the square end type, only one looks to be belt sanded on four sides to make a square ended shaft. Now it will not slip in a four jaw chuck.
My tap sizes are 4-40, 2-56, 1-72, 1-80 and 00-90 with each size tap having matching tap and clear drill bits.
I have removed the tips off of plug taps to make bottoming taps.
Some taps were called ''Gun taps'', the ''cuttings'' go forward through the hole.
I have trouble with the ones that tighten by hand - especially with small diameter taps when tapping in metal. There are taps that have a larger diameter shaft on the chucking end and some even have a square end on the shaft. These are easier to grip.
I have been using a drill chuck with a geared key to hold taps securely.
Mark Vinski
Having said that, I wish I could suggest a decent quality tap handle at a decent price. Unfortunately, the good quality handles like Starrett are in the $50.00 - $70.00 range. All I can suggest is that you buy one with reasonable ratings and if it doesn't work then return it pronto.